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mbippus
01-27-2008, 02:07 PM
I've talked to a few people about their opinion on how a top rated women pro (Allison Fisher, Karen Corr) vs a top rated man pro would go. Has there ever been a match like this? It seems like men wouldn't have an inherent advantage over women in pool. That said, everyone I have talked to seems to think that Archer, Duel, Bustamonte would kill anyone the WPBA could throw at them. What do you think?

I think I would be a very entertaining match at the very least.

bradb
01-27-2008, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mbippus:</font><hr> I've talked to a few people about their opinion on how a top rated women pro (Allison Fisher, Karen Corr) vs a top rated man pro would go. Has there ever been a match like this? It seems like men wouldn't have an inherent advantage over women in pool. That said, everyone I have talked to seems to think that Archer, Duel, Bustamonte would kill anyone the WPBA could throw at them. What do you think?

I think I would be a very entertaining match at the very least. <hr /></blockquote>

There have been some controversial threads on this in past postings.

There have also been some match ups but they were more circus events than serious pool.

The top women play on the same tables and they run them out just as much as the men. So if Alison could be on her game in a match with any male player then her chances I feel would be even. But thats the key, the women players would have to adjust to the mens more aggressive style of play and not be put off their game or be intimidated. I watched Alison go through 9 racks of nine ball and only miss once! so its obvious she can beat anybody if her game is on.

dg-in-centralpa
01-27-2008, 06:05 PM
This has already been done, kinda. When the IPT was in full swing, Allison and Karen plus more of the women played against the men. They held their own for awhile, but the men eventually won. Karen beat Archer quite handily and I think he took her to lightly.

DG

Rich R.
01-27-2008, 11:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mbippus:</font><hr> I've talked to a few people about their opinion on how a top rated women pro (Allison Fisher, Karen Corr) vs a top rated man pro would go. Has there ever been a match like this? It seems like men wouldn't have an inherent advantage over women in pool. That said, everyone I have talked to seems to think that Archer, Duel, Bustamonte would kill anyone the WPBA could throw at them. What do you think?

I think I would be a very entertaining match at the very least. <hr /></blockquote>Karen Corr plays in the Joss Tour on a regular basis, along with many top men players. She definitely holds her own and, IIRC, she has won one or two of these events and just finished third, this weekend.
Allison, Karen and a number of other women players played in the IPT and held their own.
Just this past week, Helena Thornfeldt defeated Johnny Archer in the Great Southern Billiard Tour Championship.
The men do not have an inherent advantage over the women in pool. I guarantee you, whenever one of the top men plays one of the top women, the men know they are in a tough match and they must play their very best to win.

av84fun
01-28-2008, 12:49 AM
First, an astonishing number of men don't seen to understand that Allison and to a somewhat lesser extent Karen play an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT level of pool than the other women at this time.

So, to commnent on "women vs. men" is a flawed arguemnt to begin with.

Allision has won more WPBA events then ALL OTHER COMPETITORS COMBINED!!!

Having said that, the number of women in the world who take pool as seriously as is required to become a top player is a small fraction of the men. So, when you have a smaller pool of people who TRY to become great, you are going to have a lot fewer players who DO become great.

If the silly "winner breaks" rule is not in effect, then Allison and Karen can, have and DO beat top men.

But on any given day, in any given match...especially in the alternate break format, which is the only format that makes any sense...Allison and Karen are serious threats to beat...say Johnny Archer...just as Niels Feijen or Ralf Souquet are threats to beat him.

As another poster pointed out...how do you beat Alli or Karen WHEN THEY DON'T MISS???

But sadly, there are a TON of apparantly testosterone deprived men who just won't accept the facts for what they are. They are the same stone heads to insist that NO woman can beat any of the to FIVE HUNDRED male players...in a race to ONE HUNDRED.

But wait...if a race to 100 was the only viable measure of a champion then we might as well just throw all the 9 Ball championships into the dumpster and say that there ARE no champions AT ALL because there has never been a major tournament of that length in the history of the sport as far as I know.

Regards,
Jim

SKennedy
01-28-2008, 10:17 AM
If Allison is on her game, don't think I could comfortably bet on her opponent.....male or female! I agree that the top 2 to 3 ladies can hold their own. However, what about the lower tiers male vs female? I would suspect men ranked 11 to 20 are likely generally better than those ladies ranked in the top 11 to 20. Just speculation on my part.....

Deeman3
01-28-2008, 10:43 AM
Allison and Karen are indeed, quality players who would cast fear into any sane player. If you can get out, which they can consistently, you'll beat a lot of players. Even the second tier ladies are getting better and better.

Anyone who does not recognise the progress they have made in the last 10 years verses the top men are not paying attention or are just being chavinistic. These ladies can play!

BigRigTom
01-28-2008, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Allison and Karen are indeed, quality players who would cast fear into any sane player. If you can get out, which they can consistently, you'll beat a lot of players. Even the second tier ladies are getting better and better.

Anyone who does not recognise the progress they have made in the last 10 years verses the top men are not paying attention or are just being chavinistic. These ladies can play! <hr /></blockquote>

Tap! Tap! Tap!
The day is coming when Pro Pool will be a TRUE co-ed sport. It will be a fine day when they all play by the same rules and in the same events for the same trophies and money.....especially the money. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

CarolNYC
01-28-2008, 11:14 AM
Yes,there have been matches like that

Along with the players you mentioned, I think Jasmin Ouschin has earned some major respect from the male players! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Take care!
Carol

SKennedy
01-28-2008, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Allison and Karen are indeed, quality players who would cast fear into any sane player. If you can get out, which they can consistently, you'll beat a lot of players. Even the second tier ladies are getting better and better.

Anyone who does not recognise the progress they have made in the last 10 years verses the top men are not paying attention or are just being chavinistic. These ladies can play! <hr /></blockquote>
That's the main reason I want to go to Oklahoma this year. Watch them play in-person!

av84fun
01-28-2008, 05:32 PM
PS: I just happened to watch the WPC finals between Gomez and Peach. It was a race to 17 and as usual, even in much shorter races, the racks were heavily edited so the following does not reflect the entire match...BUT...

10 racks were shown. Of those, there were SEVEN outright misses...5 by Gomez and 2 by Peach.

Peach won 17-15 so it is clear that unforced errors where the difference in this world championship evet.

That is the RULE and not the exception.

Stated another way, there were outright misses in SEVENTY PERCENT of the televised races.

It two racks...20% of the total, BOTH players missed at least once.

There is simply an exaggerated notion about how "easy" the game of 9 Ball is...ESPECIALLY in championship conditions...not local gambling matchs.

Finally, those statistics show pretty clearly that the player who does not miss is the heavy favorite to win REGARDLESS OF GENDER!

And when the lights go on...the crowds gather and the whole world is watching (albeit by tape delay)there are few people on planet earth who can "bring their games" better than Allison and Karen.

Regards,
Jim

Bambu
01-29-2008, 07:55 PM
One of the best 9-Ball matches I ever saw was a race to 100, and took 2 days. Reyes vs Strickland in the $100,000.00 Hong Kong Challenge. I just took a look, its on 13 VHS, accustats tapes.

av84fun
01-29-2008, 09:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> One of the best 9-Ball matches I ever saw was a race to 100, and took 2 days. Reyes vs Strickland in the $100,000.00 Hong Kong Challenge. I just took a look, its on 13 VHS, accustats tapes. <hr /></blockquote>

I've heard great things about that match but it was a privately promoted challenge match not a pro tour event.

And it was a race to 120 which Reyes won...but Earl was ahead 100 to 80 something. So if it was a race to 100, Earl would have been PROVEN to be the best player on earth...but at 120 Reyes was....

MAN those extra 20 games sure changed the world!!!

(-:

Cornerman
01-29-2008, 11:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mbippus:</font><hr> I've talked to a few people about their opinion on how a top rated women pro (Allison Fisher, Karen Corr) vs a top rated man pro would go. Has there ever been a match like this? It seems like men wouldn't have an inherent advantage over women in pool. That said, everyone I have talked to seems to think that Archer, Duel, Bustamonte would kill anyone the WPBA could throw at them. What do you think?

I think I would be a very entertaining match at the very least. <hr /></blockquote>It's been done. And Jean Baluka proved decades ago that a woman could compete with the men in pool. Masako Katsura in decades before Jean proved that a woman could compete at the highest level against the men in billiards.

The average top female back then couldn't stand up against the top 50 males, but today that can't be said. There still is a difference in power shots, but that gap has closed considerably.

Fred

av84fun
02-01-2008, 01:42 AM
Excellent post Fred. But I think it must also be recognized that "women" in general is not the correct standard of comparison.

Instead, Allison Fisher and Karen Corr are in their own category as Superwomen. Those TWO woman have significantly narrowed the gap between THEM and male players just like Jean and Katsura did when theyh were categories of ONE.

Then there is the alternate break vs. the (silly) winner breaks rule wherein raw strength SEEMS to be an advantage for the men. Having said that, no one has yet explained to me how Alex can hit such a THUNDEROUS break...when in a fist fight, Allison would beat him like a rented mule! (-:

I don't want to get into this debate too deeply but I just have to do something between a laugh and a cry when I read on another forum that FIVE HUNDRED male players...10 from each state in the Union on average...would ROB Allison or Karen.

Those people just DON'T GET IT...that pool, like tennis...is a game lost due to unforced erros, not won by heroic shots. And Allison, having won more WPBA events than all other players COMBINED, has VERY OFTEN gone undefeated to win without making more than 3 or 4 unforced errors IN THE ENTIRE TOURNAMENT!

People just don't seem to understand, or let their testosterone shortages overcome their intelligence...that it is VERY, VERY hard to beat a player WHO DOESN'T MISS!!!

Oh well!

(-:
Jim

catscradle
02-01-2008, 07:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mbippus:</font><hr> I've talked to a few people about their opinion on how a top rated women pro (Allison Fisher, Karen Corr) vs a top rated man pro would go. Has there ever been a match like this? It seems like men wouldn't have an inherent advantage over women in pool. That said, everyone I have talked to seems to think that Archer, Duel, Bustamonte would kill anyone the WPBA could throw at them. What do you think?

I think I would be a very entertaining match at the very least. <hr /></blockquote>

This topic again, oy vey!

I think that the vast majority of players in the WPBA would be absolutely destroyed by the top men players. The exceptions would be Alison, Karen, and MAYBE a few others; even those few, though they would certainly be able to win a match here and there, would not be competitive with the top men.
This may or may not change someday, but as of the current state of pool, men are superior across the board. That is, the best men are better than the best women, and even more pointedly the average man is much better than the average woman.
JMHO.

Sid_Vicious
02-01-2008, 09:14 AM
Here's a teaser for you. Let's say you take the bottom 10 men players from their professional ranks, and have them compete against the top 10 of the women players from their ranks, say a session of "5 or 10 game freeze-out" of any agreed upon game, 9B, 1P, 8b, etc.

Surely the bottom ten men against the top ten women ought to be an interesting event concerning this discussion. Frankly, I don't know the answer of who would win in such a test, but something tells me the men would endure. I can't remember who posted the comparison of the top and bottom 10 matchup in a previous discussion about the menVSwomen, but it did tweak my imagination. sid

Fran Crimi
02-01-2008, 09:42 AM
How many men pros do you think have had to deal with the threat of physical violence around pool?

My guess would be all of them.

Is that any incentive for women to compete against men? I fail to find the logic here. You can't just put a woman in the occasional men's event and expect to draw comparisons. She first has to become comfortable in that environment. And frankly, I can't think of one reason why she should even try.

I've played in enough local events against men where I've had my life threatened if I won, or they would go around crowing to everyone around how it was pure luck that I won and how they can beat me on their worst day and blah blah blah.

I ask you...who the heck needs THAT?

It sort of reminds me of the Catholic High School I went to. It was literally cut in half --- boys on one side and girls on the other. The girls side was pristine. The boys side was loaded with broken lockers; broken desks and chairs, grafitti, and it stank.

Fran

catscradle
02-01-2008, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Here's a teaser for you. Let's say you take the bottom 10 men players from their professional ranks, and have them compete against the top 10 of the women players from their ranks, say a session of "5 or 10 game freeze-out" of any agreed upon game, 9B, 1P, 8b, etc.

Surely the bottom ten men against the top ten women ought to be an interesting event concerning this discussion. Frankly, I don't know the answer of who would win in such a test, but something tells me the men would endure. I can't remember who posted the comparison of the top and bottom 10 matchup in a previous discussion about the menVSwomen, but it did tweak my imagination. sid <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know how the "bottom 10" would be defined since there is no governing body, but my gut reaction says at least some of the women are favorites. Certainly Alison and Karen would be favorites.

Deeman3
02-01-2008, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I can't think of one reason why she should even try.


Fran
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I agree. With the way things are going, the TV exposure the ladies are getting is rapidly making them much more well known than any of the top men.

One of the guys that drew Allison, in Louisville, lost to her ( I did not seethe match)and was standing there telling me how he should have won, how Allison got lucky, all the time, his wife is standing behind him shaking her head at me, letting me know he was delusional. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In his mind, he couldn't see this woman beating him. Of course, I'm sure Allison just quietly ran balls. Later this guys wife told me Allison won 7-2! However, when he described it to me, it sounded hill-hill... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

Fran Crimi
02-01-2008, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I can't think of one reason why she should even try.


Fran
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I agree. With the way things are going, the TV exposure the ladies are getting is rapidly making them much more well known than any of the top men.

One of the guys that drew Allison, in Louisville, lost to her ( I did not seethe match)and was standing there telling me how he should have won, how Allison got lucky, all the time, his wife is standing behind him shaking her head at me, letting me know he was delusional. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In his mind, he couldn't see this woman beating him. Of course, I'm sure Allison just quietly ran balls. Later this guys wife told me Allison won 7-2! However, when he described it to me, it sounded hill-hill... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Yup.

But it even goes beyond the Tarzan-Jane thing. It's how men treat each other, too. All that woofing and crap that goes on. Women aren't into that sort of thing. We find it extremely uncomfortable. Sometimes it's funny, but most of the time it's just plain obnoxious.

Fran

catscradle
02-01-2008, 11:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
Yup.

But it even goes beyond the Tarzan-Jane thing. It's how men treat each other, too. All that woofing and crap that goes on. Women aren't into that sort of thing. We find it extremely uncomfortable. Sometimes it's funny, but most of the time it's just plain obnoxious.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Some of us men recognize that is a bunch macho nonsense as well. Maybe even most of us.

bradb
02-01-2008, 11:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>

This topic again, oy vey!

I think that the vast majority of players in the WPBA would be absolutely destroyed by the top men players. The exceptions would be Alison, Karen, and MAYBE a few others; even those few, though they would certainly be able to win a match here and there, would not be competitive with the top men.
This may or may not change someday, but as of the current state of pool, men are superior across the board. That is, the best men are better than the best women, and even more pointedly the average man is much better than the average woman.
JMHO. <hr /></blockquote>

It has been explained in this thread over and over that the 4 or 5 top women, when they are on their game, play as well as the top men.

If Alison can run out rack after rack then just how do you see Archer (who she has beat) or any male player a sure bet to win?

-brad

New2Pool
02-01-2008, 12:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>

This topic again, oy vey!

I think that the vast majority of players in the WPBA would be absolutely destroyed by the top men players. The exceptions would be Alison, Karen, and MAYBE a few others; even those few, though they would certainly be able to win a match here and there, would not be competitive with the top men.
This may or may not change someday, but as of the current state of pool, men are superior across the board. That is, the best men are better than the best women, and even more pointedly the average man is much better than the average woman.
JMHO. <hr /></blockquote>

It has been explained in this thread over and over that the 4 or 5 top women, when they are on their game, play as well as the top men.

If Alison can run out rack after rack then just how do you see Archer (who she has beat) or any male player a sure bet to win?

-brad <hr /></blockquote>

The key to your argument is "when they are on their game. I don't see how anyone can argue that women can't beat men in a tournament situation. It has happened so it can happen. The question should be over an extended period of time could the women compete with the men. i.e. If Allison played a top ranked man in a tournament like setting every day for a week or more would she, or any other woman, ever win consistently?

I don't even have a guess as to the answer but to me that is the more interesting question.

catscradle
02-01-2008, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>

This topic again, oy vey!

I think that the vast majority of players in the WPBA would be absolutely destroyed by the top men players. The exceptions would be Alison, Karen, and MAYBE a few others; even those few, though they would certainly be able to win a match here and there, would not be competitive with the top men.
This may or may not change someday, but as of the current state of pool, men are superior across the board. That is, the best men are better than the best women, and even more pointedly the average man is much better than the average woman.
JMHO. <hr /></blockquote>

It has been explained in this thread over and over that the 4 or 5 top women, when they are on their game, play as well as the top men.

If Alison can run out rack after rack then just how do you see Archer (who she has beat) or any male player a sure bet to win?

-brad <hr /></blockquote>

I didn't say a sure bet in any particular match. I just said over the long haul the top men will be triumph over the top women consistently. I still stand by that.
Furthermore, I will say that if Alison is on her game playing Archer (or better yet Shane B. since he seems to be the top dog lately) who is also on his game, she won't win a 10 ahead race in any discipline except quite possibly snooker.
I'm not demeaning women players, I'm just saying at this stage in the evolution of pool, men play better. I won't even speculate why, but they are better. That may well change, but we can't know if it will until we know why it is presently so.

bradb
02-01-2008, 12:45 PM
I think I can address New2pool and Catscradle posts above in this one so as to save space.

Yes the key is "when they are on their game." But the reason this is an issue has nothing to do with the talent of women. Pool is a mind game I think more than just about anything else except maybe poker.

As Fran mentioned in her posts, when women play the men its usually on their turf, (environment, mental attitudes.) So it would be a matter of them adapting over time to playing in those circumstances. But I have no doubt what so ever that women can, and will do it. In fact they are already beginning to.

When Alison first played some of the men you could see she was uncomfortable and of course that put her off her game. Take the men and put them in a different environment and they will react the same. We can see it when US male players tour Asia or Europe.

Its a changing world and we must base our opinion on that, not be stuck in the past and thinking thats the staus quo.

-brad

Rich R.
02-01-2008, 09:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Here's a teaser for you. Let's say you take the bottom 10 men players from their professional ranks, and have them compete against the top 10 of the women players from their ranks, say a session of "5 or 10 game freeze-out" of any agreed upon game, 9B, 1P, 8b, etc.

Surely the bottom ten men against the top ten women ought to be an interesting event concerning this discussion. Frankly, I don't know the answer of who would win in such a test, but something tells me the men would endure. I can't remember who posted the comparison of the top and bottom 10 matchup in a previous discussion about the menVSwomen, but it did tweak my imagination. sid <hr /></blockquote>
For lack of a better ranking, here is the bottom 10 ranked men from the UPA website. As it seems, they have not started their 2008 rankings yet, so these are the year end rankings from 2007.

79 Sparky Ferrell
80 C. J. Wiley
81 Edwin Montal
82 Mike Gulyassey
83 Ivaylo Petrov
84 T.F. Whittington
85 Tommy Kay
86 Shawn Reaton
87 Jo Ka Nim
88 Michael Aro

Here is the current top 10 ranked players from the WPBA website, last updated 11/14/07. So, this too, would be the year end rankings for 2007.

1 Allison Fisher
2 Ga Young Kim
3 Xiaoting Pan
4 Karen Corr
5 Kelly Fisher
6 Monica Webb
7 Sarah Ellerby
8 Helena Thornfeldt
9 Gerda Hofstatter
10 Vivian Villarreal

I will assume the game to be played is 9-ball, because both the UPA and the WPBA are 9-ball tours.

For my money, matching up these men with these women, the women win, hands down.

Sid_Vicious
02-01-2008, 10:49 PM
Winner breaks, and freeze-out, my money is still with the stack on guys...sid~~~maybe bit off more of a bet then he should

av84fun
02-02-2008, 02:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Winner breaks, and freeze-out, my money is still with the stack on guys...sid~~~maybe bit off more of a bet then he should <hr /></blockquote>

But Sid...Allison in particular is in a league of her own with karen VERY close behind in spite of the rankings for last season which, if money was the measure, Karen would be #2 given her TOC win for $25k.

So, the discussion should be about how Alli and Karen might do against a given set of men and a SECOND debate could rage about how the other top women might do.

As for winner breaks, that should not even be discussed in the context of rational rules in pro sports because there is no such rule in any major sport that would allow on player/team to win while the other player/team never gets a turn at competition.

It is a SILLY rule and merely a hold over "hustle move" where top roadies could give practically ANY weight to players with more money than brains.

If by "freeze out" you mean ahead sets, that too has no precident in recognized sports...and again, is a gambler's way to avoid losing to lesser players who can't string six packs together and are therefore, the underdog even when 5-7 racks ahead in a 10 ahead set.

How silly would it be to have a rule stating that if a basketball team gets up 20 points, the game is OVER...or 10 runs in baseball or 4 touchdowns in football.


Smokey, dingy pool hall gambling sessions that last until 8:00AM featuring the ingestion of various medications to boloster endurance is fine for those who dig the rather unseemly underbelly of the "roadie" world of pool but that sort of thing has NOTHING to do with professional sports.

They are two entirely different disciplines and shouldn't be mentioned in the same debate...IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

Rich R.
02-02-2008, 07:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>But Sid...Allison in particular is in a league of her own with karen VERY close behind in spite of the rankings for last season which, if money was the measure, Karen would be #2 given her TOC win for $25k.

So, the discussion should be about how Alli and Karen might do against a given set of men and a SECOND debate could rage about how the other top women might do.
<hr /></blockquote>
Jim, I think you are cutting this list of ladies short.

Yes, Karen and Allison do play consistantly better than the rest. However, you can't count out the rest of the ladies.
Helena Thornfeldt recently beat Archer at a tournament. Gerda Hofstatter beat Earl at one of the IPT events. Actually, Liz Ford, a lower ranked lady, not on the list, also beat Earl at a tournament not long ago.

Other ladies on the list, such as Ga Young Kim, Kelly Fisher, Monica Webb and Vivian Villarreal compete with men regularly. I'm not sure about the others, but, at their level of play, I'm sure they are looking to men for competitive games, between tournaments.

Since we are putting these first class women players up against the bottom ranked men players, I don't think these guys, as a group, have a chance. There are a couple of guys who are first class players and I suspect their low ranking is due to their lack of play in UPA events. Any of these ladies would have a tough time against Sparky Ferrell and C.J. Wiley. Edwin Montal may also hold his own against the women. However, on the other hand, there is guy on the list, and I'm not naming him, who I wouldn't mind playing and I consider myself a league hacker.

Don't sell these women short. They can play some pool.

LarryMoy
02-02-2008, 09:08 AM
Jean Balukas and Matsuro Katsura are great examples. A number of years ago (over 10?), Allison Fisher went on a tour with Grady Mathews, and Allison held her own.

bradb
02-02-2008, 11:41 AM
Rich, I know some of the guys down the list and I have even played them at various times in the past, one even installed my table for me. Most are doing other things, their pro playing is more of a hobby. They are good to be sure but the top 10 women pros would beat them easily.

I think we would have to compare players who are real pros... that is playing for a living, against the real women pros. One way to compare would be stats... percentage of runouts, shot percentage etc, of active players.

-brad

av84fun
02-02-2008, 01:48 PM
Rich, I didn't mean to sell the other women short...some of whom are close friends of mine.

I meant to heap praise on Alli and Karen, not disrespect the others but I agree with you that it didn't come out that way. Thanks for pointing that out.

Regards,
Jim

Qtec
02-03-2008, 10:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> How many men pros do you think have had to deal with the threat of physical violence around pool?

My guess would be all of them.

Is that any incentive for women to compete against men? I fail to find the logic here. You can't just put a woman in the occasional men's event and expect to draw comparisons. She first has to become comfortable in that environment. And frankly, I can't think of one reason why she should even try.

I've played in enough local events against men where I've had my life threatened if I won, or they would go around crowing to everyone around how it was pure luck that I won and how they can beat me on their worst day and blah blah blah.

I ask you...who the heck needs THAT?

It sort of reminds me of the Catholic High School I went to. It was literally cut in half --- boys on one side and girls on the other. The girls side was pristine. The boys side was loaded with broken lockers; broken desks and chairs, grafitti, and it stank.

Fran
<hr /></blockquote>

LMAO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Also, where the women have a disadvantage, is when a guy plays a woman he REALLY doesn't want to lose. Every match a woman plays in a men's tourney , the guy always plays like its the final.

What some forget is that there is a lot of inbetween time in tourneys.
If you make the final it could be a 14 hour day or longer. ie you REALLY have to want to be there! LOL
I mean, If you are going to do the whole Men,s tour there is no point if you are not enjoying it. After all, pool should be fun. You have to want to play.

I tell people that when you play a match you have an opponent. You are not playing a man , a woman, a top players, a crappy player etc just an opponent. IMO, The objective is always the same- play your own game and try and do it well.

It shouldnt matter when a guy is playing a girl but it does. Its human nature. You can't get round it.

Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

av84fun
02-04-2008, 01:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> How many men pros do you think have had to deal with the threat of physical violence around pool?

My guess would be all of them.

Is that any incentive for women to compete against men? I fail to find the logic here. You can't just put a woman in the occasional men's event and expect to draw comparisons. She first has to become comfortable in that environment. And frankly, I can't think of one reason why she should even try.

I've played in enough local events against men where I've had my life threatened if I won, or they would go around crowing to everyone around how it was pure luck that I won and how they can beat me on their worst day and blah blah blah.

I ask you...who the heck needs THAT?

It sort of reminds me of the Catholic High School I went to. It was literally cut in half --- boys on one side and girls on the other. The girls side was pristine. The boys side was loaded with broken lockers; broken desks and chairs, grafitti, and it stank.

Fran
<hr /></blockquote>

LMAO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Also, where the women have a disadvantage, is when a guy plays a woman he REALLY doesn't want to lose. Every match a woman plays in a men's tourney , the guy always plays like its the final.

What some forget is that there is a lot of inbetween time in tourneys.
If you make the final it could be a 14 hour day or longer. ie you REALLY have to want to be there! LOL
I mean, If you are going to do the whole Men,s tour there is no point if you are not enjoying it. After all, pool should be fun. You have to want to play.

I tell people that when you play a match you have an opponent. You are not playing a man , a woman, a top players, a crappy player etc just an opponent. IMO, The objective is always the same- play your own game and try and do it well.

It shouldnt matter when a guy is playing a girl but it does. Its human nature. You can't get round it.

Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Interesting take. But I think there are opposing forces at work. On the one hand, when women play in open events, they are in a small minority and as Fran points out, that can have some negative implications.

I'm not sure how much the fear of violence is actually at work but certainly, the women SOMETIMES lack the "home field advantage" of the crowd being on their side.

However, having sponsored Allison and Kim Shaw for the Derby City, I can tell you for a FACT, that the crowds were CLEARLY on their side...almost embarrassingly so on some occasions. But I am sure there are examples to the contrary as well.

But phychologically, I'm not sure that the women don't have the advantage. What I mean by that is they are SUPPOSED to lose, so when they do, expectations are being met and they have nothing to be ashamed of.

Conversely, and this was CLEARLY true at the DCC, it was the men who had everything to lose if they lost and nearly nothing to gain if they won.

Similarly, I know one top name pro who refuses to play young Landon Shufett in a "friendly match" because he/she simply does NOT want to lose to a 12 year old!!!

On the other hand, when Landon gets 5 games on a top name pro in a race to 7, everyone pats him on the back and tells him how GREAT he played!

But BOTTOM LINE, the pool player's only opponent is the lay of the balls (and themselvesA) not the other player. Therefore, the whole argument about who can beat whom could be absolutely resolved if there were statistics on unforced errors...which, unfortunately there are not, as far as I know, excpet in matches recorded by Accu-Stats.

In the VAST majority of cases in my observation over the last 40 years, pool matchs are won by the player who commits the fewest unforced errors.

Allison, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Karen have played entire tournaments and not missed more than 3-4 shots.

So to those men who seem to suffer from either excessive or deficient testosterone levels (I'm not sure which) who seem to think that the top 100 men can "rob" Allison, I just have to sigh quietly and wish that she liked to gamble...which she does not.

NOTE: The above remarks refer to PRO TOURNAMENT match play and not all night gambling marathons which is an entirely different sort of competition.

Regards,
Jim

Sid_Vicious
02-04-2008, 02:38 AM
"I'm not sure how much the fear of violence is actually at work but certainly, the women SOMETIMES lack the "home field advantage"

This analogy of threats pointed at talented women players is crap. Tell me women, besides Fran, "How many time have you really been threatened in the same sense as Fran stated?" Seriously, is this a reality at all???sid

CarolNYC
02-04-2008, 06:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How many time have you really been threatened <hr /></blockquote>

NEVER!
Carol