PDA

View Full Version : lights will guide you



spaur
01-21-2008, 04:19 PM
I was playing the other night and an older man walked up and told me he'd been watching me aim my shots. He said I was thinking too hard and then he said, "Have you ever noticed the lights?" He then pointed down at one of the balls and showed me that where the light hits the ball tells me where I should hit the ball. He told me to always trust the lights, they'll be correct 99% of the time. I'm still confused with it. I completely trust him in what he's saying, he's really good, but I just don't understand how to use the lights...

Anybody use this method? How?

Scott Lee
01-21-2008, 04:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote spaur:</font><hr> He told me to always trust the lights, they'll be correct 99% of the time. I'm still confused with it. I completely trust him in what he's saying, he's really good, but I just don't understand how to use the lights...
<hr /></blockquote>

This is an old wive's tale (and certainly not true even half the time), and if you "trust" him just because he plays well, I've got a bridge in Arizona I'd like to sell you. Find a qualified instructor and take a lesson. You'll learn more about how to stroke correctly, which is what makes aiming easy to begin with.

Scott Lee

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 05:50 PM
Scott, I got that same "tip" when I first began playing...another tip concerned aiming where the two shadows converged behind the CB. (Don't remember exactly...but did you teach me that one?) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
01-21-2008, 06:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Scott, I got that same "tip" when I first began playing...another tip concerned aiming where the two shadows converged behind the CB. (Don't remember exactly...but did you teach me that one?) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Wolf,
I promise to give you the wild 8 if you promise to use one of those two methods every time you shoot! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 08:14 PM
Such a deal!!!!
I do use the half ball method as the reference point to adjust my aim. On the 8 ft'rs up here, it's almost a "can't miss" method

Fran Crimi
01-21-2008, 09:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote spaur:</font><hr> I was playing the other night and an older man walked up and told me he'd been watching me aim my shots. He said I was thinking too hard and then he said, "Have you ever noticed the lights?" He then pointed down at one of the balls and showed me that where the light hits the ball tells me where I should hit the ball. He told me to always trust the lights, they'll be correct 99% of the time. I'm still confused with it. I completely trust him in what he's saying, he's really good, but I just don't understand how to use the lights...

Anybody use this method? How? <hr /></blockquote>


You're not alone. Many of us were told this method and it's always been passed down by somebody old. I don't know if anyone has ever bothered to try to figure out just how it works, and if it really does. I think the light has to be directly over the center of the table for it to work. That's about as far as a few of us who tried to figure it out have gotten. If the light is off-center, you'll get a false reading.

I'd be curious if any of the members of the scientific community would like to take a crack at figuring it out.

IMO, too many people relied on the lights for us to completely disregard it, even though it's considered an antiquated system. I think there may be an underlying truth there somewhere.

Fran

1Time
01-21-2008, 09:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote spaur:</font><hr> He told me to always trust the lights, they'll be correct 99% of the time. <hr /></blockquote>
This aiming system is complete B.S. No one who shoots a good stick pays attention to reflections on object balls.

CarolNYC
01-22-2008, 05:59 AM
Hi,
I know someone who shoots like this-the reflection spot on the object ball is suppose to be the aiming spot to pocket it-who knows
Carol

DeadCrab
01-22-2008, 06:01 AM
My first post to this board was on my observations that the light reflections on billiard balls obeyed the physical laws of convex mirrors. Unfortunately, over a year later, I have not found any practical application for this. It is not plausible that reflections from overhead lights could in any way direct accurate aiming.

Artemus
01-22-2008, 06:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I'd be curious if any of the members of the scientific community would like to take a crack at figuring it out.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I think you'll find some of your answers in this thread:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=79814&amp;highlight=aiming+lights

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-06.pdf

Bob Jewett posted in there. He's a pool scientist, isn't he?

randyg
01-22-2008, 07:26 AM
Is the light spot where I aim or where I contact th OB?????SPF=randyg

Artemus
01-22-2008, 08:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Is the light spot where I aim or where I contact th OB?????SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>

You're asking me?? I have NO CLUE. I have a 4 lamp light fixtue over my table and there are 4 lights on the OB and 4 lights on the CB. If you can tell me which light on either one or both that I should be using in the matchup, I'll give it a try.

CarolNYC
01-22-2008, 08:27 AM
This is interesting-shoot lights out-it seems most mention "oldtimer"-I wonder if this was the system?
Hmmmmmmmmm..........
Carol

Fran Crimi
01-22-2008, 08:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I'd be curious if any of the members of the scientific community would like to take a crack at figuring it out.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I think you'll find some of your answers in this thread:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=79814&amp;highlight=aiming+lights

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-06.pdf

Bob Jewett posted in there. He's a pool scientist, isn't he? <hr /></blockquote>


Honestly, not anything I didn't already know. I know Ron V very well. Lots of his stuff is good and he's got good sources and a lot of knowledge.

I'd like to see someone really take the lead in this---form a hypothesis and then set out to test it.

Did I just figure out who you are??

Fran

Artemus
01-22-2008, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I'd be curious if any of the members of the scientific community would like to take a crack at figuring it out.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I'd like to see someone really take the lead in this---form a hypothesis and then set out to test it.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

How can you test something that never has the same variables? Like I mentioned, I have 4 light dots on both the OB and CB. There are NO dots on a rod flourescent. What happens on a 3 lamp light fixture? What happens if one light fixture is set higher or lower than another light fixture?

Regards,
Tom Selleck

Billy_Bob
01-22-2008, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> How can you test something that never has the same variables? Like I mentioned, I have 4 light dots on both the OB and CB. There are NO dots on a rod flourescent. What happens on a 3 lamp light fixture? What happens if one light fixture is set higher or lower than another light fixture? <hr /></blockquote>

Right. In the past I have read about aiming using the reflected light off the balls. But where I have played, there are all sorts of different light fixtures. One place has a table size ceiling of lights above each table, not just a center fixture.

Because I can't rely on always having the same type fixture mounted the same height above every table, I saw no point in using this system. I could imagine learning this at home, then going to a tournament with different fixtures!

Fran Crimi
01-22-2008, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I'd be curious if any of the members of the scientific community would like to take a crack at figuring it out.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I'd like to see someone really take the lead in this---form a hypothesis and then set out to test it.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

How can you test something that never has the same variables? Like I mentioned, I have 4 light dots on both the OB and CB. There are NO dots on a rod flourescent. What happens on a 3 lamp light fixture? What happens if one light fixture is set higher or lower than another light fixture?

Regards,
Tom Selleck <hr /></blockquote>


Of course, Mr. Selleck, if the light variables keep changing I would imagine such testing to be impossible. But on any given table, the position of the light fixture is constant, as is the type of light, number of bulbs.

I think it's about finding your reference point, (and the standard being the fixture at dead center and slight adjustments made from table to table) kind of like the banking system of finding a point off the table and then always referring to that point for that particular bank, even as the balls change position, but you still have to adjust for the condition of the cushions --- such as if a particular cushion may be banking short.

And just like that bank system, there are limits where certain shots are out of range. I think the light system is very similar to that.

But it's been passed down over the years by people who didn't understand it and it wound up all jumbled up where it is today.

That's my theory.

Fran

Deeman3
01-22-2008, 09:56 AM
One of the first things I heard from the oldies was how to shoot the lights back in about 1965! I asked them to show me but noone could ever produce results that were better than a good aim point. It seems to be one of those things where, "Louie does it real good!" but, of course, Louie is never around. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I believe if this were a true shortcut, it would be common knowledge by now. I could be wrong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

wolfdancer
01-22-2008, 10:14 AM
Had you mastered the system....your game would be light years ahead by now, but your wallet might be lighter....
That system only "worked" with the old warehouse type fixtures,using incandescent bulbs. (from what I was told)
But you also needed this important accessory to filter out the wrong reflections....

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31W538TJG8L._AA280_.jpg

Deeman3
01-22-2008, 10:18 AM
I hereby yield to your older and wiser knowledge of this system. Didn't they use pullys to run the lights in your day? No, no, it was oil fired lanterns, I remember now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
01-22-2008, 10:28 AM
I think we'd all look cute in that,Jack-but, I think I'll stick with my Ray-Bans /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol

CarolNYC
01-22-2008, 10:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
oil fired lanterns <hr /></blockquote>
Ha HA HA!

Artemus
01-22-2008, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I think it's about finding your reference point, (and the standard being the fixture at dead center and slight adjustments made from table to table)

That's my theory.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

IMO, there are more reliable reference points than the possibility of changing light locations from one table to the next or trying to interpret the correct methodology of a system that was originally determined by heliography.

Those reference points are the CENTER of the OB and CB and the EDGE of the OB and CB. The center never changes and neither does the 1 1/8" in both directions to the edge.

That's my theory. (not sure if either one of us make for great theoreticians at this point)

Tom

P.S. Maybe it would just be better to make Elephant Beautiful balls as the official ball. There are plenty of reference points to work with.

Fran Crimi
01-22-2008, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I think it's about finding your reference point, (and the standard being the fixture at dead center and slight adjustments made from table to table)

That's my theory.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

IMO, there are more reliable reference points than the possibility of changing light locations from one table to the next or trying to interpret the correct methodology of a system that was originally determined by heliography.

Those reference points are the CENTER of the OB and CB and the EDGE of the OB and CB. The center never changes and neither does the 1 1/8" in either direction.

That's my theory. (not sure if either one of us make for great theoreticians at this point)

Tom <hr /></blockquote>

Yup, you could be right, but the point of discussion here is not which system is best or which reference points are better but whether or not the light system is real. I think it could be.

Fran

SKennedy
01-22-2008, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Had you mastered the system....your game would be light years ahead by now, but your wallet might be lighter....
That system only "worked" with the old warehouse type fixtures,using incandescent bulbs. (from what I was told)
But you also needed this important accessory to filter out the wrong reflections....

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31W538TJG8L._AA280_.jpg <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Wolf! As a matter of fact, my grandfather (born in 1911) was a very talented player and he told me that he would wear a visor cap when he played. His reason was that it helped him focus his eyes where they needed to be and helped avoid distractions. He said this was especially true (finding the visor helpful) as he got older.

Fran Crimi
01-22-2008, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> One of the first things I heard from the oldies was how to shoot the lights back in about 1965! I asked them to show me but noone could ever produce results that were better than a good aim point. It seems to be one of those things where, "Louie does it real good!" but, of course, Louie is never around. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I believe if this were a true shortcut, it would be common knowledge by now. I could be wrong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

True, but you know as well as I do how messed up things can get over the years when they're passed down from generation to generation. I think there may be some bits of a legit system buried under all the years of misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

Fran

SKennedy
01-22-2008, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> I think we'd all look cute in that,Jack-but, I think I'll stick with my Ray-Bans /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

I assume you are joking about the Ray-Bans? But I did read or hear about someone wearing sunglasses while shooting....any benefit to that? I always like the table to be as well lit as possible....lots of light.

Artemus
01-22-2008, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
Yup, you could be right, but the point of discussion here is not which system is best or which reference points are better but whether or not the light system is real. I think it could be.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Oh, I definitely think the light system is real. I also think Tinker Bell, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny are real. I KNOW the tooth fairy is real because she left a lot of money for me when I was a kid. Santa Claus was real because he left a bunch of presents and still does. Easter Bunny left candy.

I can't remember ever getting something from Tinker Bell (or anything from the lights aiming system) but I still think they're real.

From everything in print, it seems like Ron V. is the country expert on the light aiming system. Since you know him, call that boy up and drain his brain on everything he knows. Make sure he leaves NOTHING out.

wolfdancer
01-22-2008, 11:39 AM
the green visors seemed to be de rigueur in the good old days.
I'm ready for one myself now.....

CarolNYC
01-22-2008, 11:46 AM
Yes, just joking /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
But I did read or hear about someone wearing sunglasses while shooting....any benefit to that <hr /></blockquote>
That, I've never seen or heard-I have no idea.......interesting!
Carol

Bambu
01-22-2008, 11:56 AM
I was thiking the same thing. Maybe years ago all the flourescent bulbs were the same, or whatever was used as lighting before that. That would make any system based on lighting at least more consistent.

Artemus
01-22-2008, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>
That, I've never seen or heard-I have no idea.......interesting!
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

Light colored sunglasses may help those who suffer from light sensitivity and get migraines, even as little as pool table lights.

OTOH, you might want to try these:

http://www.myholistichealthshop.com/EyeLights.html

Cornerman
01-22-2008, 12:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote spaur:</font><hr> I was playing the other night and an older man walked up and told me he'd been watching me aim my shots. He said I was thinking too hard and then he said, "Have you ever noticed the lights?" He then pointed down at one of the balls and showed me that where the light hits the ball tells me where I should hit the ball. He told me to always trust the lights, they'll be correct 99% of the time. I'm still confused with it. I completely trust him in what he's saying, he's really good, but I just don't understand how to use the lights...

Anybody use this method? How? <hr /></blockquote>The lights reflecting off the object ball will often end at some reference that you can see and use. If you so choose to. Most of us at some point or another will use whateve reference point on the cueball or object ball that we can, whether it's to "see" center ball (top or base of the cueball) or gauge the difference between straight in and almost straight in (e.g., using the base shadows).

For people using fractional aiming or ball-to-ball relational aiming, the last light or the end of the fluorescent light often will end at about 1/4 ball.

Fred

SKennedy
01-22-2008, 01:18 PM
Green visors to match the cloth? Nice to know color-coordination was so important....did they have green chalk back then? All I can rememeber from my early years was blue chalk only.

Artemus
01-22-2008, 04:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> The lights reflecting off the object ball will often end at some reference that you can see and use. If you so choose to. Most of us at some point or another will use whateve reference point on the cueball or object ball that we can, whether it's to "see" center ball (top or base of the cueball) or gauge the difference between straight in and almost straight in (e.g., using the base shadows).

For people using fractional aiming or ball-to-ball relational aiming, the last light or the end of the fluorescent light often will end at about 1/4 ball.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

If both OB and CB are almost directly under the lights from head to foot or foot to head, you get a straight row of reflections like an arrow through center ball of both. It has no benefit at all for a reference point if you can cut the ball into either side or corner pocket.

If the OB is either to the left or right of the lights and again shooting from head to foot or foot to head and the CB is on either side of the lights, you could probably get an aim or reference point to focus on.

If you're shooting from one side to the other side with the balls almost anywhere on the table, you get a lot more aim or reference points to focus on regarding the OB since the lights are going across the balls horizontally.

It still comes down to choosing the right light from the wrong light. If you try to match up a light on the CB to a light on the OB thats similar to equal and opposite aiming, it's too inaccurate and like a Chinese jigsaw puzzle. You could use a light on the CB to aim at the edge of the OB or elsewhere, but again, without hours and hours of trial and error, there seems to be a lot of error.

Maybe the old timers did use this system with some degree of success, but they also used washing machines with wringers on them, cars that were slow and broke down often, and used telegrams as a way for long distance communication. Sure, they all got the job done, but not like today's inventions.

I think I'll just go with the "new and improved" methods.

Bob_Jewett
01-22-2008, 04:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote spaur:</font><hr> ... Anybody use this method? How? <hr /></blockquote>
Ron Vitello has a course workbook with lots of photos illustrating the apparent positions of lights for various shots in various positions on the table. That is certainly the best explanation you will ever get in print of how to use the reflections to help aim.

The way the system probably works for most -- since it requires either a tremendous amount of knowledge or lots of compensation -- is like a lot of poorly specified and technically unsound systems work: it draws your attention to the shot within a familiar framework. Your subconscious will do the rest.

wolfdancer
01-22-2008, 05:12 PM
Thta's the best explanation that I've ever read.
At the old Park Bowl, they used the "shadow convergence" method..
"Putt,Putt" has it's own unique aiming system that ignores the pocket also......but that one works!!

Heretic
01-23-2008, 06:01 PM
I have a three lamp fixture ( older Budweiser lamp, that came from a bar I helped with the remodel in). The three "Dots" on the ballcan be very confusing because I have the elephant brand "swirl" balls on my table

SKennedy
01-24-2008, 10:51 AM
It's funny that I had never heard anything about using "lights" and the glare off the balls until this thread came along, and lo and behold this last league night (Tuesday) a new player on our team mentioned it to me. He stated that an older player had told him about it! My advice to him was to disregard that information. However, at that point I started to see if the glare off the balls in any way matched the angles for the shots, etc. Our tables had the standard 3-light set-up. My conclusion was that there was nothing noteworthy as a result of examining glare other than to waste time (and maybe shark your opponent!).

wolfdancer
01-24-2008, 11:10 AM
Here's another "old timers" tale....but this one works...
The "spot on the wall" for three rail kick shots

wolfdancer
01-24-2008, 11:14 AM
The lights will guide you.....but
" a child shall lead you "

SKennedy
01-24-2008, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Here's another "old timers" tale....but this one works...
The "spot on the wall" for three rail kick shots <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not familiar with that one....and I'm sure many others as well! Is it like the mirror thing?

Fran Crimi
01-24-2008, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Here's another "old timers" tale....but this one works...
The "spot on the wall" for three rail kick shots <hr /></blockquote>

It's not a tale. It's legit and it's referred to as a spot or mark off the table --- it doesn't have to be on the wall, and it's exactly what I compared to the lights system in another post, which works on the same premise, where if you aim at the same light reference point on shots at certain positions on the table and within a certain range, just like the mark off the table system, it will lead you to the same target pocket. There IS method to the madness. I don't know why everybody is so quick to poo poo something like the lights system when they don't even understand it nor have they conducted enough tests either prove or disprove it.

Fran

BigRigTom
01-24-2008, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Here's another "old timers" tale....but this one works...
The "spot on the wall" for three rail kick shots <hr /></blockquote>

It's not a tale. It's legit and it's referred to as a spot off the table --- it doesn't have to be on the wall, and it's exactly what I compared to the lights system, which works on the same premise, where if you aim at the same light reference point on shots at various positions on the table, it will lead you to the same target pocket. There IS method to the madness. I don't know why everybody is so quick to poo poo something they don't even understand.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I can attest to the fact that the spot on the wall method does work.
I have practiced this by using a 28" bar stool on which I set a piece of chalk as a ball tee, put any ball on the chalk like a golf tee then place the bar stool in a position so that the ball on the chalk is exactly 1 table's width from and in line with the corner pocket. You can then use that ball on the chalk as an aiming target to bank into the oposite corner pocket.
It is better that the spot on the wall for practice because you can move it around according to which pocket you are trying to shoot and which bank shots you want to practice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Some one wrote and article about that method once (don't remember who) and I just followed his advise to test it out....IT DOES WORK!

Artemus
01-24-2008, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I don't know why everybody is so quick to poo poo something like the lights system when they don't even understand it nor have they conducted enough tests either prove or disprove it.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Let me say it before one of the rocket scientists do.

There's only ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE regarding the benefits and accuracy of the system and it DOES NOT, CANNOT, and WILL NOT stand up to rigors of GEOMETRIC CALCULATIONS. That having been said, it must be bogus.

(the aforementioned statement does not necessarily reflect the views of the poster) (the poster has conducted many tests on the light system but has missed FARRRR too many shots to come to any other conclusion but negative)

Regards
Normally a "LIGHTS OUT" shooter
Art Dimmer Switch

P.S. I think most that may "poo poo" the system is because when they tried it the result was "ca ca". /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

BigRigTom
01-24-2008, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote spaur:</font><hr> I was playing the other night and an older man walked up and told me he'd been watching me aim my shots. He said I was thinking too hard and then he said, "Have you ever noticed the lights?" He then pointed down at one of the balls and showed me that where the light hits the ball tells me where I should hit the ball. He told me to always trust the lights, they'll be correct 99% of the time. I'm still confused with it. I completely trust him in what he's saying, he's really good, but I just don't understand how to use the lights...

Anybody use this method? How? <hr /></blockquote>

I wonder which of the lights I would aim at on the 1 ball to break this rack correctly...if you look closely there are 7 of them!

http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum/images/9-Ball-Rack-400x300.jpg
The same 7 lights are reflected in ALL 9 balls.
Which light would I aim at for which pocket if that ball were sitting there by itself?

The system CAN NOT WORK reliably.
I can see using the light as a reference point and shooting at in a case where I felt that it happened to ALSO be by chance in line with where I wish to make contact on the OB. Anyother time I would choose to ignore the "shine" and that is why I wear Raybans when I play in a dark bar. Those bright lights hurt my eyes!

Fran Crimi
01-24-2008, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I don't know why everybody is so quick to poo poo something like the lights system when they don't even understand it nor have they conducted enough tests either prove or disprove it.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Let me say it before one of the rocket scientists do.

There's only ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE regarding the benefits and accuracy of the system and it DOES NOT, CANNOT, and WILL NOT stand up to rigors of GEOMETRIC CALCULATIONS. That having been said, it must be bogus.

(the aforementioned statement does not necessarily reflect the views of the poster) (the poster has conducted many tests on the light system but has missed FARRRR too many shots to come to any other conclusion but negative)

Regards
Normally a "LIGHTS OUT" shooter
Art Dimmer Switch

P.S. I think most that may "poo poo" the system is because when they tried it the result was "ca ca". /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Dear ca ca:

What was it that they tried? Nobody here except for Bob Jewett having a couple hour conversation with Ron V, said that they experimented with it for more than a few shots and even then, they didn't even know what they were supposed to be looking at. I would hardly call that trying or experimenting.

Fran

Fran Crimi
01-24-2008, 02:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote spaur:</font><hr> I was playing the other night and an older man walked up and told me he'd been watching me aim my shots. He said I was thinking too hard and then he said, "Have you ever noticed the lights?" He then pointed down at one of the balls and showed me that where the light hits the ball tells me where I should hit the ball. He told me to always trust the lights, they'll be correct 99% of the time. I'm still confused with it. I completely trust him in what he's saying, he's really good, but I just don't understand how to use the lights...

Anybody use this method? How? <hr /></blockquote>

I wonder which of the lights I would aim at on the 1 ball to break this rack correctly...if you look closely there are 7 of them!

http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum/images/9-Ball-Rack-400x300.jpg
The same 7 lights are reflected in ALL 9 balls.
Which light would I aim at for which pocket if that ball were sitting there by itself?

The system CAN NOT WORK reliably.
I can see using the light as a reference point and shooting at in a case where I felt that it happened to ALSO be by chance in line with where I wish to make contact on the OB. Anyother time I would choose to ignore the "shine" and that is why I wear Raybans when I play in a dark bar. Those bright lights hurt my eyes! <hr /></blockquote>


<font color="blue"> WHAT??? You have something against smiley faces?? ---- Check out the reflections. Pretty funny.

Fran
</font color>

Artemus
01-24-2008, 04:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
Dear ca ca:
What was it that they tried? Nobody here except for Bob Jewett having a couple hour conversation with Ron V, said that they experimented with it for more than a few shots and even then, they didn't even know what they were supposed to be looking at. I would hardly call that trying or experimenting.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I can tell you for a fact that I learned about the lights so long ago that Bob Jewett was still considering whether to be an auto mechanic or go to college. I think he made the right decision, but based on what auto mechanics get paid now, who knows.

Anyway, I had one of those "old timers" showing it to me first hand. I could never quite grasp it or have it work consistently, especially under pressure. So, many moons ago I gave it my all for a decent length of time before abandoning it. As the years passed by with nothing better to do, I'd take the system out of storage and give it a go again. Same result. Back to storage.

Now here's what I can tell you that I tried and see myself. When you're shooting across the shorter side of the table, depending on the number of lights above, they'll lay out horizontally across the top front of the OB and CB. If you're a contact point aimer to begin with, you can pretty much focus on one of the lights as your contact point. If you're a sectional aimer, 1/2 ball, 1/4, 1/8, it'll also give you something to focus on. You can use the lights on the CB to line up with the center of the OB or edge, 1/4 ball, or edge, as long as you pick the right light. There are a number of ways to see the shot using the lights to focus on when shooting in the side direction. If you're going to try to link up one of the lights on the CB to one of the lights to the OB, you might get lucky here and there, but for the most part it's unreliable. Let me restate, it's VERY unreliable.

Shooting lengthwise on the table, the lights move from vertical center if directly under the lights to a point half way between vertical and horizontal on either top half of the balls. I find it to be worthless.

If Ron V knows something the rest of the world doesn't and it really is consistently effective, then he should be making a mint teaching it.

What do YOU see and how much have you experimented with it?
What were your results? We're looking to YOU as our leader to show the way to Nirvana.

Regards

Ca Ca Pants

(don't think I want to go to Fran's house for dinner when she's serving up her Polynesian Poo Poo platter)

SKennedy
01-24-2008, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Here's another "old timers" tale....but this one works...
The "spot on the wall" for three rail kick shots <hr /></blockquote>

It's not a tale. It's legit and it's referred to as a spot or mark off the table --- it doesn't have to be on the wall, and it's exactly what I compared to the lights system in another post, which works on the same premise, where if you aim at the same light reference point on shots at certain positions on the table and within a certain range, just like the mark off the table system, it will lead you to the same target pocket. There IS method to the madness. I don't know why everybody is so quick to poo poo something like the lights system when they don't even understand it nor have they conducted enough tests either prove or disprove it.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Don't think anyone, or at least recently, had poo poo'd the spot on the wall thing yet......and I only provided my own limited observations about the lights on the balls with 3 lights over the table....
I just assumed the spot on the wall is similar to the mirror image method for bank shots, etc., but instead of imagining another pocket along an imaginary rail, the "spot" or light on the wall provides a real reference point. But don't know....I'm always open to things that will simplify and help my game....without making it more burdensome and complex.

SKennedy
01-24-2008, 05:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Here's another "old timers" tale....but this one works...
The "spot on the wall" for three rail kick shots <hr /></blockquote>

It's not a tale. It's legit and it's referred to as a spot off the table --- it doesn't have to be on the wall, and it's exactly what I compared to the lights system, which works on the same premise, where if you aim at the same light reference point on shots at various positions on the table, it will lead you to the same target pocket. There IS method to the madness. I don't know why everybody is so quick to poo poo something they don't even understand.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I can attest to the fact that the spot on the wall method does work.
I have practiced this by using a 28" bar stool on which I set a piece of chalk as a ball tee, put any ball on the chalk like a golf tee then place the bar stool in a position so that the ball on the chalk is exactly 1 table's width from and in line with the corner pocket. You can then use that ball on the chalk as an aiming target to bank into the oposite corner pocket.
It is better that the spot on the wall for practice because you can move it around according to which pocket you are trying to shoot and which bank shots you want to practice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Some one wrote and article about that method once (don't remember who) and I just followed his advise to test it out....IT DOES WORK! <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, the method has at least 2 different names and is explained in 2 different ways, but in the end are the same method. The one you describe I think is what is called the "mirror-image" method. I like it best since it can be more readily visualized.
I don't know if he uses any particular method or not, other than instinctive experience, but eg8r banks pretty durn good...and with authority. Banking has always been one of my many weak points.

BigRigTom
01-24-2008, 05:14 PM
You 1st have to find the spot on the wall.....you can do that by sighting the shot thru the ball on the bar stool and picking you spot on the wall or have some one go over to the wall with a magic marker and draw an X then you can take away the bar stool and shoot at the X....it works!

Of course you will have to have and X for each pocket and that means 6 x's for each table so if you go to the pool hall tonight and see X's all over the fricking walls you'll know some one is ready for you....he he /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

SKennedy
01-24-2008, 05:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> You 1st have to find the spot on the wall.....you can do that by sighting the shot thru the ball on the bar stool and picking you spot on the wall or have some one go over to the wall with a magic marker and draw an X then you can take away the bar stool and shoot at the X....it works!

Of course you will have to have and X for each pocket and that means 6 x's for each table so if you go to the pool hall tonight and see X's all over the fricking walls you'll know some one is ready for you....he he /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Now that is funny! I have actually asked someone to stand where the mirror image of a pocket would be. Of course, I always miss and it only confirms for the individual I enlisted that I really am NUTS!

However, you only need 3 X's on one wall, but you need a wall on each side of the table. Better yet, Im going to start taking me a full mirror that is the same length and 1/2 the width of the table. That way, I can ask someone to hold it on the rail and just bank away. An actual mirror would be much better than lights or X's!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
01-24-2008, 05:57 PM
I wasn't knocking the spot system...I have a few videos that teach it. The lights, I don't have a clue about...but must be something to it for so many to use it.
But I think one is better off by focusing their aim on a real target....what would the feedback on a missed "lighting" aim be...
Didn't the new florescent lights, with a diffuser screen do away with that system?

Fran Crimi
01-25-2008, 01:28 PM
Well, my story with the lights is short: I played around with it for about 6 months and came up with a few theories but all unsubstantiated and nothing worthy of sharing. But I found that there were too many correlations and 'coincidences' for the concept to be thrown away as junk. I think there's something there worth studying if the right person had the time, the ability, and the inclination.

Fran

Artemus
01-25-2008, 01:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Well, my story with the lights is short: I played around with it for about 6 months and came up with a few theories but all unsubstantiated and nothing worthy of sharing. But I found that there were too many correlations and 'coincidences' for the concept to be thrown away as junk. I think there's something there worth studying if the right person had the time, the ability, and the inclination.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I'd have to say, all in all, I agree with your summation. But on the other hand, I don't think that all of those correlations and coincidences could ever be determined to be rock solid under any and all circumstances enough to be close to the ultimate or Holy Grail of aiming systems, regardless of the length of time invested. I put longer than 6 months into it, cumulatively, and never came out with something better than other types of aiming and ways of visualizing the shot. I think I was quite creative and used a lot of imagination in my experiments with the lights, so it wasn't just chasing after the same dead end stuff.

Heretic
01-27-2008, 09:32 PM
there is a guy on my pool league team who uses the lights a lot. It is funny to reach up and bump the light while we are practicing....It drives him nuts, and he has to stop and steady the light, while cussing the rest of us.

SKennedy
01-28-2008, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Heretic:</font><hr> there is a guy on my pool league team who uses the lights a lot. It is funny to reach up and bump the light while we are practicing....It drives him nuts, and he has to stop and steady the light, while cussing the rest of us. <hr /></blockquote>

And how good a player is he? What skill level?

Heretic
01-28-2008, 08:00 PM
He is a very good player in practice, but it is hard to give him a consistant skill level. He loses his concentration too easily, gets frustrated, and then plays poorly.

SKennedy
01-30-2008, 11:45 AM
I suggest you just keep bumping the lights..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif