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Artemus
01-19-2008, 11:28 AM
Lets assume you aren't a rank beginner newbie at pool and are somewhat set in your style and ways of playing.

Whether you were to use video or no video, what would ALL THE POSSIBILITIES be in your setup and stroke that could cause you to be missing cuts to the left with regularity as a right handed player? (could have chosen any problem but we'll just confine it to the left cut for simplicity and sameness)

List EVERYTHING you think could cause it in your post.

Billy_Bob
01-19-2008, 11:41 AM
I am "right eye dominant" and a right handed player. I have a lot of trouble aiming when shooting left handed unless I get my right eye over the stick.

And I have a friend who is right handed but left eye dominant. He tends to miss shots when he does not have his left eye over his stick.

So are you "seeing" the shots correctly?

Other than that, for practice, some people will practice mostly one thing like cut shots to the right, but will not practice cut shots to the left. Then they get better at cut shots to the right. Might want to practice "progressive" cut shots to the left more to balance things out. (Spend your practice time practicing what you are having trouble with.)

DeadCrab
01-19-2008, 01:26 PM
Not hitting cue ball center, back hand drift, stick jacked-up, and as noted in post above,eye alignment.

Speaking as a novice with cross eye dominance, investing a little time to determine optimal head alignment can pay big dividends.

Hitting off center and some of the other bad stuff should be evident from the standard striped ball stroke drill.

bradb
01-19-2008, 01:57 PM
First thing I would look at is the stance. If you are not coming through straight in the stroke then your body may be aligned wrong to the shot.

For this it would pay to have an instructor or someone knowledgable to look at the stance, for any problems.
-Brad

Qtec
01-19-2008, 03:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Lets assume you aren't a rank beginner newbie at pool and are somewhat set in your style and ways of playing.<hr /></blockquote>

If you want a true appraisal you have to be more precise with your info. Not a rank beginner? What does that mean? How long have you been playing, can you you run two racks with good breaks? etc
If you are set in your ways IMO it would probably do more harm than good treading down the self diagnosis path. I should know, I did it myself before I had any real knowledge about the game. It ruined my game.

It will save you a lot of frustration and heartache if you took some professional advice.

[ QUOTE ]
Whether you were to use video or no video, what would ALL THE POSSIBILITIES be in your setup and stroke that could cause you to be missing cuts to the left with regularity as a right handed player? (could have chosen any problem but we'll just confine it to the left cut for simplicity and sameness)

List EVERYTHING you think could cause it in your post. <hr /></blockquote>

Everything? LOL

There should really be no technical reason to miss cuts on one side more than the other.? [ 1/2 ball?, less than 1/4? ]
A target is a target.


I guess it could be anything but this is particular problem IMO, is commonly a result of incorrect alignment.
You aim differently because you approach the shot incorrectly.

Practice these shots like this.

Set up the shot you want to practice.
Step well back from the table in line with the shot.
SEE the line.
SEE your target.
Imagine yourself playing the shot.
Now play the shot.


Hit your target.

Qtec ......try it

Artemus
01-19-2008, 03:39 PM
Just to clarify something, this isn't a problem of mine and has nothing to do with my game. It's just a general "throw it out there" question. I basically started the thread to illustrate the myriad of things that could be
wrong in one little facet of the game and how all of us analyze the different areas for self diagnosis and correction.

One response might already be the best response, see a pro for a lesson and forget about self diagnosis. But keep throwing the ideas out.

BLACKHEART
01-19-2008, 09:04 PM
I knew a 7 foot basketball player, who spent every day practicing by himself, in his driveway. Every day for 5-6 hours he would practice with one dribble &amp; then dunk the ball. He did it perfectly every time. His 1st game of the year was a disaster. About a dozen times he got the ball, under the basket, bounced it once &amp; had it stripped by players a foot shorter. He bounced it just like he practiced &amp; some short guy just reached out &amp; took it away. You see he practiced a BAD HABIT, so much he was useless. Having someone, who knows a little more than you, watch you play, can be a real help. BUT I wouldn't even attempt to help someone, who is so set in their way, that they won't except helpful advice. With that attatude YOU ARE DOOMED TO FAIL, FOREVER...JER

Artemus
01-20-2008, 07:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
I guess it could be anything but this is particular problem IMO, is commonly a result of incorrect alignment.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

Alignment of what, body or head/eyes or both?

So let's take it a step further. What if a player is frequently UNDERCUTTING the ball to the left. What body, head/eyes, or both adjustment might he/she want to make?

What if a player is frequently OVERCUTTING the ball to the left. What body, head/eyes or both adjustment might he/she try to alter?

Blackheart mentioned "bad habits". What bad habit that slowly crept in might need to be fixed in the alignment phase to correct the overcutting/undercutting problem and what is the solution?

DeadCrab
01-20-2008, 09:03 AM
I'm no instructor, or even a good player, but evaluating the head position - dominant eye thing doesn't really require that you are.

1. You can do one of the many dominant eye tests, but don't put much stock in the results.

2. Take your cue stick, and put it on a table with 1-1/8 inch blocks under it.

3. Have someone hold the end of a string directly over the center of the butt. Hold the other end of the string with it's end about 7-8' past the cue tip. Pull the line taut and directly over the long axis of the cue. Place an object (a screw stood on it's head works well) directly under the stretched line. You now have the cue aligned with a target 7-8' away.

4. Place your chin over the cue joint. Move your head slowly up-down, left-right, until you see the cue as pointing directly at the target. When you find this position, note how high the chin is off the stick, and how far left or right of the cue it is, and whether the head is "cocked" in a particular direction. Repeat a few times, at different distances. This should establish your optimal head position for seeing the cue aligned with a distant target.

5. Set up some shots where the exact target on the OB is known. Shoot using the established optimal head position and see if this helps.

BigRigTom
01-20-2008, 09:38 AM
I can see how this might give some people some insight into what their problem is but if anyone goes to this much trouble I would truly admire their tanacity.

I have trouble getting our less skilled team players in the APA to shoot the same shot several times so they can learn the proper way to make a simple cut shot and achieve an idea where the cue ball might go with various speeds.

I cannot imagine ANY of them doing this exercise... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

On the otherhand I am just the kind of person who would try this if I felt I needed to figure out where I am going wrong when aiming.

There in lys the rub.

The very people who might need to do a specific exercise are the same ones who will whine and complain about the difficulty of the game but do nothing to learn a better way. Those people will probably always be just an average player if they even get to be that good.

Artemus
01-20-2008, 10:38 AM
WOW! I guess that might work but my attention span is about like a gnat to begin with, I could never conduct that kind of experiment. The other thing is, you have cut angles that range from 1 degree to about 90 degrees. Some are easier to see than others. I can't imagine doing that NINETY different times, only to find out that it WASN'T an alignment problem but something else. (and it definitely could be)

But back to alignment issues, what is the SIMPLEST way to see what's causing the overcut/undercut problem that you can try immediately without going through an entire fundamentals overhaul. It's like if a car is missing and just not running properly, you don't need to do a major diagnostic test on everything or engine overhaul if all it needs is one spark plug to be replaced.

DeadCrab
01-20-2008, 11:11 AM
It takes maybe 5 minutes. If your head is in proper position relative to the cue, it will be the same for any angle.

Take your stance with a cue positioned over any straight line (where the cloth meets the rail is a good one). Vary your head position slightly from left to right and see how even minor variances result in your no longer seeing the cue as pointing straight down the line, even though you know it is.

Watch the pros. Different players have different head positions relative to the cue, but for each individual their head position is very constant from shot to shot.

Just a suggestion. Confirming proper head position eliminates one possible cause of shot missing.

Billy_Bob
01-20-2008, 11:26 AM
Another thing is learning how to learn or being at a level of consistency in your playing which will allow you to learn.

This is being able to aim exactly and do this consistently. So you set up a cut shot, then mark the table where the balls are (I use white blackboard chalk on my table), then shoot the same exact shot over and over.

If you are consistently hitting the object ball to the left of the pocket - each time, every time, then it is easy to learn to adjust your aim a little to make the pocket.

BUT if the object ball never goes to the same spot when hitting the shot 5 times in a row (sometimes left of pocket, sometimes right of pocket), then I don't see how the person could learn adjust their aim to make the pocket!

So I think the first thing would be to learn to shoot very accurately and be able to hit the object ball in an exact spot 5 times in a row (and object ball goes to same spot 5 times in a row).

This is a biggie for cue ball speed control with object balls hanging in the pocket (can hit OB anywhere to make pocket). If you can hit the OB in an exact spot, then you will know in advance the speed and the direction the CB will come off the shot, and will then be able to use a correct speed of shot to get the cue ball to stop where you want. If you can't hit the OB in an exact spot, then no telling where the CB will go after the shot or how far it will travel.

Artemus
01-20-2008, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>
If you are consistently hitting the object ball to the left of the pocket - each time, every time, then it is easy to learn to adjust your aim a little to make the pocket.
<hr /></blockquote>

If you have a cut to the left and keep missing the ball to the left of the pocket, that means you're OVERCUTTING it.
WHAT IS THE easy ADJUSTMENT (or adjustments) that you could make in ALIGNMENT to correct the overcut? You mentioned adjusting AIM. What's the difference between AIM and ALIGNMENT?

Same question for an UNDERCUT, missing it to the right.

bradb
01-20-2008, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>

If you have a cut to the left and keep missing the ball to the left of the pocket, that means you're OVERCUTTING it.
WHAT IS THE easy ADJUSTMENT (or adjustments) that you could make in ALIGNMENT to correct the overcut? You mentioned adjusting AIM. What's the difference between AIM and ALIGNMENT?

Same question for an UNDERCUT, missing it to the right. <hr /></blockquote>

If you are doing something wrong consistantly then its your body position to the shot which inturn effects your stroke. So instruction is the best solution here. Taking just one lesson on proper stance would be affordable and do a world of good.
-brad

Billy_Bob
01-20-2008, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>
If you have a cut to the left and keep missing the ball to the left of the pocket, that means you're OVERCUTTING it.
WHAT IS THE easy ADJUSTMENT (or adjustments) that you could make in ALIGNMENT to correct the overcut? You mentioned adjusting AIM. What's the difference between AIM and ALIGNMENT?

Same question for an UNDERCUT, missing it to the right. <hr /></blockquote>

With myself, I aim at say the far center diamond and I hit the far center diamond. Time and time again.

With other people, they may consistently hit the left side of the far center diamond. So I would point out that they should try aiming slightly more to the right. Then they do this and start hitting the center diamond. It seems silly, but this needs to be pointed out to some people. "You are consistently hitting to the left side of the far diamond, so aim slightly more to the right."

Now with cut shots and myself, I use what is called "muscle memory" for most shots. This is that I have learned from shooting zillions of shots, I just know where to aim. I don't think about it, I just "see it".

But to get to that point of being able to "see it", I first had to be able to get the cue ball to consistently go to where I was aiming. This is all about dominant eye, stroke, alignment, bridge, stance, being able to hit the center of the cue ball, etc., etc. This is all an "INSTRUCTOR needs to help with this" thing if there are serious problems. Or videotape yourself and see what is going on. Or have someone else watch you and see what is going on. But best to get a good instructor to watch and see what is happening. (I can't see what I am doing, so I need help with this.)

Anyway once you can get the cue ball to go exactly where you are aiming - each time every time (And I am talking about the center of the cue ball hitting the edge of the object ball exactly. Or hitting the object ball 1 millimeter or 1/8 inch to the right of the edge of the object ball consistently.), then you can set up exact cut shots by marking the table and shoot the same shot over and over.

Then if always overcutting on a left cut, you can adjust your aim slightly to the left and shoot the shot over and over again.

I look at where on the object ball I am aiming. Dead center, 1/8 inch to the right of dead center, 1/4 inch to the right of dead center, the edge of the object ball, 1/4 inch to the left of the edge, etc. I can see where I am aiming at on the object ball. So then if I am over cutting, then I can aim slightly to the left of where I WAS aiming.

Then once you can think about it for a specific shot and know where to aim on the object ball to make the shot, then you can shoot that same exact shot over and over 50 times! Then that shot will go into "muscle memory" and you will then "just know" where to aim to make that shot.

Then progressive practice (move CB back more and more to make more of a cut), will help to practice different cut angles.

Basically, shoot in the same exact shot 50 times and anyone can get to be quite good at that specific shot. Easy! Mark the exact spots on the table where the balls go.

Artemus
01-20-2008, 12:41 PM
Billy Bob stated:
I look at where on the object ball I am aiming. Dead center, 1/8 inch to the right of dead center, 1/4 inch to the right of dead center, the edge of the object ball, 1/4 inch to the left of the edge, etc. I can see where I am aiming at on the object ball. So then if I am over cutting, then I can aim slightly to the left of where I WAS aiming.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> We're still not quite on the same page
but we might be getting closer.

Yes, you can AIM slightly further to the left of where you were aiming or think you should be aiming.

But WHAT ALIGNMENT change would you need to make to allow you to aim EXACTLY where you know you SHOULD BE AIMING to make the shot instead of manipulating your AIM either right or left? Are you following me here?

Artemus
01-20-2008, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
If you are doing something wrong consistantly then its your body position to the shot which inturn effects your stroke. So instruction is the best solution here. Taking just one lesson on proper stance would be affordable and do a world of good.
-brad
<hr /></blockquote>

Who would be the best instructor to go to for that? One who teaches a straight on stance snooker style, (Allison does pretty good with it) or somebody that teaches a standard pool stance? What works best? (I'm just playing Devil's advocate on all of this stuff, not trying to be a jerkoff. Although I kinda have that down pat too.) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bradb
01-20-2008, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Billy Bob stated:
I look at where on the object ball I am aiming. Dead center, 1/8 inch to the right of dead center, 1/4 inch to the right of dead center, the edge of the object ball, 1/4 inch to the left of the edge, etc. I can see where I am aiming at on the object ball. So then if I am over cutting, then I can aim slightly to the left of where I WAS aiming.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> We're still not quite on the same page
but we might be getting closer.

Yes, you can AIM slightly further to the left of where you were aiming or think you should be aiming.

But WHAT ALIGNMENT change would you need to make to allow you to aim EXACTLY where you know you SHOULD BE AIMING to make the shot instead of manipulating your AIM either right or left? Are you following me here? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, constantly correcting your sighting will only lead to indecision and confusion.

Since we are talking about a beginning player we need to address the basics of pool. It will do no good to work on sighting if the over all approach is faulty. Of course when you say beginner I have no idea at what level of beginner we are talking about.

For sighting, and this should be something you do when you have learned the basics, the "ghost ball" is one way to learn. Place another ball touching the Oball exactly on line to the pocket. Now get back and sight over the cue ball position to see where the placed ball is touching the Oball, that is your aiming point! If your Qball replaces the placed ball at that exact point on impact... the Oball will pocket. If you are still undercutting (or over cutting) then your stance is wrong... or you are imparting unintentional spin on the cue ball.

There are other sighting methods but this one is the most accurate and easiest to employ. brad

bradb
01-20-2008, 01:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>

Who would be the best instructor to go to for that? One who teaches a straight on stance snooker style, (Allison does pretty good with it) or somebody that teaches a standard pool stance? What works best? (I'm just playing Devil's advocate on all of this stuff, not trying to be a jerkoff. Although I kinda have that down pat too.) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The mechanics of pool are the same no mater what table you play on. So any qualified instructor (accredited) will do.

Ask around your local pool scene and you can find one.

PS... see Dr Daves diagram on the ghost ball aiming system.

pooltchr
01-20-2008, 06:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> It's like if a car is missing and just not running properly, you don't need to do a major diagnostic test on everything or engine overhaul if all it needs is one spark plug to be replaced.

<hr /></blockquote>

But you still have to go through the process of checking each individual plug until you find the one that is causing the problem. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

Qtec
01-20-2008, 09:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
I guess it could be anything but this is particular problem IMO, is commonly a result of incorrect alignment.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

Alignment of what, body or head/eyes or both?

So let's take it a step further. What if a player is frequently UNDERCUTTING the ball to the left. What body, head/eyes, or both adjustment might he/she want to make?

What if a player is frequently OVERCUTTING the ball to the left. What body, head/eyes or both adjustment might he/she try to alter?

Blackheart mentioned "bad habits". What bad habit that slowly crept in might need to be fixed in the alignment phase to correct the overcutting/undercutting problem and what is the solution?
<hr /></blockquote>

You don't get it. There is no point in asking these kind of hypothetical Qs.
Put it this way. Lets say you came to me with this 'problem', ie you make RH cuts a lot and miss LH cuts a lot!

Here is a Q for you. If you were the coach, what would be the first thing you would do?

I know what I would do.

Anybody?

Qtec

Artemus
01-21-2008, 06:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
I guess it could be anything but this is particular problem IMO, is commonly a result of incorrect alignment.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

Alignment of what, body or head/eyes or both?

So let's take it a step further. What if a player is frequently UNDERCUTTING the ball to the left. What body, head/eyes, or both adjustment might he/she want to make?

What if a player is frequently OVERCUTTING the ball to the left. What body, head/eyes or both adjustment might he/she try to alter?

Blackheart mentioned "bad habits". What bad habit that slowly crept in might need to be fixed in the alignment phase to correct the overcutting/undercutting problem and what is the solution?
<hr /></blockquote>

You don't get it. There is no point in asking these kind of hypothetical Qs.
Put it this way. Lets say you came to me with this 'problem', ie you make RH cuts a lot and miss LH cuts a lot!

Here is a Q for you. If you were the coach, what would be the first thing you would do?

I know what I would do.

Anybody?

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

I also know EXACTLY what I would do for myself. But here's a little story for you that is NOT HYPOTHETICAL and it involves one of the best players in the world. A few years back Johnny Archer was playing in a televised tournament that was a race to 7.

Somehow or another it got hill/hill despite some bad play on his part. It was the wildest thing. Over those seven games he had 3 right hand cut shots along the long rail to the corner pocket at the foot side of the table and MISSED THEM like a banger! Two of them he knocked into the rail and the last one in the 7th game he overcut as a correction and hit the short rail, missing the pocket entirely! The announcers were making comments throughout how they couldn't believe that he was missing such a common shot, but he just wasn't SEEING it properly. (there's a hint for you on the fix)

So, in all of your infinite wisdom, what would you have done and said to Johnny Archer?

Btw, in answer to your question - make sure you play position properly to give yourself nothing else but RIGHT CUTS. Never leave yourself with a LEFT cut. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Artemus
01-21-2008, 06:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> It's like if a car is missing and just not running properly, you don't need to do a major diagnostic test on everything or engine overhaul if all it needs is one spark plug to be replaced.

<hr /></blockquote>

But you still have to go through the process of checking each individual plug until you find the one that is causing the problem. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

True, but looking at a few plugs isn't quite the same as changing the carburetor, replacing all the belts, removing the head gasket, redoing the pistons, and lifting the entire engine out of the car before getting to the spark plugs. Some instructors come in for a minor problem and want to revamp or change EVERYTHING to fit a certain perfect mold which they adhere to and that really bugs the hell out of me. Nothing worse than building a world of clones.

Billy_Bob
01-21-2008, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> But WHAT ALIGNMENT change would you need to make to allow you to aim EXACTLY where you know you SHOULD BE AIMING to make the shot instead of manipulating your AIM either right or left? Are you following me here? <hr /></blockquote>

Where exactly to aim for a cut shot has no easy answer!

One simple answer is place a ghost ball in line with the pocket, then look at that shot and see where on the object ball you can aim from dead center of the cue ball to some point on the object ball. (The object ball can be cut into quarters for example. Or more exact, use the center of the object ball or the edge of the object ball as starting points, then measure in your mind 1/8 inch left/right of that point, 1/4 inch left/right of that point, etc.)

Getting very precise with aiming to an exact point on the object ball, point the tip of your cue to the bottom of the cue ball and stroke back and forth. You will see the reflection of your tip going back and forth on the surface of the cue ball. This is a vertical line which looks like this | . As you stroke, the vertical line reflection "blinks" on and off. So you can then look at the object ball and also see this "blinking" at the same time. Then you can accurately line up this blinking with an exact spot on the object ball.

Another method: I have a radial laminated shaft which has different colored wood in some of the "pie" sections. This forms thin lines down my shaft. I can rotate my shaft so one of these lines is at 12:00, then use this line to sight along my shaft through the cue ball to an exact point on the object ball.

A better spot to line up the ghost ball for aiming is the near pocket facing rather than dead center into the pocket. This is because of "throw". When the cue ball contacts the object ball, there is a bit of forward friction which causes the object ball to slide a bit forward. So instead of lining up the ghost ball to point the shot to be dead center of the pocket, point it a bit backward of that to the near pocket facing and then the ball should go into the center of the pocket*. (*See Advanced below.)

There are all sorts of aiming systems out there for cut shots. The problem with this is you need to somehow figure out the angle of every shot so you will know where to aim. I tried this once and made a lot of shots including some very difficult cut shots. The problem was I had to "think" before shooting each shot! I did well for 4 games, then my mind was exhausted! I couldn't "think" anymore! Then this aiming system broke down with the 5th game due to my mental exhaustion. What works best for me is "muscle memory". I can play forever using muscle memory without getting mentally exhausted. I forget what system I was using. If interested, might want to start a separate topic on cut shot aiming systems.)

Another thing I have noticed with myself with "seeing" the shot is visual perspective. For cut shots I need to have a "birds eye view". I see where to aim by looking down on the shot, then line up my cue for that aiming, then go down on my shot with my cue in line with that shot. So the aiming is done when standing up where I can see the angle. I can hold my cue straight up in the air while standing and line up the shot, then bring my cue straight down to the table and the shot is lined up.

Advanced: The amount of "throw" with cut shots can be quite different depending on angle of shot, how clean or dirty the balls are, humidity, cloth on the table, and condition of the cue ball. It gets even more complicated when hitting the cue ball off-center (english, follow, draw) or with a stun shot. Following is a short video demonstration of how shooting a cut shot using various cue ball hits can change where the object ball goes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-xtzn4vbiQ

Also when hitting the cue ball using english, there is the problem of squirt and swerve. To be most consistent with cut shots, I would suggest starting by shooting all shots with a medium speed stroke and a center hit on the cue ball.

Artemus
01-21-2008, 08:45 AM
Billy Bob, You're taking this into a whole other realm, aiming, throw, swerve, etc.

Stick with ALIGNMENT right now. I don't care what "aiming" system you use, if the alignment is off and you aren't SEEING it correctly, nothing will work with consistency.

What ALIGNMENT change would you make if you were missing cut shots to the left, be it undercutting or overcutting to get yourself back on track to SEE the shot exactly where you want to aim. (it might actually be a stroke problem but keep it to alignment)

Do you have a table at home? Are you at work or home during the day?

CarolNYC
01-21-2008, 09:04 AM
Move to the left or right

Qtec
01-21-2008, 09:06 AM
There is no difference between right and left cuts! Thats all in your head.
The first thing I would do [ in YOUR example] is to find out if the player can actually hit what he/she is aiming at.

[ QUOTE ]
A few years back Johnny Archer was playing in a televised tournament that was a race to 7.

Somehow or another it got hill/hill despite some bad play on his part. It was the wildest thing. Over those seven games he had 3 right hand cut shots along the long rail to the corner pocket at the foot side of the table and MISSED THEM like a banger! Two of them he knocked into the rail and the last one in the 7th game he overcut as a correction and hit the short rail, missing the pocket entirely! The announcers were making comments throughout how they couldn't believe that he was missing such a common shot, but he just wasn't SEEING it properly. (there's a hint for you on the fix)

So, in all of your infinite wisdom, what would you have done and said to Johnny Archer? <hr /></blockquote>

If its a race to 7 and its hill-hill then its 13 games.

What would I have said to JA?
Nothing.
Just because JA is playing bad [ still gets to the hill!] and misses a few balls doesn't mean he has a problem with right cuts. Even pros have their off days.

If I ever had the pleasure of meeting the guy I think I would be listening, not talking.

Qtec

CarolNYC
01-21-2008, 09:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
but he just wasn't SEEING it properly.
<hr /></blockquote>
Good answer!

Artemus
01-21-2008, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Move to the left or right <hr /></blockquote>

I knew I loved you for a reason, even though you are a New Yawka that skipped out on me in my time of dire monetary need for the Ferrari. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No sheeyit!! How easy of an alignment adjustment is that! Exactly where I'm coming from.

Billy_Bob
01-21-2008, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> What ALIGNMENT change would you make if you were missing cut shots to the left, be it undercutting or overcutting to get yourself back on track to SEE the shot exactly where you want to aim.

Do you have a table at home? Are you at work or home during the day? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes I have my own table and work from home, so home a lot of the time.

For myself, I use "muscle memory", so there is no "general" alignment or aiming for "all" cut shots. Each cut shot is unique and I have learned each shot separately.

So what I do if I am having trouble with a particular cut shot is to set up THAT one cut shot on my table. Then I mark the exact location of the cue ball and object ball with white blackboard chalk (make an x under each ball).

Then I shoot that exact same cut shot over and over. If at first I am overcutting, then I adjust my aim a little the appropriate direction and usually begin making the shot.

Now *I* am using "muscle memory" which is not thinking about where I am aiming for each shot. I just "see" the shot. I "burn" this into my brain by shooting the same exact shot over and over and over and over. Also by staying down on my shot after shooting until the balls stop rolling. That is important. Stay down on each shot.

This is like learning to shoot basketball when a kid. At first you miss, then with practice standing in the same spot, you adjust and get closer and closer to making a basket. Then once you learn, you don't think about it any more. You just "do it"!

The thing with pool is there are 3 zillion different shots or "baskets". I need to learn each cut shot separately. One shot at a time.

So that is how I do it. Hit and miss at first. If missing, adjust aim a little and try again. Then with staying down on the shot until the balls stop rolling and shooting the same exact shot over and over, I learn the shot. The shot goes into muscle memory. It is ok to miss shots when practicing, if you stay down on the shot after shooting, you are learning even when missing shots.

I have done this with other people. They keep missing the same cut shots. So I set up the shot, mark the spots on the table so we can set up the same exact shot, then have them shoot that exact shot over and over. 50 times. At first they undercut mostly. Then they overcut mostly, then they get right on for a few shots. Then the ball is all over the place for a few shots. Then they get it and make every shot from then on mostly.

Then the next time they play, that shot comes up and they make it! They are amazed! I say "See it works!"

But that is only one shot. Each separate shot needs to be set up and practiced like this. Each shot learned on its own. It is like learning to shoot basketball, only need to learn from the get go for each separate shot.

Muscle memory and the human body/mind has some weird "built-in" features people are not aware of. With repeat practice of something, the mind can do all the "aiming" for you automatically. All you need to do is "visualize" the ball going into the pocket and bam there it goes (with repeat practice).

Sometimes I play not so good players and miss my shots on purpose to give them an advantage. If I don't intentionally aim my shots to miss, the ball will go into the pocket automatically! My arm just directs it automatically to go into the pocket! So I need to actually think about aiming at the edge of the pocket so the ball will go there instead of into the pocket. Also if I just step up to the table and whack the ball, many times the balls will go right into the pocket. This is "muscle memory".

More about muscle memory...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

CarolNYC
01-21-2008, 10:01 AM
I remember-I didnt skip out-Im just waiting to win lotto,then Im sending you that Ferrari /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

Artemus
01-21-2008, 10:12 AM
Hmmmm, I think I'm going to have to set up a 4 way conference call between my cerebellum, retina, lattismus dorsi, and glutteus maximus to get this all right.

Why don't you just try what Carol stated. Move right or left. That's it!

Set up an OB 3" off the short rail between the 1st and 2nd diamond closest to the pocket. Place your CB 6 1/2" straight toward the center of the table from the diamond closest to the side pocket on the same side of the table.

The shot can be overcut to miss the pocket if you hit it too thin or undercut into the rail if you hit it too thick. It isn't a difficult shot. HOWEVER, just move your HEAD and EYES either left or right, well to the inside of the cue and well to the outside of the cue and tell us what happens to not only the perspective, but the result of the shot itself.

In your case, I don't know it anything will happen. Your pectoralis major and minor may be so grooved that you just can't miss any more.

To make it more difficult with the same experiment, place an OB on the foot spot and the CB somewhere back in the kitchen and see what happens from moving left or right.

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 11:14 AM
Q, not sure what the poster here has in mind, but given that the miss is consistent to one side, or the other (OVERCUT &amp; UNDERCUT had to be in capitols????)...then the error is also consistent.
It reminded me of Joe Davis's great book, long out of print.
Joe was a 15 times Billiards Champion( if I remember correctly) who then switched to Pool, and mastered that sport.
At first though, he found himself consistently missing balls, and according to Joe, had to retrain his eyes to see the shots differently.....AND...he wasn't a rank beginner....
I used to miss long cut shots with regularity; blamed it on my eyes, but discovered it was an alignment error. With my old stance, my cue was pointing a little inward, even though it looked straight to me. I got away with that error on the shorter shots.
The answer has to be an aiming or alignment error....or poor stroke mechanics. I don't see any benefit of listing 101 aim/alignment error, causes????? "It ain't rocket science"

bradb
01-21-2008, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Move to the left or right <hr /></blockquote>

I knew I loved you for a reason, even though you are a New Yawka that skipped out on me in my time of dire monetary need for the Ferrari. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No sheeyit!! How easy of an alignment adjustment is that! Exactly where I'm coming from. <hr /></blockquote>

Best advise I ever had is hit the damn thing where it will go!.....

Artemus
01-21-2008, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
The answer has to be an aiming or alignment error....or poor stroke mechanics. I don't see any benefit of listing 101 aim/alignment error, causes????? "It ain't rocket science" <hr /></blockquote>

Well, since you brought it up, lets assume that the alignment and aim are spot on the mark. No Problems! What are some of the stroke mechanics that can cause an OVERCUT or an UNDERCUT. Break them down individually.

I like capitalizing those two words for individuals who either have or thought they had eye problems so there's no mistaking it. Also, I get extreme pleasure when I torque off forum police and get under their skin.

Do not use rocket science in your explanations, even though this is the top rocket science pool forum for formulas, equations, and physics.

Artemus
01-21-2008, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Move to the left or right <hr /></blockquote>

I knew I loved you for a reason, even though you are a New Yawka that skipped out on me in my time of dire monetary need for the Ferrari. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No sheeyit!! How easy of an alignment adjustment is that! Exactly where I'm coming from. <hr /></blockquote>

Best advise I ever had is hit the damn thing where it will go!.....

<hr /></blockquote>

That might not be good advice for golf. It might go in the woods, water, sand, trees, bushes, rocks, or rough. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 12:56 PM
You seem to take offense at anything that doesn't agree with your own thoughts on a topic.....and they are then, forum police???? It is a forum, I'd remind you...where different opinions are discussed. If all you want is a bobble-head audience....then (A) begin your own blog site...and (B) establish some credentials in the game...
Otherwise settle for the fact that players might not always buy into your teachings
I have my own ideas about video-taping for one thing...and while I respect Scott, Mike, And Jude, we're on opposite sides regarding that. Does that mean I can't enjoy reading their posts, and maybe glean some info from them?
I've been around pool for some time now...worked in and managed rooms..... my playing skill lags far behind my knowledge of the game....but that's not my fault....do you think Eli Manning would be playing in the Super Bowl, if Archie Manning wasn't his Dad? My own Father couldn't run 3 balls if you spotted him the first 2.
In this thread,I think you are asking for too much detail, re: aim or alignment error...and I'm sure you are just waiting for the chance to fill in the blanks... for our edification.
Rather then get under my skin....I see you as someone who is underestimating both the knowledge and playing ability of the general membership here.I also get the idea that you are going help bring us up to speed???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Cornerman
01-21-2008, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Whether you were to use video or no video, what would ALL THE POSSIBILITIES be in your setup and stroke that could cause you to be missing cuts to the left with regularity as a right handed player

List EVERYTHING you think could cause it in your post. <hr /></blockquote>The fact that I suck should sum it up.

Fred

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 01:47 PM
"Here is a Q for you. If you were the coach, what would be the first thing you would do?

I know what I would do.

Anybody?"

He'd be the last one off the bench on my team...../ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"Here is a Q for you. If you were the coach, what would be the first thing you would do?

I know what I would do.

Anybody?"

He'd be the last one off the bench on my team.....

Seriously though.....I'd guess he has an alignment error.
As a left hander...I find long straight shots near the right rail...more difficult then along the left...but also know why...I tend to line up slightly inwards on those shots, and my misses are to the left, and hit the end rail...I can get away with this on an 8 ft'r with big pockets....but not on my home table.
What would be your remedy for the original situation??

Artemus
01-21-2008, 02:53 PM
Aaaahh yes, nothing like irritable bowel syndrome in the aged. How can you be on opposite sides of agreement with Mike, Scott, and Jude when Mike and Scott are in opposition to Jude's way of thinking? That means you don't agree with ANYONE! But to be your normal, cantankerous self, I already had that figured out.

Don't you read? The primary thing I was looking for on alignment is what Carol said, "move left or right". End of subject. We're moving on now, catch up.

So how about laying some of YOUR limitless knowledge on us regarding "stroke problems" when the aim and alignment is right on spot. Don't wait until the end of the tread after someone else gives some good answers and make it seem like you already knew it and are coming out with something new.

Are you a "condo commando" in real life? How about a "home owners association watchdog"? You know, one of those people that goes everywhere and whines about what others have in their yards, how they paint their property, the size and shape of their mailbox, the length of the grass in their yard or amount of weeds and then has warning letters written as well as fines issued?

Artemus
01-21-2008, 02:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Whether you were to use video or no video, what would ALL THE POSSIBILITIES be in your setup and stroke that could cause you to be missing cuts to the left with regularity as a right handed player

List EVERYTHING you think could cause it in your post. <hr /></blockquote>The fact that I suck should sum it up.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I don't thinkkkk so. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bradb
01-21-2008, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>

As a left hander...I find long straight shots near the right rail...more difficult then along the left...but also know why...I tend to line up slightly inwards on those shots, and my misses are to the left, and hit the end rail...I can get away with this on an 8 ft'r with big pockets....but not on my home table.
What would be your remedy for the original situation?? <hr /></blockquote>

I had this problem a while back. I used to shoot at the inside side of the pocket to compensate for it. I had a pro look at my stance and it seems I was following through off line because of my body position along the right rail.

I'm a right handed shooter so on the right side rail, my arm was pushed up against my body because of the inward lean. On the left side rail shot, my arm was free and I stroked normally. The answer was to make sure I was getting my body over far enough to free the arm for a normal swing. It was'nt much but enough to mis-aline the shot.

I know that a right dominate eye sometimes comes into play, but I would deffinately take a look at the stance. Changing the stroke to compesate for a bad stance only adds more faults to our game.

-brad

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 03:22 PM
your charges are just products of your own imagination.
You won't see me trying to impress anybody with my pool acumen. I don't need to be trying to promote myself as an expert, and I'm aware of the many members here, who are in fact experts on the game.
I do belong to an HOA....and have neither any problems with the elected officers, nor do I have any suggestions for them.
AND while listing everybody....I agree with the idea that just viewing yourself with no real insights as to what constitutes a good stroke, or good alignment is of little help, I also think one would have to be really dense not to see some flaws....so you might say I both agree and disagree with all the posters on that topic.
I could spot my own flaws in a video...even without your expert guidance.

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 03:25 PM
Brad, I also found that I had to get my body alongside the table to align properly....but still, sometimes forget to do that....
Thanks for pointing that out...

Artemus
01-21-2008, 03:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
I'm a right handed shooter so on the right side rail, my arm was pushed up against my body because of the inward lean. On the left side rail shot, my arm was free and I stroked normally. The answer was to make sure I was getting my body over far enough to free the arm for a normal swing. It was'nt much but enough to mis-aline the shot.
<hr /></blockquote>

Brad, I think you hit on an important one here regarding stroke problems. You have it listed as a setup problem and I agree, it also causes stroke problems and one I watch for on myself.

IMO, when the upper arm isn't in the proper position or distance from the body, there's a tendency to yank the back of the stroking hand further away from the body, which in turn has the cue aiming more to the left side of the ball and left of target at the end of the stroke. If you return it back on that path, it more than likely will result in a missed shot.

In my stroke it's actually a flaw, although not acute, but it is there and I make compensations for it on right or left cuts. I think it was kinda like the swipe that Bob Jewett was referring to in his own stroke. A good number of pros play that way and compensate in their setup to the right or left of center ball in order to strike center ball. It's a matter of fixing it perfectly, or knowing your stroke inside and out and using it properly.

I don't think many instructors would agree with me on that, but it is a fact of life for a lot of players including some of the top pros.

Artemus
01-21-2008, 03:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> your charges are just products of your own imagination.
I do belong to an HOA <hr /></blockquote>

ROTFLMFAO!! I think my imagination is quite astute and precognitive. I can't stop laughing, this is just too much! LOL

Wolfdancer, Self Appointed Forum Police Extraordinnaire.

I have a deal for you. I won't post ANYTHING to you or about you ever again. In turn, YOU don't post ANYTHING to me or about me again either. That also means NOT coming in on any thread that either one of us starts. I can't come on yours, and you don't come on mine. DEAL or NO DEAL?? Howie Mandel wants to know.

bradb
01-21-2008, 04:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>
Brad, I think you hit on an important one here regarding stroke problems. You have it listed as a setup problem and I agree, it also causes stroke problems and one I watch for on myself.

IMO, when the upper arm isn't in the proper position or distance from the body, there's a tendency to yank the back of the stroking hand further away from the body, which in turn has the cue aiming more to the left side of the ball and left of target at the end of the stroke. If you return it back on that path, it more than likely will result in a missed shot.

In my stroke it's actually a flaw, although not acute, but it is there and I make compensations for it on right or left cuts. I think it was kinda like the swipe that Bob Jewett was referring to in his own stroke. A good number of pros play that way and compensate in their setup to the right or left of center ball in order to strike center ball. It's a matter of fixing it perfectly, or knowing your stroke inside and out and using it properly.

I don't think many instructors would agree with me on that, but it is a fact of life for a lot of players including some of the top pros. <hr /></blockquote>

We all have little quirks in our game that are part of our physical makeup and we shoot whats comfortable to over come them. We're human, not machines and its impossible to ignore that. Although I think Alison's stroke is the closest thing to perfection there is.

Many top players have minute flaws, some have major...Piaz comes to mind. And we still see players come up out of a shot often.

I strive to keep my arm and elbow perfectly alined at a right angle to the table on every shot position but unless somebody else checks out my stance I have no way of knowing if its true, its all instinct. I also have a tendecy to tighten my grip on follow thru so staying relaxed is something I work on..

I allways refer to Mike Seigals shot alinement routine. He lines up with his body on the rail and practiceses follow thru to see if his cue follows the rail perfectly. I do this before I start a set to be sure I lock in the stroke and stance, sometimes I forget and go back to some old bad habits. -brad

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 05:43 PM
I'd just as soon not reply to you directly, however there are other people that might be on one of "your" threads, that I might want to share a thought with. So I'll be glad to buy into half of your deal.
As for you replying to my posts....if you have anything interesting to add, even in disagreement...I don't see a problem....that's what a forum is..a free exchange of ideas.
I'm glad that you found the HOA so hilarious....not sure why though...It's a private street, and we are responsible for the lighting, and maintaining/cleaning the paved road. We also have some regs. on parking to protect the kids that play, and provide a playground for them.....
It also means that I have my own home...although on loan from the Bank for another 26 yrs.
It might be a joke to you, but it's the American dream for many of us.....and considering the many homeless living on the streets, I feel very fortunate....
you sure you ain't related to lww?...he thinks the NPR side is his personal soapbox.

Artemus
01-21-2008, 05:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
I also have a tendecy to tighten my grip on follow thru so staying relaxed is something I work on..
<hr /></blockquote>

You landed on another one of my favorites. Tightening the grip quite a bit anywhere in the stroke. And I inadvertantly erased rising up early on the shot.

I don't know what the definition of a stroke is according to the BCA training or any other teaching pro, but to me it's basically the movement of the arm and cue back and forth to strike the CB in a predetermined direction.

To me, a stroke problem is one that alters the alignment of the cue which rolls the ball off line or doesn't strike the CB where you planned to strike it. I'm sure the teaching pros can come up with more than that, but I'm simple minded. 1+1=2 is my theme.

I'm not of the view that a stroke always has to be perfectly straight either, especially if you're swiping the ball with BHE or tucking and rolling. There are other ways of executing backhand english by prepivoting, but swiping is an alternative.

Problems that I've observed that alter the cue path or impact point have to do with moving the hand and elbow away from the body, altering the grip pressure, a fast jerky transition, and rolling the wrists up or under when you don't want to and are trying to keep it straight.

I DO NOT see altering the wrists in a tuck or roll position as a problem IF a player knows what's happening and knows what to expect. Typically, a tuck will move the cue tip to the RIGHT of the vertical center line. A roll will alter the tip of the cue to the LEFT of the vertical center line. Most teachers don't ever want a student doing it, but almost ALL pro players and roadies DO.
I think a piston stroke for players not very advanced is also a kiss of death.

That's my take on why and how a stroke problem can make you miss cuts or any shot even if everything else is right on the mark. There are probably more, but I just got the call to go eat dinner. I know my priorities. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
01-21-2008, 06:11 PM
Art,
Since you like to keep things simple, how's this...

Determine where you want the cue ball to go.
Align youself and your cue to direct the cue ball to the aiming point.
Set to determine where on the cue ball you will make contact.
Draw back smoothly.
Move the cue stick forward in a straight line until you reach the natural finish point.

If you do all of that, you should eliminate any problem.

Now all you need to know is HOW to do all of the above. That's where pool school comes in handy.

Steve

Artemus
01-21-2008, 06:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'd just as soon not reply to you directly, however there are other people that might be on one of "your" threads, that I might want to share a thought with. So I'll be glad to buy into half of your deal.

<font color="red"> NO DEAL! I don't start all of the threads on this forum so you have PLENTY of opportunity to share thoughts with them elsewhere on those other threads. You also have PM's to share your thoughts. The way you want to do it is the same as it is now, there is NO change. I want to do this to maintain peace. I'm sick and tired of you coming here with your little backdoor attacks and innuendos regarding me or my posts. Since you would rather not reply to me directly and I not to you, STAY OUT. Don't tempt yourself because you can't control it. </font color>

As for you replying to my posts....if you have anything interesting to add, even in disagreement...I don't see a problem....that's what a forum is..a free exchange of ideas.

<font color="red"> Thanks but NO THANKS. I'll stay away. It's best that way. If there was an IGNORE feature on this forum, you'd already be on it. Unfortunately there isn't. Let's face it, you don't like me and I don't like you. That's OK, it's just called "LIFE".
</font color>

I'm glad that you found the HOA so hilarious....not sure why though...It's a private street, and we are responsible for the lighting, and maintaining/cleaning the paved road. We also have some regs. on parking to protect the kids that play, and provide a playground for them.....

<font color="red"> And I'm CERTAIN that you're out there performing your duties as an enforcer of those regs. to the hilt. I'm also certain you don't just stop at the regs. You're always looking for crap to harp on. It's in your blood. You're the typical "condo commando" "homeowners association watchdog" and "self-appointed forum police". It never ends.</font color>

It also means that I have my own home...although on loan from the Bank for another 26 yrs.
It might be a joke to you, but it's the American dream for many of us.....and considering the many homeless living on the streets, I feel very fortunate....
you sure you ain't related to lww?...he thinks the NPR side is his personal soapbox. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> What makes you think I'm not a homeowner? I own 2, one of which has a Homeowners Association, my primary residence.

I already told you I don't know who LWW is nor do I care. Apparently you do because he doesn't follow YOUR RULES AND REGS. I'm going to make the request once again, STAY OUT OF MY THREADS THAT I START AND I'LL STAY OUT OF YOURS! Talk to people that you know elsewhere. If we BOTH respond to a thread that neither one of us started, then it's fair game and we both have a right to speak our peace and share ideas with others. I HATE this garbage on forums.</font color>

Artemus
01-21-2008, 06:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Art,
Since you like to keep things simple, how's this...

Determine where you want the cue ball to go.
Align youself and your cue to direct the cue ball to the aiming point.
Set to determine where on the cue ball you will make contact.
Draw back smoothly.
Move the cue stick forward in a straight line until you reach the natural finish point.

If you do all of that, you should eliminate any problem.

Now all you need to know is HOW to do all of the above. That's where pool school comes in handy.

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I DO know how to do that Steve, and I do it VERY well, honest. I'm not bullsheeting you either. I do it very well. However, your formula for simplicity is great, I think a lot of people will benefit from it. Now the only thing is getting them there instead of their trying to reinvent the wheel or getting lousy advice from bangers.

Qtec
01-21-2008, 07:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you just try what Carol stated. Move right or left. That's it! <hr /></blockquote>

If you begin wrong its always going to be wrong.

If you get down on the shot and you are lined up incorrectly, you should stand up,

[ QUOTE ]
Step well back from the table in line with the shot.
SEE the line.
SEE your target.
Imagine yourself playing the shot.
Now play the shot.


Hit your target.

Qtec ......try it <hr /></blockquote>

ie, you start again!!!!!!!!!!!

Qtec.................are these supposed to be trick questions? If you do have something to say, please say it.

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 08:10 PM
WTF?????????????????????????????????????????/

CarolNYC
01-22-2008, 05:56 AM
Q,
I have a table home- a friend came over-she plays very casually-she asked my routine-I showed her some drillshots-I asked her to shoot a spot-to-spot shot ,centerball,and cut it in the left hand pocket-she kept hitting the object ball full-I used a second ball,like ghostball,removed it to show her the aiming spot-again,too full-I stood behind her to see where shes aiming,when she got down,I just moved her bridgehand to the left, a hair (no precise measurement cause you just have to do it) and told "hit it here"-this worked for her-
Everyones at a different level,every shots different-Im not a teacher /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gifthats the only way I knew to show her
Have a nice day!
Carol

Artemus
01-22-2008, 06:27 AM
Carol, I'm not a teacher either. but it doesn't mean I haven't been a devoted student of the game for a long time whether it's mine or somebody else's.

I guess the problem I have with teaching personally is that I'm just not that giving of a person and altruistic. Teaching takes time. When I ask myself "whose game is more important, mine or somebody who is struggling, the answer always comes up the same. (guess which one) LOL

You're right, moving the bridge hand right or left will do it. Have you ever worked with placing your bridge hand on the table and NOT moved it, but TURN the hand on a closed bridge so that the knuckles are facing more forward or more to the side than what you normally do? If so, it'll also alter the way the cue slides through the loop and stays on a certain line by doing it one way or another.

Artemus
01-22-2008, 07:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Why don't you just try what Carol stated. Move right or left. That's it! <hr /></blockquote>

If you begin wrong its always going to be wrong.

If you get down on the shot and you are lined up incorrectly, you should stand up,

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Step well back from the table in line with the shot.
SEE the line.
SEE your target.
Imagine yourself playing the shot.
Now play the shot.


Hit your target.

Qtec ......try it <hr /></blockquote>

ie, you start again!!!!!!!!!!!

Qtec.................are these supposed to be trick questions? If you do have something to say, please say it. <hr /></blockquote>

Huh?? If you don't think I'm saying enough, you're saying even LESS. If the Q-School for becoming an articulate conversationalist is anything like the Q-School of Pool, I think both would have the same decibel level and activity as a library.

CarolNYC
01-22-2008, 07:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Teaching takes time <hr /></blockquote>
Absolutely-you gotta respect teachers /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever worked with placing your bridge hand on the table and NOT moved it, but TURN the hand on a closed bridge so that the knuckles are facing more forward or more to the side than what you normally do? <hr /></blockquote>
Yes /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.giffor you and I,that works,but,you know when someone has that ,I guess,beginner- type,tight,cupped,open bridge,palm and fingertips pressing hard on table,this was her-refusing to relax,so,I had to actually move it,ha ha ha!
Stay well!
Carol

Artemus
01-22-2008, 08:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Teaching takes time <hr /></blockquote>
Absolutely-you gotta respect teachers /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Have you ever worked with placing your bridge hand on the table and NOT moved it, but TURN the hand on a closed bridge so that the knuckles are facing more forward or more to the side than what you normally do? <hr /></blockquote>
Yes /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.giffor you and I,that works,but,you know when someone has that ,I guess,beginner- type,tight,cupped,open bridge,palm and fingertips pressing hard on table,this was her-refusing to relax,so,I had to actually move it,ha ha ha!
Stay well!
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

I'm staying well and feeling spunky!

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds-5/ferrari-enzo-2.jpg&amp;imgrefurl=http://www.mccullagh.org/photo/1ds-5/ferrari-enzo-2&amp;h=512&amp;w=768&amp;sz=137&amp;hl=en&amp;start=5&amp;um=1&amp;tbnid=FWZI MunOvacIPM:&amp;tbnh=95&amp;tbnw=142&amp;prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpicture%2Bof%2Bferrari%26svnum%3D10%2 6um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBR_enUS218US218%26s a%3DX

Gee, I hope I'm not going to be the first man you ever lied to. Keep playin' those numbers, I feel LADY LUCK right around the corner! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
01-22-2008, 08:24 AM
660 hp-OMG!
"I feel the need,the need for speed!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

Billy_Bob
01-22-2008, 09:45 AM
FYI - There is a fairly easy method for cut shot aiming which I forgot about. That is to imagine a ghost cue ball lined up with the object ball for the shot into the pocket.

Place the tip of your cue on the table where the center of the ghost ball would be. Then rotate the back of your cue so the cue rotates to be over the cue ball, then look at where the tip of your cue is pointing. Aim at that spot.

This does not work with beginners who do not take care to be accurate with anything concerning their game. They are also not accurate about placing the tip of their cue exactly where the center of the ghost ball would be. Instead they place the tip of their cue too close to the object ball, too far away, or offline. Then they are not aiming at the right spot and then say this system does not work!

I suppose if you are accurate with your aiming then you would also be accurate when using this aiming system (and probably would not need to use this aiming system).

CarolNYC
01-23-2008, 10:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Place the tip of your cue on the table where the center of the ghost ball would be. Then rotate the back of your cue so the cue rotates to be over the cue ball, then look at where the tip of your cue is pointing. Aim at that spot.
<hr /></blockquote>
I see people do this-sometimes,actually,lots of times,I just aim at the object ball like Im going to pocket it-SEE the spot and go back to the cueball and shoot!


Carol

Artemus
01-23-2008, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Place the tip of your cue on the table where the center of the ghost ball would be. Then rotate the back of your cue so the cue rotates to be over the cue ball, then look at where the tip of your cue is pointing. Aim at that spot.
<hr /></blockquote>
I see people do this-sometimes,actually,lots of times,I just aim at the object ball like Im going to pocket it-SEE the spot and go back to the cueball and shoot!


Carol
<hr /></blockquote>

Carol's way: 1+1=2

Ghost ball way: 1+1+2=5

bradb
01-23-2008, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Place the tip of your cue on the table where the center of the ghost ball would be. Then rotate the back of your cue so the cue rotates to be over the cue ball, then look at where the tip of your cue is pointing. Aim at that spot.
<hr /></blockquote>
I see people do this-sometimes,actually,lots of times,I just aim at the object ball like Im going to pocket it-SEE the spot and go back to the cueball and shoot!

<hr /></blockquote>


The ghost ball is a great way for beginners to learn how to sight a ball placed anywhere on the table. I relied on it for years until I no longer needed it. After a while you learn to just know where to cut the ball.

Aiming the Qtip at the contact point on the OB is the next step in progression of ability and you learn how effective that is in allowing for throw... its an "Aha!" thing.

For example: on an inside/outside english shot I aim from the contact point on the QB to the contact spot on the OB then ignore the QB alltogether. This automatically factors in the throw for me (except for extreme spin). When you get the feel for cutting the ball with whatever spin you need, you know if your stroke is right the ball will go. Well most of the time anyway... wish the hell I had the mis-cut I made last night again!
-brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

wolfdancer
01-23-2008, 01:15 PM
"SEE the spot and go back to the cueball and shoot!"

Carol, are you saying that you don't take any of the following into consideration?
"The method is fairly simple but it is a lot of work. Just keep track of all the forces on the balls and do the time integral of those forces to find the torque and acceleration of the balls. The result is the instantaneous spin and velocity of each ball at each time step and that gives the location as a function of time. Ball-ball collisions can be handled in the same way but the time steps must be a lot smaller during those collisions, since the contact takes place in about 200 microseconds."
We all see the shot a little differently....seeing the angle instead of the spot has helped my own game. I used to walk up to the ob, see the spot, then by the time i got back to the cb, forget where it was.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
01-23-2008, 03:03 PM
Hiya Jack,
The first person I ever asked for help in pool was an oldtimer(~70 yrs.) who played 14.1 at a local pool hall-his name was Duke-he said I had a good stroke-all I knew was centerball and pocket the ball-I wanted to know "How do I make my cueball do,blah,blah,blah?"
He took the cueball, put it in the center of the table and said" to make it follow,hit high,low to draw ,a little below center to stop it-if you aim deadstraight on a ball with right English,your object ball is going to shoot to the left and vice versa,so,when you use English, compensate for it-now rack"ha ha ha,I played like that for a year and came in the money on the regional tour consistently,cause ALL I knew was "pocket the ball and get on the next"-I controlled my cueball with just that-pretty primitive,huh? ha ha
Of course,YES, I take everything into consideration and use alot of it /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Like I said, all I knew was how to make the ball and get on the next,not the REASON why the ball was reacting /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
You guys amaze me (in a good way),you really do!
Stay very well!
Carol

CarolNYC
01-23-2008, 03:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
After a while you learn to just know where to cut the ball.

Aiming the Qtip at the contact point on the OB is the next step in progression of ability and you learn how effective that is in allowing for throw... its an "Aha!" thing
<hr /></blockquote>
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif-There you go!
Carol

CarolNYC
01-23-2008, 03:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Carol's way: 1+1=2

Ghost ball way: 1+1+2=5 <hr /></blockquote>

Ha HA HA-no,Im primitive-you guys are the smart ones! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

Artemus
01-23-2008, 03:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Carol's way: 1+1=2

Ghost ball way: 1+1+2=5 <hr /></blockquote>

Ha HA HA-no,Im primitive-you guys are the smart ones! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

You wanna come back to my cave, I have some candy and ice cream?

Hey, this story you wrote about DUKE could have been written by ME because it's almost identical to the way I learned to play. I just probably asked a few more wino's, derelicts, and gamblers who could shoot lights out and knew how to make everything.

I NEVER wanted to know WHY the balls did what they did (physics) and still don't, all I ever wanted to know is HOW to make the shot and HOW to keep from missing.

The way I look at it is this: There are 2 ways to pass physics exams, geometry exams, and all the rest of it to ace the course. You either study your arse off everyday and cram your brain with anything and everything that's in the books that will affect the outcome of the test, OR, you get the ANSWER SHEETS for all the exams and just memorize them. I might even have a better chance of getting 100% on ALL of the tests over the studier. I DO HAVE an excellent memory. That's why I just got the answers from people that know. If they didn't, somebody else did!

That's why the 99 Critical Shots In Pool has always been a classic and always will be along with 101 Big Pool Shots by Gerry (The Ghost)Watson. It isn't about WHY, it's just WHAT ARE THEY and HOW.

Look at some of the threads on here now, it's mind numbing, unbelievable!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Deeman3
01-23-2008, 04:26 PM
Thank-you for relieving us from our collective ignorance. We look forward to further knowledge from you.

CarolNYC
01-23-2008, 04:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You wanna come back to my cave, I have some candy and ice cream? <hr /></blockquote>
Ha Ha Ha-that isnt going to cut it,sorry-Woolley Mammoth Fur,or nothing /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I NEVER wanted to know WHY the balls did what they did (physics) and still don't, all I ever wanted to know is HOW to make the shot and HOW to keep from missing.
<hr /></blockquote>
At that time,I really never thought of why.......Just how.Also,in 9-ball,he made me CALL shots-then I'd get cocky and call all 9 balls and he'd say "dont do that-ONE BALL at a time"-God, he was so right-then I'd try to get perfect,ha ha, and he'd say "Whats the matter with you" and he'd extend his arms out and say,"look at all this room to put that cueball-just get it here!" -right again!I miss him!

[ QUOTE ]
I DO HAVE an excellent memory <hr /></blockquote>
Thats wonderful-I need to see it,not just be told-I can't recall like that /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
That's why I just got the answers from people that know. If they didn't, somebody else did!
<hr /></blockquote>
Yep, someone will always have the answer!
Always a pleasure /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

Artemus
01-23-2008, 04:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Thank-you for relieving us from our collective ignorance. We look forward to further knowledge from you. <hr /></blockquote>

Only if you're willing to use cheat sheets.

BigRigTom
01-23-2008, 04:41 PM
I initially learned the same way. I ask someone.
The problem was someone always knew the answer and the answer was always a bit different depending on who you ask.
Try asking 3 good players who are all standing next to each other and see what happens.

Especially when you ask it you should play a fairly easy two rail kick shot or a difficult 1 rail kick shot on the same ball and pocket.

10 to 1 that if you ask 3 good players you'll get 3 different answers.

Artemus
01-23-2008, 04:51 PM
So I guess that gives you 3 different ways of playing the shot.

1st rule: Only ask people that have the experience and know how to make the shot themselves and have them DO it on the table in front of you while explaining.

CarolNYC
01-23-2008, 04:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Especially when you ask it you should play a fairly easy two rail kick shot or a difficult 1 rail kick shot on the same ball and pocket.

10 to 1 that if you ask 3 good players you'll get 3 different answers. <hr /></blockquote>
Isnt that the truth? Oh my goodness, how many times others would come in and say "no,she can do this or that?" But the good thing is, there was ALWAYS OPTIONS and not just ONE WAY /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I'd choose what I felt comfortable with and at least I had a CHOICE /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Take care!
Carol ~just want to add:
[ QUOTE ]
The problem was someone always knew the answer and the answer was always a bit different depending on who you ask.
<hr /></blockquote>
I only played with Duke for that year,cause sometimes "too many chefs can ruin the broth" their opinions were somewhat welcome,other times annoying(some were helpful,others way off base),so,we tried to stay in the back on a table, until I learned a little more /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Billy_Bob
01-24-2008, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>...someone always knew the answer and the answer was always a bit different depending on who you ask.
Try asking 3 good players who are all standing next to each other and see what happens... <hr /></blockquote>

Also factor in that some very selfish players will intentionally give out wrong advice so others will play worse and they can win. (These same players also shark or cheat at every opportunity.)

It never fails. A beginner will come along and will steadily be improving their game - be getting close to getting in the money at tournaments. Then one of these jerks will give them "lessons" and the beginner's game goes down the tubes. Sometimes they get so discouraged they stop playing permanently.

Artemus
01-24-2008, 08:06 AM
That's why you always revert to RULE #1:

1st rule: Only ask people that have the experience and know how to make the shot themselves and have them DO it on the table in front of you while explaining.

CarolNYC
01-24-2008, 08:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It never fails. A beginner will come along and will steadily be improving their game - be getting close to getting in the money at tournaments. Then one of these jerks will give them "lessons" and the beginner's game goes down the tubes. Sometimes they get so discouraged they stop playing permanently.
<hr /></blockquote>
I'd advise, when you find a teacher,stick with that ONE teacher for awhile and dont ask/or welcome advice from
anyone else!
Carol

SKennedy
01-24-2008, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>...someone always knew the answer and the answer was always a bit different depending on who you ask.
Try asking 3 good players who are all standing next to each other and see what happens... <hr /></blockquote>

Also factor in that some very selfish players will intentionally give out wrong advice so others will play worse and they can win. (These same players also shark or cheat at every opportunity.)

It never fails. A beginner will come along and will steadily be improving their game - be getting close to getting in the money at tournaments. Then one of these jerks will give them "lessons" and the beginner's game goes down the tubes. Sometimes they get so discouraged they stop playing permanently.
<hr /></blockquote>

How about when you give good advice, but the player doesn't execute the shot very well, flubs it, and then blames you? Tuesday night 8-ball APA league play our last match was a 4 on our team playing vs a 7. We had already won 4 matches and they had saved their best player for last. We had a 6 who had already played but we still had two 5's who had not played. We put up the 4 mostly to irritate the 7 (he is a nice guy), which it did. They were both on the hill and on the last game our 4 was left with a kick shot on the 8-ball. We called time out and 3 of us (not player) talked about 2 options, I then proceeded to suggest to the player how to execute the shot, which was really a relatively easy kick shot. Even if he did not make the 8-ball he would put it in front of the pocket and block 3 of the opponents balls and would be a decent defensive shot. So, I watch the player line up the shot to have the cue ball hit the rail exactly where I had told him to hit. As I watched him address the cue ball I notice he is a good one tip left of center. I start to call a 2nd time out....but not sure if a 2nd one is legal with a level 4 vs a 7, and just decide to keep my mouth shut and let him shoot. Sure enough, he hits the cue ball with unintentional left spin, the cue ball comes off the rail and as a result of the spin barely misses the 8-ball, the cue ball leaves the 2nd rail and finds it's way into a pocket for an S-8, which in APA is a loss. Of course, I get the dirty looks from the level 4 and 1/2 of my team mates....But they will forgive me.....and who knows..maybe my spot for him on the rail was bad.
Now, I just have to remember to let my team mate know that he is not hitting the center of the ball.
But then..maybe I should never give anyone advice ever again.....

I have never seen anyone give someone bad advice on purpose to try to ruin someone's game. The folks in your area must really be mean....

Billy_Bob
01-25-2008, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> ...I have never seen anyone give someone bad advice on purpose to try to ruin someone's game. The folks in your area must really be mean.... <hr /></blockquote>

Actually there are three types of places to play...

Bar banger places - some very selfish and nasty people (wrong advice), some nice who know rules and play fair.

Pretty good players places - mostly friendly players who know rules and play fair, but one or two "jerks".

Very very good players places - All friendly players who know rules, play fair, and are willingly helpful with correct advice.

I have noticed the higher the skill level, the more sportsman like they are and no cheating/sharking. These people don't need to shark/cheat to win. They use their energy to work on improving their playing, not on getting the other player to play worse.

Artemus
01-25-2008, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>
I have noticed the higher the skill level, the more sportsman like they are and no cheating/sharking. These people don't need to shark/cheat to win. They use their energy to work on improving their playing, not on getting the other player to play worse.
<hr /></blockquote>

You never have and currently don't ever play for fairly large sums of money, do you?

SKennedy
01-25-2008, 04:26 PM
I know the question wasn't directed at me but.....No, I generally don't play for money, but have in the past and likely may again at some point (no big stakes). However, while I'll play a "friendly" game against people I really don't know or know anything about, I only play for money against those who I know or have a decent reputation.
I won't have anything at all to do with a snake....one way or the other. The same applies to poker. I play folks I already know, or those I know have vouched for. Too many crazy people out there who are willing to do anything for a few dollars. If I'm going to get my arse kicked, or worse, I want it to be for something worthwhile.

Artemus
01-25-2008, 05:34 PM
The point I was trying to make to Billy Bob is that some of the best players out there, pros-roadies-shortstops,use ALL the tricks of the trade to get the money. First, you get lured in just as smooth as a carny barker having you pay to see the hot naked dancing hermaphrodite, or cajoled-challenged-embarrassed, and then the sharking and bickering for money and spot, and then some additional moves put on during the game to up the bet or the spot along with getting inside someone's brain. It's a totally different world. But most of them are as smooth as silk, not apparent snakes. And even if they are, you can't help but like them. (most of the time)

SKennedy
01-25-2008, 06:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> The point I was trying to make to Billy Bob is that some of the best players out there, pros-roadies-shortstops,use ALL the tricks of the trade to get the money. First, you get lured in just as smooth as a carny barker having you pay to see the hot naked dancing hermaphrodite, or cajoled-challenged-embarrassed, and then the sharking and bickering for money and spot, and then some additional moves put on during the game to up the bet or the spot along with getting inside someone's brain. It's a totally different world. But most of them are as smooth as silk, not apparent snakes. And even if they are, you can't help but like them. (most of the time) <hr /></blockquote>
Sometimes pool is just the game within the larger game? And in those situations, you don't mind losing to be a part of the show?

Billy_Bob
01-26-2008, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> You never have and currently don't ever play for fairly large sums of money, do you? <hr /></blockquote>

No I don't, have not. I was talking about people in my area and local money tournaments.

I do know what you are saying though.