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View Full Version : A question concerning ferrules.....



Cydpkt
01-28-2008, 08:59 PM
I was wondering what the biggest difference is between the longer or shorter ferrules? Is there a difference in the construction of the shaft for what length ferrule would be the best "hit" for total cue? Thanks

dr_dave
01-28-2008, 11:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> I was wondering what the biggest difference is between the longer or shorter ferrules? Is there a difference in the construction of the shaft for what length ferrule would be the best "hit" for total cue? Thanks <hr /></blockquote>I don't know about the effect of ferrule length on "feel," but a shorter ferrule will be lighter (compared to the wood) and result in less squirt (e.g., with Predator's shafts).

Regards,
Dave

Heretic
01-29-2008, 02:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> I was wondering what the biggest difference is between the longer or shorter ferrules? Is there a difference in the construction of the shaft for what length ferrule would be the best "hit" for total cue? Thanks <hr /></blockquote>I don't know about the effect of ferrule length on "feel," but a shorter ferrule will be lighter (compared to the wood) and result in less squirt (e.g., with Predator's shafts).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

And yet meucci constantly contends that their longer ferrule is the way to go.....What are they basing this on?

I am not sure but I think meucci has the longest ferrules of the production cues currently on the market

DeadCrab
01-29-2008, 07:19 AM
What is the mass of a ferrule compared to the tip and the shaft it is wrapped around?

Artemus
01-29-2008, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Heretic:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> I was wondering what the biggest difference is between the longer or shorter ferrules? Is there a difference in the construction of the shaft for what length ferrule would be the best "hit" for total cue? Thanks <hr /></blockquote>I don't know about the effect of ferrule length on "feel," but a shorter ferrule will be lighter (compared to the wood) and result in less squirt (e.g., with Predator's shafts).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

And yet meucci constantly contends that their longer ferrule is the way to go.....What are they basing this on?

<font color="red"> The fact that it is supposedly attached in such a way that it moves or wiggles upon impact and deflects more and quicker to produce less squirt. That's the way I understand it from what's been written and reported. There is something different about the ferrule because if somebody miscues badly while using one, you can hear it across the room and it sounds like no other miscue from another shaft or ferrule.</font color>

I am not sure but I think meucci has the longest ferrules of the production cues currently on the market <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> I think that would be true regarding the length, but their ferrules are ultra thin and light. </font color>

Cydpkt
01-29-2008, 09:26 AM
Dave,
Thanks for the info. I was wondering though if two shafts are the same length but one has a short ferrule and one has a long ferrule. Wouldn't the shaft with the short ferrule weigh more since it has more wood over all? Of course this takes into account that the wood is the same. I have read/watched http://www.onthebreaknews.com/CueTips.htm
about the shaft. I never knew the weight and color can be determined as to when the wood was cut from the tree.
The cue I am having built has a longer butt section and a shorter shaft to assist with less vibration on the shot.

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Heretic:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> I was wondering what the biggest difference is between the longer or shorter ferrules? Is there a difference in the construction of the shaft for what length ferrule would be the best "hit" for total cue? Thanks <hr /></blockquote>I don't know about the effect of ferrule length on "feel," but a shorter ferrule will be lighter (compared to the wood) and result in less squirt (e.g., with Predator's shafts).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

And yet meucci constantly contends that their longer ferrule is the way to go.....What are they basing this on?<hr /></blockquote>I would need to know what their specific claims and reasons are before I could answer. However, if their longer ferrules are thiner and lighter, less squirt would result.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr> What is the mass of a ferrule compared to the tip and the shaft it is wrapped around?<hr /></blockquote>That depends on the length and thickness of the ferrule, and the ferrule material. It is my understanding that typical plastic ferrules are denser than wood, so keeping the ferrule as small and thin as possible can help reduce squirt (for people who want less squirt).

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> Dave,
Thanks for the info. I was wondering though if two shafts are the same length but one has a short ferrule and one has a long ferrule. Wouldn't the shaft with the short ferrule weigh more since it has more wood over all? Of course this takes into account that the wood is the same. I have read/watched http://www.onthebreaknews.com/CueTips.htm
about the shaft. I never knew the weight and color can be determined as to when the wood was cut from the tree.
The cue I am having built has a longer butt section and a shorter shaft to assist with less vibration on the shot. <hr /></blockquote>It is my understanding that typical ferrule material is denser than typical cue wood. Maybe the cue makers out there can let us know for sure. For example, the ferrule on a Predator shaft is much smaller (and lighter) than typical ferrules. That's one reason why there is less squirt.

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
01-29-2008, 02:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> ... ( about Meucci ferrules) The fact that it is supposedly attached in such a way that it moves or wiggles upon impact and deflects more and quicker to produce less squirt. That's the way I understand it from what's been written and reported. ... <hr /></blockquote>
That's the way I understand it as well. The ferrule does sort of a shimmy during contact so the shaft doesn't have to deflect.

Imagine tiny ball bearings between the tip and the ferrule, so the tip could roll to the side while still pushing forward. If such a thing could be made, it would have very low squirt -- only the tip (and the tiny ball bearings) would be included in the "end mass."

A further step would be to install small jets on the side of the tip that could be fired at impact so the tip would move to the side on its own without having to be pushed by the cue ball. You could adjust such a device for zero or even negative squirt. People clever with mechanical designs may be able to do such a thing just with springs and such.

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> ... ( about Meucci ferrules) The fact that it is supposedly attached in such a way that it moves or wiggles upon impact and deflects more and quicker to produce less squirt. That's the way I understand it from what's been written and reported. ... <hr /></blockquote>
That's the way I understand it as well. The ferrule does sort of a shimmy during contact so the shaft doesn't have to deflect.

Imagine tiny ball bearings between the tip and the ferrule, so the tip could roll to the side while still pushing forward. If such a thing could be made, it would have very low squirt -- only the tip (and the tiny ball bearings) would be included in the "end mass."

A further step would be to install small jets on the side of the tip that could be fired at impact so the tip would move to the side on its own without having to be pushed by the cue ball. You could adjust such a device for zero or even negative squirt. People clever with mechanical designs may be able to do such a thing just with springs and such. <hr /></blockquote>Bob, I look forward to seeing your first prototype for the jet-assist (or clever-spring) zero-squirt cue. You could make millions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

On a serious note, do you know how the ferrule is attached to the cue to allow for the reported ferrule-shimmy action? Also, do you think it really works?

Thanks,
Dave

Artemus
01-29-2008, 03:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
On a serious note, do you know how the ferrule is attached to the cue to allow for the reported ferrule-shimmy action? Also, do you think it really works?

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Unless it gives you a wedgie to talk to someone who never got a GED and who isn't associated with elitist aristocracy, I'll throw my 2 cents in until Bob answers.

Something works! I don't know how it's attached nor do I know if it's specifically the ferrule, but as bad a rap that Meucci ALWAYS GETS on pool forums regarding quality, customer service, whippy shafts (which nobody can quantify), or inlays popping out, a Meucci cue flat out shoots great. I have a Meucci Original circa 1979 or 80, and the newer models purchased about 4 years ago and they have excellent feel and control. If a person falls for the usual negativity of forum naysayers, they'll never experience what I'm talking about or buy one. Their loss.
The black dot shaft is a warping POS though. Red dots are really quite decent. So, if it isn't the ferrule that's working, what is it? Many a super player has used them in the past and still do.

wolfdancer
01-29-2008, 03:30 PM
Dr. Dave, unless Meucci has changed their material (haven't checked them out lately) they use a thermoplastic (soft) ferrule, while others are using a harder thermoset material.
And they use a longer ferrule then most.
From an article that I read way back, this was Bob's theory in the 70's, that allowing the shaft to yield...vibrate,and produced greater spin on the CB....and that proved to be correct, in the era of computers.
And he did all this without a $300k squirt machine.
(Six student project engineers @ $50k per student, per semester...) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bob_Jewett
01-29-2008, 03:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... On a serious note, do you know how the ferrule is attached to the cue to allow for the reported ferrule-shimmy action? Also, do you think it really works? ... <hr /></blockquote>
I've never cut one open to see what was inside, nor have I followed Meucci's advertising info, but I've been told that the new ferrule design was sort of free-floating without touching the tenon. This seems like it would be the same as using a hollow tube for the ferrule, until the wiggling ferrule hit the tenon.

wolfdancer
01-29-2008, 03:43 PM
Seems like I'm about 20 years behind on my Meucci lore...tiny ball bearings, springs.....all this just to hit a cue ball?
I think we have reached the limits of technology as it applies to the shaft...and the next breakthrough will be on the stroke itself.
I'm thinking along the lines of a snake, or wiggle movement, where the shaft using a combination of tuck and roll,nip and tuck, combined with ulnar and palmer deviation, first sends the shaft outward at an angle then just before contact, the cue is whipped back across the center line to produce max spin rate.

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 04:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
On a serious note, do you know how the ferrule is attached to the cue to allow for the reported ferrule-shimmy action? Also, do you think it really works?

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Unless it gives you a wedgie to talk to someone who never got a GED and who isn't associated with elitist aristocracy, I'll throw my 2 cents in until Bob answers.<hr /></blockquote>I wish I knew why you apparently have a hang-up with educated people. Were you beat up by a gang of PhDs when you were little? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif If so, don't take it out on me. Maybe you can find some kind of support group to help you through your past negative emotions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Seriously, I try not to judge anybody based on their educational level. I do express my opinions about what people write, and I think I give everybody the same treatment regardless of the number or types of degrees the person might have. I expect and try to demonstrate mutual respect among all people, whether they have GEDs or PhDs or not.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Something works! I don't know how it's attached nor do I know if it's specifically the ferrule, but as bad a rap that Meucci ALWAYS GETS on pool forums regarding quality, customer service, whippy shafts (which nobody can quantify), or inlays popping out, a Meucci cue flat out shoots great. I have a Meucci Original circa 1979 or 80, and the newer models purchased about 4 years ago and they have excellent feel and control. If a person falls for the usual negativity of forum naysayers, they'll never experience what I'm talking about or buy one. Their loss.
The black dot shaft is a warping POS though. Red dots are really quite decent. So, if it isn't the ferrule that's working, what is it? Many a super player has used them in the past and still do. <hr /></blockquote>Thank you for your thoughts. I tend to prefer data to anecdotal statements. Lot's of cues "work." If Meucci makes claims about special performance enhancements due to unique design features, I want data and evidence to prove to me that it isn't just a bunch of marketing hype. I'm not writing this to put you down or to criticize. I just want more than "it works for me and has excellent feel." Many people will say that about cues they like ... and other people will say the exact opposite about the same cues.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 04:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... On a serious note, do you know how the ferrule is attached to the cue to allow for the reported ferrule-shimmy action? Also, do you think it really works? ... <hr /></blockquote>
I've never cut one open to see what was inside, nor have I followed Meucci's advertising info, but I've been told that the new ferrule design was sort of free-floating without touching the tenon. This seems like it would be the same as using a hollow tube for the ferrule, until the wiggling ferrule hit the tenon. <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the info. So the ferrule is attached at the base only? I wonder how this would stand up to abuse (from normal play) over time, with such a small glued area.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 04:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Seems like I'm about 20 years behind on my Meucci lore...tiny ball bearings, springs.....all this just to hit a cue ball?
I think we have reached the limits of technology as it applies to the shaft...and the next breakthrough will be on the stroke itself.
I'm thinking along the lines of a snake, or wiggle movement, where the shaft using a combination of tuck and roll,nip and tuck, combined with ulnar and palmer deviation, first sends the shaft outward at an angle then just before contact, the cue is whipped back across the center line to produce max spin rate. <hr /></blockquote>Thank you for those insightful suggestions. I will try to start a regimented practice routine based on your teachings tomorrow. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 04:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, unless Meucci has changed their material (haven't checked them out lately) they use a thermoplastic (soft) ferrule, while others are using a harder thermoset material.
And they use a longer ferrule then most.
From an article that I read way back, this was Bob's theory in the 70's, that allowing the shaft to yield...vibrate,and produced greater spin on the CB....and that proved to be correct, in the era of computers.
And he did all this without a $300k squirt machine.
(Six student project engineers @ $50k per student, per semester...) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>For you only, I am willing to offer a 50% discount. That's a rock-bottom price of only $150k. I know you want one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,
Dave

Heretic
01-29-2008, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... On a serious note, do you know how the ferrule is attached to the cue to allow for the reported ferrule-shimmy action? Also, do you think it really works? ... <hr /></blockquote>
I've never cut one open to see what was inside, nor have I followed Meucci's advertising info, but I've been told that the new ferrule design was sort of free-floating without touching the tenon. This seems like it would be the same as using a hollow tube for the ferrule, until the wiggling ferrule hit the tenon. <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the info. So the ferrule is attached at the base only? I wonder how this would stand up to abuse (from normal play) over time, with such a small glued area.

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Meuccis are my favorite production cue. I have a number of them made in 4 different decades, and have never had a problem with ferrules on any of them. This is saying a lot, because a friend and I both use older ones as break sticks.

Artemus
01-29-2008, 05:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
On a serious note, do you know how the ferrule is attached to the cue to allow for the reported ferrule-shimmy action? Also, do you think it really works?

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Unless it gives you a wedgie to talk to someone who never got a GED and who isn't associated with elitist aristocracy, I'll throw my 2 cents in until Bob answers.<hr /></blockquote>I wish I knew why you apparently have a hang-up with educated people. Were you beat up by a gang of PhDs when you were little? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif If so, don't take it out on me. Maybe you can find some kind of support group to help you through your past negative emotions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<font color="red"> I do have a support group. They're called REAL POOL PLAYERS. Nope, was never beat up by a Ph.D. as a child because I never knew any child Ph.D.'s. If I were to have been beaten as a child by a Ph.D., they would have been adults and currently in jail for beating a kid. LMAO </font color>

Seriously, I try not to judge anybody based on their educational level. I do express my opinions about what people write, and I think I give everybody the same treatment regardless of the number or types of degrees the person might have. I expect and try to demonstrate mutual respect among all people, whether they have GEDs or PhDs or not.

<font color="red"> I only phrased it in such a way that I never got a GED to mess with you a little. I didn't need to get a GED, I have a degree. LOL </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Something works! I don't know how it's attached nor do I know if it's specifically the ferrule, but as bad a rap that Meucci ALWAYS GETS on pool forums regarding quality, customer service, whippy shafts (which nobody can quantify), or inlays popping out, a Meucci cue flat out shoots great. I have a Meucci Original circa 1979 or 80, and the newer models purchased about 4 years ago and they have excellent feel and control. If a person falls for the usual negativity of forum naysayers, they'll never experience what I'm talking about or buy one. Their loss.
The black dot shaft is a warping POS though. Red dots are really quite decent. So, if it isn't the ferrule that's working, what is it? Many a super player has used them in the past and still do. <hr /></blockquote>Thank you for your thoughts. I tend to prefer data to anecdotal statements. Lot's of cues "work." If Meucci makes claims about special performance enhancements due to unique design features, I want data and evidence to prove to me that it isn't just a bunch of marketing hype. I'm not writing this to put you down or to criticize. I just want more than "it works for me and has excellent feel." Many people will say that about cues they like ... and other people will say the exact opposite about the same cues.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> If you want data, you're the data man and so are your bunch of students. I just play, something you should try doing yourself. Oh yeah, also try playing for some of that hard earned money and learn how to WIN. Or in your case, don't lose the retirement fund. LMAO Now, go buy some Meucci's and gather your data or you aren't doing your job. I'll be doing my job, PLAYING.</font color>

dr_dave
01-29-2008, 06:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>I just play, something you should try doing yourself.<hr /></blockquote>You don't seriously think I don't play pool, do you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

FYI, I have a table in my basement. I don't play every day, but at least once a week. I also try out all shots I write about. I've also filmed all of my video demos while playing on my table.

I love understanding the game and writing about it, but I also love watching and playing the game. I just don't have as much time as some people do to dedicate to playing.

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
01-29-2008, 06:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>I just play, something you should try doing yourself.<hr /></blockquote>You don't seriously think I don't play pool, do you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

FYI, I have a table in my basement. I don't play every day, but at least once a week. I also try out all shots I write about. I've also filmed all of my video demos while playing on my table.

I love understanding the game and writing about it, but I also love watching and playing the game. I just don't have as much time as some people do to dedicate to playing.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Great! Now if you get a couple of Meucci's along with a few other cues you can acquire more data than you can handle by setting up all kinds of different shots and fire 100 with each cue on each shot. That should be somewhere around 4,000 shots. Record your findings. Then come back and tell us the results. I'll be more than willing to listen to your findings from you actually getting on the table yourself instead of a robot doing it or you jerking around on your Texas Instruments hand held calculator in the classroom. Who cares about the theoretical garbage. Get on that table of yours and do your OWN data by shooting. (once a week??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif) I probably get as much table time as you do by 10:30 am on ANY morning of the week, seriously.

Cydpkt
01-30-2008, 01:17 AM
If you have looked at his web site then you would see that he does shoot. This thread was about ferrules lets try to stick with that and leave the personal attacks to PM's.

Artemus
01-30-2008, 05:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> If you have looked at his web site then you would see that he does shoot. This thread was about ferrules lets try to stick with that and leave the personal attacks to PM's. <hr /></blockquote>

I know what he does and doesn't do on the table and I've seen it on the videos. Unless you have a reading disorder, you would have already noticed that I contributed more than my fair share about ferrules. Go back and read.

Cydpkt
01-30-2008, 10:20 AM
Yeah again...how does child abuse work into the whole ferrule thread? I guess I can't make that jump so "I" must be the one with the disorder.

Deeman3
01-30-2008, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> don't lose the retirement fund.

<font color="blue"> I'm willing to lose my retirement fund. I play about as often as Dave so you should be a mortal lock. </font color>



I'll be doing my job, PLAYING.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> If playing is your job, where do you work? </font color>

wolfdancer
01-30-2008, 12:43 PM
Who cares about the theoretical garbage. Get on that table of yours and do your OWN data by shooting. (once a week??? ) I probably get as much table time as you do by 10:30 am on ANY morning of the week, seriously.
The "theoretical garbage" as you call it.....is interesting to many here...and he's both a well liked and respected member here. Never has claimed to be anything more then an amateur pool player. Not sure though, if he belongs to an HOA. You must be the #1 player in your area...maybe even the bestest player here???

Jal
01-30-2008, 06:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Something works! I don't know how it's attached nor do I know if it's specifically the ferrule, but ...<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for your thoughts. I tend to prefer data to ***anecdotal*** statements...<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave, you just said the magic word. That should keep his blood up for another week or two.

Jim