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av84fun
02-04-2008, 05:37 PM
I am lucky enough to be able to play with some really top pros and from time to time, I get advice that REALLY strikes a nerve. This is some really helpful advice I recently got.

ISSUES

1. Playing shape on the "correct side" of the next OB is, of course, critical but often there is a LIMITED portion of the "shape zone" that renders the next shot to be very easy instead of being relatively more difficult.

For example, if you have an OB a ball off the left long rail and need to get shape on an OB lying near the RIGHT long rail, it's not enough to simply get on the correct side of the first OB. You need to be on the correct side AND have enough angle so that you don't have to pound the shot to get the CB to cross to the other side of the table.

2. Lapses in concentration plague us all and must be constantly fought against.

Here is a technique that address both the above issues.

First, make EVERY shot a "precision shot." Even if you have a SIMPLE shot and only need to move the CB a couple of inches on the tanget line to get perfect on the next shot...then attempt to move the CB...EXACTLY one ball width.

Maybe a ball and a half or a half ball would be fine but DON'T ACCEPT that kind of thinking...try for EXACTLY one ball width. That forces you to CONCENTRATE and will tend to prevent lapses of concentration which result in the CB going 3 ball widths and possibly making a hard position route out of an easy one.

Ditto with draw and follow. If you need to back up or roll forward roughly one diamond...try to move the CB EXACTLY one diamond not ROUGHLY one diamond.

Basically, challenge yourself to make EVERY shot a precision shot to avoid ending up in a fog during which your concentration lapses and you end up dogging the shot or the shape.

Next, don't settle for playing for merely "correct side" shape or even correct "zone shape." Frequently, there is a PARTICULAR SPOT in a correct "zone" that will be better than any other spot.

Fine, play for the wide portion of the position zone wedge but play for an EXACT spot in the wide portion of the wedge.

In that regard, I am a fairly sporty shot maker so I have been intentionally transitioning to somewhat larger angles (within reason) because the thinner the cut, the more energy is preserved in the CB and it will roll farther so I can shoot more softly, in general, than would be possible if I played for thicker cuts.

So my ideal spot in the zone would be one that creates a thinner than "average" cut than would be permitted by falling on other spots or lines within the zone.

We have all seen pros use their cue tips to physically point at EXACT spots but the message I got is that most of them MENTALLY choose such exact spots even if they don't physically point at them.

Working on the above approach has REALLY helped my game vs. just visualizing the appropriate zone and being happy to fall anywhere within it.

To begin to imbed this approach, just roll out 3 balls...take BIH and play for whatever would be the EXACT best spot to fall on the 2nd OB in relation to playing off that one for the 3rd.

I don't recommend using a piece of paper (etc.) as a target because that provides a false target...one that will never exist in actual play. So just visualize the exact spot or the exactly best LINE bisecting the position zone that you want to fall on and play for it.

Then increase to 4, 5 and 6 balls....all the while, even though some of those shots and positions may be SIMPLE, play for an EXACT spot since doing so will give you something to juice up your concentration and also make your life easier by ending up, not only with good shape but with the BEST shape.

Just an approach that I've found useful so I thought I'd pass it on.

Regards,
Jim

Ralph_Kramden
02-04-2008, 06:32 PM
Finding the "EXACT spot" in the position zone wedge would be very difficult to do on every shot. Not that it's not possible to do sometimes... but VERY difficult everytime.

I think playing for a 3rd ball position zone would be a much more productive way to practice. Rack 9 balls. Place 6 striped balls and also the 1,2 and 3 ball randomly in a diamond shape.

After the break spot any balls that pocket so all 9 balls are on the table. Start out with BIH and pocket any striped ball. Get shape on any other striped ball that will leave you position on the 1 ball.

You must pocket any 2 striped balls and then the 1 ball. Then you must pocket any 2 of the other striped balls and then the 2 ball. Finally you must pocket the last 2 striped balls and then the 3 ball.

Practicing this way would make you play for position on every ball and also make you think 3 balls ahead. It sounds like it wouldn't be very hard to make all nine balls this way but it isn't that easy unless you concentrate on each shot.

You can keep track of how well you get shape if you write down how many times you make the 1,2 and 3 for every nine balls racked.

CarolNYC
02-04-2008, 07:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
play for the wide portion of the position zone wedge but play for an EXACT spot in the wide portion of the wedge <hr /></blockquote>
This is difficult-I agree its important to get on the correct side and make every shot important,even the simple ones,but when you have a WEDGE of area that you can place the cueball, trying to get it EXACTLY in one spot, is too much thinking-
I've seen people putting dollar bills on the table and trying to get the cueball to land on it-I dont think its necessary /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

Sid_Vicious
02-04-2008, 07:36 PM
Actually the exact spot target was for consistent concentration. My playing mostly 9-ball, I don't use this method, mainly because I was mentored away from attempting to play perfect, but I do understand the mentality...third ball shape in 9B makes more sense, UNTIL it costs you in taking a shot for granted and goofing up an easy out. I'm gonna revert back to the perfect position theory after this thread. Hell, my game's so far down rightr now, it's worth a try...sid

av84fun
02-05-2008, 12:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> Finding the "EXACT spot" in the position zone wedge would be very difficult to do on every shot. Not that it's not possible to do sometimes... but VERY difficult everytime.<hr /></blockquote>

RIGHT...that is what separates champions from the rest of us.

[ QUOTE ]
After the break spot any balls that pocket so all 9 balls are on the table. Start out with BIH and pocket any striped ball. Get shape on any other striped ball that will leave you position on the 1 ball.

You must pocket any 2 striped balls and then the 1 ball. Then you must pocket any 2 of the other striped balls and then the 2 ball. Finally you must pocket the last 2 striped balls and then the 3 ball.

Practicing this way would make you play for position on every ball and also make you think 3 balls ahead. It sounds like it wouldn't be very hard to make all nine balls this way but it isn't that easy unless you concentrate on each shot.

You can keep track of how well you get shape if you write down how many times you make the 1,2 and 3 for every nine balls racked. <hr /></blockquote>

That's an interesting drill and practicing for AT LEAST 3 balls ahead is a baseline concept for students to work on.

Top players, however, will visualize the entire route before bending over the first shot and only "adjust" when required by missing shape or getting unlucky kisses etc.

Of course, attempting to fall on the perfect spot (or line) in the shape zone cannot work all the time but the idea is to be aware that there IS a perfect place and attempt to land there as opposed to any other place in the zone.

If you miss the perfect place but end up in the correct zone that's not the end of the world but the next shot is rendered that much more difficult as I pointed out in my original post.

Another example is this. Say there is an OB 4-5 inches in front of the upper right corner pocket and the next OB is near the middle of the short rail between the opposit, lower left and right corner pocket.

If you fall on the 1st OB with a fairly small angle...say a 15 degree cut to the right, that would be within the shape zone but you have to shoot fairly hard and use high right to spin the CB 3 rails down to the opposit short rail.

But if you plan for a MUCH thinner cut, you can use center ball and "lag speed" to get shape much more easily.

One of the main points of the process is to create an awareness that there IS a better than average point within the "acceptable" shape zone and to be goal oriented about getting there.

The second purpose is the shoot a PRECISION shot...to an exact spot...even if doing so is not "necessary" when one spot is just as good as another. But the mind set of using precision on EVERY shot serves the purpose of creating the goal of using precision at all times and honing the skill of being able to do so...rather than to just bang in an easy shot not caring if the CB moves a ball width or 3 balls widths (assuming it doesn't matter one way or the other).

But PRECISION always matters. Sometimes you will HAVE to move the CB only one ball width...or three...so you should take every opportunity to excercise precsion even when you don't need it in order to be able to achieve it when you DO need it.

And please know that the above is not something I made up. It came to me from a champion player.

Just sharing.

Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
02-05-2008, 12:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Actually the exact spot target was for consistent concentration. My playing mostly 9-ball, I don't use this method, mainly because I was mentored away from attempting to play perfect, but I do understand the mentality...third ball shape in 9B makes more sense, UNTIL it costs you in taking a shot for granted and goofing up an easy out. I'm gonna revert back to the perfect position theory after this thread. Hell, my game's so far down rightr now, it's worth a try...sid <hr /></blockquote>

LOL!

Note that if you fail to fall perfectly, you don't beat yourself up. But you have to attempt to land SOMEWHERE so why not TRY to get as close as you can to the most advantageous spot.

As I noted above, thinking in terms of 3 ball shape is a GREAT place to start. Most league players though, often forget to keep adding a ball to the 3 ball series and get out of line in a hurry.

I doubt that there is a single champion player who does not see the entire route before they shoot their first shot.

Sometimes there IS no run out route so they have to play 4 balls to a safety or a cluster break out. And sometimes the route is so obstructed that they run into a ball unintentionally. On other occasions, they miss shape and have to adjust the route to get back in line.

But I don't think there is any top pro who thinks in terms of a "rolling 3 shot series" i.e. make the first of 3 and then add another ball. Their route planning skills are WAY more advanced than that...IMHO.

Gentle reader...just ask yourself how many times you have shot to a zone...landed there just fine...and then when actually surveying the shape needed on the next OB...kicked yourself for not playing for a greater or lesser angle within that zone.

It's happened to me about 10,000 times so it was like a slap on the forehead when I was told that there are better and worse places in the zone...that I need to understand that...and play for the better places...not just accept "average."

(-:

av84fun
02-05-2008, 12:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
play for the wide portion of the position zone wedge but play for an EXACT spot in the wide portion of the wedge <hr /></blockquote>
This is difficult-I agree its important to get on the correct side and make every shot important,even the simple ones,but when you have a WEDGE of area that you can place the cueball, trying to get it EXACTLY in one spot, is too much thinking-
I've seen people putting dollar bills on the table and trying to get the cueball to land on it-I dont think its necessary /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

Right Carol. As I wrote, I too think that placing paper...dollar bills etc. on the table is a bad idea because it gives you a target that will never be there in a match.

BUT....being AWARE where to place the dollar, and why, is VALUABLE knowledge...much more so than visualizing a big wedge wherein there are better and worse places to fall.

Target shooters aim at the bullseye...not just at the general center of the target...and for exactly the same reason.

(-:
Jim

CarolNYC
02-05-2008, 05:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Actually the exact spot target was for consistent concentration. My playing mostly 9-ball, I don't use this method, mainly because I was mentored away from attempting to play perfect, but I do understand the mentality...third ball shape in 9B makes more sense, UNTIL it costs you in taking a shot for granted and goofing up an easy out. <hr /></blockquote>
Your right Sid /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I dont know why I overlooked the "concentration" reasoning-!
Thanks for clearing that up!
Carol

CarolNYC
02-05-2008, 05:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Note that if you fail to fall perfectly, you don't beat yourself up. But you have to attempt to land SOMEWHERE so why not TRY to get as close as you can to the most advantageous spot <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, I agree-I've seen some players get upset because they "wanted the cueball right HERE!"But they were still in an area where they could make the shot /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I've looked at layouts and had the runout pattern all set,but,there were many times that "runout pattern' had to be changed ,because ,I didnt land perfect-I must admit, getting perfect would make the game so much easier /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
and play for the better places...not just accept "average."
<hr /></blockquote>
I like that!Especially the 8 to the 9-pocket that money ball and make it as easy as possible /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Its very good practice technique!
Have a great day!
Carol

New2Pool
02-05-2008, 06:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> Finding the "EXACT spot" in the position zone wedge would be very difficult to do on every shot. Not that it's not possible to do sometimes... but VERY difficult everytime.

I think playing for a 3rd ball position zone would be a much more productive way to practice. Rack 9 balls. Place 6 striped balls and also the 1,2 and 3 ball randomly in a diamond shape.

After the break spot any balls that pocket so all 9 balls are on the table. Start out with BIH and pocket any striped ball. Get shape on any other striped ball that will leave you position on the 1 ball.

You must pocket any 2 striped balls and then the 1 ball. Then you must pocket any 2 of the other striped balls and then the 2 ball. Finally you must pocket the last 2 striped balls and then the 3 ball.

Practicing this way would make you play for position on every ball and also make you think 3 balls ahead. It sounds like it wouldn't be very hard to make all nine balls this way but it isn't that easy unless you concentrate on each shot.

You can keep track of how well you get shape if you write down how many times you make the 1,2 and 3 for every nine balls racked. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the drill idea. for those of us who are still struggling to make more than 4 in a row on a consistent basis in 9 ball this is a good place to start.

Billy_Bob
02-05-2008, 09:29 AM
For years, part of my warm-up practice has been to set a row of balls between the side pockets, then with CB in hand and one diamond back, try drawing CB back 1 diamond, then two diamonds for second shot, then 3, 4, etc.

Also I do a similar thing with follow. Set up a shot into the corner with CB 1 diamond away from OB, then 1st shot follow 1 diamond past where OB was, then 2 diamonds for next shot, then 3, 4, etc.

Doing this practice daily has taught me to be able to draw back an exact distance or follow an exact distance.

Note that another element of being able to do this is always using the same brand/hardness/shape/recently scuffed/chalked tip. Consistent tip plus tons of practice allowed me to learn to do this.

Anyway this is paying off BIG time. Almost every game I need to leave the CB 1 ft. back or 1 ft. forward or get CB to roll half way down table, or get CB to roll all the way down table and stop. This is pretty easy stuff to do if you practice daily and use a consistent tip.

Now I am building on this "baseline". I am beginning to be able to judge angled shots and how far CB will travel and how far and what direction CB will go after hitting a rail.

Another "baseline" for CB travel I use is a lag shot. If I have a long shot with a thin cut into the far corner pocket, basically what I need is "lag shot speed" to get the CB to pocket ball, hit far rail, then come back to near rail. This is keeping in mind that with a thin cut, the CB will retain most of its speed.

SpiderMan
02-05-2008, 10:29 AM
The advice you received is very good. I have a four-word motto that I repeat to myself now and then - "don't play vague shape".

Sometimes, when a pattern seems obvious, I may catch myself merely sending the cueball to an area at the other end of the table (playing "vague shape"). And, once in a while, this results in a bad angle that makes the runout suddenly difficult. It's nothing but a lapse of concentration.

Don't play vague shape!

SpiderMan

wolfdancer
02-05-2008, 10:47 AM
It's been an interesting thread, with some good comments from everybody. While we are all aware of playing for position...I picked up a tip, or two from the discussion.....thanks to all!!!

SKennedy
02-05-2008, 11:00 AM
Don't you think this advice is best for a player at or above a certain skill level...a more skilled player? While I have lapses in focus, I don't think I'm nearly good enough to worry about my shape in such an exact manner....at least not at this point. But, I'm hopeful that one day I can.
Thanks for the advice.

eg8r
02-05-2008, 11:11 AM
Carol, I agree completely. When I am playing I know where I want the cue ball to go and that is what I strive for but if for every single shot I am stressing on hitting one single exact spot then I am going to be beyond concentration and into the zone of over thinking. I think in the end this idea of hitting an exact spot every time will have some negative effects on the person when they fail over and over. Some agree others don't but it is the same issue with people who tell you that it is best to play on the tightest table possible so when you play on a more forgiving table it will be easier. That all sounds great in theory but after applying it the results for the most part are not what was expected and almost always worse.

Very very seldom does someone get better when subjected to constant failure (i.e., trying to hit an exact spot always, or shooting on a table that is too tight for their abilities). Like I said, some agree and some don't but that is my experience.

eg8r

eg8r
02-05-2008, 11:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But I don't think there is any top pro who thinks in terms of a "rolling 3 shot series" i.e. make the first of 3 and then add another ball. Their route planning skills are WAY more advanced than that...IMHO.
<hr /></blockquote> What is there to gain by looking any further ahead? I don't regularly see a need to look further but maybe that is why I as skilled as a pro. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Deeman3
02-05-2008, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
But I don't think there is any top pro who thinks in terms of a "rolling 3 shot series" i.e. make the first of 3 and then add another ball. Their route planning skills are WAY more advanced than that...IMHO.
<hr /></blockquote> What is there to gain by looking any further ahead? I don't regularly see a need to look further but maybe that is why I as skilled as a pro. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Ed,

You are right. Unless there is a cluster or some other odd thing that you need to deal with, three balls is plenty for everyone and many get in trouble trying to think too far ahead anyway.

Besides, like Earl said, "Position is for wimps!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

av84fun
02-05-2008, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Don't you think this advice is best for a player at or above a certain skill level...a more skilled player? While I have lapses in focus, I don't think I'm nearly good enough to worry about my shape in such an exact manner....at least not at this point. But, I'm hopeful that one day I can.
Thanks for the advice. <hr /></blockquote>

Sure, the ability to achieve precise position is an advanced skill that must be developed by drills. I have used the exact drills Billy Bob wrote about for years.

And CB direction as well as distance is critical. I will post a direction estimation technique in another thread I will title The Magic Y.

But even beginners can and should come to understand the issue of better/worse position targets...even if they can't yet achieve them.

If I could start over, once establishing sound mechanics (posture, alignment, stroke etc.) I would spend 80% of my practice time on CB distance and direction drills because THAT is what pool is all about.

Regards,
Jim

bradb
02-05-2008, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Carol, I agree completely. When I am playing I know where I want the cue ball to go and that is what I strive for but if for every single shot I am stressing on hitting one single exact spot then I am going to be beyond concentration and into the zone of over thinking. I think in the end this idea of hitting an exact spot every time will have some negative effects on the person when they fail over and over. Some agree others don't but it is the same issue with people who tell you that it is best to play on the tightest table possible so when you play on a more forgiving table it will be easier. That all sounds great in theory but after applying it the results for the most part are not what was expected and almost always worse.

Very very seldom does someone get better when subjected to constant failure (i.e., trying to hit an exact spot always, or shooting on a table that is too tight for their abilities). Like I said, some agree and some don't but that is my experience.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I try for a favorable zone on every shot and If I reach that area I'm happy. I had 2 ero's last night and except for easy shots, I don't think I got within a foot of perfection. I had a few crucial shots that had to be precise so I beared down and took a lot of time but I know if I did that on every shot i would be a bundle of nerves and lose my rhythm. Also I completely bungled a few shape shots but i made sure I had a secondary ball.

The table I was playing was tight with slow cloth so I concentrated more on ball making. No sense getting perfect shape if you miss the shot. -brad

av84fun
02-05-2008, 12:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Carol, I agree completely. When I am playing I know where I want the cue ball to go and that is what I strive for but if for every single shot I am stressing on hitting one single exact spot then I am going to be beyond concentration and into the zone of over thinking. I think in the end this idea of hitting an exact spot every time will have some negative effects on the person when they fail over and over. Some agree others don't but it is the same issue with people who tell you that it is best to play on the tightest table possible so when you play on a more forgiving table it will be easier. That all sounds great in theory but after applying it the results for the most part are not what was expected and almost always worse.

Very very seldom does someone get better when subjected to constant failure (i.e., trying to hit an exact spot always, or shooting on a table that is too tight for their abilities). Like I said, some agree and some don't but that is my experience.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

With respect, coming close to the ideal position spot is not "failure" any more than getting a "B" on a report card instead of an "A" is failure.

As I stated earlier, shooting at a "bullseye" is a fundamental issue in target sports and pool is clearly a target sport.

In addition, choosing the "bullseye" does not constitute over-thinking. That choice is made before you ever bend down over the shot.

If you can send the CB, say, 2, 3, 4 diamonds of distance +/- one ball width...which top players can do routinely... then not choosing to play precision shape rather than "vague" shape as another poster referred to it, is a mistake.

Regards,
Jim

eg8r
02-05-2008, 12:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
As I stated earlier, shooting at a "bullseye" is a fundamental issue in target sports and pool is clearly a target sport.
<hr /></blockquote> This analogy does not work in this situation. In target shooting (arrow, gun, spitball, etc) all you care about is whether or not your projectile hit the target, in pool that projectile is not as easy since there are two objects and a target. The CB, OB and pocket.

If we were to compare your situation to target shooting then we would be trying to get the arrow to hit the bullseye, then pop out of the target and fly over in front on the next target so that you could shoot at it (even that does not fit perfectly because target shooting is missing the 'object ball' portion)

I understand "driving" for an exact spot, however if that is what you pushing yourself to do, it is the end result, then you will have failed if you don't reach that spot. Ultimately in the end this has to do with how seriously the player is trying to hit an exact spot. As you mentioned with grades, if your parent told you that if you did not get an A you would be punished and you showed up with a B, well you failed.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with trying to get perfect position to land in a perfect spot, I am just trying to say that if you focus on that too much you will lose concentration and begin over thinking. I see it happen all the time and in more areas than just playing pool.

eg8r

eg8r
02-05-2008, 12:20 PM
OK, I wanted to make sure that I was not missing anything.

It has been mentioned a couple times now that a pro will know the pattern/path for the most part at the beginning fo the game, however, even when they are shooting they are only "thinking" about a few balls ahead to make sure they stay in line, they are never thinking six balls away while trying to make the current shot.

eg8r

av84fun
02-05-2008, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
But I don't think there is any top pro who thinks in terms of a "rolling 3 shot series" i.e. make the first of 3 and then add another ball. Their route planning skills are WAY more advanced than that...IMHO.
<hr /></blockquote> What is there to gain by looking any further ahead? I don't regularly see a need to look further but maybe that is why I as skilled as a pro. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

An entire book could be written on route selection so at the risk of over-simplification, let me take a stab at answering your question.

1. There are often key shots that make or break a run out.
For example, say the 4 ball is on the foot rail and the 5 is on the head rail so you are faced with a LONG position shot and likely have 3-4 balls that may be blocking several natural routes.

Or, say you have a 7/8 ball cluster.

In such cases, you must play a CERTAIN position route so that you can get from the 4 to the 5 ball in the first example. In the second example, you need to determine which position play...on the 1-6 balls will allow you to break up the 7/8 cluster.

Top players will A) recognize the "problem shot" and B) plan on how to deal with it before they ever bend over the first shot in their inning.

If you just think in terms of 3 ball sequences, then by the time you get to the 4 ball...and start thinking in terms of getting on the 6 ball properly in order to break out the 7/8, you may have already passed by the ideal break out shot!

One of the reasons playing straight pool is valuable in developing skills for other games is that in straight pool, getting on the break ball properly requires getting on the key ball properly which requires getting on the "key, key ball" properly.

Essentially, once the rack is spread, you work from the break ball BACKWARDS in order to develop a "position map" and that same skill is IMPORTANT to 8 Ball and 9 Ball for exactly the same reason.

Clearly, the original position map may have to be modified to the extent that you miss position or run into balls etc.

Typically, when the amateur gets out of line on one shot, they get progressively MORE out of line on subsequent shots. The pros are MUCH more capable of getting back in line.

Please don't misunderstand...playing for successive 3 ball shape is WAY, WAY better than "banger pool" where they make one ball and then worry about making another one.

But at the start of an inning, determining where the problems are and creating a "position map" to address those problems is a skill that we all should aspire to.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
02-05-2008, 12:29 PM
Deeman3..."Besides, like Earl said, "Position is for wimps!"


LOL!! Classic Earl....try to talk others out of doing what he KNOWS is critical and what he did better than anyone in the world for quite a while!!
(-:

av84fun
02-05-2008, 01:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
As I stated earlier, shooting at a "bullseye" is a fundamental issue in target sports and pool is clearly a target sport.
<hr /></blockquote> This analogy does not work in this situation. In target shooting (arrow, gun, spitball, etc) all you care about is whether or not your projectile hit the target, in pool that projectile is not as easy since there are two objects and a target. The CB, OB and pocket.

If we were to compare your situation to target shooting then we would be trying to get the arrow to hit the bullseye, then pop out of the target and fly over in front on the next target so that you could shoot at it (even that does not fit perfectly because target shooting is missing the 'object ball' portion)

I understand "driving" for an exact spot, however if that is what you pushing yourself to do, it is the end result, then you will have failed if you don't reach that spot. Ultimately in the end this has to do with how seriously the player is trying to hit an exact spot. As you mentioned with grades, if your parent told you that if you did not get an A you would be punished and you showed up with a B, well you failed.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with trying to get perfect position to land in a perfect spot, I am just trying to say that if you focus on that too much you will lose concentration and begin over thinking. I see it happen all the time and in more areas than just playing pool.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, the analogy works just fine. There is only ONE "bullseye" for the CB and either not knowing where it is or not attempting to come as close as you can to it will produce a worse outcome than if the bullseye is identified.

And the child who got the "B" instead of an "A" has NOT failed...it is the PARTENT who failed by demeaning the child!!!

As noted earlier, I disagree with your "over-thinking" argument.

The brain is CLEARLY capable of multi-tasking. When playing pool you need to primarily...

1. Aim properly and
2. Control the path and speed of the CB.

In the aiming process, you only think ONCE...you determine the desired point of contact and you don't keep rethinking that issue.

Regarding CB speed/direction, you have already determined the desired direction and the cueing technique required to achieve it before you ever bend over the shot.

Once over the shot the ONLY thing you should "think" about is the PACE of the shot.

For clarity, once over the shot, grooving the stroke along the path of aim you have already thought about is not "thinking"...it is mechanics.

Directing the cue to the tip-to-CB contact point that has already been decided upon is not "thinking" it is mechanics.

So, all you should "think" about while over the shot relates to programming the brain to cause the muscles to creat a certain SPEED.

At that point, getting NEAR the ideal target spot is NOT FAILURE but rather is a degree of success.

If any teacher or parent tells you otherwise, then you should go get a house cue and place it in that certain part of their anatomy where it would do the most good!!
(-:

Finally, please...no one should conclude that my precision position advice is not something to get all bent out of shape about mentally or in any other way.

Rather, I am suggesting that targets have bullseyes for a very good reason and that a position ZONE is the TARGET and it should have a bullseye just like any other target should have and for all the same reasons.

Regards,
Jim

SKennedy
02-05-2008, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> If I could start over, once establishing sound mechanics (posture, alignment, stroke etc.) I would spend 80% of my practice time on CB distance and direction drills because THAT is what pool is all about.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I'm primarily working on right now. And I do have a pretty good idea where my CB will end up. However, I do become frustrated when I "miss my mark" by just a couple of inches or so and don't have a decent shot as a result. Sometimes there's more than one way to get position and I don't always see the other way, or choose the way that is the most difficult to get position, or has the narrower window to obtain decent position.
The biggest thing I feel like I need to work on right now is ball speed. Too many times I just come up a little short (no jokes please) or just a little too long.

eg8r
02-05-2008, 01:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
An entire book could be written on route selection so at the risk of over-simplification, let me take a stab at answering your question.

1. There are often key shots that make or break a run out.
For example, say the 4 ball is on the foot rail and the 5 is on the head rail so you are faced with a LONG position shot and likely have 3-4 balls that may be blocking several natural routes.

Or, say you have a 7/8 ball cluster.

In such cases, you must play a CERTAIN position route so that you can get from the 4 to the 5 ball in the first example. <hr /></blockquote> This is easily handled with the 3 ball "rule" that we have been talking about. Your shot on the 2 ball should have theoretically got you in the correct position on the 3 ball to make it easier to get to the 4. Now you make the 2 get the correct position on the 3. The shot on the 3 will then theoretically get you in the correct position on the 4 to allow you to get to the 5.

The only thing I can think of where just using the 3 ball "rule" is not beneficial is if you have a cluster (like you pointed out with 7 and 8) and you want to break that up as soon as possible. Other than that, what other instances will the 3 ball "rule" not be useful?

[ QUOTE ]
If you just think in terms of 3 ball sequences, then by the time you get to the 4 ball...and start thinking in terms of getting on the 6 ball properly in order to break out the 7/8, you may have already passed by the ideal break out shot! <hr /></blockquote> This is true and I agree that breaking out a cluster is the only example I can think of for not relying "strictly" to the 3 ball "rule". I say not to use it strictly because in this example, a cluster to breakup, you can still quickly identify which ball you will use to break the cluster and then drop right back into the 3 ball "rule" until you get the to breakout shot.

The 3 ball rule seems to always work especially if you have identified any problems ahead of time.

[ QUOTE ]
One of the reasons playing straight pool is valuable in developing skills for other games is that in straight pool, getting on the break ball properly requires getting on the key ball properly which requires getting on the "key, key ball" properly.
<hr /></blockquote> Once again, in straight pool, if the key ball is identified soon enough, then the 3 ball rule will work just fine. Especially in the beginning of the rack when maybe identifying the key ball is not as detrimental, if you see the correct pattern to play, the 3 ball will still work perfectly, even though it will be re-evaluated as you move along.

[ QUOTE ]
Typically, when the amateur gets out of line on one shot, they get progressively MORE out of line on subsequent shots. The pros are MUCH more capable of getting back in line.
<hr /></blockquote> I agree completely but this has nothing to do with being able to see any more than three balls ahead, does it?

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't misunderstand...playing for successive 3 ball shape is WAY, WAY better than "banger pool" where they make one ball and then worry about making another one.
<hr /></blockquote> I love playing with fellow co-workers and hear them say, I am going to shoot this shot but I know it won't go. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Hit em and Hope is what I encourage.

[ QUOTE ]
But at the start of an inning, determining where the problems are and creating a "position map" to address those problems is a skill that we all should aspire to. <hr /></blockquote> LOL, my problem is that once I begin shooting the balls, I create "new" problem balls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
02-05-2008, 01:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the analogy works just fine. There is only ONE "bullseye" for the CB and either not knowing where it is or not attempting to come as close as you can to it will produce a worse outcome than if the bullseye is identified.
<hr /></blockquote> I just disagree with the use of a target, it is apples and oranges when comparing to playing pool.

[ QUOTE ]
And the child who got the "B" instead of an "A" has NOT failed...it is the PARTENT who failed by demeaning the child!!! <hr /></blockquote> LOL, need to get in to parenting, the situation was just simply laid out as an example. If you did not hit what you were aiming at, an A for example, then you failed.

[ QUOTE ]
As noted earlier, I disagree with your "over-thinking" argument.

The brain is CLEARLY capable of multi-tasking. When playing pool you need to primarily...

1. Aim properly and
2. Control the path and speed of the CB.

In the aiming process, you only think ONCE...you determine the desired point of contact and you don't keep rethinking that issue.
<hr /></blockquote> We obviously disagree. I wonder though how many people agree with you that you will not be overthinking the shot at some point.

eg8r

bradb
02-05-2008, 03:20 PM
Without getting lengthy I would just add that yes, sometimes you do need an exact target.

For instance you have a narrow alley to get to, so you go over and study the exact spot you need to be in. I have noticed some pros go over to the shape spot and mark it with their cue tip, (they don't actually mark the table.) This is maybe once in two or three games, if you did it all the time you would lose momentum, you have to rely on your instinct for most shape.
-brad

av84fun
02-05-2008, 05:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> If I could start over, once establishing sound mechanics (posture, alignment, stroke etc.) I would spend 80% of my practice time on CB distance and direction drills because THAT is what pool is all about.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I'm primarily working on right now. And I do have a pretty good idea where my CB will end up. However, I do become frustrated when I "miss my mark" by just a couple of inches or so and don't have a decent shot as a result. Sometimes there's more than one way to get position and I don't always see the other way, or choose the way that is the most difficult to get position, or has the narrower window to obtain decent position.
The biggest thing I feel like I need to work on right now is ball speed. Too many times I just come up a little short (no jokes please) or just a little too long. <hr /></blockquote>

Join the club re" ending up a little long or short...including the PRO club! Another poster mentioned a progressive speed drill and here is my version of it...and it WORKS GREAT!

1. Place an OB an inch in front the the jaws of the right side pocket.

2. Place the CB the same distance off that long rail 2 diamonds back of the side pocket.

3. Make that straight in shot with 1 tip of high center to get an immediated "true roll" on the CB and with just enough force to have the CB follow 1 diamond past the side pocket.

4. Then play for 2 diamonds,,,then 3. 4 diamonds = barely contacting the head rail...5 diamonds is back 1 diamond and 6 is back two diamonds.

5. For the 1-2 distances, allow a 1/2 ball error margin.

6. For the 3-4 distances, allow a full ball width i.e. some part of the ball must be on the diamond line...either ahead or behind it.

7. For 5-6 distances, allow a half diamond error margin.

8. IMPORTANT....NAME your speeds..i.e. your "1 speed" or "2 speed etc. because when you transition to running racks, you will see that the CB has to roll say, 2 diamonds, so you want to use your "2 speed."

9. After you have those speeds pretty well nailed, then move the OB a ball to the left for a cut shot but STILL use your normal speed ratings but OBSERVE that the CB will roll X inches farther because you are cutting the shot. You will find that your 2 speed will roll the CB 3 diamonds etc. but in actual play you will call on your 2 speed knowing you will get 3. Then move the OB 2 balls to the left and repeat. Now your 1 speed with go 3 diamonds etc.

10. Do the SAME speed over and over until you think you have it nailed and then go to the next speed etc. Finally, when you think you are a hero, start going 1-3-2-4 etc. and you will find that you are not quite so heroic but KEEP AT IT and before too long, you will be able to summon almost any distance on demand with quite amazing accuracy...if you have the necessary eye/hand coordination.

IT WILL TAKE TIME TO CALIBRATE YOUR SPEEDS AND THE DRILL IS ABOUT AS BORING AS WATCHING GRASS GROW...BUT NO PAIN, NO GAIN!!

In a few MONTHS of HARD WORK, you will significantly upgrade your CB distance control.

When you mentioned your frustraion at missing the mark by just an inch or two and not have a decent shot...only emphasizes my point that such precision is always a good idea and sometimes is CRITICAL to the outcome of the rack.

You also mentioned that sometimes there is a better way to plan a route and YES...pattern recognition is a HUGE variable.

I would suggest that when you are working patterns you forget about your normal pace of play and view pattern work as a DRILL. Then TAKE YOUR TIME on each position decision and look for every conceivable option you might have.

Just like anything else, with practice, you will soon be able to identify those options very quickly and can play at your normal pace.

Finally, practicing the use of inside english will provide HUGE benefits in broadening you pattern choices but is a VERY advanced skill that should await conquering other skills.

But once you really get on top of the use of inside english you are making life MUCH easier on yourself because it opens of ENTIRE NEW ROUTE options. That is true since your aim point will be different that when using centerball or outside english so the CB will move off the OB along a different path AND the CB will depart the rail in an entirely different direction.

Often you will find that you have no route at all using center or outside but might have a few options if you use inside.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
02-05-2008, 05:50 PM
eg8r

"I just disagree with the use of a target, it is apples and oranges when comparing to playing pool."

Then we must agree to disagree. The CB is the "arrow" and the chosen spot in the position zone is the bullseye. Apples to apples all day long.

"If you did not hit what you were aiming at, an A for example, then you failed."

Agree to disagree. Considering a "B" as a failure is depressing concept. Do you also think you "fail" when you finish second in a tournament?

"I wonder though how many people agree with you that you will not be overthinking the shot at some point."

Respectfully, that is not important to me. In fact, on my cynical side, I hope EVERYONE disagrees...and has LOTS of money to bet!!!

(-:

av84fun
02-05-2008, 06:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Without getting lengthy I would just add that yes, sometimes you do need an exact target.

For instance you have a narrow alley to get to, so you go over and study the exact spot you need to be in. I have noticed some pros go over to the shape spot and mark it with their cue tip, (they don't actually mark the table.) This is maybe once in two or three games, if you did it all the time you would lose momentum, you have to rely on your instinct for most shape.
-brad <hr /></blockquote>

Some pros point their cue tips on some occasions and not on others. Other pros NEVER point their tips but IMHO (ony)they ALL have a bullseye in the shape zone unless it simply makes no difference.

That is often true when only 2-3 balls are left and they have MULTIPLE routes, each of which are just as good as the other.

But my original point was to PRACTICE for pin point shape spots because if you don't, then you won't be able to hit them when you DO need them.

Even on the 9 Ball, I pick a SPOT to send the CB to...for two reasons.

One, how many times have you made the 9 and SCRATCHED??

I have done it PLENTY of times and so have world champions!

Two...practice is practice. We all practice too little in the first place, so why pass up ANY opportunity to practice a skill so VITAL as CB direction and speed.

Just slamming the 9 in is a wasted opportunity.

Regards,
Jim

CarolNYC
02-05-2008, 06:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
every single shot I am stressing on hitting one single exact spot then I am going to be beyond concentration and into the zone of over thinking. I think in the end this idea of hitting an exact spot every time will have some negative effects on the person when they fail over and over. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Ed,
How are you?
This actually happened with a kid I know-whether he was trying to impress me or what, I kept saying "why are you trying to get perfect" because, when he didnt, he got totally frustrated-there was no need for it-he was a good shooter and you know how "kids" are.......they cry-at least some do-
Hey, even I cry /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Carol

eg8r
02-05-2008, 08:34 PM
There's no crying in pool!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am doing great but I will be stuck in Philly once again next week missing out on Valentines Day yet another year.

How are you?

eg8r

eg8r
02-05-2008, 08:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Then we must agree to disagree. The CB is the "arrow" and the chosen spot in the position zone is the bullseye. Apples to apples all day long. <hr /></blockquote> When you fire your arrow towards your target do you need to ricochet it off of another arrow?

[ QUOTE ]
Agree to disagree. Considering a "B" as a failure is depressing concept. <hr /></blockquote> You fail to understand the point even though it is black and white.

[ QUOTE ]
Respectfully, that is not important to me. <hr /></blockquote> The beauty of this is that it is not about you, this forum is about everyone, and if many people actually thought like you it would be something interesting to look into.

eg8r

eg8r
02-05-2008, 08:44 PM
I definitely agree about the occasional need for exact position.

eg8r

av84fun
02-05-2008, 11:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> There's no crying in pool!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am doing great but I will be stuck in Philly once again next week missing out on Valentines Day yet another year.

How are you?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I guess you've never heard of Hennessee!!

(-:

av84fun
02-06-2008, 12:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
[ QUOTE ]
When you fire your arrow towards your target do you need to ricochet it off of another arrow?<hr /></blockquote>

The analogy is the causing of a projectile to be directed to a target.

But you are having difficulty with that concept so let me give you a few more examples.

Basketball shots (backboard first). Racquetball...handball and squash. Hockey pucks passed by shooting into the boards first. Golf shots directed toward the high portion of a slanted green so that the ball rolls down to the hole.

GET IT??????

[ QUOTE ]

Agree to disagree. Considering a "B" as a failure is depressing concept. <hr /></blockquote> You fail to understand the point even though it is black and white.<hr /></blockquote>

No, I understand your point quite clearly. But you happen to be wrong, which is your problem not mine.



[ QUOTE ]
The beauty of this is that it is not about you, this forum is about everyone, and if many people actually thought like you it would be something interesting to look into.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Let me refer you back to your high school statistics studies..especially the bell curve.

The second worst place to be is where most other students are.

Pop Quiz...Where is the BEST place to be?
A. The top 10%?
B. The middle 80%?
C. The bottom 10%?

Finally, let me say that your descending to rather impudent remarks is unfortunate.

I started this thread to pass on advice I was given by a WORLD CHAMPION. The fact that you disagree is, of course, your right but you don't have to get snotty about it.

But where your argument falls COMPLETELY apart is the notion that because a given skill is HARD to acquire, no attempt should be made to do so.

In fact, champions do LOTS of things that are very hard...which is why they are champions.

And with respect to "failure" as you so wrongfully characterize a lack of perfection, one of the hallmarks of true champions is "mental toughness" one important aspect of which is the understanding that falling short of perfection is INEVITABLE and when it happens, the great ones shake it off almost immediately and get back to business.

Conversely, wallowing in thoughts of failure is a characteristic of mediocrity.

Regards,
Jim

CarolNYC
02-06-2008, 06:57 AM
HEY,
Im doing GREAT! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
PM me the info-I have to go upstate the weekend,but can maybe shoot out to Philly for an hour or two and buy you lunch! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

SKennedy
02-06-2008, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> If I could start over, once establishing sound mechanics (posture, alignment, stroke etc.) I would spend 80% of my practice time on CB distance and direction drills because THAT is what pool is all about.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I'm primarily working on right now. And I do have a pretty good idea where my CB will end up. However, I do become frustrated when I "miss my mark" by just a couple of inches or so and don't have a decent shot as a result. Sometimes there's more than one way to get position and I don't always see the other way, or choose the way that is the most difficult to get position, or has the narrower window to obtain decent position.
The biggest thing I feel like I need to work on right now is ball speed. Too many times I just come up a little short (no jokes please) or just a little too long. <hr /></blockquote>

Join the club re" ending up a little long or short...including the PRO club! Another poster mentioned a progressive speed drill and here is my version of it...and it WORKS GREAT!

1. Place an OB an inch in front the the jaws of the right side pocket.

2. Place the CB the same distance off that long rail 2 diamonds back of the side pocket.

3. Make that straight in shot with 1 tip of high center to get an immediated "true roll" on the CB and with just enough force to have the CB follow 1 diamond past the side pocket.

4. Then play for 2 diamonds,,,then 3. 4 diamonds = barely contacting the head rail...5 diamonds is back 1 diamond and 6 is back two diamonds.

5. For the 1-2 distances, allow a 1/2 ball error margin.

6. For the 3-4 distances, allow a full ball width i.e. some part of the ball must be on the diamond line...either ahead or behind it.

7. For 5-6 distances, allow a half diamond error margin.

8. IMPORTANT....NAME your speeds..i.e. your "1 speed" or "2 speed etc. because when you transition to running racks, you will see that the CB has to roll say, 2 diamonds, so you want to use your "2 speed."

9. After you have those speeds pretty well nailed, then move the OB a ball to the left for a cut shot but STILL use your normal speed ratings but OBSERVE that the CB will roll X inches farther because you are cutting the shot. You will find that your 2 speed will roll the CB 3 diamonds etc. but in actual play you will call on your 2 speed knowing you will get 3. Then move the OB 2 balls to the left and repeat. Now your 1 speed with go 3 diamonds etc.

10. Do the SAME speed over and over until you think you have it nailed and then go to the next speed etc. Finally, when you think you are a hero, start going 1-3-2-4 etc. and you will find that you are not quite so heroic but KEEP AT IT and before too long, you will be able to summon almost any distance on demand with quite amazing accuracy...if you have the necessary eye/hand coordination.

IT WILL TAKE TIME TO CALIBRATE YOUR SPEEDS AND THE DRILL IS ABOUT AS BORING AS WATCHING GRASS GROW...BUT NO PAIN, NO GAIN!!

In a few MONTHS of HARD WORK, you will significantly upgrade your CB distance control.

When you mentioned your frustraion at missing the mark by just an inch or two and not have a decent shot...only emphasizes my point that such precision is always a good idea and sometimes is CRITICAL to the outcome of the rack.

You also mentioned that sometimes there is a better way to plan a route and YES...pattern recognition is a HUGE variable.

I would suggest that when you are working patterns you forget about your normal pace of play and view pattern work as a DRILL. Then TAKE YOUR TIME on each position decision and look for every conceivable option you might have.

Just like anything else, with practice, you will soon be able to identify those options very quickly and can play at your normal pace.

Finally, practicing the use of inside english will provide HUGE benefits in broadening you pattern choices but is a VERY advanced skill that should await conquering other skills.

But once you really get on top of the use of inside english you are making life MUCH easier on yourself because it opens of ENTIRE NEW ROUTE options. That is true since your aim point will be different that when using centerball or outside english so the CB will move off the OB along a different path AND the CB will depart the rail in an entirely different direction.

Often you will find that you have no route at all using center or outside but might have a few options if you use inside.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the information Jim. I appreciate the help and I'm sure there are others who could benefit from this info. You are right about inside english. I never used it and never felt comfortable trying to use it. A very skilled player told me about a year ago that I really needed to learn it and start using it when necessary. His advice was sound and since then I have learned to use it and do use it. Now, I use it for position play, but initially I used it more to prevent a scatch, especially on the 8-ball (playing 8-ball). Quite a few times I would find myself in a potential scratch situation on the 8-ball where inside english would prevent the scratch. Instead, I was forced to do something else that was not as good an alternative. This guy told me that if I started to use inside english on those shots I could win more games. He was right. However, as my game has improved I find myself less and less in that situation and have better position on the 8-ball anyway.

eg8r
02-06-2008, 10:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I started this thread to pass on advice I was given by a WORLD CHAMPION. The fact that you disagree is, of course, your right but you don't have to get snotty about it.
<hr /></blockquote> Uh oh, I stepped on your feet. I am sorry I did not know you and your world champion had a lock on all the "correct" info.

eg8r

av84fun
02-06-2008, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I started this thread to pass on advice I was given by a WORLD CHAMPION. The fact that you disagree is, of course, your right but you don't have to get snotty about it.
<hr /></blockquote> Uh oh, I stepped on your feet. I am sorry I did not know you and your world champion had a lock on all the "correct" info.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

No one has a lock on correct information sir...especially, and quite obviously...you.

But to close the loop with you, please let me know if you FINALLY understand the concept of directing a projectile to a target after intermediate contact with another object.

I could provide you with more helpful examples if you
still don't get it.

But PLEASE don't harbor feelings of failure just because you have having trouble grasping that concept.

Being of average intelligence is not failure...even if your mommy and daddy told you it was.

(-:

av84fun
02-06-2008, 01:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the information Jim. I appreciate the help and I'm sure there are others who could benefit from this info.<hr /></blockquote>

You are very welcome!

Regards,
Jim

eg8r
02-06-2008, 01:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But to close the loop with you, please let me know if you FINALLY understand the concept of directing a projectile to a target after intermediate contact with another object. <hr /></blockquote> Your comparison to shooting at a target is apples and oranges as far as I am concerned. In pool you are not concerned with only sending your cb to a specific spot, there is more to it which makes a comparison to shooting at a target worthless.

[ QUOTE ]
Being of average intelligence is not failure...even if your mommy and daddy told you it was. <hr /></blockquote> This coming from the guy that uses (-: instead of the images and thinks the B was OK instead of getting an A. You really have missed the mark.

eg8r

bradb
02-06-2008, 02:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
Some pros point their cue tips on some occasions and not on others. Other pros NEVER point their tips but IMHO (ony)they ALL have a bullseye in the shape zone unless it simply makes no difference.

But my original point was to PRACTICE for pin point shape spots because if you don't, then you won't be able to hit them when you DO need them.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, of course I visuallize a particular spot in our minds eye to the location I desire. but its not something that dominates my stroke. I know the zone I need to be in and I except getting to that zone as success in continuing. But my own point was I don't belabour it unless I MUST get to an exact spot to continue.

I practice perfect shape as part of my over all shot routine, but I will say that there are 3 simplistic priorities I set for myself in this order of importance:

1. Make the ball.
2. Control the pace/spin to spot visualized
3. Stay down

-brad

av84fun
02-06-2008, 06:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Your comparison to shooting at a target is apples and oranges as far as I am concerned. <hr /></blockquote>

You seem to be preoccupied with fruit.

[ QUOTE ]
This coming from the guy that uses (-: instead of the images and thinks the B was OK instead of getting an A. You really have missed the mark.<hr /></blockquote>

The use of (-: to suggest a smiling face is well known to several billion people in the world.

Using that symbol instead of another symbol is a graphics choice...not one based on intellect...as anyone with even a modest amount of intellect...and who is not determined to be petty...would understand.

May I ask if you post on the AZ forum under another screen name? That is the domain of choice for petty bickering and is totally out of place here IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

eg8r
02-06-2008, 06:34 PM
Ah yes, not only do you think you have a lock on the most correct info your world champion can spoon feed you, you like to use old school smiley faces. LOL, I now see why your mommy told you the B was OK, she knew her kid did not have an A in him.

[ QUOTE ]
May I ask if you post on the AZ forum under another screen name? <hr /></blockquote> Yes you can ask.

Run along and play now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

av84fun
02-06-2008, 07:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Ah yes, not only do you think you have a lock on the most correct info your world champion can spoon feed you, you like to use old school smiley faces. LOL, I now see why your mommy told you the B was OK, she knew her kid did not have an A in him.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
May I ask if you post on the AZ forum under another screen name? <hr /></blockquote> Yes you can ask.

Run along and play now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

What is your AZ screen name? Or are you ashamed to admit what it is?

As far as being "spoon fed" information from world champions...WAY more than one by the way...try as I might, I can't bring myself to apologize for that.

But hey Bubba...you just keep playing vague shape and limiting yourself to 3 ball position patterns along with the rest of the league bangers. Fine with me.

And by the way, I have it on good authority that you are not even a short stop player so, by your very own definition, you must consider yourself a failure in pool ...which explains your closed-minded, petty, snide, impudent and otherwise pointless posts in this thread.

Have you considered counseling? Depression associated with feelings of inadequacy and a sense of failure is a serious mental health problem that can be treated with professional help and medication.

I feel your pain man.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r
02-06-2008, 10:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What is your AZ screen name? Or are you ashamed to admit what it is?
<hr /></blockquote> No you nit I am not ashamed of it, you asked me if you could ask, I said yes. My screen name on AZ is eg8r. As smart as you think you are I am beginning to think in school you were actually shooting for the B and settled for the C.

[ QUOTE ]
And by the way, I have it on good authority that you are not even a short stop player so, by your very own definition, you must consider yourself a failure in pool <hr /></blockquote> I do consider myself a failure in pool, I am not even a shortstop. So, C boy what else do you have? I have been quite honest on this board so I was wondering why you feel the need to run around in the dark asking about my game? Why not just ask me, have I given you any reason to believe I would lie about it?

[ QUOTE ]
which explains your closed-minded, petty, snide, impudent and otherwise pointless posts in this thread.
<hr /></blockquote> You got it C boy. LOL, I remember a little pissing contest you got into over on AZ once and you had your rear handed to you. I guess you are hoping for a rebirth over here.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you considered counseling? <hr /></blockquote> I have. I should seek out your world champions to see if they are as closeminded as yourself.

Have a good night C boy.

eg8r

av84fun
02-06-2008, 11:25 PM
Just as I presumed. The eg8r on the AZ forum has a habit of submitting argumentative posts and has a total of ONE rating point. I have 10 which is about the correct ratio from what can be inferred by your pointless and unpleasant posts.

And no, I have never had my rear end handed to me. I was born with it and it has remained properly attached all these years.

FINALLY, I will now turn my intellectual pursuits to determining whether there is an ignore function on this forum. If so, you will be the first reason I will seek its blessed relief.

You are WAY not worth my time.

But you are correct about one thing....finally. I seldom post on the AZ forum anymore because there are SO many small-minded (and probably small-appendaged) mopes like you on that forum. Too many people suffering from such low self-esteem that they find the need to precipitate petty arguments from the murky confines or their meager existences.

If you need to engage in that sort of behavior to bolster your self-importance, I truly feel sorry for you.

But you'll have to find someone else to lose arguments to from now on

Bye Bye.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r
02-07-2008, 09:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Just as I presumed. The eg8r on the AZ forum has a habit of submitting argumentative posts and has a total of ONE rating point. I have 10 which is about the correct ratio from what can be inferred by your pointless and unpleasant posts.
<hr /></blockquote> Well darn, if I knew rating points was how you determined your knowledge I would have tried harder. LOL you crack me up.

eg8r

SKennedy
02-07-2008, 01:56 PM
My gosh fellows? Enough already....This is expected on the NPR side and I'm guilty of the same things but I don't understand your dislike for each other here. I've re-read some of the posts on this thread and somewhere along the line things just turned ugly. I've met one of you and know he's a decent guy and the other also seems to be a nice individual. I've got to say eg8R that I think you went overboard on this one and I really don't think the other poster deserves it.
And while eg8R is certainly not a pro player, don't underestimate him either. There are many of us out here who may not qualify as your "shortstop" but that doesn't mean we're an easy mark either. Maybe your "shortstop" pay just doesn't encourage eg8R to even pick up a stick, much less exert any focus?
This site is great when it helps those of us who are not great at pool. We all realize everyone will not agree and it's fine to debate, but I think both of you are above this sort of behavior.

eg8r
02-07-2008, 03:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've got to say eg8R that I think you went overboard on this one and I really don't think the other poster deserves it.
<hr /></blockquote> Maybe you are right, and maybe not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe your "shortstop" pay just doesn't encourage eg8R to even pick up a stick, much less exert any focus?
<hr /></blockquote> Nah, he could probably just shoot the lights out and like he said I am not even a lowly pathetic shortstop who wished I was good enough to make it but have failed along the way. Anyways, you have definitely hit on one point that is completely off subject but you are correct. When I was in college I played pretty well. Since I was never a gambling man I don't have much to measure it against, but we had some tough competition at UF and I enjoyed every minute of it. Having said that, I saw just how poor these great pool players are and decided a real job made more sense. Now I have the best of both worlds, I can play pool where ever I want all over the country and I don't have to worry if I have enough money to get to the next state. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

SKennedy
02-07-2008, 04:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I've got to say eg8R that I think you went overboard on this one and I really don't think the other poster deserves it.
<hr /></blockquote> Maybe you are right, and maybe not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Maybe your "shortstop" pay just doesn't encourage eg8R to even pick up a stick, much less exert any focus?
<hr /></blockquote> Nah, he could probably just shoot the lights out and like he said I am not even a lowly pathetic shortstop who wished I was good enough to make it but have failed along the way. Anyways, you have definitely hit on one point that is completely off subject but you are correct. When I was in college I played pretty well. Since I was never a gambling man I don't have much to measure it against, but we had some tough competition at UF and I enjoyed every minute of it. Having said that, I saw just how poor these great pool players are and decided a real job made more sense. Now I have the best of both worlds, I can play pool where ever I want all over the country and I don't have to worry if I have enough money to get to the next state. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

It's not about me being right or wrong...just my opinion.

As for making a living playing pool......I looked at the earnings for 2007 and yes, there are many ways to make more money. But, it's not always about the money. For me it's about making a living doing something one enjoys. I really enjoy my job. My family and friends are well aware of this because it shows in my attitude about work....However, although I love my job and have turned down other opportunities to make substantially more money, I would strongly consider giving up my career if I could make 1/2 the money I make now (guaranteed) by playing pool. Now, my wife may have a different perspective. So, regardless of income, I am very envious of anyone out there who plays at the pro level. It's about being the "best of the best." It's hard to put a price on that. My son wasn't quite good enough to play baseball (pitcher) at the pro level....although I'm sure he could have wrangled some low-level A ball somewhere.... But, he played college baseball and had a decent record and pitched and played against guys that are now in the major leagues. How much money did he really get out of that? Scholarship money, which helped....but he got much more out of it than that...and how many of us would have given anything to play even at the collegiate level? When you are good enough to play with the pros you have reached a pinnacle the rest of us can only dream about. While the money and level of success may vary among the elite, even the lower player has a level of success and has experienced something that no one can ever take from him/her. To me, that's priceless. It may not always put food on the table or get you that corvette, but it's still priceless. Do you really think someone like Allison was driven purely for money? I think she was driven to excellence in spite of the money (or lack thereof).
You and I are both lucky in that we make a decent salary to support a family and play pool. But they are not mutually exclusive.....and while I may improve in skill and can one day be a level 7 in APA 8-ball, I'll still always be a mediocre amateur at best.

av84fun
02-07-2008, 06:20 PM
SKennedy....VERY thoughtful post. And I am sure that you didn't/don't think your son was a "failure" because he didn't quit make it to the bigs.

But unfortunately, there ARE people in the world who would harbor those feelings and who feel that getting "B" grades is a failure...or even make fun of people they THINK were "C" students.

It's hard for me to even fathom that sort of mentality but it certainly does exist.

Regards,
Jim

eg8r
02-08-2008, 07:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But unfortunately, there ARE people in the world who would harbor those feelings and who feel that getting "B" grades is a failure...or even make fun of people they THINK were "C" students.

It's hard for me to even fathom that sort of mentality but it certainly does exist. <hr /></blockquote> You really did miss the point and now that you are belaboring it you are showing your rear for all to see. My statement was if the goal is an A and you miss it, then you failed to get an A. How do you continue to miss this very simple idea.

eg8r

SKennedy
02-08-2008, 10:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> SKennedy....VERY thoughtful post. And I am sure that you didn't/don't think your son was a "failure" because he didn't quit make it to the bigs.

But unfortunately, there ARE people in the world who would harbor those feelings and who feel that getting "B" grades is a failure...or even make fun of people they THINK were "C" students.

It's hard for me to even fathom that sort of mentality but it certainly does exist.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

I was primarily a B student....I seem to have quite a few former A students working for me now and as a general rule the B &amp; C students make better all-round employees. Of course the old saying about this stuff is something like this..."The person who made all A's works for the boss, who was a C student, while the B students are now teachers.

And no, I do not consider my son a failure. To be able to pitch in the majors requires more than knowledge, hard work, dedication, etc....it requires a "gift...." the gift of being able to throw a 90+ mph fastball. You can work on your mechanics, which can help increase ball speed up to a point, and you can learn how to throw various pitches and work on control...., but no one can "teach" you how to throw that fast.

My son now teaches and coaches baseball at a high school in Texas. His students and players love him and they are doing well. He is a positive influence on these kids. To me, that makes him very sucessful.

av84fun
02-08-2008, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
But unfortunately, there ARE people in the world who would harbor those feelings and who feel that getting "B" grades is a failure...or even make fun of people they THINK were "C" students.

It's hard for me to even fathom that sort of mentality but it certainly does exist. <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
You really did miss the point and now that you are belaboring it you are showing your rear for all to see. My statement was if the goal is an A and you miss it, then you failed to get an A. How do you continue to miss this very simple idea.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

First, you seem to be fixated on my rear end which makes me very nervous.

Second, you are a liar. Below is what you stated.

Me:

With respect, coming close to the ideal position spot is not "failure" any more than getting a "B" on a report card instead of an "A" is failure.

You:
As you mentioned with grades, if your parent told you that if you did not get an A you would be punished and you showed up with a B, well you failed.

Nah, he could probably just shoot the lights out and like he said I am not even a lowly pathetic shortstop who wished I was good enough to make it but have failed along the way.

I do consider myself a failure in pool, I am not even a shortstop.

__________________________________________________ ________

The above shows very clearly that you consider falling short of goals to be OUTRIGHT FAILURE...as you ADMITTED you consider yourself to be in pool.

You DID NOT imply that getting a B is merely failing to get an A which is a self-evident fact that only a fool would feel the need to point out.

Instead YOU MADE IT CLEAR that getting a B constitutes FAILURE....PERIOD...and your attempt to dance around your quite cynical comments only points out the weakness in your character along with your intellect.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r
02-08-2008, 07:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The above shows very clearly that you consider falling short of goals to be OUTRIGHT FAILURE...as you ADMITTED you consider yourself to be in pool.
<hr /></blockquote> I did because the goal was stated that an A was required, since an A was not obtained then the person FAILED to get the A. If I did not know any better I would have thought you and Gayle were one in the same.

[ QUOTE ]
You DID NOT imply that getting a B is merely failing to get an A which is a self-evident fact that only a fool would feel the need to point out.
<hr /></blockquote> Exactly you dope. You did fail. If you were told you had to get an A or you were punished and you got a B what was the outcome...hello Mcfly, it is punishment. Now when you are in punishment you sure don't consider that success.

[ QUOTE ]
Instead YOU MADE IT CLEAR that getting a B constitutes FAILURE....PERIOD <hr /></blockquote> IT IS IN THE EXAMPLE I PROVIDED BUT YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO CATCH ON. Now, how is that for dancing around my cynical comments. I can now see you are not a man of your own words and have decided to firmly plant you head up your rear.

eg8r &lt;~~~would not be so fixated on your rear if you would not keep showing it off

PS. SKennedy, you were probably right, before he did not deserve the sharpness of my posts, but now he has proven I was right, no sorry this time.

av84fun
02-09-2008, 02:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
PS. SKennedy, you were probably right, before he did not deserve the sharpness of my posts, but now he has proven I was right, no sorry this time. <hr /></blockquote>

For someone who is so willing to demean the intelligence of others, you sure use a LOT of run-on sentences such as the above which contains BOTH run-on and comma splice FAILURES. YOU SHOULD BE SPANKED!!!!!

Keep it up. You are making a total fool of yourself.


I think you mentioned having attended the University of Florida. Was that as a student or did you provide janitorial services? Just curious.

And I don't ask that condescendingly. I have been on my own since the age of 17 and spent merely 2 semesters in college, where I played more pool than anything else.

Somehow though, I've managed to scrape by as a senior executive with a few multi-billion dollar investment banking firms in my 40 year career. Just lucky I guess.


And there you go again with your anal fixation which, tellingly, is associated with the punishment line you have been harping on.

As one noted authority wrote:

"Freud developed a theory of how our sexuality starts from a very young age and develops through various fixations. If these stages are not psychologically completed and released, we can be trapped by them and they may lead to various defense mechanisms to avoid the anxiety produced from the conflict in and leaving of the stage.

In particular, anal fixation, may be caused by too much punishment during toilet training."

I am sorry for you if your belligerent attitude is a result of an abusive childhood that might have included a lack of parental acceptance of your obviously limited intellectual capacity and/or your "failure" to pooh pooh in the potty at an early enough stage.

But at the same time, I can understand at least a degree of frustration on your parent's part if you were unable to grasp such simple concepts as directing a cue ball to a specific target while factoring in a collision with the object ball.

That is a SIMPLE concept that I am certain any average 9 year old would have no trouble with. However, you not only had difficulty in grasping it but also manifested juvenile, petty and bitter outpourings and name calling as a result of your inner frustrations.

Your intellectual shortcomings, that you may well have been punished for as a youth, are also apparant in your inability to understand the limitations of 3 ball position strategy.

Almost comically, you demonstrate your ignorance that 3 ball position routes are taught to beginner and intermediate players to start them on the path to pool mastery.

There is not a championship player on planet earth who does not assess the entire layout...in both 8 Ball and 9 Ball before bending over their first shot.

And let me give you a really good clue. Once the overall route has been analyzed, they abandon ANY THOUGHT of ANY POSITION PLAY other than the shot at hand. So after having analyzed the layout, they abandon ALL multi-ball route thinking and concentrate solely on the ONE shot that counts i.e. the one they are shooting.

AND...they know EXACTLY where they intend to send the cue ball.

AND...they harbor either NO or MOMENTARY feelings of failure if they miss their target. If they DO miss, they adjust and commit fully to the next shot without resorting to self-flagellation or other manifestations of a sense of failure.

The ability to dismiss occasional failures is the HALLMARK of champions and explains why you are not one and never will be.

Have you ever read a pool instruction book? In Jack Koehler's Science of Pocket Billiards, he devotes 11 full pages of TEST diagrams where the reader is challenged to figure out the ENTIRE run out pattern.

Capelle in Play Your Best Nine Ball devotes SEVENTEEN pages to the same studies.

Here's another quickie quiz for you.

After mastering 3 ball position routes the player should begin to master:

A. 4 ball routes and more.
B. No routes at all because it is a waste of time.
C. Counting out $20 bills to give to his opponents.

But you just stick with 3 ball patterns and vague shape. Your opponents will LOVE you for it...but they WILL punish you for your failure to keep your cash in your jeans...by putting into theirs. That is why I assume you would have chosen C above.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

JoeW
02-09-2008, 09:05 AM
Thanks av84fun, I have enjoyed this series of thought provoking posts. I have a compromise position with regard to your ideas. First I very much agree that precision play is a key to the game for the reasons that you give. In addition, concentration is also a key factor. The realization that the verbal (standing up) and physical (bending down) forms of concentration are difficult to balance and sustain in “zoning” then precision play becomes even more important to excellent play.

However, with regard to target shooting, I use a compromised technique. I agree that one does not physically see a target when playing. However, one can recall something like a target in one’s mind. I made a computer generated red bulls-eye with a 2 ¼” center. The next yellow circle is 5 ½” diameter and the rest is an 8 ½ X 8 ½ sheet of white paper.

In my thinking I have an exact target for position play. The yellow circle is an “atta boy” circle meaning I have done pretty well. In this way I am playing for exact position but am not likely to get disappointed when (as I usually do) I miss the bulls-eye. This is a crutch but a useful one for sustaining my interest and evaluating my shot making.

The target is a “no bs” real word place that the CB is supposed to land on. When I look at the result there is no compromise; “Well I was close,” type of thinking. It is on or it is not on.

There are many things I do in practice that are not done during actual play, none-the-less they are useful such as increased attention to detail, video taping, etc. I think that some of these things transfer to the actual game situation such as an ability to visualize the exact place I want the CB – no fuzzy thinking here.

edit --- maybe some fuzzy thinking !
While sitting in the hot tub and thinking about precision play it occurred to me that the bulls-eye should be white or cream colored. The second zone can stay yellow. That might help place the non-existent target better in memory than my current red target. I am not really interested in the position of the three ball /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r
02-09-2008, 01:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think you mentioned having attended the University of Florida. Was that as a student or did you provide janitorial services? <hr /></blockquote> Were you the dopey looking kid cleaning the urinals as the Reitz?

[ QUOTE ]
And there you go again with your anal fixation which <hr /></blockquote> LOL, you are commenting on my sentence structure yet you have failed some very basic comprehension. Before you posted the word anal, who else has mentioned this? It is your fixation that has driven your twisted mind to think like that.

[ QUOTE ]
Almost comically, you demonstrate your ignorance that 3 ball position routes are taught to beginner and intermediate players to start them on the path to pool mastery. <hr /></blockquote> LOL, did I state this? I don't remember so. If I didn't though I don't think the 3 ball rule is a bad thing for an intermediate player to know.

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry for you if your belligerent attitude is a result of an abusive childhood <hr /></blockquote> LOL, taking liberties are you. And you were making fun of anothers intellect.

[ QUOTE ]
There is not a championship player on planet earth who does not assess the entire layout <hr /></blockquote> More strawman arguments as no one has stated otherwise.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever read a pool instruction book? <hr /></blockquote> Absolutely not, so, are you Gayle or not? This reference to thinking you are the only person who has read a book seems very familiar.

You have proven to be a C student. Since you had zero coherent thoughts you decided to throw up a ton of strawman arguments and type a ton of words hoping we would miss the fact that you ignored my post.

eg8r

bradb
02-09-2008, 01:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> I made a computer generated red bulls-eye with a 2 ¼” center. The next yellow circle is 5 ½” diameter and the rest is an 8 ½ X 8 ½ sheet of white paper.
<hr /></blockquote>

Joe there is a instructional system like that... several actually. My friend uses one called the Bullard system. You place actual paper targets on the table then you place the ball in preset positions and the scoring is how close you get to the targets center. Making the ball is only part of the scoring, the shape is where you get your points. -brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

wolfdancer
02-09-2008, 02:55 PM
Your idea is very similar to Kim Davenport's "Target Pool" that had shots diagrammed, with points scored for landing on one of the intended target "rings"
Bert Kinnister also had a similar series of shots and position zones as a practice exercise

JoeW
02-09-2008, 03:07 PM
I had a cpy of Kim Davenport's Target Pool when it was first out. I Think that my son-in-law has it now. So part of the idea undoubtedly came from his work.

I have not seen the Bullard work but would be interested.

Seems to me that target pool (by whatever name) is a useful way to train the mind to select a specific target, much like Jim recommends.

bradb
02-09-2008, 03:17 PM
These methods of practising are certainly helpful as they place more emphasis on getting shape than ball making. The Bullard system is a local one. Davenports is certainly highly thought of.

av84fun
02-09-2008, 03:39 PM
Joe, thanks for your always interesting and thoughtful comments.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
02-09-2008, 04:06 PM
eg84 [ QUOTE ]
Were you the dopey looking kid cleaning the urinals as the Reitz?<hr /></blockquote>

If you would kindly rephrase the above into intelligble sentence, I would be happy to respond. Specifically, what does "as the Reitz" mean?


[ QUOTE ]
Before you posted the word anal, who else has mentioned this? It is your fixation that has driven your twisted mind to think like that.<hr /></blockquote>

You have made repeated references to the "rear end."

With rare exceptions, the anus is an integral component of the rear end. You are one of those exceptions since it seems that your anus is a component of your brain.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is not a championship player on planet earth who does not assess the entire layout
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More strawman arguments as no one has stated otherwise.

YOU DID! Do you have dual personalities in addition to your other troubling psychological maladies?

YOU argued that there was no point in going beyond 3 ball shape routes. Tell Frank to LEAVE and have Ed review the thread!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you ever read a pool instruction book?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely not, so, are you Gayle or not? This reference to thinking you are the only person who has read a book seems very familiar.

GAYLE WHO? WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT QUESTION? DID FRANK MAKE YOU WRITE THAT??????? (-:

And quite interesting that you admitted to never having read an instructional book. So, you don't care what world champions think and you don't read the enormously instructive teachings of those who have a deep understanding of the game. Fine. Whatever.

But what....EXACTLY WHAT...in the follwing sentence, lead you to conclude that I had suggested that I am the only person who has read a book"?

"Have you ever read a pool instruction book?"

You have issues Ed. Get some help.

Finally, in an earlier post you admitted that your earlier posts to me had been unnecessarily "sharp."

But I don't recall you're having posted an apology to me. Are you not man enough to own up to your misdeeds?

Just keep it up my man. Insert shovel...dig hole deeper.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

av84fun
02-09-2008, 05:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> These methods of practising are certainly helpful as they place more emphasis on getting shape than ball making. The Bullard system is a local one. Davenports is certainly highly thought of. <hr /></blockquote>

The one issue I have with targets per se, is that they tend to ignore the LINE that you want the CB on in the process of achieving down-the-line instead of across-the-line shape.

In many cases, so long as the CB is traveling along an ideal line toward the OB, it often doesn't make much difference where, on that line, the CB comes to rest.

In other words, what you often really care about is the ANGLE on the next shot and being one foot away from the OB or two feet away, for example, doesn't make any difference.

I've never tried it but it might be interesting to create a series of triangles of various angles and lengths with a line bisecting the angle to represent the ideal line for the CB to travel within the position zone represented by the paper triangle.

The relative degree of success would be measured by A) getting into the position zone and B) how close to the ideal line the CB actually tracked.

Possibly a similar system has already been created that I just haven't seen or have forgotten about.

Regards,
Jim

eg8r
02-09-2008, 10:32 PM
Who the heck is Frank?

eg8r

av84fun
02-09-2008, 11:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Who the heck is Frank?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

The name I've given to the other alter in your Disassociative Personality Disorder...sometimes referred to as Multiple Personality Disorder.

You know...the one that writes hateful, arrogant, insulting and often inchoherent posts. The one that suffers from such delusions as that I stated I am the only person who has read pool instruction books.

The one that lies about the content of his and other people's posts.

But it is often the case that the person suffering from the disorder does not realize it (some do) and deny its existence. Possibly, that's why you don't know who Frank is.

Certainly, a nice guy like Ed wouldn't post in such an objectionable fashion to a man who is merely trying to share insights on a pool discussion forum...who is selling nothing and who often attributes the information he posts to other people showing no intent to engage in personal self-glorification.

By the way...you say you travel a lot in your job. Are you a TAXI DRIVER?

I have an image of you standing alone in your bedroom, with a Mohawk haircut, army fatigues and guns strapped to your arms saying...."You talkin' to me? I'm the only one here!!!!

Get help...really.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Artemus
02-10-2008, 07:10 AM
I'm shocked and dismayed that the self-appointed forum police haven't jumped in on this little tiff. They know who they are and so does everybody else. I'm sure they'll now come on to jump on ME instead, which is great because it will clearly identify them for anyone who might not know their roles and expose them for being forum goofballs.

Imo, I LOVE the little tiff. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JoeW
02-10-2008, 10:25 AM
av84fun said, "The one issue I have with targets per se, is that they tend to ignore the LINE that you want the CB on in the process of achieving down-the-line instead of across-the-line shape."

I had not thought about playing in lanes with target pratice, though I suppose I do it. Here is a story that supports your point of view. Unfortunately, I do not remember the source. I think the drill comes from Bob Jewett progressive drills but I am kinda fuzzy this morning.

Place the OB 2 inches off the head rail and one diamond from the pocket. Place the CB one diamond of the head rail and one diamond off the side rail. There is a line (lane) of travel from one diamond off the head rail on the other side of the table to one diamond off the side pocket near the foot of the table.

The drill, as I read it was to place a target on the opposite side rail, one diamond off the head rail and use English to pocket the ball and place the CB on the target.

In the next shot the target is placed on the shot line (to that diamond below the side pocket) and two diamonds of the head and side rails.

The drill proceeds in this way until the target is finally below the side pocket.

I’ll try to post a cue table diagram in a few minutes.

The interesting thing about this target and lane drill was pointed out by Jim. It seems the most important thing that one learns is to keep the ball in a lane. The target helps learn speed control. Once the lane has been over-learned it is relatively easy to stop anywhere on the line.

The next major realization is that the line (or lane) can be altered with power and English. Speed control is important but seems relatively easier than learning lanes.

The bottom line is that I wind up agreeing with Jim. Lanes are more important. However, targets are important too as specific points of aim in the lane.

Perhaps, practice formats partially depends upon what one needs to learn at the time. None-the-less, it seems to me now (after Jim pointed it out) that all such drills should incorporate the development of thinking about lanes of travel as part of the target shooting drill.

Thanks Jim. You have expanded my thinking.

PS
Sorry, I do not see a way to include a cue table diagram.

av84fun
02-10-2008, 11:18 AM
Thanks Joe. I like your drill but do wish we could post diagrams here.

As you noted, down-the-line shape allows a MUCH greater margin of speed error and should be highly favored over across-the-line routes.

Every once in a while, I'll set up shots where I have to go two or even three rails to get lane shape even when there is a much shorter across-the line route.

I do that just to remind myself to always look for lane shape instead of defaulting to the shortest route.

Regards,
Jim

bradb
02-10-2008, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Thanks Joe. I like your drill but do wish we could post diagrams here.
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

If you have PhotoShop Image Ready you can create your own. First download a diagram from the web. Go to Google/images- type in "billiard table graphics"... find one you like and download it.

In PS use the clone stamp tool to remove graphics on the table you don't want, then add your own ball placements and lines, (Save it as a 72 PPI, JPEG.)

Then go to http://photobucket.com/flock (log in) and upload it. Then come back to here and click "image" when you post and it will bring it in. Or you can refer to your Photobucket site name in your post.

Cheers, BB

av84fun
02-10-2008, 04:13 PM
Thanks BB but given my lack of puter skills, I would have a better chance playing 3 rail shape to a lock up safety!!!

(-:

eg8r
02-11-2008, 02:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
By the way...you say you travel a lot in your job. Are you a TAXI DRIVER?
<hr /></blockquote> LOL, nope, I am just a lowly janitor.

eg8r

wolfdancer
02-11-2008, 04:10 PM
ED, i wasn't going to join in on the discussion, but couldn't brush off the "baiting" post.
After watching for many days, a good, but obsessed player try to make balls in 4" corner pockets, that he then tightened further with pocket reducers; always felt he was just frustrating himself...I'd be more on your side of the discussion....
but everybody is different...some would be frustrated by the position misses; some might be inspired to practice harder.
The old books taught a zone, and the aim was for the fat part of the zone.
I once read this though about straight pool Vs say, 9 ball.
In 9 ball, you tried to land in an area; in straight pool, a spot ( I don't play straight pool..but that sounded logical)

av84fun
02-11-2008, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
By the way...you say you travel a lot in your job. Are you a TAXI DRIVER?
<hr /></blockquote> LOL, nope, I am just a lowly janitor.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Glad you got a chuckle. A truce is fine with me.

(-:

eg8r
02-11-2008, 05:43 PM
As stated in my PM, my apologies for my responses on this thread. It got out of hand and after some thought I regret I was part of it.

eg8r

eg8r
02-11-2008, 05:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
After watching for many days, a good, but obsessed player try to make balls in 4" corner pockets, that he then tightened further with pocket reducers; always felt he was just frustrating himself...I'd be more on your side of the discussion....
<hr /></blockquote> My reasoning for initially getting in on the thread is based on quite a few lengthy conversations with Mike Sigel when his shop was open in my area. I used to spend some time up there when he first opened and was not as busy. One great thing about him is if you can get him talking about himself he will talk your ear off. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif When my father in law was looking for a table they spent quite a long time with Mike looking at the tables he was selling. I noticed the pockets were not very tight and asked why. His response is that you don't want a tight table because you will just frustrate yourself missing "makeable" shots.

When my brother-in-law took lessons with Mike, Mike advocated the 3 ball rule (after being asked about it). He told him that once you have an idea of how you are going to run the table it is easier to just concentrate on a few balls at a time.

When you watch Mike play you can see he gets upset if the ball does not stop exactly where he wanted it to, but during the lessons he advocated practicing position by trying to get the cb to an area, never a specific spot because you would begin to over think and actually miss making the shot at hand.

eg8r

av84fun
02-11-2008, 08:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> As stated in my PM, my apologies for my responses on this thread. It got out of hand and after some thought I regret I was part of it.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Gladly accepted and I regret it if I got too harsh in response.

I'm sure you're a great guy and I'm not too bad a chap myself.

Regards,
Jim

SKennedy
02-12-2008, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
After watching for many days, a good, but obsessed player try to make balls in 4" corner pockets, that he then tightened further with pocket reducers; always felt he was just frustrating himself...I'd be more on your side of the discussion....
<hr /></blockquote> My reasoning for initially getting in on the thread is based on quite a few lengthy conversations with Mike Sigel when his shop was open in my area. I used to spend some time up there when he first opened and was not as busy. One great thing about him is if you can get him talking about himself he will talk your ear off. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif When my father in law was looking for a table they spent quite a long time with Mike looking at the tables he was selling. I noticed the pockets were not very tight and asked why. His response is that you don't want a tight table because you will just frustrate yourself missing "makeable" shots.

When my brother-in-law took lessons with Mike, Mike advocated the 3 ball rule (after being asked about it). He told him that once you have an idea of how you are going to run the table it is easier to just concentrate on a few balls at a time.

When you watch Mike play you can see he gets upset if the ball does not stop exactly where he wanted it to, but during the lessons he advocated practicing position by trying to get the cb to an area, never a specific spot because you would begin to over think and actually miss making the shot at hand.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

One of our local pool halls, and a newer one at that, has very tight pockets. I think it hurts the owner's business cause most players get frustrated. He has very few league teams playing at his place...again because of the tight pockets. They are set on the minimum width. I don't think he's done himself any favors, and suspect he would have changed them by now if he wasn't so hard-headed. But, he's a great guy and the tight pockets help me with my game....

bradb
02-12-2008, 07:17 PM
I have standard 5" pockets on my own table and I find it too easy compared to the tables in my league. I enquired into having wider shims put in but my installer recommended against it. He told me it would interfer with the tables natural play so I left my table as is.

One thing I have noticed is I have had just as many runs on the league tables as my own. For some reason the slightly tighter pockets don't make too much of a difference when its an even playing field for both players. Why this is I don't know? I guess we just adapt to the conditions.

SKennedy
02-13-2008, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> I have standard 5" pockets on my own table and I find it too easy compared to the tables in my league. I enquired into having wider shims put in but my installer recommended against it. He told me it would interfer with the tables natural play so I left my table as is.

One thing I have noticed is I have had just as many runs on the league tables as my own. For some reason the slightly tighter pockets don't make too much of a difference when its an even playing field for both players. Why this is I don't know? I guess we just adapt to the conditions. <hr /></blockquote>

Slightly tighter is one thing....the one's I was talking about are at the other end of the spectrum. And while we are playing at the same table, those who are more use to the tight pockets do have a advantage. I spoke with a high level skilled player last night who played on the tight pocket tables I refered to and he told me he became frustrated as he had trouble pocketing balls when using any speed. He and I agreed that the proprieter is not doing himself any favors when all his tables have such tight pockets. It just frustrates the average player....and last night I lost to a level 3 player...so I guess that makes me a below average player...but I have some good excuses for last night.....she may have been a level 3, but otherwise she was a definite 9 or 9.5!!

bradb
02-13-2008, 06:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>
Slightly tighter is one thing....the one's I was talking about are at the other end of the spectrum. And while we are playing at the same table, those who are more use to the tight pockets do have a advantage. I spoke with a high level skilled player last night who played on the tight pocket tables I refered to and he told me he became frustrated as he had trouble pocketing balls when using any speed. He and I agreed that the proprieter is not doing himself any favors when all his tables have such tight pockets. It just frustrates the average player....and last night I lost to a level 3 player...so I guess that makes me a below average player...but I have some good excuses for last night.....she may have been a level 3, but otherwise she was a definite 9 or 9.5!!
<hr /></blockquote>

I tell ya, you can't let up on some of these women players. I played a young girl last Monday who ran the rack right down to the 8 then left me tough. I then scratched trying to hit a ball. She took ball in hand, placed it in the break end, then tried to pocket the 8 way up table? Obviously she did'nt know the rules and thought she had to shoot from behind the line.

She missed and I was able to run out, but she had meet beat flat... 10 zit!

-brad
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SKennedy
02-13-2008, 09:19 PM
The lady beat me the first game, which was a 1 inning game! I won the next 2 and was shooting the 8-ball on the 3rd game and she had about 5 balls on the table. I could not cut the 8-ball properly as one of her balls was in the way so I attempted to use spin to "throw" the 8-ball toward the pocket and hit it easy hoping it would fall in. Even if I missed I figured I'd have another shot....so what do I do...I barely grazed her ball before the cue hit the 8-ball, throwing the 8-ball off line, as well as my cue ball....OK, so she has ball in-hand....I should still be OK....nope....cue ball finds a pocket. I was stunned! Lesson here....don't give up the first game when they only need 2 games. Ouch!
But you know what....she played well and I was glad for her..just wish it was at someone else's expense.

BigRigTom
02-13-2008, 09:35 PM
Welcome to my world. I have lost many matches over the past 7+ years in situations like the one you describe.

The longer you play APA the more experience you will get in playing those kinds of matches and the less you'll lose like that...but....there is always the chance that the lower skilled player will take you down.

The last time I was totally shocked out of a match was when I player a skill level 3 in 8 ball about a year ago ( I am a 6) so I had to win a 5 to 2 match. I had him 4 to nothing when I careless scratched the cue ball in the side off the end rail after making the 8 ball in my called corner pocket.

That 3 then broke and ran on me! Said it was his 1st break and run ever! OUCH!

Keep the faith. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

SKennedy
02-13-2008, 09:43 PM
If I shoot well and get beat, then I'm fine with it. It's when I shoot like crap that I get upset at myself (within reason). If I shoot poorly and win I'm not real happy with myself either......now I'm starting to understand how my wife feels about me and why! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bradb
02-14-2008, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> If I shoot well and get beat, then I'm fine with it. It's when I shoot like crap that I get upset at myself (within reason). If I shoot poorly and win I'm not real happy with myself either......now I'm starting to understand how my wife feels about me and why! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I brought my wife along last time and she noticed my anger towards myself when I do something stupid. She gave me "what for' and I'm beginning to see she was right, I sometimes place so much pressure on myself it takes away from my game. Its an old habit I'm going to have to work on. Thats going to take some time though, pool players are perfectionist and mistakes gall us much more than losing. I put the wrong english on a cut and lost a key match, I'm still brooding over that damn shot.

-brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SKennedy
02-14-2008, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> If I shoot well and get beat, then I'm fine with it. It's when I shoot like crap that I get upset at myself (within reason). If I shoot poorly and win I'm not real happy with myself either......now I'm starting to understand how my wife feels about me and why! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I brought my wife along last time and she noticed my anger towards myself when I do something stupid. She gave me "what for' and I'm beginning to see she was right, I sometimes place so much pressure on myself it takes away from my game. Its an old habit I'm going to have to work on. Thats going to take some time though, pool players are perfectionist and mistakes gall us much more than losing. I put the wrong english on a cut and lost a key match, I'm still brooding over that damn shot.

-brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Instead of brooding we should remember and learn from the mistakes so we don't make them again. Easier said than done.

Qtec
02-16-2008, 05:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> As stated in my PM, my apologies for my responses on this thread. It got out of hand and after some thought I regret I was part of it.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Gladly accepted and I regret it if I got too harsh in response.

I'm sure you're a great guy and I'm not too bad a chap myself.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

AaaaaaaWWWWWWW. Glad to see you guys have made up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Just like to add that eg8r is totally wrong on this one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


If you approach the shot with a pre-determined speed in mind, hitting the QB on a predetermined spot, then all you have to do is play the shot and make the OB go into the pocket. If you play the shot correctly, the OB will go where you want it to [ into the pocket] and the OB will take the desired path[ if it has the right spin] because it can't do anything else.
Basically, you make a decision where to hit the QB and try and make the OB.

Thats it.



Qtec