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av84fun
01-29-2008, 01:37 AM
The frustrations associated with the less than perfect state of affairs in American pro pool seems to be manifesting itself in complaints suggesting that 9 Ball is "too easy" and should be replaced with 10 Ball.

One noted poster even suggested in another thread that 9 Ball is not a game of skill AT ALL. Of course, that was a gross exaggeration and is proven as such based on the frequency with which a relatively small number of players win a hugely disproportionate percentage of the winnings.

If any game is pure chance...like flipping coins...then over time there cannot be any disproportionate winners.

But rather than abandon the game that has become the pro tour game of choice for so many decades, much better to merely fix a FEW rules of the game which would make it meaningfully more difficult.

Note that I do not believe that the game NEEDS to be made more difficult and in fact it might be counter-productive to do so because even FEWER names would dominated the top of the leader board and force players out of the tour for lack of a chance to win money.

But IF the game needs to be made somewhat more difficult...here is how to do it...and note that some of these rules were actually in place years ago and were ABANDONED so as to make the game move more quickly thereby appealing to a greater mass of people.

1. 9 Ball spots if made in any pocket on the break but the breaker continues his/her inning.

2. No soft breaks. 3 Balls must pass the head string on the break (men...2 women).

3. All shots must be called...ball and pocket...no slop (which is how 8 Ball is played in many parts of the country). Slop balls stay down and incoming shooter plays from where the CB comes to rest...no BIH. NOTE: If the called ball is pocketed and ANOTHER ball drops due to a carom/kiss, that ball stays down and the player continues his/her inning.

4. Jump cues allowed. People CHEER LOUDLY when a jump shot is made and it is beyond silly to enact rules that eliminate features of the game that the audiences LOVE!

5. Alternate break...of course...since winner breaks creates the preposterous chance that one "competitor" may never get a shot in an entire match. In addition, it MAGNIFIES the luck factor in pool since making a ball AND ending up with a shot on the lowest ball AND having a run out layout 5-7 (or more) times in a row is LUCKY...period.

The abvoe rules would make the game measurably more difficult without virtually eliminating the skill and crowd-pleasing productive hard break shot as is the case in 10 Ball where dry breaks are much more frequent than in 9 Ball.

The dry break aspect of 10 Ball is supposed to reduce the "luck factor" but I know of no evidence that it does.

For the 10 Ball break to be other than lucky, the dry breaker must leave no shot on the 1 Ball (makable shot or strong safety opportunity) and that sort of layout results...or does not result...from anything other than random luck.

If anyone thinks 9 Ball...even the way it is played today is easy...they should just pay closer attention to pro matches and count the number of unforced errors...and NOT just missed shots...but missed SHAPE that forces a miss on a MUCH more difficult shot or causes a safety to be played.

You will find a significantly higher correlation between unforced errors and loss of rack relative to lucking a ball in and winning a rack.

Regards,
Jim

Artemus
01-29-2008, 08:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> The frustrations associated with the less than perfect state of affairs in American pro pool seems to be manifesting itself in complaints suggesting that 9 Ball is "too easy" and should be replaced with 10 Ball.

<font color="red"> It is too easy. 10 ball is better but how about 15 ball rotation played like 9 ball with the 15 being the win ball. Now, THAT is tough. All current rules of 9 ball apply with NO change. </font color>

One noted poster even suggested in another thread that 9 Ball is not a game of skill AT ALL. Of course, that was a gross exaggeration and is proven as such based on the frequency with which a relatively small number of players win a hugely disproportionate percentage of the winnings.

<font color="red"> You're right. </font color>

If any game is pure chance...like flipping coins...then over time there cannot be any disproportionate winners.

<font color="red"> Yep. </font color>

But rather than abandon the game that has become the pro tour game of choice for so many decades, much better to merely fix a FEW rules of the game which would make it meaningfully more difficult.

<font color="red"> OK, sounds good so far. </font color>

Note that I do not believe that the game NEEDS to be made more difficult and in fact it might be counter-productive to do so because even FEWER names would dominated the top of the leader board and force players out of the tour for lack of a chance to win money.

<font color="red"> But isn't that what separates the men from the pretenders and wannabe's? If not, then we're back to more rolls of the dice and lady luck. </font color>

But IF the game needs to be made somewhat more difficult...here is how to do it...and note that some of these rules were actually in place years ago and were ABANDONED so as to make the game move more quickly thereby appealing to a greater mass of people.

1. 9 Ball spots if made in any pocket on the break but the breaker continues his/her inning.

<font color="red"> Believe it or not, I'd like to see this rule left alone. If the 9 gets knocked in on the break, it's a win. Gotta have some excitement. </font color>

2. No soft breaks. 3 Balls must pass the head string on the break (men...2 women).

<font color="red"> I'd like to see the option for 3 or 4 breaks with the breaker stating which he's using. 1.A regular slam break with a call shot on a ball to go in. If it goes in another pocket, doesn't go in, or a different ball goes in, he loses his turn. 2. A 14.1 style break where 2 balls have to hit a rail and any ball out of the rack can be hit to do it. 3. The 1 ball has to hit a rail either from hitting it square or coming in from behind the rack on the break to send it into a rail. 4. Your suggestion as you stated. </font color>

3. All shots must be called...ball and pocket...no slop (which is how 8 Ball is played in many parts of the country). Slop balls stay down and incoming shooter plays from where the CB comes to rest...no BIH. NOTE: If the called ball is pocketed and ANOTHER ball drops due to a carom/kiss, that ball stays down and the player continues his/her inning.

<font color="red"> I'm in agreement with the no slop rule. It should stand. </font color>

4. Jump cues allowed. People CHEER LOUDLY when a jump shot is made and it is beyond silly to enact rules that eliminate features of the game that the audiences LOVE!

<font color="red"> My inclination is to disagree with jump cues allowed, but I think it should be limited to once per rack. </font color>

5. Alternate break...of course...since winner breaks creates the preposterous chance that one "competitor" may never get a shot in an entire match. In addition, it MAGNIFIES the luck factor in pool since making a ball AND ending up with a shot on the lowest ball AND having a run out layout 5-7 (or more) times in a row is LUCKY...period.

<font color="red"> Sounds good. </font color>

Regards,
Jim (my buddy Jim in black and <font color="red"> Artemus in red </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> There are two other things I'd like to see mulled over. One idea was told to me yesterday by a good player here and I like it. A DESIGNATED pocket for the 9 ball before the game is started for both players. Or another way to do it is for each player to draw a pill for pockets and their location and THAT is the pocket they have to knock the 9 ball in to win.

Another thing that would take a lot of luck out is 2 shot call ahead on the pocket. In other words, if you're shooting at the 1 ball, not only do you have to call the pocket for the 1, but at the same time point out which pocket the 2 and 3 will go into. When you're on the 2, then you add the 4 and so on down the line. Nothing worse than having somebody slam balls around and get lucky as hell on the next ball with a shot when they had no idea where the CB was going to end up. So thems be my thoughts. </font color>

Cydpkt
01-29-2008, 09:43 AM
If you are changing all the rules of 9 ball it is no longer 9 ball. Make up a whole new set up rules and call it something else. I would rather see smaller races allowing a soft break, if a player gets a shot at the table they better make it count. If you take a GMC and replace everything with Ford parts is it still a GMC? I would like to see a set standard of rules the Olympics, then go from there. 9 ball rewards players who have a strong safety game, but with that said a person still has to be able to shoot. How many matches are won by the 3 consecutive foul rule?

Artemus
01-29-2008, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> If you are changing all the rules of 9 ball it is no longer 9 ball. Make up a whole new set up rules and call it something else. <hr /></blockquote>

How about 9-ball original; 9-ball version2; 9-ball version3; 9-ball version4

You pick which version is to be played. At least you know what you're playing, unlike 8-ball. Depending on what room, what bar, what part of the country you're in NOTHING is the same.

Cydpkt
01-29-2008, 10:16 AM
<font color="red">Nothing worse than having somebody slam balls around and get lucky as hell on the next ball with a shot when they had no idea where the CB was going to end up. So thems be my thoughts. </font color>

I don't mind it when someone slams the balls around. They don't stay lucky for long. Wait for the swing from the "pool gods" and make the most of it when you get back to the table.

av84fun
01-29-2008, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> If you are changing all the rules of 9 ball it is no longer 9 ball. Make up a whole new set up rules and call it something else. I would rather see smaller races allowing a soft break, if a player gets a shot at the table they better make it count. If you take a GMC and replace everything with Ford parts is it still a GMC? I would like to see a set standard of rules the Olympics, then go from there. 9 ball rewards players who have a strong safety game, but with that said a person still has to be able to shoot. How many matches are won by the 3 consecutive foul rule? <hr /></blockquote>

As noted, most of the rules I suggested were IN FORCE in days gone by. I have videos of matches including Mosconi, Wimpy etc. where the no slop and spot the 9 rules were in effect.

But rules change all the time without "changing the game". I doubt there has ever been a year in the history of the NFL where some rules wasn't changed.

9 Ball is simply Rotation with 6 balls removed. Within that context, there are lots of potential rules and it's still 9 Ball.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-29-2008, 12:17 PM
Artemus..."It is too easy."

WOW...You're going to have to give me the 5/7 and the snap if we ever play...which I would love to to some day...because I don't think the game is too easy.

And if it is too easy, how come there were 7 unforced errors in the WPC finals between Peach and Gomez?

There is an urban myth about the break and run percentage and the "ghost" run out percentage...i.e. when a player breaks dry and the opponent has a shot on the 1 ball, what is the run out percentage? It is a LOT lower than most people think.

It's like straight pool. Many people think that as soon as a championship player can get into the rack, they are going to run 125 and out all the time.

But the TRUTH is that Mosconi did it less than 10% of the time.

Most tournament matches went 15-25 innings which proves that
A) even the greates players of all time dog shots from time to time and
B) 14.1 is NOT the luck-free game that some purists would have us believe. There is PLENTY of luck associated with how the balls break apart AND SOMETIMES RE-CLUSTER etc.

Regards,
Jim

Jager85
01-29-2008, 12:51 PM
Why does everybody always pick on 9-ball? Each and every game there is played in pool has its easier spots and its harder spots. 9-ball may be an easier safety game and strategy game, but it is not as easy to runout as it is in 8-ball. In 9-ball you have to setup for one specific ball each turn; if you overroll a ball by 1-2inches this could make the next shape tough and it snowballs from there. In eight ball there are many options and if you miss one shape by an inch or two there will most likely be another option.

The only thing I could agree on with 9-ball is the whole slop thing. I believe all pool games should be called ball to pocket. As far as no soft breaks go this is the most irritating rule people complain about. If no soft breaks are allowed then taking the one ball in either side should be illegal as well because this ensures a made ball on the break...whats better than that?

If the game is too easy then how come all the people saying it are only watching and not on TV themselves? To anyone who says it is too easy hand them a stick, put them on a 9-foot Diamond table, and let them show you how easy it is.

Artemus
01-29-2008, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Artemus..."It is too easy."

WOW...You're going to have to give me the 5/7 and the snap if we ever play...which I would love to to some day...because I don't think the game is too easy.

<font color="red"> I said the game was easy, but I'm certainly not going to make it HARD on myself by giving money away.
Why bother to play, I'll just send the money to you.
We can play all day everyday for a week even, or you can have the 8 with the rules I laid out. </font color>

And if it is too easy, how come there were 7 unforced errors in the WPC finals between Peach and Gomez?

<font color="red"> Nerves, all nerves. Why do other matches have shooting percentages in the high .800's or in the .900's? </font color>

There is an urban myth about the break and run percentage and the "ghost" run out percentage...i.e. when a player breaks dry and the opponent has a shot on the 1 ball, what is the run out percentage? It is a LOT lower than most people think.

<font color="red"> I think if memory serves me correctly, break and runs are somewhere in the high 20% range to low 30% range. When a player is red hot with the break, it can be even higher for a 1 or 2 set match, which is all they need. </font color>

It's like straight pool. Many people think that as soon as a championship player can get into the rack, they are going to run 125 and out all the time.

But the TRUTH is that Mosconi did it less than 10% of the time.

<font color="red"> Mosconi, when playing tournaments just like the other greats, went for the WIN any way he could get it. And that involves a lot of defensive safety play or even going in the red with penalties until you can dig yourself out. All of those guys were great defensively, but defense is boring. </font color>

Most tournament matches went 15-25 innings which proves that
A) even the greates players of all time dog shots from time to time and
B) 14.1 is NOT the luck-free game that some purists would have us believe. There is PLENTY of luck associated with how the balls break apart AND SOMETIMES RE-CLUSTER etc.

<font color="red"> Sure, everybody dogs shots, but again they went that many inning also because of caution and defense.
There's less "luck" involved with top 14.1 players. They have a much better feel for how to break the rack apart and know before hand where the balls are most likely to go and where to position the CB for insurance shots. </font color>

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> All of this going back and forth between the two of us is a waste of time anyway. It seems like 9 ball is still going to be the game of choice with or without changes. It's fast and moreso now than ever, it has to be TV friendly. </font color>

av84fun
01-29-2008, 04:56 PM
Artemus..."All of this going back and forth between the two of us is a waste of time anyway. It seems like 9 ball is still going to be the game of choice with or without changes. It's fast and moreso now than ever, it has to be TV friendly."

Nah...it's discussions like this that got the rules changed in the first place!

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