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mikepage
01-30-2008, 12:31 PM
In another post someone commented that "intuition" was unrelated to learning and knowledge. I think that's untrue.
Here's my view of how the two are related.

Some people insist they learn only by practice (repetition)and feel they are doing something fundamentally different from someone else who practices and also tries overtly to understand what is going on. I believe they are not doing something fundamentally different.

Here is my view of how we learn things. When you say to yourself, 'ah, I remember this shot,' or 'I know how to hit this,' or 'I need to hit this shot hard on this table to get around three rails,' think about where this 'intuitive' knowledge comes from. It comes from experience for sure. It comes from remembering things that have happened before in similar situations. But how do you go about 'remembering' the right things?

When you hit a ball and get a certain result (say the cueball rolls a certain distance) just what is it that you remember about the experience. I'm not talking about a conscious remembering, I'm talking about the development of intuition. Do you remember what you were wearing? Do you remember the day of the week? Do you remember who you're
playing? Do you remember what music was playing? Do you remember who's at the table next to you? Do you remember whether your shoes feel tight? Do you remember whether you're thirsty? Do you remember whether the balls are shiny? Do you remember whether you got to bed early the night before? .... There are countless potential pieces of information to catalog when you shoot that shot, and somehow in time we start to catalog many of the right things.

This process of learning *what* to catalog is about building a model of the situation. To separate the reams of (possibly) useless information from the useful information, we must create models of the world around us. This is not just what the analytical types do, this is what *everyone* does. It's the way we establish our world view, our concept of reality. When we get a feeling a table plays fast, there are definite characteristics of a physical model that are implied. It's implied that there is a "table speed" that is characteristic of all shots on that table that day. It's implied that soft-hit shots and hard-hit shots are both affected similarly. It's implied that the "speed" across the table is the same as the "speed" up and down the table. It's implied that if the cueball rolls fast, the object balls roll fast too, and on and on.

Some of these models we develop on our own; others we get from other people. A model can be wrong and still be useful in a practical sense. The model that the earth is flat is useful for compiling information and developing intuition so long as we don't travel too far. In pool, the model that to get draw, you have to accelerate through the ball or have a long follow through are for the most part useful--or at least not harmful.

The difficulty comes when you try to extend your knowledge to new situations. If your model is not consistent with the results, you won't catalog the right things, and learning will be retarded.

Here is an analogy: Take someone who has never driven a car
before--someone from a remote jungle tribe who had never even heard of a car. Give him a rear-wheel drive vehicle and let him drive in the snow and ice for thousands of hours. Don't let him see the car from the outside at all or even know it has wheels, let alone how many. In time he
will get very good at not getting stuck and at figuring out what he can get away with and what he can't. He will learn how to steer when he starts to skid in order to best regain control. He will learn by doing and develop an intuition. He also will, necessarily, have developed models that go along with this intuition. And those models will fit his experience pretty well.

Now, give this jungle tribesperson a *front wheel drive* vehicle. The person will have a hell of a time. Things won't seem to work right, but it won't make any sense. Thing'll just seem all screwed up. His models
will be useless. Learning about the new situation will be very difficult.

*IF* however, his model of the situation--from the beginning-- involved understanding the first car was rear-wheel drive, and that steering involved the front wheels, and if the person had this context while developing intuition and skills in the first place, then it will be much easier for him to extend his intuition to the front-wheel drive situation, where you have to steer in a different direction and do different things when you start to skid.

This is my long winded way to say that learning things about the physics of pool and about squirt and swerve, etc--for those of us who like to do it--just contribute for us to the development of our models that are inextricably linked to the development of our intuition. You can learn to
play pool very well without making any overt effort to understand what's going on. [Stay inside the car if you want to] But all else being equal, you will be better off the more effort you put into understanding what is
going on.

imo of course

dr_dave
01-30-2008, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr>This is my long winded way to say that learning things about the physics of pool and about squirt and swerve, etc--for those of us who like to do it--just contribute for us to the development of our models that are inextricably linked to the development of our intuition. You can learn to play pool very well without making any overt effort to understand what's going on. [Stay inside the car if you want to] But all else being equal, you will be better off the more effort you put into understanding what is going on.<hr /></blockquote>Well stated ... and good analogies. However, maybe we should use the phrase "basic understanding of fundamental concepts" instead of "the physics of pool." The "physics" word apparently has a negative connotation for many.

Regards,
Dave

PS: This debate recurs on this board almost as frequently as the infamous "elbow drop or not" and "pause or not" debates. If people new to the board want to read past highlights on these or other debates, they can be found here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html). FYI, I've added your post under "mental aspects."

wolfdancer
01-30-2008, 12:58 PM
Do you remember what music was playing? Do you remember who's at the table next to you? Do you remember whether your shoes feel tight? Do you remember whether you're thirsty? Do you remember whether the balls are shiny? Do you remember whether you got to bed early the night before? ..
Mike, the Russians used those techniques to train their Olympic athletes.

wolfdancer
01-30-2008, 02:51 PM
I think the pool side here is getting a little "testy".
I don't like to see anyone attacked just because their contributions don't jive with someone else's. The problem with
having an "ego" in pool, is the next guy that walks into the room, might be able to give you the 6 out.
Your site is great (and the price is right), Mike has put out some great stuff as well.....it's appreciated by most of us here.
If I didn't agree with either of you, I'd post my view once and let it go.

Deeman3
01-30-2008, 04:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I think the pool side here is getting a little "testy".
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> TESTY, I'll show you Testy, you koolaid drinking, science believing, golf playing, anti-spin, guru.....I'll see your "hurumpt" and raise you a "piece of smog"... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Been having all these problems ever since they came up with that "the world is round, BS"...

Flat Earthers forever.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

av84fun
01-30-2008, 05:55 PM
Hi Mike,

VERY thoughtful post...as usual. In response, let me first start with defining the word "intuitition" to show that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the process of shooting pool.

Intuition
"The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition."

I THINK we agree...fundamentally...and I am not taking issue with you on your use of that word...because so many other do...and the word "feel" as well.

But I THINK your point is that there IS no intuition and there IS no "feel." What there is, is LEARNED BEHAVIOR that can sometimes evolve from rote trial and error and sometimes from a student/teacher relationship.

But NO ONE just bends over a shot at whacks away at it WITHOUT THE USE OF ANY "RATIONAL PROCESS" i.e. "intuitively."

Everyone AIMS...whether they think they do or not. Some do it FAR FASTER AND FAR MORE ACCURATELY than others but we ALL AIM!!

If Reyes or Strickland or SVB wants to bet me on that then they can stand there and look over their shots as long as they want...bend over the shot and IMMEDIATELY put a blind fold over their eyes and shoot by "intuition and feel" all they want and I will own their homes at the end of the match!!!


So, bottom line, we learn by observation, trial and error and instruction. We DO NOT play...at any reasonble level of skill...by intuition or FEEL.

What some SAY is "feel" is actually a conscious CHOICE of stroke speed...approach angle...english etc. that we have LEARNED on a VERY conscious level, is likely to work in the circumstance at hand.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments...and let me just repeat what I've said in this an other forums repeatedly which is that anyone who is REALLY serious about learning to play pool at a high level is making a BIG mistake not to put high quality INSTRUCTION at the top of the "to do list."

Regards,
Jim

jukeboxjon
01-31-2008, 03:21 PM
hi all new here but long time lurker, this thread made me want to chime in with my own thoughts i believe some might actually confuse muscle memory with intuition its a well know fact that repetition does breed an almost uncanny feeling for a shot even before its made , great site here

Deeman3
01-31-2008, 03:51 PM
Welcome to the jungle Jukebox. Every time I breed uncanny ability, I end up paying child support. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif But you do make a good point.

wolfdancer
01-31-2008, 03:58 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Dee, your humor always amazes me....thanks for the laugh!!

JoeW
02-01-2008, 05:25 PM
This will take a minute to read but I think it may be worth your time.

I teach intuition, or at lest how to use it. Here is a short version. You have things in life you like and things you don’t like. Let’s say it is people with red hair (sorry if you have red hair). When you were nine years old a red haired person beat you up. You don’t really remember much about it. There was a fight, you got beat and you almost never think about it. Any more. The mind locked this bad experience away.

Now every time you meet a red haired person you have an intuitive feeling that you are not going to like them. At your age you know some nice red headed people and some not so nice. None-the-less, you intuition tells you to be leery when you meet red haired people. That is intuition. It is based on a form of associative learning and you may or not be aware of what you think you know.

How does this apply to playing pool? Well you have learned many things playing pool and often they are tied to emotional reactions. Sometimes it is that “ah ha -- I did it,” feeling for a cut shot that got position where it wasn’t expected. You pack this and some other experiences away and pull them out when you intuitively feel that you are in a similar situation.

The real point here is that intuition, feel or what ever you want to call it is based on a learned experience. You can sharpen your intuition (I teach clinicians how to do this) by the way that you control what you learn. The key here is to associate pleasing emotions (however you define that) with successful experiences. It is for this reason that you should celebrate your success with any emotional exclamation that suits you. This helps to stick the learned phenomena in memory where intuition can call it up.

Of course we also need to be on the look out for the negative experiences and reprogram them so they do not interfere with a match.

Here is a closer look. Give two people 100 peas to sort in any way they choose to sort them. Tell them they must make five different groupings and have them work independently. Each will come up with their own system, wrinkled (or not), size, color, whatever. Now let three people listen to these two people talk about sorting peas and it will sound like they are in another world as they have their own pea sorting language and that language seems to be mysterious to us non pea sorters.

Why is this interesting? When it is combined with intuition it makes for a much larger repertoire of learned associations the person can use. In other words, the more you use words to sort out your pool playing behavior and associate these words with emotions your intuitions will be stronger, better, and more accurate.

Think of it this way. I define cue stick power as 1,2,3,4, etc. where “1” is the power to move the CB one length of the table. There is of course 1.2, 1.5, etc. Now when I make a “good” shot with excellent position I say to my self – “Way to go Joe, that was p=1.5 for that cut.” Insert big smile here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Over time I have “intuitively” learned how much muscle power is needed for various shots and now I simply say, I want the CB here when the shot is done.

Bottom line, intuition is highly useful, trainable, and it is necessary in some things.

dr_dave
02-01-2008, 05:34 PM
Excellent post!!! Welcome to the CCB.

Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> This will take a minute to read but I think it may be worth your time.

I teach intuition, or at lest how to use it. Here is a short version. You have things in life you like and things you don’t like. Let’s say it is people with red hair (sorry if you have red hair). When you were nine years old a red haired person beat you up. You don’t really remember much about it. There was a fight, you got beat and you almost never think about it. Any more. The mind locked this bad experience away.

Now every time you meet a red haired person you have an intuitive feeling that you are not going to like them. At your age you know some nice red headed people and some not so nice. None-the-less, you intuition tells you to be leery when you meet red haired people. That is intuition. It is based on a form of associative learning and you may or not be aware of what you think you know.

How does this apply to playing pool? Well you have learned many things playing pool and often they are tied to emotional reactions. Sometimes it is that “ah ha -- I did it,” feeling for a cut shot that got position where it wasn’t expected. You pack this and some other experiences away and pull them out when you intuitively feel that you are in a similar situation.

The real point here is that intuition, feel or what ever you want to call it is based on a learned experience. You can sharpen your intuition (I teach clinicians how to do this) by the way that you control what you learn. The key here is to associate pleasing emotions (however you define that) with successful experiences. It is for this reason that you should celebrate your success with any emotional exclamation that suits you. This helps to stick the learned phenomena in memory where intuition can call it up.

Of course we also need to be on the look out for the negative experiences and reprogram them so they do not interfere with a match.

Here is a closer look. Give two people 100 peas to sort in any way they choose to sort them. Tell them they must make five different groupings and have them work independently. Each will come up with their own system, wrinkled (or not), size, color, whatever. Now let three people listen to these two people talk about sorting peas and it will sound like they are in another world as they have their own pea sorting language and that language seems to be mysterious to us non pea sorters.

Why is this interesting? When it is combined with intuition it makes for a much larger repertoire of learned associations the person can use. In other words, the more you use words to sort out your pool playing behavior and associate these words with emotions your intuitions will be stronger, better, and more accurate.

Think of it this way. I define cue stick power as 1,2,3,4, etc. where “1” is the power to move the CB one length of the table. There is of course 1.2, 1.5, etc. Now when I make a “good” shot with excellent position I say to my self – “Way to go Joe, that was p=1.5 for that cut.” Insert big smile here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Over time I have “intuitively” learned how much muscle power is needed for various shots and now I simply say, I want the CB here when the shot is done.

Bottom line, intuition is highly useful, trainable, and it is necessary in some things.
<hr /></blockquote>

av84fun
02-01-2008, 10:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> In another post someone commented that "intuition" was unrelated to learning and knowledge. I think that's untrue. <hr /></blockquote>

Mike, I may be the one you refer to above and with great respect to you and JoeW, let me offer the following.

First, and most importantly, the investigations into what "intuition" is has been the subject of massive scientific study which, however, has produced an equally massive amount of disagreement between learned minds.

Therefore, the "most true" thing that can be said about the definition of "intuition" is that there is none that is widely accepted.

In addition, many such definitions have no basis in science but rather spiritual philosophy which ascribes intuition to the intervention of "higher powers" if not God herself.

So, I cannot and do not accuse anyone of being wrong regardless of what their definition might be.

Having said that, I find that the process of recalling actual knowledge from the subconscious "hippocampus" memory.

In my humble opinion, the scenarios you and JoeW have presented have to do with the recall of actual knowledge and therefore are not in accord with a very large body of scientific studies into intuition.

Below, I have cited just a few of the mountainous references into this subject which tend to suggest that, whatever intuition is, it is NOT the recall of actual knowledge or learned behaviors. For example:

The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.
The standard definition is "knowledge gained of something without the use of reasoning or the five basic senses". Throughout time, many of the great achievers have spoken of successful decisions they made based on hunches, insights, visions, and gut feelings

A University of Minnesota article summarizes intuition as follows:

Intuition describes a wide variety of ways you get information without using known logical or rational processes. All people have intuitive capabilities, but some might not be aware of them.

http://takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/therapies/intuition/what

From Wikipedia

It is "the immediate apprehension of an object by the mind without the intervention of any reasoning process" [Oxford English Dictionary].

Intuition, by definition, has no objective validity. However it is extremely widespread as an apparent phenomenon. For this reason, it has been the subject of study in Psychology, as well as a topic of interest in the supernatural.

So, IMHO, "intuition" plays no role in the evolution of physical skills such as playing pool. However, intuition CAN play a role in, for example, the final decision as to whether to bank or cut a shot. In such instances, your mind can call on its actual memory bank and report to you that the odds of cutting or banking a given shot are identical but you just FEEL that you are going to make the bank...so you shoot it.

But the preponderance of commentary on the intuitive process suggests that such a decision, virtually by definition, does not proceed from any rational process, which, also by definition, includes the recollection of stored knowledge.

Respectfully,
Jim

JoeW
02-01-2008, 11:49 PM
Intuition defined … It is "the immediate apprehension of an object by the mind without the intervention of any reasoning process" [Oxford English Dictionary].

Apprehension without some form of pattern recognition (or pattern matching based on prior experience) is the simple recognition of noise. In a neurophysiological sense, some of these apperceptions are hard wired into the system, such as the perception of right angles, etc.

To some extent we are getting into a semantic discussion. Consider that in order to apprehend and then successfully react to a stimulus the reaction must be based on some sort of prior association if it is to be successful on a regular basis. The formation of associations is one definition of learning.


Consider also that the Oxford definition quoted from your post does not preclude learning. It states that reasoning is not used. I assume the reference is to conscious, willful reasoning. Thus, one might exhibit a reaction pattern such as swinging a pool cue or a baseball bat without thinking (or reasoning) about the learned behavior.

While I agree there are many definitions of intuition, some are more useful than others with regard to the use of insightful behavior based on prior experience. I think that a thorough review of the application of intuition in the everyday world leads to the idea that knowledge and emotions are associated to form a reaction pattern that can be exhibited without the necessity of reasoning.

To go out on a limb a little I also think that intuitions are often continuous functions. That is we learn generalization gradients based on prior associations that is then applied in a particular situation. To generalize from my prior example and the person who has trouble with redheads, we also find the person is slightly uncomfortable around a strawberry blond. In this way one develops a “feel” for living and reacting to the world, including pool playing.

In general men in our culture generally do like to think that they are intuitive. We much prefer a term like a “feel” for the game. It amounts to the same thing.

With regard to the use of the word intuitive in metaphysical circles and similar situations I have shown (in other discussons) that people who refer to themselves as intuitives (a mild form of mediumship) use similar processes and often are not aware of the idea that they are using prior associations to make prescriptive statements. In general these types of intuitives train themselves to use information available in the environment. This is similar to “cold readings” without the callous motivations.

I am not discounting the work of Swedenborg and similar rare individuals who are in a whole other class of knowledge acquisition.

Finally, I think it is well recognized that the creative intuitions of some of the worlds greatest insights (Einstein’s work etc) are nearly all grounded in a great deal of prior learning that led to a new way to organize the data.

JoeW
02-02-2008, 12:01 AM
While intuitions may not appear to be "rational" they are based on ways of organizing the available information. I think that one of the fascinating aspects of intuitions is the very organization and use of stored information that does not use the "conscious" mind. It is their arational associations and reaction patterns that are fascinating to observe.

However, as indicated previously, intuitive abilities can be enhanced, fostered, and used in many areas.

Jal
02-02-2008, 12:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>...But the preponderance of commentary on the intuitive process suggests that such a decision, virtually by definition, does not proceed from any rational process, which, also by definition, includes the recollection of stored knowledge.<hr /></blockquote>Jim,

If I could remember more than three facts at a time, I would bring up Immanuel Kant at this point and expound on his categories of mind. But it seems like that is perhaps what you're referring to; that we need to make a distinction between the processes of mind that are prior to and independent of experience, and those that are molded by it. Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think you wish to restrict "intuition" to the former category, or simply report that that is more in line with its standard meaning.

If so, I think I agree. It's a nice and tidy definition and we already have words for actions made on the basis of both intuition and acquired knowledge and experience, eg, "judgement", "skill", "subconscious thingies", "feel", and probably others.

But even if it's written somewhere that the meaning of "intuition" absolutely is, and should be used in, the limited sense of the word, I'm afraid that some of us will continue to abuse it. But I think you make a valid point.

I hope I haven't misrepresented what you're saying too badly (or too thoroughly or whatever).

Jim

av84fun
02-02-2008, 12:58 AM
Joe...earlier, you stated "The real point here is that intuition, feel or what ever you want to call it is based on a learned experience."

Again, we can both rely on conflicting definitions which, as you point out, vary significantly between various cultures.

So, I am going to rely on the definitions...usages...that I find most persuasive which is that "intuition" is most useful in describing perceptions that are specifically NOT derived from prior learning.

In other words when someone says..."I just FELT someone behind me and started to run away." That person had no prior knowledge that someone was behind him/her. That, in my mind is intuitive...regardless of whether there actually was or was not a person behind them.

Your redhead analogy is clearly based on the ressurection of a prior learned experience. Few people would forget being beaten up...but even if deeply repressed, the learned behavior is still there in the mind.

So by seeing another redhead and becoming apprehensive does not conform to the definition of "intuition" that I prefer but rather conforms to the process of memory recall and the emotional stimulus occasioned by such recall.

Translating to pool, I believe that there is very nearly no such thing as intuitive or instinctive or "feel" behavior.

Rather, some people have a far greater facility than others to summon learned behavior from the subconscious to the conscious mind.

The player sees the shot on the table, bends over and pockets the ball SEEMINGLY without any conscious thought but that appearance, IMHO, is deceiving.

As you know, the brain's power to perform calculations in many instances is far superior to the most powerful supercomputers on earth.

The mere decision to proceed through an amber traffic light or come to a stop requires a HUGE amount of data processing including the estimation of speed, closure rate, the calculation of "time to red", the calculation of the decelleration rate...and most importantly, whether there are any cops in the vicinity! (-:

But we do all that in a second...but ONLY because we have lived that experience and related ones that can be translated, thousands of times. We don't decide to stop or proceed intuitively nor do we shoot pool shots intuitively.

Rather, we have shot that shot thousands of times and the brain decides exactly how it will direct the muscles in a fraction of a second and off we go...apparantly playing by "feel" but actually playing by recall of prior learned experiences.

And the whole notion of "natural" players...those who supposedly never learned anything from anyone else has no basis in fact whatsoever.

No one has ever been locked in a room by themselves with a pool table and emerged X length of time later as a world champion. Never.

Those players who may never have had FORMAL training in a student/teacher environment nevertheless learned from others...including Mosconi. He as a youth traveled and played THOUSANDS of innings of pool with Ralph Greenleaf who, were it not for his losing battle with booze might have been the greatest player of all time.

Willie has been quoted as saying that Greenleaf never taught him anything but of course, that is patently false. Willie learned by observation and by getting his fanny handed to him quite regularly by Mr. Greenleaf so in fact, Willie might have had the greatest teacher of all time.

In any event, I have enjoyed this discussion and submit my views contrary to yours respectfully.

Regards,
Jim

CarolNYC
02-02-2008, 06:19 AM
Hey Jim,
No, your not the one-"I" am the one who said intuition is independent of knowledge and has nothing to do with playing pool-
Have a nice day!
Carol

CarolNYC
02-02-2008, 07:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How does this apply to playing pool? Well you have learned many things playing pool and often they are tied to emotional reactions. Sometimes it is that “ah ha -- I did it,” feeling for a cut shot that got position where it wasn’t expected. You pack this and some other experiences away and pull them out when you intuitively feel that you are in a similar situation.
<hr /></blockquote>
Hi,
When you say "pull them out" arent you just recalling a LEARNED experience?
And is there any data regarding the rate of success or effectiveness between one player vs. another based on their individual use of intuition?
How does "intuition in aiming" meet any geometrical test on a given shot ,making it effective?
Carol

JoeW
02-02-2008, 10:29 AM
Let me come at this from a different perspective. We seem to have arrived at more of a semantic discussion of the term intuition. Whether the phenomenon is named a “feeling” “gut instinct” or “intuition” makes little differences to me.

Using the term to discuss what goes on in a mind that is not based on any prior experience belongs in the realm of philosophy for me – it is not something I can work with to attempt to explain everyday reality.

So let’s talk about the phenomenon that happens at a pool table when the individual says, “I just knew that was going to happen, I felt it.” The person may be referring to a particular shot or they may be referring to another person who walked in and they “just knew” they were going to win the match. I think that we know people who are good at this. That is, they are often able to predict the outcome of events based with what appears to be little prior knowledge. They are able to arrive at a course of action that is successful based on their “feelings.” From where you and I stand we do not understand how they arrived at these successful answers to a potential problem. In some cases there is no problem in evidence and the individual simply feels that such and such a course of action would be productive – they have a feeling, if you will, and they are better at using their “feelings” than many other people.

However and here is where it gets interesting, the person cannot tell us what they used or the basis of the feeling that led to their behavior. I suggest that when we know the basis of our feelings we say that our behavior is based on things we have learned. When we do not know the basis for our successful actions we say they we had a feeling. In both instances the behavior is based on prior learning. The difference is that in one we know or remember where or how we learned it.

This natural talent that involves the ability to use subtle prior experiences to predict outcomes even when one does not know where or how that information was obtained can be trained. In poker we have the word “tell” that addresses this issue from a different perspective. With a “tell” one knows to look for certain repeatable behaviors that have meaning.

I suggest that some people have this ability to read “tells” and are not aware that they do it. Your friend says to you, “Oh, we are not going to like this guy.” And they make this statement as the person is walking towards you. It turns out your friend was right, as they often are, and we wonder, “How does he do that?”

I suggest that he is more tuned into subtle behaviors and nuances in the environment and that often even he is not aware of how he is doing it – but he surely and consistently has these correct gut instincts.

I have learned that knowledge acquired out of awareness is often associated with emotions. In addition, the person who is able to operate in this way, going with their gut if you will, is often excellent at what they do. Some years ago I became interested in the idea that perhaps this ability could be trained if I could understand what was happening and then proceed to teach it to others.

My students (in the clinic and when working one on one over several months) have remarked that I am often “off the wall” asking questions that drill down to an issue that can be addressed to solve a patient’s problem. In an attempt to teach others how and what I do in my area of expertise I arrived at the ideas presented here. Next I attempted to work with others to enhance their “gut instincts” and find that this can be done if people are taught to attach emotions to what they learn, distance themselves from the emotions, and then learn to trust their “feelings.”

It is just another type of learning only it is a form that is usually not in one’s awareness. While we may not know the source of our knowledge it is often more useful than traditional approaches if used appropriately. The mind is capable of extraordinary things if we simply allow it to function without too much censure. The benefit of this approach is that it can be highly useful when combined with the more traditional approaches to problem solving. In my prior posts I was attempting to quickly convey how this can be accomplished. Call it what you will it can be used to improve your pool playing.

av84fun
02-02-2008, 02:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Let me come at this from a different perspective. We seem to have arrived at more of a semantic discussion of the term intuition. Whether the phenomenon is named a “feeling” “gut instinct” or “intuition” makes little differences to me.<hr /></blockquote>

I agree with that but it is not semantics to discuss the differences between feelings, instincts, intuition on the one hand and recalling learned behavior on the other...and that was the essential question posed in this thread i.e. is pool learned or can skill appear intuitively?

It is your suggestion that intuition is essentially based on prior learned behavior that I disagree with.


[ QUOTE ]
In poker we have the word “tell” that addresses this issue from a different perspective. With a “tell” one knows to look for certain repeatable behaviors that have meaning.

I suggest that some people have this ability to read “tells” and are not aware that they do it.<hr /></blockquote>

There may be rare exceptions to every rule but in poker, the detection of tells has been reduced to more of a science than an art. Numerous books deal with tells in extensive detail.

Most tells are "classic" and the vast majority of players are prone to them and cannot prevent them...which is why so many players wear sun glasses or wide brimmed hats.

Less frequently, tells are specific to the individual and must be overtly detected by the opponent which requires time and an extremely good memory so that a massive number of physical movements can eventually be associated with certain player behavior. (exceptional visual memory is a characteristic of most champion poker players).

In addition, proving the thesis that some players detect tells unknowingly would be highly problematic. If the player does not know he/she is detecting tells, how can anyone else prove they are?

The only way to do so would be for the researcher to detect the tells and then correlate the opponent's behavior with correct tactics suggested by the tell.

But correct tactics are OFTEN a function factors derived from the lay of the cards...betting strategies...assessments of the opponent's normal aggressivness or conservatism...etc.

Any one or more of those factors could drive the player's decisions and therefore, the association of a tell with that decision would be hopelessly tainted.

Bottom line, in my personal opinion, pool skills result entirely from learned behavior and the ability to recall them and that intuition has nothing to do with that process.

The word "feel" is more difficult to dismiss for definitional reasons. "Feel" is often used to mean the mental estimation of a required physical act....such as how hard to press on a brake pedal.

But I suggest that the ability to perform such estimations is based on the recall of LEARNED EXPERIENCES as any poor, long-suffering Driver Ed teacher will swear to.

Finally, I think we are delving too deeply into the scientific aspects of this topic.

The essential question was whether learning or intuition is at the heart of the acquisition of pool skills.

The essence of the question was whether there are people who have become advanced players based on just KNOWING how to pocket balls and get shape without having LEARNED how to do so by some combination of instruction or rote trial and error.

I suggest that there are no known and documented examples of advanced pool skills showing up spontaneously.

Of course, there are some extremely rare examples, including autistic savants, who have been known to be able to play complex music on a piano having only heard the music on a record or on the radio and having never put their hands on a keyboard.

But I am aware of no documented example of any person approaching a pool table for the first time and being able to break and run a rack of 9 Ball or run 40-50 balls in straigt pool.

Until I see the evidence of that having happened, I will hold to the belief that it never has and that, therefore, pool skills are LEARNED and are not a result of any spontaneous phenomenon of whatever definition.

For example, young Landon Suffet may be the best known example of a prodigy pool player. But his dad is a BCA Certified instructor. And I asked his dad not long ago on another forum whether Landon's speed was inate or a result of his instruction and Landon's dedication to practice.

His reponse was to the effect that "without the instruction, Landon wouldn't have any speed at all."...and on that, I rest my case.

Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim

CarolNYC
02-02-2008, 03:14 PM
My college years consisted of alot of Bio,chem and after taking the NYPD test,criminology,abnormal psychology and sociology-headed towards the forensic field-(have a family member in forensics)
After reading this, it sounded like one of my college professors and my "intuition" told me to click on your name and "voila",there you are-doctor of psychology

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest that some people have this ability to read “tells” and are not aware that they do it. Your friend says to you, “Oh, we are not going to like this guy.” And they make this statement as the person is walking towards you. It turns out your friend was right, as they often are, and we wonder, “How does he do that?”

I suggest that he is more tuned into subtle behaviors and nuances in the environment and that often even he is not aware of how he is doing it – but he surely and consistently has these correct gut instincts<hr /></blockquote>

My husband does this and I always thought it was intuition!
Hmmmmmmm,interesting!
Its funny, I mentioned we needed a dr. of psychiatry when I should have said Psychology and,for some players,psychiatry /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol
Oh, welcome to the board /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

wolfdancer
02-02-2008, 03:33 PM
Joe your "P1.5" idea has some similarities to what they teach at RandyG's fine pool school, Cue-Tech. I haven't attended,but get a little of the info, second-hand from a friend.
I have ne problem with red-heads, but in the Navy, when we had to make fine adjustments, we would move things another "rch"
(the finest adjustment known) was it's legend.
I'd be interested in learning more about intuition...any recommendations?
Welcome to the board....excellent posts, thanks for the info!!!

wolfdancer
02-02-2008, 04:18 PM
speaking of intuition...Amber, the 20 yr old Orangutan, has picked the Pats, over the Giants...she can't speak of course, but knows they got the wrong Man(ning) in there as QB

JoeW
02-02-2008, 04:20 PM
Hi folks - yeah I am a retired shrink -- we all have our crosses to bear. But I am also a Marine (there are no ex-marines) so I know a little about the legendary RCH. And no I don't have any good references on learning to use intuition, feel, gut reactions etc. There are several works available on the topic but none I would recommend. Maybe I just haven't read any with which I agree.

I do think that when we practice and get excited about the good things we do that we store away this information. Unfortunately far too many people think it is not mature (or adult like) to get excited about the good things in life and hence it takes far longer to get these good things implanted in memory.

Watch a 10 - 12 year old play at some sport and the very real fun they have. Learning to ride a bike is a ball and we quickly learn to far exceed our early expectations. We often complain about the abilities that young people exhibit but we seldom emulate them

Playing pool should first and foremost be fun. In this way we will retain far more information.

wolfdancer
02-02-2008, 04:58 PM
Its funny, I mentioned we needed a dr. of psychiatry when I should have said Psychology and,for some players,psychiatry

there you go, picking on me again....

CarolNYC
02-02-2008, 06:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
there you go, picking on me again.... <hr /></blockquote> No,never , we kissed and made up-I was sorry /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

you know I love ya /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

Deeman3
02-04-2008, 08:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> speaking of intuition...Amber, the 20 yr old Orangutan, has picked the Pats, over the Giants...she can't speak of course, but knows they got the wrong Man(ning) in there as QB <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> There appears to be no "wrong Manning" in the NFL... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif We are waiting for you to eat your hat with humble pie. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

CarolNYC
02-04-2008, 08:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
We are waiting for you to eat your hat with humble pie. <hr /></blockquote>
Start eating Jack,ha ha ha!

As far as intuition in pool, I think its being confused with judgement-
I think intuition is used when your watching your opponent and can see by their body language,facial expressions,etc. that their losing their confidence,know their going to lose,start making mistakes-
As ,for shooting and aiming,if theirs DOUBT,one is using their judgement based on experience and success and hopefully their better judgement!
Carol

sygfrid
02-07-2008, 01:21 PM
IMO, INTUITION is the result of LEARNING: you've learned &amp; experienced something countless of times before that you already know the effect(s) of an action without analyzing every bits &amp; pieces of it anymore. I think in intuition, the "subconscious" part of the brain is the one that's more active &amp; accessing the stored/learned info rather than the "rational" part.

EX:If you're asked 20x5, in an instant you can answer it to be 100. You don't have to do the long computation of 20+20+20+20+20=100.

av84fun
02-08-2008, 12:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sygfrid:</font><hr> IMO, INTUITION is the result of LEARNING: you've learned &amp; experienced something countless of times before that you already know the effect(s) of an action without analyzing every bits &amp; pieces of it anymore. I think in intuition, the "subconscious" part of the brain is the one that's more active &amp; accessing the stored/learned info rather than the "rational" part.

EX:If you're asked 20x5, in an instant you can answer it to be 100. You don't have to do the long computation of 20+20+20+20+20=100.
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi,
It really doesn't make any difference how we all define "intuition" but the thread is entitled "learning versus intuition" so in keeping with the OP's original question, it is appropriate to make distinctions.

One problem is that the word "intuition" has different interpretations in philosophy, psychology and in different cultures but most reference sources define "intuition" as

"understanding without apparent effort, quick and ready insight independent of previous experiences or empirical knowledge."

Your example of knowing immediately that 5x20=100 is clearly based on prior knowledge...studying times tables, for example and therefore, does not comply with the above definition.

You wouldn't know, intuitively, that 1724x3658=6,306,393 because your times table studies never got quite that high....I assume!! (-:

So, what you are talking about is memory recall which GENERALLY is not considered to by synonymous with intuition.

Intuition, GENERALLY, would be, for example an unusual sense of foreboding as you approach an intersection on a green light and sure enough, some drunk runs the red light and would have T-Boned you had you not been extra cautious.

Translating to pool, IMO, referring to some players as "intuitive" or "instinctive" players is inaccurate.

We see great players just bend over shots, make them and get perfect shape SEEMINGLY by instinct or intuition. But in reality, they are recalling from their mental databases those same shots, which they have shot hundreds of thousands of times...in the case of the pros at least.

So there is no instinct or intuition at all in playing pool. Rather, there is very advanced memory recall combined with a high level of eye/hand coordination and "muscle memory" as we laymen refer to neuro-muscular communication.

I am neither a scientist nor and English major so all the above is simply my understanding of the issues.

Regards,
Jim

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 07:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, INTUITION is the result of LEARNING: you've learned &amp; experienced something countless of times before that you already know the effect(s) of an action without analyzing every bits &amp; pieces of it anymore. <hr /></blockquote>
Hi,
Based on the following definition I found online-arent you describing "knowledge"?

Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) expertise, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject, (ii) what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information or (iii) awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation

Whereas,intuition is defined as:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.Intuition has many related meanings, usually connected to the meaning "ability to sense or know immediately without reasoning", including:

Intuition is the philosophical method of Henri Bergson.
Intuition (philosophy)
In psychology, intuition may mean:
Intuition (knowledge) - <font color="red"> understanding without apparent effort, quick and ready insight seemingly independent of previous experiences or empirical knowledge
</font color>

So,say Im taking a shot that I KNOW is going to scratch-I say "Hmmmm,I "know" if I try to cut this ball,the cueballs scratching in the side,I better bank it"
Im not saying:
hmmmmmmmm,I "sense" or "feel' or "somethings telling me,I dont know why" if I cut this ball,the cueball is going to scratch in the side-
I know it is because I "Know!"I've scratched on the shot before from experience
I dont know /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I guess we all have different definitions for intuition /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Carol

JoeW
02-08-2008, 10:41 AM
I think that what is needed here is the recognition of the fuzziness of our language. Intuition can be variously defined. Depending upon the author and what they have in mind for the development of an idea, the term is used in various ways. Somewhat like the Eskimo who has seven words for “snow.” We have one word to define several concepts.

The person on the street uses the word intuition in any of several ways depending on the person you are speaking with. I suspect that what most people are taking about most of the time is a “feeling” that is named “intuition.”

If we were talking with a person at a New Age Convention then intuition may have a different meaning depending upon the person with whom we are talking. I have found in many instances that people who call themselves “intuitives” or a person able to use their feelings to describe your past and future life, as well as information from those who have died, are often using the term inappropriately. That is, many of these people are, albeit unintentionally, using their prior learning history to make statements and they believe they are using their “intuition.”

In the pool hall we are usually not concerned with these intuitive aspects of knowledge acquisition. The term intuition is used to describe knowledge acquired and used to perform a function (pocket a ball and get position). I suspect that while people use the term, “intuition” they are referring to a knowledge base wherein they do not know the source of the knowledge that was acquired. When we know where the knowledge came from we say “I know that.” When we do not know where the knowledge came from we often say, “I felt that.” When we describe the latter over several instances the term “intuition” is often applied to self or others. There are of course exceptions, but I am attempting to clarify terms and exceptions are expected.

When playing pool I think that we are more concerned with the idea of feelings for a shot. However, it is also true that people in our culture confuse the word feeling with the word knowledge in general. When I hold case conferences one of the first things that throws my graduate students back on their heels is when they begin their presentation with, “I feel that the patient …” I jump on them immediately and tell them that I could care less about how they “feel,” I want to know what they “think” about this problem. It is but one way of developing a professional’s thought processes.

This is by way of saying that if professional people, who are required to be objective in their practice, often confuse thinking with feeling it can be expected that this type of confusion is found throughout the culture. Considering the ways in which we label things is usually not of importance and people just proceed to use their usual ways of talking.

The idea that people often confuse feelings and thoughts is common so let’s consider what people actually mean when they say I have an intuition or I had a feeling. It amounts to the same thing; I knew, but I do not know how I knew, that I was going to make that shot.

We can tell people that they are using the wrong terms but it does little to help them use their feelings to play a better game. A person who says, “I ain’t got know feeling for the game.” Is telling me something, but it may take a while to figure out what he means.

So what does the player really mean when he says "Pros have an intuitive feel for the game"? Should we hold him to the literal definition of the terms or attempt to work with the poorly made statement? I vote for the latter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 10:51 AM
Excellent post. Thank you for your well-thought-out and well-written posts. I hope you are on this forum to stay.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I'm from New Orleans, where lots of people claim to have lots of "intuition." It comes from Voodoo Magic spirits. When Voodoo-magic or religious-freak pool players make a good shot, it is because the spirits and gods gave them good "intuition." When they miss, it is because the spirits or gods were not happy with them.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> I think that what is needed here is the recognition of the fuzziness of our language. Intuition can be variously defined. Depending upon the author and what they have in mind for the development of an idea, the term is used in various ways. Somewhat like the Eskimo who has seven words for “snow.” We have one word to define several concepts.

The person on the street uses the word intuition in any of several ways depending on the person you are speaking with. I suspect that what most people are taking about most of the time is a “feeling” that is named “intuition.”

If we were talking with a person at a New Age Convention then intuition may have a different meaning depending upon the person with whom we are talking. I have found in many instances that people who call themselves “intuitives” or a person able to use their feelings to describe your past and future life, as well as information from those who have died, are often using the term inappropriately. That is, many of these people are, albeit unintentionally, using their prior learning history to make statements and they believe they are using their “intuition.”

In the pool hall we are usually not concerned with these intuitive aspects of knowledge acquisition. The term intuition is used to describe knowledge acquired and used to perform a function (pocket a ball and get position). I suspect that while people use the term, “intuition” they are referring to a knowledge base wherein they do not know the source of the knowledge that was acquired. When we know where the knowledge came from we say “I know that.” When we do not know where the knowledge came from we often say, “I felt that.” When we describe the latter over several instances the term “intuition” is often applied to self or others. There are of course exceptions, but I am attempting to clarify terms and exceptions are expected.

When playing pool I think that we are more concerned with the idea of feelings for a shot. However, it is also true that people in our culture confuse the word feeling with the word knowledge in general. When I hold case conferences one of the first things that throws my graduate students back on their heels is when they begin their presentation with, “I feel that the patient …” I jump on them immediately and tell them that I could care less about how they “feel,” I want to know what they “think” about this problem. It is but one way of developing a professional’s thought processes.

This is by way of saying that if professional people, who are required to be objective in their practice, often confuse thinking with feeling it can be expected that this type of confusion is found throughout the culture. Considering the ways in which we label things is usually not of importance and people just proceed to use their usual ways of talking.

The idea that people often confuse feelings and thoughts is common so let’s consider what people actually mean when they say I have an intuition or I had a feeling. It amounts to the same thing; I knew, but I do not know how I knew, that I was going to make that shot.

We can tell people that they are using the wrong terms but it does little to help them use their feelings to play a better game. A person who says, “I ain’t got know feeling for the game.” Is telling me something, but it may take a while to figure out what he means.

So what does the player really mean when he says "Pros have an intuitive feel for the game"? Should we hold him to the literal definition of the terms or attempt to work with the poorly made statement? I vote for the latter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

JoeW
02-08-2008, 11:06 AM
Thanks Dr_Dave, I like the feeling of this place, I'll be here awhile. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Joe

wolfdancer
02-08-2008, 11:12 AM
Intution????...
That was a well written post from Dr. Joe...even made sense to
a dummy like myself. It's close to my own ideas of
RELATIONS BETWEEN THE ONTOGENY AND PHYLOGENY OF LANGUAGE: A NEO-RECAPITULATIONIST VIEW...(Ok, I didn't author that /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
But my own pool intuition can be explained using the theory of Lamarckian Inheritance...(my Mother once visited a pool hall)
While the theory is temporarily in dispute, how else can one explain, both Eli and Peyton Manning's ability???

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 11:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Thanks Dr_Dave, I like the feeling of this place, I'll be here awhile. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Joe<hr /></blockquote>I think your intuition about this place is good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 11:13 AM
Hi Dr.JoeW,
First and foremost, I like reading your words-
So, then my belief in what intuition is wrong......right? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Thank you for clarifying that and "teaching" me-
I hope you stay, as well, as Dr.Dave!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 11:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
PS: I'm from New Orleans, where lots of people claim to have lots of "intuition." It comes from Voodoo Magic spirits. When Voodoo-magic or religious-freak pool players make a good shot, it is because the spirits and gods gave them good "intuition." When they miss, it is because the spirits or gods were not happy with them.
<hr /></blockquote>
Well Dr. Dave, I think I can top you on that one-
Im of Hawaiian culture and when a volcano explodes, its Pele who's mad!
Dont piss her off /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Have a great day!
Carol

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>I hope you stay, as well, as Dr.Dave!<hr /></blockquote>I've had many people do their best to try to drive me off over the years with multiple insults, ridiculous slander, and relentless abuse. I think I've learned as much about people as I have about pool. I've also learned to develop a thicker skin than I used to have. I'm also better at perceiving and understanding what seems to motivate some people to be the way there are. I guess I'm getting better at personality "intuition." All of this "experience" has created lots of "knowledge" for me.

Don't worry ... I'm here to stay. Thank you for the encouragement.

Regards,
Dave

JoeW
02-08-2008, 11:29 AM
I liked wolfdancer's comment. Always need a good belly laugh.

Carol I think your definition is "right." I doubt that most pool players use it.

I seriously apologize if I sound too teacherish (I know it wasn't a criticism) but I tend to come accross that way unintentionally. Just too many years teaching I suppose. Actually, (as differentiated from a lie) I am simply posting my thoughts that I do not think are necessarily correct they are just my thoughts and subject to revision by anyone who can make a more persuasive argument.
Gotta run, time to put up some wall board and then PLAY POOL.

Before enlightenment chop wood and carry water, after enlightenment, chop woodand carry water. Enlightenment and $.89 gets me a cup of coffee at my seven eleven. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SKennedy
02-08-2008, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hi Dr.JoeW,
First and foremost, I like reading your words-
So, then my belief in what intuition is wrong......right? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Thank you for clarifying that and "teaching" me-
I hope you stay, as well, as Dr.Dave!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Wait a minute....before I welcome our new poster with open arms I have one question for him. Does he prefer to be called Dr. JoeW, JoeW, or does it matter? If he insists on the first, I'll never address him as such. If he chooses one of the latter, then I'll gladly call him by the former! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
02-08-2008, 11:33 AM
another explanation for intuition could be that of the theory of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The earth itself being a conscious organism, (where intuitives can tap into it's knowledge base???)
" he suggested that the Earth in its evolutionary unfolding, was growing a new organ of consciousness, called the noosphere. The noosphere is analogous on a planetary level to the evolution of the cerebral cortex in humans. The noosphere is a "planetary thinking network" -- an interlinked system of consciousness and information, a global net of self-awareness, instantaneous feedback, and planetary communication. At the time of his writing, computers of any merit were the size of a city block, and the Internet was, if anything, an element of speculative science fiction. Yet this evolution is indeed coming to pass, and with a rapidity, that in Gaia time, is but a mere passage of seconds. In these precious moments, the planet is developing her cerebral cortex, and emerging into self-conscious awakening. We are indeed approaching the Omega point that Teilhard de Chardin was so excited about."

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>PS: I'm from New Orleans, where lots of people claim to have lots of "intuition." It comes from Voodoo Magic spirits. When Voodoo-magic or religious-freak pool players make a good shot, it is because the spirits and gods gave them good "intuition." When they miss, it is because the spirits or gods were not happy with them.
<hr /></blockquote>
Well Dr. Dave, I think I can top you on that one-
Im of Hawaiian culture and when a volcano explodes, its Pele who's mad!
Dont piss her off /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Have a great day!<hr /></blockquote>Many years ago, I actually hiked the volcano on the main island where Pele is reported to reside (I think it was "Mauna Kea", but I don't remember). Maybe that's why I missed that shot last night, even though both my intuition and knowledge told me it should go in.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

You have a great day and weekend too,
Dave

PS: Thank you for doing so much to spread pleasantness on the forum. Sometimes, we need this to balance out the immaturity and negative energy.

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 11:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I seriously apologize if I sound too teacherish (I know it wasn't a criticism <hr /></blockquote>
No,no,no,no,
It absolutely was NOT criticism-I was sincere -I guess believing in something makes me hard-headed (its like, when you find out there is no Santa)but then when someone like you comes along and explains it in "your" way, it makes sense-and I have to admit Im wrong and accept professional knowledge -
I think your amazing /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> another explanation for intuition could be that of the theory of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The earth itself being a conscious organism, (where intuitives can tap into it's knowledge base???)
" he suggested that the Earth in its evolutionary unfolding, was growing a new organ of consciousness, called the noosphere. The noosphere is analogous on a planetary level to the evolution of the cerebral cortex in humans. The noosphere is a "planetary thinking network" -- an interlinked system of consciousness and information, a global net of self-awareness, instantaneous feedback, and planetary communication. At the time of his writing, computers of any merit were the size of a city block, and the Internet was, if anything, an element of speculative science fiction. Yet this evolution is indeed coming to pass, and with a rapidity, that in Gaia time, is but a mere passage of seconds. In these precious moments, the planet is developing her cerebral cortex, and emerging into self-conscious awakening. We are indeed approaching the Omega point that Teilhard de Chardin was so excited about." <hr /></blockquote>Wolfie,

I'm starting to get a little worried about you. Are you sure you haven't been tasting those funny-looking mushrooms in your back yard? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Concerned,
Dave

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 11:43 AM
Ha HA Ha-
Good question,ha ha ha!

[ QUOTE ]
Does he prefer to be called Dr. JoeW, JoeW, or does it matter? <hr /></blockquote>
Ive been calling him Dr.JoeW--
You have a great sense of humor-love it!!!
Carol

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>While the theory is temporarily in dispute, how else can one explain, both Eli and Peyton Manning's ability???<hr /></blockquote>How can there be any dispute with this? The answer is: Archie Manning. Probably the greatest quarterback of all time that played for probably the worst team for all time (the New Orleans saints during the "lean" years). Archie was my childhood hero. Archie is also the father of Peyton and Eli. I suspect neither of them would be superbowl-winning NFL quarterbacks if Archie didn't teach and train them the way he did.

Regards,
Dave

JoeW
02-08-2008, 11:48 AM
OK, I got sucked in for one more comment:

Gaia - 8-Ball what's the difference?

After I graduated I asked a frined in the math department how he handled the Ph.D thing. He said, "Why, its a personal accomplishment, it is no one's business but mine." That changed my thinking on the topic. My students are required to call me Joe. I explain that they become my colleagues when they act like my colleague. In my thinking, having grown up in orphanages and similar places, and with a great distrust of all authority (I am a scientist first) I am simply Joe S**t the rag picker.

I took your comment as it was intended Carol, it is simply my own need to apoligize. Bye for now
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 11:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Many years ago, I actually hiked the volcano on the main island where Pele is reported to reside (I think it was "Mauna Kea", but I don't remember). <hr /></blockquote>

Wow, how exciting-yep Mauna Loa is one on that island-

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe that's why I missed that shot last night, even though both my intuition and knowledge told me it should go in <hr /></blockquote>
Only if you took a rock-then I'd blame it on Pele /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anytime Dr.Dave..and you have a great weekend,too!
Carol

SKennedy
02-08-2008, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Ha HA Ha-
Good question,ha ha ha!

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Does he prefer to be called Dr. JoeW, JoeW, or does it matter? <hr /></blockquote>
Ive been calling him Dr.JoeW--
You have a great sense of humor-love it!!!
Carol
<hr /></blockquote>

This gives us a chance to try and pschoanalyze him before he pegs us all for the nuts we really are! For example, I'm glad that new growth I found growing out of my body is one of them "noospheres" Wolfie told us about! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 11:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
before he pegs us all for the nuts we really are <hr /></blockquote>
Ha ha ha-I think he knew that BEFORE he got here /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Carol

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Many years ago, I actually hiked the volcano on the main island where Pele is reported to reside (I think it was "Mauna Kea", but I don't remember).<hr /></blockquote>Wow, how exciting-yep Mauna Loa is one on that island-
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Maybe that's why I missed that shot last night, even though both my intuition and knowledge told me it should go in<hr /></blockquote>Only if you took a rock-then I'd blame it on Pele /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anytime Dr.Dave..and you have a great weekend,too!
Carol<hr /></blockquote>I did take a rock. I still have it proudly displayed in my mineral collection cabinet. My first major in college was geology, before I got smart and switched to engineering. I hope Pele forgives me for being such an irresponsible geologist. Although, I like that I now have an excuse anytime I miss a shot: "I missed that shot because Pele is mad at me for taking that rock from his mountain." /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Thanks,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-08-2008, 12:00 PM
Are you sure you haven't been tasting those funny-looking mushrooms in your back yard?

I wish that I could grow grass back there,I'd even settle for mushrooms... but so far the weeds are winning

av84fun
02-08-2008, 12:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hi Dr.JoeW,
First and foremost, I like reading your words-
So, then my belief in what intuition is wrong......right? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Thank you for clarifying that and "teaching" me-
I hope you stay, as well, as Dr.Dave!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

No, you're not wrong. Etymology is much like quantum physics. They are both sciences that promulgate theories that cannot possibly be disproven!!

(-:

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Are you sure you haven't been tasting those funny-looking mushrooms in your back yard?<hr /></blockquote>I wish that I could grow grass back there,I'd even settle for mushrooms... but so far the weeds are winning <hr /></blockquote>Oh, so it's "weed" ... not mushrooms. Thank you for correcting me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-08-2008, 12:18 PM
Dr. Dave, I've mentioned the story before...but I was a Cadet engineer on one of the Lykes Bros ships, and we were loading supplies in N.O.
We were watching an LSU game on TV, and one of my ship mates says...." see that kid playing QB...that's my nephew and he's going to win the Heisman...Archie Manning" You picked a pretty good football hero....
You're right...he ended up on the wrong team...a poor offensive line. Jim Plunkett had the same misfortune...but was rescued a few years later by the Raiders...wish Archie had had a real shot....
I also had a job for Gould Batteries, as a service tech, before the MM, and worked out of Metairie...I'm not sure with those 24 hr bars in the French quarter, Id still be alive if I hadn't left the area.....

Cornerman
02-08-2008, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Thanks Dr_Dave, I like the feeling of this place, I'll be here awhile. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Joe<hr /></blockquote>I think your intuition about this place is good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>I think it's his knowledge of this place...

wolfdancer
02-08-2008, 01:59 PM
why would anyone want to be called..."does it matter" ?

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 02:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Thanks Dr_Dave, I like the feeling of this place, I'll be here awhile. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Joe<hr /></blockquote>I think your intuition about this place is good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>I think it's his knowledge of this place... <hr /></blockquote>Actually, I had already put a voodoo spell on him making it impossible for him to resist participation, whether he "knows" or "feels" it or not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,
Dave

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 02:24 PM
Uh-oh Dr.Dave,
[ QUOTE ]
I did take a rock-"I missed that shot because Pele is mad at me for taking that rock from his mountain <hr /></blockquote>

PELE is a " <font color="red"> she </font color>" HER MOUNTAIN!

Here goes,my Moms side:

My grandmother was of-100% Hawaiian Blood!
My great grandfather-William Alapainui -his great grandmother was Susan -Ka-hie-hie-nui-ku-o-mahi-ka-lani II which meant "In Great Splendor Stands the Chief of the Royal Mahi Clan " of King Alapainui of Hawai'i

My great grandmother-Deborah Kahiapo-her great grandmother was Princess Keahi Huna Kekauohohi aka Mo'i Wale aku Mo'i Wale
Isnt that a helluva mouthful,ha ha ha /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So,our family are known as "Alii"'



( <font color="red">(Alii is the hereditary chiefly or noble rank (class, caste) in traditional Hawaiian society. The alii were the highest class, ranking above both kahuna (priests) and makainana (commoners). . The alii class consisted of the high and lesser chiefs of the various realms in the islands. They governed with divine power called mana.Alii are full of mana and can place and remove kapu (curse or taboo) on objects.) </font color>


.

Now that you know my family history........(all seriousness)
has anything ever happened that was weird ,after bringing the rock home,besides missing balls? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
<font color="red">
It is said in legend that if any volcanic rock or black sand is taken from Hawaii Volcanoes National Park (or anywhere in Hawaii) that the person that took it will be cursed by the Hawaiian volcano goddess Pele until it is returned. While purportedly an ancient Hawaiian belief, historians can trace this legend only to the mid-twentieth century, and it is widely believed to have been invented by park rangers to keep visitors from taking rocks. Nevertheless,
The modern legend does have a strong basis in Hawaiian culture, as the earth is considered the mother of humanity. To wantonly take rocks without good reason and proper protocol is looked on by many Hawaiians and people who have adopted Hawaiian culture as equivalent to grave robbing

- the lobby of Kilauea Military Camp (now a vacation area for military personnel) has a cabinet displaying rocks returned by people attempting to atone for the bad luck that has befallen them, and letters describing their predicaments. </font color>

Carol

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 02:25 PM
Ahh,Jack,
Does it matter,ha ha ha
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 02:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I had already put a voodoo spell on him making it impossible for him to resist participation, <hr /></blockquote>
Along with my "mana' ha ha ha!
Carol

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Uh-oh Dr.Dave,
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I did take a rock-"I missed that shot because Pele is mad at me for taking that rock from her mountain <hr /></blockquote>PELE is a " <font color="red"> she </font color>" HER MOUNTAIN!<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the correction. I knew that, but I must have had soccer (and not Hawaiian goddesses) on my mind when I wrote the sentence.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>Here goes,my Moms side:

My grandmother was of-100% Hawaiian Blood!
My great grandfather-William Alapainui -his great grandmother was Susan -Ka-hie-hie-nui-ku-o-mahi-ka-lani II which meant "In Great Splendor Stands the Chief of the Royal Mahi Clan " of King Alapainui of Hawai'i

My great grandmother-Deborah Kahiapo-her great grandmother was Princess Keahi Huna Kekauohohi aka Mo'i Wale aku Mo'i Wale
Isnt that a helluva mouthful,ha ha ha /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So,our family are known as "Alii"'

( <font color="red">(Alii is the hereditary chiefly or noble rank (class, caste) in traditional Hawaiian society. The alii were the highest class, ranking above both kahuna (priests) and makainana (commoners). . The alii class consisted of the high and lesser chiefs of the various realms in the islands. They governed with divine power called mana.Alii are full of mana and can place and remove kapu (curse or taboo) on objects.) </font color><hr /></blockquote>Wow! I'm jealous ... I wish my family history were even half that interesting.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>Now that you know my family history........(all seriousness)
has anything ever happened that was weird ,after bringing the rock home,besides missing balls? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>I have weird stuff happen all of the time. I can't think of specific and interesting examples off the top of my head, but I will think about it over the next couple of days.

I bet every time I see that rock now, I will imagine voices of CarolNYC and her family in my head: "Dave, put the rock back. Pele demands her respect." (over and over again in my head with a spooky voice). I don't mean any disrespect. I hope you don't take it that way. I just haven't thought about that rock in many years, even though I see it pretty much every day. The rock will certainly have more meaning to me now.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr><font color="red"> It is said in legend that if any volcanic rock or black sand is taken from Hawaii Volcanoes National Park (or anywhere in Hawaii) that the person that took it will be cursed by the Hawaiian volcano goddess Pele until it is returned. While purportedly an ancient Hawaiian belief, historians can trace this legend only to the mid-twentieth century, and it is widely believed to have been invented by park rangers to keep visitors from taking rocks. Nevertheless,
The modern legend does have a strong basis in Hawaiian culture, as the earth is considered the mother of humanity. To wantonly take rocks without good reason and proper protocol is looked on by many Hawaiians and people who have adopted Hawaiian culture as equivalent to grave robbing

- the lobby of Kilauea Military Camp (now a vacation area for military personnel) has a cabinet displaying rocks returned by people attempting to atone for the bad luck that has befallen them, and letters describing their predicaments. </font color><hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the info. I will consider writing a letter and mailing back the rock. It is actually quite large (about the size of a large softball). Is the wrath of Pele proportional to the size of the rock? If so, I'm probably in big trouble.

If I send it back, can you guarantee my pool game will get proportionally better? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 03:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Actually, I had already put a voodoo spell on him making it impossible for him to resist participation, <hr /></blockquote>
Along with my "mana' ha ha ha!
Carol <hr /></blockquote>To Dr. JoeW:

Resistance is futile.

Dave

SKennedy
02-08-2008, 03:48 PM
Plunkett and the Raiders.....that was one QB and team that was peaking perfectly at the right time. No doubt about the outcome that year.

wolfdancer
02-08-2008, 03:48 PM
Interesting story, the legend of Pele...
And I wouldn't want to run into her sister in no dark alley..

SKennedy
02-08-2008, 04:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> OK, I got sucked in for one more comment:

"Why, its a personal accomplishment, it is no one's business but mine." That changed my thinking on the topic. My students are required to call me Joe. I explain that they become my colleagues when they act like my colleague. In my thinking, having grown up in orphanages and similar places, and with a great distrust of all authority (I am a scientist first) I am simply Joe S**t the rag picker.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Good for you sir! You have certainly earned my full respect with your response to my question. Unfortunately I know several men with advanced degrees that have had the opposite viewpoint. It's the only way they can try to get any respect...and of course they wonder why they fail miserably at that endeavor? If we ever get to meet, I'll share some stories along these lines with you. Ego's are amazing!
Have a great weekend!

wolfdancer
02-08-2008, 05:06 PM
" you can call me, Al"
web page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4kH15Ny2ho)

SKennedy
02-08-2008, 05:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> " you can call me, Al"
web page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4kH15Ny2ho) <hr /></blockquote>

One of my favorites......by the way, I didn't know or realize you were an old "swabbie" or "squid" like me! When and where? Early 70's for me....Gator Navy (amphibious assault) out of Little Creek (Va.) where I served as a deck ape and performed mess cooking duties as well aboard the USS Plymouth Rock LSD-29 (we called her the Peter Rabbit) for about 1 year...and then at the Philadelphia Naval Hospital as a Corpsman for 2 years (fantastic duty and duty station)....and then good-bye Uncle Sam!

pooltchr
02-08-2008, 05:44 PM
We came down to Little Creek a couple of times to play war games with the navy out in the bay. I've got a couple of pretty funny stories about some events that took place in one of the "Gentlemen's Clubs" outside the main gate! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Most of my time was in New London, CT.
Steve

SKennedy
02-08-2008, 05:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> We came down to Little Creek a couple of times to play war games with the navy out in the bay. I've got a couple of pretty funny stories about some events that took place in one of the "Gentlemen's Clubs" outside the main gate! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Most of my time was in New London, CT.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Was it a place called "Vesuvius?" I spent a lot of time there watching the ladies, playing pool, partaking of beverages, and avoiding death! It was a pretty rough place. Rough enough that I can remember the name of the place. Between there and the gate was a McDonalds. On base we had the Club El Croc-adilla. I spent time there as well. Lots of married women with husbands out at sea looking for a little nocturnal company.....made one kind of sad and unsympathetic to their plight when you get there sober, but much more sympathetic to their needs when inebriated near closing time. What can I say....men really are pigs, especially when you are 18 and think you rule the world!

In CT? Sub duty?

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 06:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Wow! I'm jealous <hr /></blockquote>
Dont be-Im cracking up,lmao-its absolutely worthless in NYC,ha ha ha!

[ QUOTE ]
I bet every time I see that rock now, I will imagine voices of CarolNYC and her family in my head: "Dave, put the rock back. Pele demands her respect." (over and over again in my head with a spooky voice).
<hr /></blockquote>
Ha Ha-Im crying,ha ha-no,every time you look at the rock you'll hear the "twilight zone" tune,ha ha-or miss a shot,BLAME THE ROCK!

Your killing me with laughter,seriously though, if things have been going wrong,appliances blowing up,electrical things not working,etc...my "intuition" says ...........SEND THE ROCK BACK! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Have a great weekend!
Carol

eg8r
02-08-2008, 07:17 PM
Carol, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

eg8r

wolfdancer
02-09-2008, 01:04 PM
In CT? Sub duty?
No, Steve was in the CG...we like to kid and call them bathtub sailors, but in their tour of duty they get to save lives, at times risking their own life, and see more "action" then the avg Navy sailor.
I was also stationed in New London...a sewer pipe sailor....
I've never been colder in my life then when I stood deck watch in the middle of Dec on the Thames. But in Jan...we always headed for the Caribbean and operation "Springboard"
They had an important "eminent domain" issue in New London now,before the Supreme court (2005)....Kelo V City of New London, that greatly overextended the intentions, and limitations of the fifth amendment. (even the right might agree with that)
I was long gone by the way before you joined the USN.

wolfdancer
02-09-2008, 01:09 PM
On the other hand...the rock could be bringing him good fortune...a tenured Professor, with many interests besides pool, living in a great locale....
"Don't knock the rock" !!!

RedH
02-09-2008, 02:58 PM
Leave the redheads alone! We have a, ahem, not-so-glowing reputation as it is. Just because we'll hunt you down, mug you, and steal your socks after being insulted doesn't mean we're all bad people. Just a little tired of being picked on. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

JoeW
02-09-2008, 03:12 PM
My first wife, who died in 1992, and I were married in 1966. At the time people would do a double take when she walked down the street. She looked that much like Shar (as in Shar Bono - the singer). Shortly after we were married I learned that she was really a strawberry blond. Man, those Scots women can pull the wool over your eyes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Oh - a strawbeery blond is a redhead with a lot of blond hair in my thinking.

SKennedy
02-10-2008, 09:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> In CT? Sub duty?
No, Steve was in the CG...we like to kid and call them bathtub sailors, but in their tour of duty they get to save lives, at times risking their own life, and see more "action" then the avg Navy sailor.
I was also stationed in New London...a sewer pipe sailor....
I've never been colder in my life then when I stood deck watch in the middle of Dec on the Thames. But in Jan...we always headed for the Caribbean and operation "Springboard"
They had an important "eminent domain" issue in New London now,before the Supreme court (2005)....Kelo V City of New London, that greatly overextended the intentions, and limitations of the fifth amendment. (even the right might agree with that)
I was long gone by the way before you joined the USN. <hr /></blockquote>
I too have much respect for CG. While at Corpsman school in Great Lakes, we had a guy who had been in the CG for about 8 years transferring over to Navy as a Corpsman. He was older, married and had kids, who did not live nearby and he stood all my watches for me so I could date my girlfriend. I'm still married to the same girl! His name was Mosher and that's all I can remember. Nice guy and I sure wish I could say hello to him again one day.

wolfdancer
02-11-2008, 12:11 AM
Nice story!!!
I went to EM school at the Lakes

Cornerman
02-11-2008, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedH:</font><hr> Leave the redheads alone! <hr /></blockquote>I love redheads. And ponytails. And women in general.

Fred &lt;~~~ completely lost in this thread

CarolNYC
02-11-2008, 09:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
No, you're not wrong. Etymology is much like quantum physics. They are both sciences that promulgate theories that cannot possibly be disproven!!
<hr /></blockquote>

I hear you,Jim /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CarolNYC
02-11-2008, 09:21 AM
Hey Jack.

[ QUOTE ]
the rock could be bringing him good fortune <hr /></blockquote>

Nope!

He can keep the rock-I speak to my family in Hawaii (Maui)_frequently and mentioned Dave-
The "proper protocol" was done in his name-ha ha ha-(it was explained he was a geologist at the time and wasnt "stealing"-it was for scientific reasons to help the earth)
Thats our belief /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Oh, I noticed the navy guys here-my brother was a Marine and my Dad Chief Warrant officer /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Carol

SKennedy
02-11-2008, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>Oh, I noticed the navy guys here-my brother was a Marine and my Dad Chief Warrant officer /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Carol <hr /></blockquote>

One of my favorite officers was a Warrant Officer aboard my ship by the name of Robinson....nice guy who I always suspected ran some intereference for me and kept me out of trouble on one occasion. A couple years back I managed to find contact info on him and sent him an e-mail. He remembered me and he remembered helping me and confirmed his help. So, after 30+ years I got to thank him.
My big sin? Being on deck out of uniform....I had on a t-shirt. The Master at Arms was mad at me and 2 other guys and wrote us up for being out of uniform, but he was mad because we were smoking pot....he knew it but couldn't prove it or do anything about it.....
Thanks Mr. Robinson! He kept a young kid out of trouble.

CarolNYC
02-11-2008, 11:01 AM
Thats a nice story!
Something about a man in a uniform,hmmmm,hmmmm /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Just recently, in the past 5 years, I met a guy who knew my Dad-(my Dad was killed when I was young-along with naval reserves ,he was FDNY)he said he was revered by his men (most Warrant Officers were)-cause to get to the rank, he started at the bottom,or some thing like that-I always thought when you join the military,you always start at the bottom
Thanks for sharing the stories!
Carol

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>He can keep the rock-I speak to my family in Hawaii (Maui)_frequently and mentioned Dave-
The "proper protocol" was done in his name-ha ha ha-(it was explained he was a geologist at the time and wasnt "stealing"-it was for scientific reasons to help the earth)
Thats our belief /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>Thank you so much for this. I feel a new "inner peace," and I am sure my pool game will be better from this day forward. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Would it be considered bad form to break off a piece of the rock and carry it with me in my pocket when I play pool? Please let me know what your family advises? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks,
Dave

SKennedy
02-11-2008, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Thats a nice story!
Something about a man in a uniform,hmmmm,hmmmm /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Just recently, in the past 5 years, I met a guy who knew my Dad-(my Dad was killed when I was young-along with naval reserves ,he was FDNY)he said he was revered by his men (most Warrant Officers were)-cause to get to the rank, he started at the bottom,or some thing like that-I always thought when you join the military,you always start at the bottom
Thanks for sharing the stories!
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

A Warrant Officer (WO) starts out as an enlisted man (non-commissioned officer - NCO), not as an officer. So, to become a WO, at least in the old days and I suspect it's true today, you had to really have something. Most WO's were well-respected by both enlisted men and officers. I don't think WO's are commissioned, but are officers because their abilities "warrant" the position. Now....FDNY? That's much tougher duty!

BigRigTom
02-11-2008, 05:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Thats a nice story!
Something about a man in a uniform,hmmmm,hmmmm /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Just recently, in the past 5 years, I met a guy who knew my Dad-(my Dad was killed when I was young-along with naval reserves ,he was FDNY)he said he was revered by his men (most Warrant Officers were)-cause to get to the rank, he started at the bottom,or some thing like that-I always thought when you join the military,you always start at the bottom
Thanks for sharing the stories!
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

A Warrant Officer (WO) starts out as an enlisted man (non-commissioned officer - NCO), not as an officer. So, to become a WO, at least in the old days and I suspect it's true today, you had to really have something. Most WO's were well-respected by both enlisted men and officers. I don't think WO's are commissioned, but are officers because their abilities "warrant" the position. Now....FDNY? That's much tougher duty!
<hr /></blockquote>
Some one correct me if I am wrong because I was in the Army and a lowly (drafted) radar operator, I was still only a specialist 4th class when I was discharged.
We had Warrant Officers and they were like our mentors, advisors, teachers, and experts in the field.
They held the same ranks like WO-I, WO-2. WO-3, WO-4, WO-5 but did not have command authority over the troops. We did what they told us out of respect for their knowledge and experience more that out of their rank authority. The NCO's and regular Commissioned Officers were the one's who were supposed to make any command decisions. NCO's usually knew what they were doing from experience, some more that others. The Commissioned Officer's were often green and got their rank from their schooling upto and including 1st lt. but once they got to Captain most of the one's I had occassion to interact with were pretty sharp in both knowledge and experience...at least from where I was on the food chain.

CarolNYC
02-11-2008, 06:36 PM
Hi Tom,
Wow, alot of military guys on here /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I do not recall a W0 ,but I remember something about E-9-
it was like the highest he could get or something like that,maybe payrate /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I remmeber he flew jets and also, he took us on a submarine once-I was very young /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Have a great night!
Carol

pooltchr
02-11-2008, 06:56 PM
E-9 is the highest rank for an enlisted man. However, they can attend OCS (Officer Candidate School) and become a Warrent Officer (O-1 up to O-4) The other officers go to a military academy like West Point or Annapolis for 4 years of paid college. In exchange, the agree to serve as officers in the service for, I think, at least 8 years.
Roger Staubach went to the Naval Academy, then did his service time before becoming QB for Dallas.

Back on topic, Warrent Officers usually have the respect of the enlisted men for a couple of reasons...they know that a WO has worked their way up to their position...and most WO's respect the people who actually do the job that they themselves once did.
Steve

CarolNYC
02-11-2008, 07:16 PM
Hey Steve,
It bothered me so I looked it up-heres what I found:

In the United States military, a Warrant Officer is ranked as an officer above the senior-most enlisted ranks, as well as officer cadets and candidates, but below the grade of O-1 (NATO: OF-1). Warrant officers are highly skilled, single-track specialty officers, and while the ranks are authorized by Congress, each branch of the Uniformed Services selects, manages, and utilizes warrant officers in slightly different ways. Upon the initial appointment to Warrant Officer 1, a warrant is given by the secretary of the service, and upon promotion to Chief Warrant Officer 2, they are commissioned by the President of the United States, taking the same oath and receiving the same commission and charges as commissioned officers, thus deriving their authority from the same source.

Warrant officers can and do command detachments, units, activities, vessels, aircraft, and armored vehicles as well as lead, coach, train, and counsel subordinates. However, the Warrant Officer's primary task as a leader is to serve as a technical expert, providing valuable skills, guidance, and expertise to commanders and organizations in their particular field

WO means Warrant Officer,DUH?-his medal,patch or whatever you call it is 2 squares- blue -

[ QUOTE ]
Officer Candidate School) <hr /></blockquote>

I remember that,Steve /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
and most WO's respect the people who actually do the job that they themselves once did.
<hr /></blockquote>
Yeah, there was something about them being "closer" to the men then regular officers!
Thanks for the memories! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol

SKennedy
02-12-2008, 03:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Thats a nice story!
Something about a man in a uniform,hmmmm,hmmmm /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Just recently, in the past 5 years, I met a guy who knew my Dad-(my Dad was killed when I was young-along with naval reserves ,he was FDNY)he said he was revered by his men (most Warrant Officers were)-cause to get to the rank, he started at the bottom,or some thing like that-I always thought when you join the military,you always start at the bottom
Thanks for sharing the stories!
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

A Warrant Officer (WO) starts out as an enlisted man (non-commissioned officer - NCO), not as an officer. So, to become a WO, at least in the old days and I suspect it's true today, you had to really have something. Most WO's were well-respected by both enlisted men and officers. I don't think WO's are commissioned, but are officers because their abilities "warrant" the position. Now....FDNY? That's much tougher duty!
<hr /></blockquote>
Some one correct me if I am wrong because I was in the Army and a lowly (drafted) radar operator, I was still only a specialist 4th class when I was discharged.
We had Warrant Officers and they were like our mentors, advisors, teachers, and experts in the field.
They held the same ranks like WO-I, WO-2. WO-3, WO-4, WO-5 but did not have command authority over the troops. We did what they told us out of respect for their knowledge and experience more that out of their rank authority. The NCO's and regular Commissioned Officers were the one's who were supposed to make any command decisions. NCO's usually knew what they were doing from experience, some more that others. The Commissioned Officer's were often green and got their rank from their schooling upto and including 1st lt. but once they got to Captain most of the one's I had occassion to interact with were pretty sharp in both knowledge and experience...at least from where I was on the food chain. <hr /></blockquote>

Navy may be different, but in this case, the WO I knew was in charge of "deck force." When he gave orders all of us enlisted obeyed...and not just out of respect. But again, Navy is different. I was an E-3 for awhile and was in charge of E-4 and E-5's since I was the "Senior Corpsman" on an amputee ward. The position came from ability and not just rank and time. The army patients use to fuss about it until it was explained to them. As for your Captain....a Captain in the army is an O-3, while a Captain in the Navy is an O-6, which would be equivalent to your full Colonel. WO's were made from enlisted men who achieved some signficant level of rank....not sure what the requirements were back then, but I would assume at least an E-6 or above...and they were all older and had served considerable time.....or maybe drafted as older guys with signficant civilian credentials? Don't know. I just know this WO was in charge of the entire department....granted we're not talking rocket science here (chipping, painting, sweeping, mopping, removing ice and salt, mooring detail, sea &amp; anchor detail, mess cooking duties, supply duties, trash detail.....and whatever else needed to be done that was beneath all others) but it was the largest department aboard ship....the "deck apes." And the WO in this case reported directly to the operations officer, or maybe the executive officer (XO)?, who was 2nd in command aboard our ship. Not sure when you were in, but this was during the early 70's.
Maybe someone else reading these knows more about WO's and can shed some light on the subject?

SKennedy
02-12-2008, 03:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> E-9 is the highest rank for an enlisted man. However, they can attend OCS (Officer Candidate School) and become a Warrent Officer (O-1 up to O-4) The other officers go to a military academy like West Point or Annapolis for 4 years of paid college. In exchange, the agree to serve as officers in the service for, I think, at least 8 years.
Roger Staubach went to the Naval Academy, then did his service time before becoming QB for Dallas.

Back on topic, Warrent Officers usually have the respect of the enlisted men for a couple of reasons...they know that a WO has worked their way up to their position...and most WO's respect the people who actually do the job that they themselves once did.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Are you sure Steve? I thought many that go thru OCS became regular officers. The difference is whether or not they are considered "commissioned" officers or not? Not just West Point turns out commissioned officers.....many others do as well...Texas A&amp;M as an example...turns out regular officers.

SKennedy
02-12-2008, 03:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> E-9 is the highest rank for an enlisted man. However, they can attend OCS (Officer Candidate School) and become a Warrent Officer (O-1 up to O-4) The other officers go to a military academy like West Point or Annapolis for 4 years of paid college. In exchange, the agree to serve as officers in the service for, I think, at least 8 years.
Roger Staubach went to the Naval Academy, then did his service time before becoming QB for Dallas.

Back on topic, Warrent Officers usually have the respect of the enlisted men for a couple of reasons...they know that a WO has worked their way up to their position...and most WO's respect the people who actually do the job that they themselves once did.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Are you sure Steve? I thought many that go thru OCS became regular officers. The difference is whether or not they are considered "commissioned" officers or not? Not just West Point turns out commissioned officers.....many others do as well...Texas A&amp;M as an example...turns out regular officers. <hr /></blockquote>

I was behind on the reading and now note that Carol shed some more light on the subject. Thanks Carol.

DeadCrab
02-12-2008, 04:08 PM
Warrant Officers in the Army are persons who have a specific skill that is valuable to the Army.

Military Occupational Specialties that are often WO's include helicopter pilots and physician's assistants.

As mentioned, they are expected to practice their specialty, and do not have the command and administrative responsibilities that commissioned officers have. On the pay scale, they make more than NCO's, but less than company grade officers (O1-O3) with similar time in service.

wolfdancer
02-12-2008, 05:08 PM
I have a good book that addresses the subject:
"Playing in the Zone"...Andrew Cooper
Instinct and intuition are often interchanged....
"Athlets describe playing by instinct, but instinct refers to behaviors genetically programmed, while athletic feats are a highly complex integration of sophisticated skills, perceptions, and knowledge.
Though an accomplished performance is anything but instinctual...there is something there that makes it feel that way. That something is immersion.What feels like instinctual is the absence of fear, doubt, worry and unnecessary self-deliberation.
Instinct is a regression to the level of functioning prior to the formation of self consciousness ...what we see in sports is a highly refined mode of intuitive functioning that transcends self-consciousness.
An old Italian proverb: "learn how to do it, then forget you know how"

SKennedy
02-12-2008, 05:09 PM
Makes sense to me. Thanks.

CarolNYC
02-12-2008, 05:20 PM
Hiya Steve,
Your so welcome /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Im enjoying what you are all writing-very cool!
Carol