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Heretic
01-30-2008, 12:39 PM
While I do like seeing the innovations in cue sticks, I have to wonder when enough is enough. I know half a dozen newer players who read about the high tech shafts, layered tips, squirt, and deflection, and have come to believe that they can buy a better game. One friend of mine traded a couple of my old sticks from me. One of them he has now had the tip changed on three times in two months, and he is still not happy. The other one is a low squirt cue, and it is suddenly not good enough, because another player we know recommends something else, and ran the table the last time they played.
I see all these advertisements for these new innovations, but I have yet to see a single disclaimer stating that if you cannot shoot consistently with a bar stick, you will not do it with a low squirt cue either.
I really have to wonder when the emphasis shifted from the player, and his/her skill level, to what kind of equipment is being used

wolfdancer
01-30-2008, 12:49 PM
we're all trying to get an edge....but if you think we are trying to buy a pool game..it runs way behind golf technology ....I've been buying a golf game now for 40 yrs....the latest is my square head driver....AND it works. or at least i think it does...just like my Everest tip....gave me some extra action on the CB

bradb
01-30-2008, 03:00 PM
A good quality cue will have a harder shaft (multiple layers of wood) and will deflect less. For lower level players this won't matter but for shots requiring power spin over a distance it will help in control. Also a good tip like a Moori will help anybody as it contacts the ball better.

Of course its all a matter of the efficiency of the player. We've all seen hustler's beat people using banged up rack cues. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Heretic
01-31-2008, 01:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> A good quality cue will have a harder shaft (multiple layers of wood) and will deflect less. For lower level players this won't matter but for shots requiring power spin over a distance it will help in control. Also a good tip like a Moori will help anybody as it contacts the ball better. <hr /></blockquote>

I must be a lower level player then, because I don't think I need a laminated shaft or tip. I own a couple shafts like that but prefer my old growth maple shafts

pooltchr
01-31-2008, 05:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> A good quality cue will have a harder shaft (multiple layers of wood) and will deflect less. <font color="red"> I thnik this is much more a matter of preference than a statement of fact. </font color> For lower level players this won't matter but for shots requiring power spin over a distance it will help in control. Also a good tip like a Moori will help anybody as it contacts the ball better. <font color="red"> What exactly do you mean it contacts the ball better? Better than what? In what way is the contact "better"? </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> Steve </font color>

DeadCrab
01-31-2008, 08:19 AM
I admit to having limited experience, but the principal advantage that I have seen from a layered (Moori) tip is that it feels exactly the same to me now as it did the first time I hit with it 9 months ago. So, I would say the major advantages are consistency and durability, rather than quality of feel per se.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> A good quality cue will have a harder shaft (multiple layers of wood) and will deflect less. <font color="red"> I thnik this is much more a matter of preference than a statement of fact. </font color> For lower level players this won't matter but for shots requiring power spin over a distance it will help in control. Also a good tip like a Moori will help anybody as it contacts the ball better. <font color="red"> What exactly do you mean it contacts the ball better? Better than what? In what way is the contact "better"? </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> Steve </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

bradb
01-31-2008, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr> I admit to having limited experience, but the principal advantage that I have seen from a layered (Moori) tip is that it feels exactly the same to me now as it did the first time I hit with it 9 months ago. So, I would say the major advantages are consistency and durability, rather than quality of feel per se.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> A good quality cue will have a harder shaft (multiple layers of wood) and will deflect less. <font color="red"> I thnik this is much more a matter of preference than a statement of fact. </font color> For lower level players this won't matter but for shots requiring power spin over a distance it will help in control. Also a good tip like a Moori will help anybody as it contacts the ball better. <font color="red"> What exactly do you mean it contacts the ball better? Better than what? In what way is the contact "better"? </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> Steve </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>


Good point Crab... although for me it is also the quality of the feel for the shot.

A Moori holds its shape very well. I find that many tips get harder with use and flatten so you have to keep shaping them. so thats what I meant by contacting the ball better... I know it won't change on me, the feel will always be the same.

A Preditor cue for instance has sandwiched layers of wood in the shaft instead of just one piece. This helps in keeping the shaft rigid when powering through. I noticed this when I switched over from my little $150 Dufferin.

Of course there are other high quality cues and tips on the market.

I play better with my up grades, so for me it is a statement of fact!.... But hell I don't know, maybe there are people out there who play better with a broom handle.

-brad

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Heretic
01-31-2008, 08:45 PM
I don't know what you have, but generally a predator shaft is not nearly as rigid as a dufferin
The give is what makes it low squirt

bradb
01-31-2008, 10:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Heretic:</font><hr> I don't know what you have, but generally a predator shaft is not nearly as rigid as a dufferin
The give is what makes it low squirt <hr /></blockquote>

My Dufferin costs $150. The predator cost $850.

Take a look at thier site: http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_shafts.html

It shows how the shaft is reinforced. Mine is the Z shaft.

I'm just an average talent pool player like most on this forum. (I'll never be near the level of a pro or even a top amatuer.) I played with my little Dufferin for years and it served me well, but when I tried the better cue I learned how it helped my game.
-brad

Heretic
02-01-2008, 12:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Heretic:</font><hr> I don't know what you have, but generally a predator shaft is not nearly as rigid as a dufferin
The give is what makes it low squirt <hr /></blockquote>

My Dufferin costs $150. The predator cost $850.

Take a look at thier site: http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_shafts.html

It shows how the shaft is reinforced. Mine is the Z shaft.

I'm just an average talent pool player like most on this forum. (I'll never be near the level of a pro or even a top amatuer.) I played with my little Dufferin for years and it served me well, but when I tried the better cue I learned how it helped my game.
-brad <hr /></blockquote>

I think you may have things reversed. A shaft that flexes/deflects more causes less cue ball squirt. While there is often confusion in the terms, Predator has been trying for flexibility, not a firm hard hit. I am sure there are a number of articles written on this site that can explain this much better than I can.

Scott Lee
02-01-2008, 01:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Heretic:</font><hr> I know half a dozen newer players who read about the high tech shafts, layered tips, squirt, and deflection, and have come to believe that they can buy a better game.

I really have to wonder when the emphasis shifted from the player, and his/her skill level, to what kind of equipment is being used <hr /></blockquote>

I hate to sound like a broken record...but the only "better game" you can buy is to get some quality instruction. At that point, SOME technology innovations may make a "slight" difference in your ability to "see" or "feel" a difference in how well you play. Like pooltchr said..."better than what?"

Scott Lee

bradb
02-01-2008, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Heretic:</font><hr>
I think you may have things reversed. A shaft that flexes/deflects more causes less cue ball squirt. While there is often confusion in the terms, Predator has been trying for flexibility, not a firm hard hit. I am sure there are a number of articles written on this site that can explain this much better than I can. <hr /></blockquote>

I cut this from the predator discussion site:

Many pros use radial laminate shafts like a Predator or Tiger. These are actually several different pieces of wood laminated together in various ways to provide a STIFFER and more consistent hit - kind of like having a heavier cue or a thicker shaft. These laminates are mostly in the 12 3/4 to 13mm range which is the size I play with and recommend to serious players. They're solid hitting and reduce deflection (squirt and swerve) on off center hits.

Notice the word "Stiffer"

My comments were on up grading to a better cue to reduce deflection.

-brad

Heretic
02-01-2008, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Heretic:</font><hr>
I think you may have things reversed. A shaft that flexes/deflects more causes less cue ball squirt. While there is often confusion in the terms, Predator has been trying for flexibility, not a firm hard hit. I am sure there are a number of articles written on this site that can explain this much better than I can. <hr /></blockquote>

I cut this from the predator discussion site:

Many pros use radial laminate shafts like a Predator or Tiger. These are actually several different pieces of wood laminated together in various ways to provide a STIFFER and more consistent hit - kind of like having a heavier cue or a thicker shaft. These laminates are mostly in the 12 3/4 to 13mm range which is the size I play with and recommend to serious players. They're solid hitting and reduce deflection (squirt and swerve) on off center hits.

Notice the word "Stiffer"

My comments were on up grading to a better cue to reduce deflection.

-brad <hr /></blockquote>

This is being taken out of perspective. Take the Z shaft for example. It is so narrow at the tip, it would be like shooting with a rope without the laminations. In Europe, where they use the narrower tips, the shafts are most often made of hardwoods, like ash. The laminations do add stiffness, but this allows for a longer pro taper (0n the 314 shaft)and a narrower tip. The laminations also are supposed to make a radial consistancy to the flex of the shaft. A standard shaft will have a "spine" do to inconsistant grain.

The reason your stick has better play than a bar stick is because of this flex......

I would have no idea where to find them, but Bob Meucci did a lot of research into deflection, and put it in the Meucci news letters about 10 years ago. Weather you like his company's sticks or not, his findings were valid

bradb
02-01-2008, 01:17 PM
My comment on "rigid" holds the same meaning as "stiffer." The shaft is the same thickness as my older cue. Its pivot point is different, but its very strong and will not bend over all like my older cue, the flex is in the front. My friend has a Sneaky pete and you can really tell the difference by examining the wood construction. Ash cues are mostly snooker cues. I don't like Ash cues, they can warp very easily if you don't take proper care. The Z cue will be strong and straight just about forever.

That is my point. I think the predator site explains this very well.

Heretic
02-02-2008, 03:29 PM
I really don't want to argue with you, so instead I will suggest that you do a little more research. I would also suggest that stop using the predator website for your information. Remember their main purpose is to sell you products, not to educate you. If every advertisement posted on the net was true, no one would use a predator, because meucci has a video of them attaching a bulls eye shaft to a common broomstick, and out shooting a predator by a large margin, using the robot tester.
There are numerous posts on here about how a low squirt stick works, and even more if you search the net. If you really think stiffness is the key, I am sure you will be even more pleased with a composite bar stick.....

bradb
02-02-2008, 04:10 PM
You seem to have a predjutice against the Predator cue. A lot of people use them including a lot of pros. Yes there are other good, even better cues but I stand by this product. I've read all the hoopla and claims by all, and they all have a cue to sell just like the Predator. And I have read many discussion sites and there is wide opinion. Yours is not the only one.

ceebee
02-02-2008, 07:15 PM
well Scott Lee, you told them again, but they did not hear. They couldn't stay on the subject being discussed either. It's too bad.

Just about every Pro Golfer has a coach of some kind, but Pool Players don't need 'em, so they think. Professional Golf is a great model of success, which is to say this "a good map is at hand for the reading". Golf Players are nurtured along, from the amateur ranks, right through the Professional ranks, until such time they quit playing. Most of them make lots of money &amp; live very nice lives.

That success story is played out every day, on the Golf courses of the world.

How many success stories are played out or lived in Professional Pool? Very few I am sad to say.

Good Luck to everyone...

Heretic
02-02-2008, 08:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> You seem to have a predjutice against the Predator cue. A lot of people use them including a lot of pros. Yes there are other good, even better cues but I stand by this product. I've read all the hoopla and claims by all, and they all have a cue to sell just like the Predator. And I have read many discussion sites and there is wide opinion. Yours is not the only one. <hr /></blockquote>

Not only am I not prejudice against them, but I own a couple of their shafts, and have been messing around with them for about 7 years. I bought my first predator shaft for a McDermott in 2000
The original reason I started this thread was because I saw too many people who didn't really understand what they were doing, and tried to buy a game. They did not have the experience to understand the technology, but thought it could replace years of practice.....I am glad to say that you did more to make my point than anything I could have said......I also found a great deal of irony in CeeBee speaking of professional instruction, but offering to "SELL" a better break in his signature.....

ceebee
02-02-2008, 11:33 PM
I don't sell a better Break Shot, that is a cute little phrase, which depicts the goal of my business. There is no magic in a BreakRAK.

However, I do sell a great piece of equipment for a Player to develop one. The BreakRAK does that around the world.

If someone could sell you the ability to be "king of the road", no one could afford the price. The price would go up day after day.

Today, you can buy videos &amp; books to learn about the "Game of Pool". Yesteryear, you had to play for 20 years to know something. There were no instructors, you had to "pay your dues", just to become a "6 speed" &amp; without any talent, that was your "high gear". Today's instructors can get you going rather quickly &amp; can "dial you back in", even quicker. They can also introduce you to some "high tech equipment" that may or may not help you.

Technology is great, it has helped each &amp; everyone of us to live a better life &amp; has even assisted some of us to play better Pool. A good cue stick can actually help a player to enjoy the game a little more. Terms like Squirt, Swerve, Throw &amp; Stroke have to be learned, they are not for sale.

Good Luck...

bradb
02-03-2008, 10:27 AM
I think what we had here is mis communication. My point all along was upgrading to better equiptment can and does improve a players game. But its a matter of getting the right tools for yourself and knowing when you have reached that goal. I play just as well with my sneaky Pete as the Z. I got the Sneaky from a friend used. I now plan to sell the Z.

Yes I agree you cannot buy a better game past a certain point.

Scott Lee
02-03-2008, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Yes I agree you cannot buy a better game past a certain point. <hr /></blockquote>

Tools are only as good as the knowledge of how to best utilize them. Quality instruction should be the precursor to spending hundreds of dollars or more on "technological advances" in cue construction...but again, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink! That's what CeeBee was trying to say! With some instructional knowledge and some experience, there are some tools that may help elevate your pool game...and the BreakRak is one of these. Without the knowledge, the tools are of limited applicable value.

Scott Lee