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billiards89
01-27-2008, 10:24 PM
how does the apa handicap system work why do they have 1 through 9 in 9 ball and only 2 through 7 in 8 ball what do the put in the computer in each game what does the computer go by

Cydpkt
01-27-2008, 11:57 PM
Just guessing here but I think the reason for a 2 being the lowest SL in 8 ball is simply that the minimum number of games the lowest rated play must win to win the match is 2. Imagine if a player only had to win one game. Their opponent breaks and scratches while making the 8. Hey you win without having to chalk your cue. As for 9 ball they can easily manage the levels by the number of points a player needs to make to win the match. Again this is me taking a stab at it.

BLACKHEART
01-28-2008, 10:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote billiards89:</font><hr> how does the apa handicap system work why do they have 1 through 9 in 9 ball and only 2 through 7 in 8 ball what do the put in the computer in each game what does the computer go by <hr /></blockquote>

Games won,innings,time outs,safties &amp; the handicap of the opponent. Plus they average the BEST 10 matches, out of the LAST 20 matches played. So you see, you could lose 10 times in a row &amp; still have your handicap go up...JER

SKennedy
01-28-2008, 10:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote billiards89:</font><hr> how does the apa handicap system work why do they have 1 through 9 in 9 ball and only 2 through 7 in 8 ball what do the put in the computer in each game what does the computer go by <hr /></blockquote>

Games won,innings,time outs,safties &amp; the handicap of the opponent. Plus they average the BEST 10 matches, out of the LAST 20 matches played. So you see, you could lose 10 times in a row &amp; still have your handicap go up...JER <hr /></blockquote>

I thought it was your last 10 matches....period....not the best 10 of the last 20. Never heard that before. Not saying you are wrong...I just don't know.

BigRigTom
01-28-2008, 11:12 AM
Blackheart is correct and it is easier to go up than it is to go back down....you also can only go down 1 point....that will usually not last long and you'll go right back up again if you are not a VERY experienced sand bagger.

SKennedy
01-28-2008, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Blackheart is correct and it is easier to go up than it is to go back down....you also can only go down 1 point....that will usually not last long and you'll go right back up again if you are not a VERY experienced sand bagger. <hr /></blockquote>

I lost my very first match in league and went from a new player 4 to a 3!! And of course, I thought I was at least a 6 before I started to play. My very next match as a 3 I also lost. I told my team mates I would consider wearing a dress to the next match if I could drop down to a 2. I was playing awful....but in both matches I played against 5 or 6 level players...and I was really nervous...in the end, I did not stay a 3 very long. You are right about moving down vs up.
We don't see much sandbagging in our area. After 10 matches or so, your true level pretty much comes out. It's those new level 4 players you have to worry about....

BLACKHEART
01-28-2008, 10:28 PM
I lost my very first match in league and went from a new player 4 to a 3!! And of course, I thought I was at least a 6 before I started to play. My very next match as a 3 I also lost. I told my team mates I would consider wearing a dress to the next match if I could drop down to a 2. I was playing awful....but in both matches I played against 5 or 6 level players...and I was really nervous...in the end, I did not stay a 3 very long. You are right about moving down vs up.
We don't see much sandbagging in our area. After 10 matches or so, your true level pretty much comes out. It's those new level 4 players you have to worry about.... <hr /></blockquote>
When you start in the APA your handicap will go up &amp; down 'til you reach 5 matches. Your handicap will be figured on your BEST 3 out of 5. Then on your BEST 5 out of 10. From then on, it will be on your BEST 10 out of your last 20. If there is no sandbagging in your league, no team from your area will advance past the local level...JER

SKennedy
01-30-2008, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>

When you start in the APA your handicap will go up &amp; down 'til you reach 5 matches. Your handicap will be figured on your BEST 3 out of 5. Then on your BEST 5 out of 10. From then on, it will be on your BEST 10 out of your last 20. If there is no sandbagging in your league, no team from your area will advance past the local level...JER <hr /></blockquote>

I know that the team that we lost against in our area final was going to the next level and I thought they were going straight to Vegas. I may be wrong. They did make a comment to me that the league operator had indicated to them he thought they were skilled at the proper level and should not have any trouble with respect to their skill level in Vegas. I will admit there are always a few individual players that seem to run up their innings, but there are not that many that I see anyway. However, I have seen some pretty good 3's and 4's here lately in our league, so it may be getting worse. We always mark our defensive shots and don't intentionally run up innings. I'm sure last night the other team thought I was....I had a 5 and an 8 inning game vs a 3. I was 1/2 way through and he was already on the hill (needed 2 games). I'm sure it looked like I was sandbagging, etc., but the truth was that I just plain struggled last night.

Jager85
01-31-2008, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote billiards89:</font><hr> how does the apa handicap system work why do they have 1 through 9 in 9 ball and only 2 through 7 in 8 ball what do the put in the computer in each game what does the computer go by <hr /></blockquote>

Games won,innings,time outs,safties &amp; the handicap of the opponent. Plus they average the BEST 10 matches, out of the LAST 20 matches played. So you see, you could lose 10 times in a row &amp; still have your handicap go up...JER <hr /></blockquote>

I thought it was your last 10 matches....period....not the best 10 of the last 20. Never heard that before. Not saying you are wrong...I just don't know. <hr /></blockquote>

Our APA League Officer told us the same theing, the best 10 out of the last 20 matches played.

Anyway, I have noticed it is easier to go up then down. However, when I first started it took me a while to move up. When first joining the league I knew I was a definite 5, a good chance at a 6, but didn't think I was quite consistent enough to be a 7 yet. Starting as a 4, my first night I beat a 5, second night I beat a 7 2-2, third night I beat another 5, and it wasn't until my fourth week, another 5 that I moved up. By the end of my first session I did make it to a 6. Now, three sessions later, I finally made it to a 7 about 2 months ago. There are some shooters who need to move up in my league, but have not yet. A couple of 6's who I have been told sandbag to stay there, but they are 7's no doubt. One of them was gambling \$500 a game a couple months ago at a local pool hall, for that kind of money you know your a 7. Also, there is a 5 that was one point out of top gun last session who beat a total of 4 7's and 3 6's all session and stayed a 5. He is pretty established but c'mon.

As far as 9-ball goes I have not played in an APA 9-ball league so I am of no help there.

BigRigTom
01-31-2008, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr>
Our APA League Officer told us the same theing, the best 10 out of the last 20 matches played.

Anyway, I have noticed it is easier to go up then down. However, when I first started it took me a while to move up. When first joining the league I knew I was a definite 5, a good chance at a 6, but didn't think I was quite consistent enough to be a 7 yet. Starting as a 4, my first night I beat a 5, second night I beat a 7 2-2, third night I beat another 5, and it wasn't until my fourth week, another 5 that I moved up. By the end of my first session I did make it to a 6. Now, three sessions later, I finally made it to a 7 about 2 months ago. There are some shooters who need to move up in my league, but have not yet. A couple of 6's who I have been told sandbag to stay there, but they are 7's no doubt. One of them was gambling \$500 a game a couple months ago at a local pool hall, for that kind of money you know your a 7. Also, there is a 5 that was one point out of top gun last session who beat a total of 4 7's and 3 6's all session and stayed a 5. He is pretty established but c'mon.

As far as 9-ball goes I have not played in an APA 9-ball league so I am of no help there. <hr /></blockquote>

Yep all you say and more!
I have been playing APA since 2000 and have heard this story from everyone I know at one time or other.

After a while everyone just accepts it.

Scott Lee
02-01-2008, 10:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> If there is no sandbagging in your league, no team from your area will advance past the local level...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Wow JER! That's a very jaded view of the APA. It may be true in your league area (but I doubt that), but it definitely is not true on a nationwide basis. When I was an APA L.O. there was ZERO sandbagging in my league (I had 80 teams). If you sandbagged in my league I made you a permanent 7...or you could quit. It doesn't have to be the way you described. It's all about the league operator, imo.

Scott Lee

KellyStick
02-04-2008, 12:26 PM
Ouch Scott! Sandbag and you are a permanent 7. I bet that did work! I may have to suggest that to our LO though things are a bit better than they were several years ago when one of the biggest sandbaggers in the league was also the guy that entered data into the computer. Of course he and some of his team mates also got and kicked out of the league in Vegas. serves them right... Ahh, the simple pleasures

02-04-2008, 02:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> If there is no sandbagging in your league, no team from your area will advance past the local level...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Wow JER! That's a very jaded view of the APA. It may be true in your league area (but I doubt that), but it definitely is not true on a nationwide basis. When I was an APA L.O. there was ZERO sandbagging in my league (I had 80 teams). If you sandbagged in my league I made you a permanent 7...or you could quit. It doesn't have to be the way you described. It's all about the league operator, imo.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
That is true, unfortunately too many of the LO care about only one thing. What will keep the maximum number of people in my league? They'll bump somebody up only when they afraid of lossing other players.
I wish I could have played in an APA league organized in the manner you did.

Scott Lee
02-04-2008, 10:33 PM
Yeah Kelly, I ran a tight ship, but I sure enjoyed my four years as an APA LO (even though my league area was 90,000 sq. miles! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)! Plus, since I had less than 500 players, I still could "know" them all, and being an instructor there was NO way they could fool me! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Boy...that was a LOOOOONG time ago! LOL I sold me league area to start touring nationally, after I bought Jack White's tour in '94.

Scott Lee

Rich R.
02-05-2008, 07:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr>Also, there is a 5 that was one point out of top gun last session who beat a total of 4 7's and 3 6's all session and stayed a 5. He is pretty established but c'mon.<hr /></blockquote>
I don't know how the APA handicap system works and I can't explain it. Frankly, I don't worry about it and I get tired of hearing from those who do. I play every match, to the best of my ability at that time. Of course, I am an amateur and some nights I play like a 7 and other nights I play like a 2. The league says I'm a 6 and I accept that, but I'm trying to improve.

In regards to your statement about the 5 in your area, I can only relate my own experience.
A year or two ago, I went one session with a 13-1 record, against a variety of opponents. Much to my surprise, I never budged from my 6 rating. I can't explain it and I don't try to hold my level down in any way. The fact is, in my division, I have been chosen as the "top gun", at my level, for the best winning percentage, in at least 4 different sessions. There is definitely no sandbagging on my part.

If more people just played the game and didn't worry about skill levels, the APA would be a much better league.

02-05-2008, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> ...

If more people just played the game and didn't worry about skill levels, the APA would be a much better league. <hr /></blockquote>
That's the way I played it when I played it. You're absolutely right it would be a better experience for everybody if everybody played straight up. Unfortunately, a number of people have the Vegas bug up their butt.

KellyStick
02-05-2008, 12:39 PM
I think style and scoring play into the handicaps. Most of the sevens I see are very agressive and tend to run out if given half a chance. If they don't like the lay they may just bust everything up and often get what seems like lucky. Not always. I know several sixes that could play like that but because they play a more conservative or defensive GAME they don't go up. Wins percents are high but ususally not by a route. I too am a 6 and have had several high percentage sessions only losing 1 or 2 games. I didn't go up because I play more defensively.

On the other hand if the scoring were correct maybe this would be different. No one in our league calls a defense on themselves and many scorekeepers don't seem to know about marking defenses in the first place. Perhaps that is the whole issue right there.

I still say style of play can have some affect on handicaps. But maybe not if scoring were perfect. I don't see that happening in my area any time soon though.

BLACKHEART
02-05-2008, 04:02 PM
You do reallize that if everyone Just went out &amp; played straight up, each players handicap would go up &amp; you could not field 5 players whose handicaps totaled 23. It also sounds like none of you people mark safties down. If you are a 6 &amp; have 8 innings for 6 innings(with 3 safties), you really only have 5 innings for 6 games. NOW YOU ARE A 7. You guys are obviously not captains &amp; don't have to worry about peoples handicaps going up. In other words come to drink &amp; play &amp; leave the worriing to OTHERS...JER

Rich R.
02-05-2008, 08:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> You do reallize that if everyone Just went out &amp; played straight up, each players handicap would go up &amp; you could not field 5 players whose handicaps totaled 23. It also sounds like none of you people mark safties down. If you are a 6 &amp; have 8 innings for 6 innings(with 3 safties), you really only have 5 innings for 6 games. NOW YOU ARE A 7. You guys are obviously not captains &amp; don't have to worry about peoples handicaps going up. In other words come to drink &amp; play &amp; leave the worriing to OTHERS...JER <hr /></blockquote>
Jer, obviously things are different in your area than in other areas, especially mine.
In my league, and I'm sure others are the same, there are people who just play once a week and they rarely go up in skill level. There are players on my team that would surprise the heck out of me if they ever went above a 3. Currently, we do not have a 7, so we do not have any trouble fielding a team with the 23 rule.
Also, for the record, we do mark safties. Don't assume everyone is cheating to keep our levels low.
Although I am not the captain of my team, I am the co-captain. Neither my captain nor myself ever worries about anyone's handicaps going up. In the 5+ years I have been with my team, I have never heard my captain ask any player to do anything to try to artifically keep their handicap low. If someone's level goes up, we deal with it. There is no need to cheat. I'm sorry you feel the need to manipulate handicaps in your league. I strongly suggest you forget about the handicaps and just enjoy playing pool.

eg8r
02-05-2008, 08:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I have noticed it is easier to go up then down. However, when I first started it took me a while to move up. When first joining the league I knew I was a definite 5, a good chance at a 6, but didn't think I was quite consistent enough to be a 7 yet. Starting as a 4, my first night I beat a 5, second night I beat a 7 2-2, third night I beat another 5, and it wasn't until my fourth week, another 5 that I moved up. By the end of my first session I did make it to a 6. Now, three sessions later, I finally made it to a 7 about 2 months ago. There are some shooters who need to move up in my league, but have not yet. A couple of 6's who I have been told sandbag to stay there, but they are 7's no doubt. One of them was gambling \$500 a game a couple months ago at a local pool hall, for that kind of money you know your a 7. Also, there is a 5 that was one point out of top gun last session who beat a total of 4 7's and 3 6's all session and stayed a 5. He is pretty established but c'mon.
<hr /></blockquote> I have been seriously considering actually joining an APA team lately if only to gaurantee I might actually play at least once week, but after reading things like this it reminds me why I have never been in a league before.

eg8r &lt;~~~needs to find an APA team in the west Orlando area

eg8r
02-05-2008, 08:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's those new level 4 players you have to worry about.... <hr /></blockquote> Hey SKennedy that will be me one day when I actually join a league. I guess it will be fun in the beginning. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

BLACKHEART
02-06-2008, 07:36 AM
Jer, obviously things are different in your area than in other areas, especially mine.
In my league, and I'm sure others are the same, there are people who just play once a week and they rarely go up in skill level. There are players on my team that would surprise the heck out of me if they ever went above a 3. Currently, we do not have a 7, so we do not have any trouble fielding a team with the 23 rule.
Also, for the record, we do mark safties. Don't assume everyone is cheating to keep our levels low.
Although I am not the captain of my team, I am the co-captain. Neither my captain nor myself ever worries about anyone's handicaps going up. In the 5+ years I have been with my team, I have never heard my captain ask any player to do anything to try to artifically keep their handicap low. If someone's level goes up, we deal with it. There is no need to cheat. I'm sorry you feel the need to manipulate handicaps in your league. I strongly suggest you forget about the handicaps and just enjoy playing pool.
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Rich; I am not suggesting that people CHEAT. I am only suppliing info about HOW handicaps are arrived at. Also the fact that players acknowleged that safties aren't being marked can effect handicaps greatly. I play in 3 different leagues &amp; still enjoy playing. However, as a team player, I am greatly aware that without the 2 &amp; 3 level players there would be little chance of playing on a team with 6 &amp; 7 level player,simply because of the 23 point rule. In our APA league, we have 10 teams with 11 players being 6 &amp; 7 level players. I don't ask my players to cheat, but they should be aware of HOW the handicaps are arrived at...JER

Rich R.
02-06-2008, 08:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>However, as a team player, I am greatly aware that without the 2 &amp; 3 level players there would be little chance of playing on a team with 6 &amp; 7 level player,simply because of the 23 point rule. <hr /></blockquote>
Jer, this is exactly why the once a week, recreational players, are important to league play. They will rarely go up in ranking and they allow the more serious players to play. From reading the forums, I know that many serious players look down on these lesser skilled players, but they are a very important part of what makes a league team work. Every team needs a solid 2 and 3, in addition to the 6's and 7's, to make it work.

SKennedy
02-06-2008, 09:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> You do reallize that if everyone Just went out &amp; played straight up, each players handicap would go up &amp; you could not field 5 players whose handicaps totaled 23. It also sounds like none of you people mark safties down. If you are a 6 &amp; have 8 innings for 6 innings(with 3 safties), you really only have 5 innings for 6 games. NOW YOU ARE A 7. You guys are obviously not captains &amp; don't have to worry about peoples handicaps going up. In other words come to drink &amp; play &amp; leave the worriing to OTHERS...JER <hr /></blockquote>
Jer, obviously things are different in your area than in other areas, especially mine.
In my league, and I'm sure others are the same, there are people who just play once a week and they rarely go up in skill level. There are players on my team that would surprise the heck out of me if they ever went above a 3. Currently, we do not have a 7, so we do not have any trouble fielding a team with the 23 rule.
Also, for the record, we do mark safties. Don't assume everyone is cheating to keep our levels low.
Although I am not the captain of my team, I am the co-captain. Neither my captain nor myself ever worries about anyone's handicaps going up. In the 5+ years I have been with my team, I have never heard my captain ask any player to do anything to try to artifically keep their handicap low. If someone's level goes up, we deal with it. There is no need to cheat. I'm sorry you feel the need to manipulate handicaps in your league. I strongly suggest you forget about the handicaps and just enjoy playing pool.
<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks Rich...same here. While we do not have a 7 (yet) on our team, we are still loaded on the upper skilled side and basically have to play 2 skill level 3's to stay at or under 23. We hava a young kid who is a 6 in 8-ball and is a 7 in 9-ball. He could go up to a 7 in 8-ball. Bottom line is we don't worry about a player moving up and we mark all our safety and defensive shots. As players progress, we spin off good players who join other teams or start new ones and we go find new players that are at a lower level. We are there to have fun. We also manage to pretty much always finish 1st or 2nd in league play. For most of us, if we really want to get to Vegas that bad, we'll just go. There's more than one way to get there.
As for 5 innings to play 7 games.....if that is common for your 6's and 7's, then it sounds to me like your league doesn't play many defensive or safety shots?