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CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 12:14 PM
Have you ever fouled and your opponent didnt see you and you continued to shoot or it may have crossed your mind to continue,but you did or didnt?
Have you had/know an opponent who is dishonest and what did they do?
Have you ever heard of players purposely losing to help advance another and do you think this type of behavior exists today?


Superbilliards,March 99',my first ever tournament play (I started regionals April99')I was in the 3/4th spot,hill-hill game,shooting at the 8,I tapped my cueball,glanced at opponent who wasnt looking and for that split-second could have gotten away with it,but,picked up the cueball and handed it to her-took 3/4th,but in reality 4th!

Carol

mikepage
01-25-2008, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>
Have you ever fouled and your opponent didnt see you and you continued to shoot or it may have crossed your mind to continue,but you did or didnt?

[snip Carol does the right thing]<hr /></blockquote>

No no no, you're doing this all wrong Carol. If you want to entice others to come clean and cleanse their souls, you can't open with a story of YOU taking the HIGH ROAD. !!

Imagine starting an AA meeting with, "Hi, my name is Carol, and I am not an alcoholic."

I suggest you start over ... ;-)

Sid_Vicious
01-25-2008, 12:46 PM
Yes, but the opponent does have the obligation to watch the game, so I don't lose sleep over taking a freebie, especially if it's team sports. My being at the table should warrant their attention, plus it ain't my job to call his/her fouls for them. I do have to admit though that I usually play better over time if I remain totally honest by calling fouls on myself. The best of all worlds would be if all players were honest enough to call their fouls voluntarily, but that's not happening today.

I have another one for you Carol. I played a league match the other day and the opponent went for a 2-rail kick to get out of a trap, the CB seemingly missed the OB by a hair and the guy called his foul. Here's the deal though...I absolutely saw the slight wobble, he HIT the ball! I asked him if he was sure, he said yes, so I didn't argue against myself. How would you have addressed that scenario???sid

Deeman3
01-25-2008, 01:02 PM
No. If you'll cheat at the game, you'll cheat elsewhere. How you behave when no one is watching shows your character much beeter than anything else.

Cheating shows how much you think of yourself and says more than anything else about you. We are our brother's keeper. I am proud of you Carol.

wolfdancer
01-25-2008, 01:20 PM
Carol, I think the only one you cheat in the long run, by being dishonest, is oneself. You may have lost your chance to win the tournament...but I applaud you for calling that foul on yourself, and think if you had won, you would have a pang of guilt.
In the Golf Movie "A Gentleman's Game" ...the story ends with the guy delivering his USGA Amateur trophy to the guy that came in second. He was doing this because he had cheated on a lost ball, and therefore "stole" the tournament.
I'm not quite so altruistic...no way I give up a USGA trophy, ( honesty has it's limits, and you have to draw the line somewhere) but I have called fouls on myself, and I'll keep on doing that....

Artemus
01-25-2008, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>
Have you ever fouled and your opponent didnt see you and you continued to shoot or it may have crossed your mind to continue,but you did or didnt?

<font color="red"> I NEVER continued to shoot nor did it ever cross my mind to continue. So I guess I didn't cheat. (because it was on pocketing the 8 in eight ball or the 9 in nine ball and nudging or raking the CB away as it was dubiously headed in the wrong direction. Game over, no need to shoot. Still not sure whether it would have gone in or not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif</font color>

Have you had/know an opponent who is dishonest and what did they do?

<font color="red"> Absolutely! They didn't pay up after making a bet. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif </font color>

Have you ever heard of players purposely losing to help advance another and do you think this type of behavior exists today?

<font color="red"> Yes and Yes </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> This is like being on that new TV show where they hook you up to a lie detector and ask 50 questions of all kinds and then try to catch you in a lie while they ask you the same questions in front of your wife.

Moderator: "Have you EVER been unfaithful to your wife while being married?"

Contestant: "Aaaah, well, lemme think and see for a minute, aaaah, I'm pretty sure I never did, NO!"

Moderator: "THAT is FALSE"

Wife: "You LYING, CHEATING, LOW-LIFE SCUM, POS! WE'RE GETTING A DIVORCE"!!
</font color>

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 02:00 PM
Mike
" and I am NOT smarter than a 5th grader"! ha ha ha

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 02:06 PM
Hi Sid,
[ QUOTE ]
I have another one for you Carol. I played a league match the other day and the opponent went for a 2-rail kick to get out of a trap, the CB seemingly missed the OB by a hair and the guy called his foul. Here's the deal though...I absolutely saw the slight wobble, he HIT the ball! I asked him if he was sure, he said yes, so I didn't argue against myself. How would you have addressed that scenario <hr /></blockquote>
I probably would have said "I think you hit it" and if he said he didnt,I'd take it!
I had a player who fouled but pocketed the ball and when I THOUGHT she was going to sit down, she got ready to shoot and I jumped up and said "you fouled" and she played stupid and said "Oh, I did!"
After that, I lost respect for that player /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
[ QUOTE ]
but the opponent does have the obligation to watch the game <hr /></blockquote>
Absolutely!
Carol

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 02:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If you'll cheat at the game, you'll cheat elsewhere <hr /></blockquote>
Yep!
Thanks Deeman-oh,by the way, I like your tees /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 02:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
honesty has it's limits, and you have to draw the line somewhere) but I have called fouls on myself, and I'll keep on doing that.... <hr /></blockquote>
Me too! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Jack,
ONE time I was aproached by a player at a regional who asked me if she drew me, no matter the outcome, could we split the money and I just said "Play your best"-she was having financial hardships and didnt have confidence she'd win-well, I won and just lent her 100 bucks-she paid me back,but I was taken aback by the offer cause I never encountered anything like that-since this happened to me, Im wondering if players out their do this kind of thing! hmmmm
Carol

Cornerman
01-25-2008, 03:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>
Have you ever fouled and your opponent didnt see you and you continued to shoot or it may have crossed your mind to continue,but you did or didnt?<hr /></blockquote>

One time. And it haunts me to this day. Karma took care of me. I fouled. I looked over That [censored] wasn't paying attention. I didn't call it. I knocked in the 8-ball early soon thereafter.

In fact, there was pretty much just one [censored] in that match.


Fred

Cydpkt
01-25-2008, 03:41 PM
I have mixed feeling on this since I feel it is my opponents obligation to watch the game. Just like my opponent should ask me to wait if he wants someone to watch the shot. Is it my job to tell my opponent he/she might want to have someone watch my shot? Does a persons beliefs change if its a league match or a tournament? I have called fouls on myself, but I have also called a foul on someone who denied it was a foul. Their feels were since I didn't ask to have the shot watched then I couldn't call it a foul. Cue ball hit the object ball, ran into a rail then returned back and hit the tip of his cue. He got the message when I asked someone to watch his every shot during the next game.

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 03:44 PM
Hi Art,
I apologize to you and everyone-I dont want this to lead to a negative thng about the sport-what got me to thinking about the dishonesty thing is that, a friend of mines son plays a 9 ball league in Penns.-(previously he has asked me things -but yesterday was the kicker)-he phoned me saying, when the match was at 4-4, the opponent won the next and when he looked at the score , it ws 6-4-he pointed it out,but the opponent denied putting up an extra point-he called the league director over ,he SUGGESTED they begin again, the opponent refused and the league director said theres nothing he can do about it and continue play-my friends son lost-
I got upset because I THINK the director should have DEMANDED they replay and I dont know what the rule is when you have word against word of players? Is there a penalty for cheating? How do you prove it?
The 2 experiences I mentioned were the only two things I personally encountered!
I just dont know /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Carol

wolfdancer
01-25-2008, 04:00 PM
Carol, I don't see anything negative about the thread, and no need for you to apologize to anyone. I played golf long before I ever played pool, and got used to the "policing" oneself idea. Pool seems to have a different idea about fouls...if the opponent didn't see it, it didn't happen. Once you realize that, then it's your responsibility to either watch the shot, or call someone over to watch it.
I usually tell the other guy, if the hit is going to be close....I'll accept his call on it.
But I'm just playing league, or in a small tournament...if there was some serious money (and that is any that comes out of my pocket) I'd be like Rick Barry....who played in the NBA and argued every foul call....still the best "pure" shooter that I ever saw though....

SKennedy
01-25-2008, 04:04 PM
If I'm playing a good friend and the game means nothing, I may pull something just for grins, but let him/her know I did it. A friend of mine was playing me and I wasn't paying attention. He's a very poor player. He kept giving me tough games and I found out later he was pocketing the balls by hand when I wasn't looking. It was all in fun and everyone there knew what he was doing but me. In a legitimate game...no I would not cheat. If I foul and the other team or individual does not see it, I tell them. I appreciate honesty in others and expect it from others, so why not myself? I just don't care much for liars and cheaters. If I can't beat you fair and square, then I don't want the game.

SKennedy
01-25-2008, 04:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> I have mixed feeling on this since I feel it is my opponents obligation to watch the game. Just like my opponent should ask me to wait if he wants someone to watch the shot. Is it my job to tell my opponent he/she might want to have someone watch my shot? Does a persons beliefs change if its a league match or a tournament? I have called fouls on myself, but I have also called a foul on someone who denied it was a foul. Their feels were since I didn't ask to have the shot watched then I couldn't call it a foul. Cue ball hit the object ball, ran into a rail then returned back and hit the tip of his cue. He got the message when I asked someone to watch his every shot during the next game. <hr /></blockquote>

In a tournament one night (Scotch doubles) an opponent is behind me and starts hollering foul loudly several times. I don't have a clue why he's hollering. He claimed I touched the tip to the cue ball. I didn't see it, and I never felt it either. But, I believed him and turned the cue ball over to him. I'm sure he didn't believe me when I told him I never felt the tip touch.

Deeman3
01-25-2008, 04:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>like Rick Barry....who played in the NBA and argued every foul call....still the best "pure" shooter that I ever saw though.... <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Yeah, but those underhanded foul shots, which he never missed looked too girlie. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

Artemus
01-25-2008, 04:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hi Art,
I apologize to you and everyone-I dont want this to lead to a negative thng about the sport-

<font color="red"> I think instances of bending the rules, breaking the rules, and flat out cheating or lying take place in all sports, not just pool. It also takes place in business, government, law enforcement and even the church. </font color>

I got upset because I THINK the director should have DEMANDED they replay and I dont know what the rule is when you have word against word of players? Is there a penalty for cheating? How do you prove it?

<font color="red"> Lets rearrange your sentences above to clarify. "How do you prove it? (cheating) Answer: Without enough witnesses in the majority one way or another, you can't.

"Is there a penalty for cheating". Answer: Not to my knowledge. Where is there a rule written about it in any book? Is it cheating if a person pleads stupidity or denies that he/she cheated? </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> I have to disagree with you (maybe the first time ever) about the director demanding a replay. Again, without witnesses, how would he know if it was actually your friend's son who might be confused on the score or not instead of the other kid altering it? I think he had to let them play as it stood. Don't let that New Yawka ire get the best of you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 05:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Karma took care of me <hr /></blockquote>
Hey Cuz,
Yep-I think if I didnt hand over that ball, I wouldve dogged the next match cause it would have been on my mind that I did wrong and I wouldnt have been able to focus /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 05:34 PM
Thanks Jack!
Im going to call him tomorrow and tell him what many here said about the responsibilities of a player-Im also going to tell him if he plays the guy again,call the score out-if he feels the players are shady,join another league-

[ QUOTE ]
if there was some serious money (and that is any that comes out of my pocket,I'd be like Rick Barry ....who played in the NBA and argued every foul call....<hr /></blockquote>
Go Jack,Go Jack /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Carol

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 05:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
called a foul on someone who denied it was a foul. Their feels were since I didn't ask to have the shot watched then I couldn't call it a foul. Cue ball hit the object ball, ran into a rail then returned back and hit the tip of his cue. He got the message when I asked someone to watch his every shot during the next game. <hr /></blockquote>
Excellent way to handle that-love it!
Carol

CarolNYC
01-25-2008, 05:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
he was pocketing the balls by hand <hr /></blockquote>
HA HA-I did that same thing to someone,ha ha ha!

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate honesty in others and expect it from others, so why not myself? I just don't care much for liars and cheaters. If I can't beat you fair and square, then I don't want the game. <hr /></blockquote>
Awesome!-
I do not know what shady things people might try to pull,have never encountered many and am grateful I havent!
Carol

dg-in-centralpa
01-25-2008, 08:49 PM
Carol,
In the two leagues that I play in, it is a rule and is understood that the opposing player should watch the game, and if he misses a foul, that's his fault. I supposedly missed one last night, but I didn't see it and my opponent would never call it on himself. Now at Valley Forge, I have called fouls on myself, but one match I played a few years ago, my opponent wasn't watching the game, he was too busy playing kissy face with his girlfriend. I was tired of it, and didn't call a foul on myself when I should have. Did I feel bad? No. I guess it depends on the circumstances.

Duane

Sid_Vicious
01-25-2008, 08:52 PM
"Did I feel bad? No. I guess it depends on the circumstances"

As cheap as I might sound...I totally agree. sid

wolfdancer
01-25-2008, 09:28 PM
Nobody was better at pulling up and taking a 30 ft'r.
On his free throws....it weren't purty, ....but the record stood for a few years...

av84fun
01-26-2008, 12:38 AM
I agree that the opponent has an obligation to call fouls and so it's not dishonest, per se, for a player to fail to call one on himself.

I have never NOT called a foul on myself even though it might not have been strictly dishonest not to. I call fouls on myself because I want to win...in my own mind...not on some scoreboard.

Regards,
Jim

CarolNYC
01-26-2008, 07:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
my opponent wasn't watching the game, he was too busy playing kissy face with his girlfriend. I was tired of it, and didn't call a foul on myself when I should have. Did I feel bad? No. I guess it depends on the circumstances <hr /></blockquote>
Hey Duane,
Thats just disrespectful, so it would be fair to say "if your not going to give respect,you dont deserve it?"
Valley Forge is crazy,but you have to love the energy /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol

CarolNYC
01-26-2008, 07:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The best of all worlds would be if all players were honest enough to call their fouls voluntarily, but that's not happening today.
<hr /></blockquote>
Hi Sid,
I was thinking about what you said ........pool seems to be one sport that relies on the players to be responsible,know the rules,have integrity and believe eachother will do the right thing-trust in humanity /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I watch Tennis and they have a ref at each match-pool doesnt have a ref at each table-maybe they should,ha ha ha!
Carol

Billy_Bob
01-26-2008, 10:52 AM
So far as calling fouls on myself, I always do this. This is because in the big tournaments, there will be refs there and you need to be able to win without fouling. So best to take the consequences of each foul now and learn not to foul. Best for the long run.

Also I know I fouled. I would know I did not really win, so it would not be a victory to me.

I know other players who will not call fouls on themselves and will even argue that a shot was not a foul when in fact is was (call goes to shooter in some cases), then they continue play and win this way. But when then get to a large tournament with a ref, they can't win. The fouls are called and they lose. They have not learned to play without fouling.

The only time I don't call a foul on myself is with a player who is constantly not paying attention to the game, on cell phone or whatever. I call a few fouls on myself, then get disgusted and stop calling my fouls. They need to learn to watch the game. I especially like doing this when others are watching, then after they shoot, someone points out to that player that he had ball-in-hand. If league, the player gets chastised by his teammates. They learn to pay attention.

CarolNYC
01-26-2008, 11:05 AM
I respect and AGREE with EVERYTHING you just said!
Good answer!
Carol

jjinfla
01-27-2008, 08:29 AM
Well Carol that happened back in '99 and it has stuck with you all these years? I wonder if you would still be thinking about it if you just kept shooting. You might have won the tournament and then your mind would forget about that shot and you would be thinking about how nice it was to win that tournament.

Both Earl and Karen made obvious fouls that the ref did not see and did not call them on themselves. So who am I to try and tell a pro how to play - I should just play like they do.

I play one guy who always tells me about fouls he committed during our match - after the match is over. Then he says you should pay attention and quit looking at that pretty girl over there.

Mostly though I play people who are so bad, commit so many fouls, they don't even know they are fouling, so sure I call my fouls because it doesn't matter, they are so bad I still win. Then too when I call a foul on myself where it does not matter it gets them to thinking and they start calling fouls on themselves.

Actually, the games I play it really does not matter if I win or lose so most of the times I call the fouls.

Jake

bradb
01-27-2008, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>
Have you ever fouled and your opponent didnt see you and you continued to shoot or it may have crossed your mind to continue,but you did or didnt?
Have you had/know an opponent who is dishonest and what did they do?
Have you ever heard of players purposely losing to help advance another and do you think this type of behavior exists today?


Superbilliards,March 99',my first ever tournament play (I started regionals April99')I was in the 3/4th spot,hill-hill game,shooting at the 8,I tapped my cueball,glanced at opponent who wasnt looking and for that split-second could have gotten away with it,but,picked up the cueball and handed it to her-took 3/4th,but in reality 4th!

Carol



<hr /></blockquote>

It seems there are 2 schools of thought on this. When I played snooker it was considered bad form to not immediatly call a foul on yourself if no one else saw it. It is the old British "honourable thing to do." I once watched a match final game with Jimmy White playing and he was running out to take a prize worth a great deal of money. Suddenly he stopped and called a foul on himself that no one saw, even the camera could'nt see it but Jimmy called it and lost the match.

Since I've switched to the 9" table its a different attitude. For instance failing to hit a rail is your opponents responsibility (or the refs) to see it.... you say nothing. I've learned to play by those standards but it still makes me feel a little dishonest. "Its just not Cricket you know"
-brad

CarolNYC
01-27-2008, 11:49 AM
HI Brad,
[ QUOTE ]
For instance failing to hit a rail is your opponents responsibility (or the refs) to see it.... you say nothing <hr /></blockquote>
uh-huh.....uh-oh,now the "dirt comes out in the wash" ha haha-I DID play a match where I didnt hit a rail,sat down,player asked me if I hit a rail (she wasnt watching), I said "I dont know,did I?" so NOW ,she's wondering whether she gets ball-in-hand (if NOT,she'd foul) or play where it lies ?
She played it where it lies and lost,Lesson learned-but I was dishonest-
I think reputation plays a big part in this sport! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

CarolNYC
01-27-2008, 11:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
stuck with you all these years <hr /></blockquote>
Ha ha ha ha ha-
Hiya Jake,
How are you?
It ws recalled due to a conversation with my friends son who has just been playing, a little under a year ,and tells me his experiences

[ QUOTE ]
You might have won the tournament and then your mind would forget about that shot and you would be thinking about how nice it was to win that tournament.
<hr /></blockquote>
Coulda,woulda,shoulda,Ha HA Ha! I could have been a contender /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]
I play people who are so bad, commit so many fouls, they don't even know they are fouling, so sure I call my fouls because it doesn't matter <hr /></blockquote>
Jake,your too funny!
Stay well!
Carol

BigRigTom
01-27-2008, 01:29 PM
Carol I have been sitting back reading the responses to this thread and finally I have to add my 2 cents worth.

I must admit that I have on many occassions committed a foul and had second thoughts about calling it on myself. Most of those times were in situations which, as I think back, I was playing a person whom I knew or at least supected of purposely cheating in one way or other.

We all know some players who will win any way they can and are not beyound out and out cheating if the opportunity presents itself.

I don't want to come off as a wishy washy type but I honestly think that I will play honorably as long as my opponent doesn't give me any reason to think he is anything but honorable. My Mom always said to give the other guy a high standard and good reputation to live up to and most people will try their best to not disappoint you. I have found in my 57 years that this is a true thing.

The occasional dweeb will disappoint however and I tend to develop a very bad taste for that individual and I am not always a forgiving type who just lets it go. I do sometime retaliate. It is not with pride I admit that but it is the truth. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bradb
01-27-2008, 02:50 PM
[/quote Carol]
uh-huh.....uh-oh,now the "dirt comes out in the wash" ha haha-I DID play a match where I didnt hit a rail,sat down,player asked me if I hit a rail (she wasnt watching), I said "I dont know,did I?" so NOW ,she's wondering whether she gets ball-in-hand (if NOT,she'd foul) or play where it lies ?
She played it where it lies and lost,Lesson learned-but I was dishonest-
I think reputation plays a big part in this sport! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol
<hr /></blockquote>

No guilt there Carol, she should have been watching!

I remember I was trying an outrageous attempt to a pocket a ball beyond 90 degrees. It missed and went back across table for a really nice bank shot. My opponent said nothing assuming I was trying the bank. I fessed up. He then came to the table and ran the whole rack. "Darn my hide!" ...nice guys finish last!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

dg-in-centralpa
01-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Carol,
To make it worse, some of his buddies stopped by. I missed a shot and actually went up to him and told him it was his turn, as I had missed. Sad thing is, I lost the match.

DG

jjinfla
01-27-2008, 04:35 PM
Of course then it depends on who the opponent is. If he is a real jerk then I leave it up to God to inform him. Usually God is too busy to get involved in our game of pool.

Recently I heard some pros (might have been Sigel and Grady on TV) talking about when some pros play cue ball only fouls they will intentionally move a ball with their cue or back hand to give themselves an advantage. Since that is not a foul all that can happen is that the ball is moved back. If the player doesn't know where it was and he lets the offender move it back, well, you know where the shooter will put it. That is why when someone accidently moves the balls I will always return it to where it is to my advantage which is not necessarily where it was. If he complains I just tell him that's where I saw it. Be more careful and don't move the balls next time.

There are a million ways to cheat in pool (I'll bet there are ways to rack to give yourself an advantage) and the better the player the more he knows. He better if he expects to spot the cheater.

Here is another twist. If you are watching a game will you yell out foul when you see a foul?

When there is a ref nothing is a foul until the ref calls it a foul. When Earl fouled and the ref did not see it that was not Earl's fault. Earl played it correctly. Charlie called foul. But that is meaningless. All the spectators, including the other players, called foul, but that too is meaningless. Unless the ref calls foul it is not a foul. Now had Earl said he fouled I wonder what the ref would have done. Since he did not see the foul by right he would not be allowed to call the foul. If Earl touched the CB after the shot and said foul and the ref saw that he would call a foul on Earl touching the CB. But worse he could disqualify Earl for showing up the ref.
Actually, why didn't the ref reprimand the other players for opening their mouths and showing up the ref?

Any trained ref's out there that can explain what they would do if they didn't see the foul and the player turned and said I fouled on that shot. Or, I think I fouled on that shot.

Who said this game is easy.


Jake

Bob_Jewett
01-27-2008, 06:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> ... Recently I heard some pros (might have been Sigel and Grady on TV) talking about when some pros play cue ball only fouls they will intentionally move a ball with their cue or back hand to give themselves an advantage. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, no. Even under the so-called "cue ball fouls only" rule, it is unsportsmanlike conduct to intentionally move object balls like that. Enforcing it is a different matter.

Cydpkt
01-27-2008, 11:49 PM
I accidentally bumped one of my opponents balls when setting up a shot. I stopped and told him that I moved his ball. (it only moved a couple of inches) He stepped to the table and moved the ball a couple inches in the other direction and took away my shot on the 8. He knew where it was when I bumped it. I'm not mad at the player, I learned two things that night. PAY CLOSER ATTENTION TO WHAT I'M DOING and winning sure meant a lot to that guy.

Bob_Jewett
01-28-2008, 01:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> I accidentally bumped one of my opponents balls when setting up a shot. I stopped and told him that I moved his ball. (it only moved a couple of inches) He stepped to the table and moved the ball a couple inches in the other direction and took away my shot on the 8. He knew where it was when I bumped it. I'm not mad at the player, I learned two things that night. PAY CLOSER ATTENTION TO WHAT I'M DOING and winning sure meant a lot to that guy. <hr /></blockquote>
Assuming that you are playing that the opponent has the choice of putting the ball back or not, I'd have to call him for unsportsmanlike conduct. He has the choice of leave it alone or put it back, not "put it where he likes it."

jjinfla
01-28-2008, 05:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> [Well, no. Even under the so-called "cue ball fouls only" rule, it is unsportsmanlike conduct to intentionally move object balls like that. Enforcing it is a different matter. <hr /></blockquote>

Well Bob what I described was out and out cheating, that was not the question. And of course players do that.

The question was what should a ref do if he does not see the foul. 1) Is a player required to turn himself in? 2) should the ref listen to the player? 3) Should the ref reprimand other players for complaining?

We do not have instant replay cameras.

Jake

CarolNYC
01-28-2008, 08:43 AM
Hiya Tom,
I honestly, have NEVER experienced any type of nonsense at the Pro level-it was just a known fact "respect the game,respect your opponent"-you never had to even think about not calling a foul on yourself,cause if you fouled,you better believe it was going to be called on you,so,I think ,like you said, ones behavior is a product of their environment/circumstance /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
At the regional level, we all had our "click" and if a new person showed up, we'd get their number right off the bat-from the very time they rack-you can just tell!

[ QUOTE ]
We all know some players who will win any way they can and are not beyound out and out cheating if the opportunity presents itself. <hr /></blockquote>
One player use to mysteriously start "coughing" when in a losing position-we use to bet on when it would begin,ha ha ha!

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly think that I will play honorably as long as my opponent doesn't give me any reason to think he is anything but honorable <hr /></blockquote>
Yes

[ QUOTE ]
The occasional dweeb will disappoint however and I tend to develop a very bad taste for that individual and I am not always a forgiving type who just lets it go. I do sometime retaliate <hr /></blockquote>
YEP,How much can you give,without receiving? Its like lending someone money who never pays you back,when do you stop?
I sometimes say something to the person as nicely as I can, cause they just "dont know any better" and there is their ONE chance!ha ha ha

have a great day!
Carol

CarolNYC
01-28-2008, 08:46 AM
Brad,
When you shoot an unintentional, fabulous shot,ALWAYS walk away like "you MEANT to do that!"ha ha ha
And,darn your hide!
Carol

SKennedy
01-28-2008, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
my opponent wasn't watching the game, he was too busy playing kissy face with his girlfriend. I was tired of it, and didn't call a foul on myself when I should have. Did I feel bad? No. I guess it depends on the circumstances <hr /></blockquote>
Hey Duane,
Thats just disrespectful, so it would be fair to say "if your not going to give respect,you dont deserve it?"
Valley Forge is crazy,but you have to love the energy /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

I can understand dg on this one. We were playing a team and their player fouled, we did not see it, they did not tell us, and we missed the opportunity for ball-in-hand. That's fine, but they then laughed and made fun of us for not noticing.....not in a pleasant way. A short while later, our player fouled, we did not tell the other player or team, and they missed BIH. What goes around comes around.....

Cydpkt
01-28-2008, 10:58 AM
I see it like this. Has anyone ever flagged down a cop and told them that you need to be ticketed because a few miles back they were speeding. People have to take some responsibility themselves. It is not my responsibility to pay attention for my opponent who is to busy to care about the match. I also don't like the players who every time the come to the table ask if it was a foul. In APA anyone can call a foul, it doesn't have to be the captain or the shooter. If they don't care why should I care for them?

SKennedy
01-28-2008, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> I see it like this. Has anyone ever flagged down a cop and told them that you need to be ticketed because a few miles back they were speeding. People have to take some responsibility themselves. It is not my responsibility to pay attention for my opponent who is to busy to care about the match. I also don't like the players who every time the come to the table ask if it was a foul. In APA anyone can call a foul, it doesn't have to be the captain or the shooter. If they don't care why should I care for them? <hr /></blockquote>

I didn't have a problem with them not telling us, it was the manner in which it was done....to point it out after the fact! When they missed our foul, we never said a word and they never knew.
However, if I'm playing an opponent who I know will do likewise, I will always tell them when I have fouled. I just extend to them the same courtesy I know they show me. Our captain is more hard-nosed and doesn't like to inform the other team. As for me, I want to win my match by playing better than my opponent.

Jager85
01-28-2008, 11:57 AM
I like to be honest, but lately I take freebies every now and then. It is the opponents obligation to watch the shots. I will tell of one time that really ticked me off from being honest.

I was gambling 5 bucks a game with some locals at a bar. Very cheap the guys were not that good it was easy money. They play straight 8, which I don't care for but I love the game and will play anything. I won the 1st 3 games, up 15. after that I played the same guy 3 matches in a row, and he never watched the table. In staright 8 you must call everything. Me being a nice guy at the time would stop any time I played a carom shot or anything that was not obvious, walk past 2 tables to interrupt his loud conversation to show him the shot. I don't know about anyone else but I cannot stay focused this way and then always end up rattling the next shot. Needless to say the guy took all the 15 I won off of me because I decided to be nice.

From this point on I realized if they are not watching it is their loss.

SpiderMan
01-28-2008, 01:32 PM
I admit all my fouls and mistakes, assuming I see them myself. One exception is when I'm playing a known jerk - I might shaft the guy just because he deserves no better. My friends and teammates all know I'm honest, and in those exceptional cases they'll know exactly why I did it /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

CarolNYC
01-28-2008, 01:39 PM
And I hear that assertiveness and I like :

[ QUOTE ]
My friends and teammates all know I'm honest, and in those exceptional cases they'll know exactly why I did it
<hr /></blockquote>
Thats all that matters /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol

CarolNYC
01-28-2008, 01:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I decided to be nice.
<hr /></blockquote>
One day that will come back to you,tenfold!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

SKennedy
01-28-2008, 01:41 PM
If your opponent is not close enough to hear you call a shot when you use normal voice volume because he is 2 tables over yacking, then too bad for him.

I don't think these types of things...calling fouls on yourself, etc., constitute dishonesty. To me dishonesty would be fouling on purpose when you think you can get away with it, or not being truthful.