PDA

View Full Version : The Magic Y

av84fun
02-05-2008, 06:25 PM
In another thread, we are getting into CB distance/direction control.

Here is a visual technique that I fould REALLY helpful in my earlier days of trying to learn this game (AND STILL HAVE A LOT TO LEARN!!)

Getting shape is JOB TWO in pool if Job One is making a ball in the first place.

So, prediting the path the CB will take after OB impact is a BIG DEAL.

WARNING...the following is NOT geometrically correct but it recognizes that few of us are engineers and can't tell the difference between a 40 degree cut and a 37 degree cut but still would like to shoot good pool.

SO, a GREAT starting point is as follows.

If you look at all the instruction books that depict "natural" CB travel after OB impact, you will see that the line of approach of the CB...the line of departure of the CB off the OB and the line of travel of the OB form a Y.

When you look the shot over, you are standing at the base of the Y.

The point of contact on the OB is the bottom of the V of the Y.

If it is a cut to the right, then the CB will travel along the left fork of the Y and the OB will travel along the right fork.

OF COURSE...that depends on above-center ball cueing...and no more than a medium pace on the shot because if you cue low and/or shoot hard, then the CB will NOT proceed along the left fork of the Y...BUT the visualization is a BASELINE...a STARTING POINT and is pretty darn accurate.

To try this out, just set up a 20 degree cut or so...figure out where the OB contact point should be and stand on a line proceeding from that point back to where you are standing.

Then use your cue stick to form the vertical line part of the Y and OBSERVE the angle formed by the direction of travel the OB will take when it is struck by the CB relative to your cue stick.

Now just visualize that SAME angle to the LEFT (assuming a cut to the right). In other words, just visualize the left fork of the Y.

If struck with, say a tip above center so you get true roll and with soft or medium pace, you will be able to predict within about the width of a chalk cube where the CB will strike the rail on about a half table length shot.

Then use the "angle in = angle out" method of predicting the CB path off that rail and presto, you have a damn good idea where the CB is going to go as it travels toward the rail and then rebounds from it.

Again, this is a BASELINE technique for APA 5s or lower (although there is probably more than one player with a higher rating that does not estimate CB paths very well) but once you have that baseline, you will find it MUCH easier to learn how to vary CB travel off the fork of the Y using speed and or below center cueing.

It is MUCH easier to adjust if you have a baseline to adjust from.

Regards,
Jim

Jal
02-05-2008, 07:42 PM
It's a good method but there is a slightly easier and more accurate one: the 30 degree rule. A fully rolling cueball comes off the object ball at close to a 30 degree angle measured with respect to its pre-impact line of travel (the base of the "Y"). At least this is true for cut angles ranging from 3/4 ball hits to 1/4 ball hits.

Dr. Dave has come up with a way of easily estimating 30 degrees. Simply make a peace sign with your index and middle fingers. In my case, I have to put some tension on them to get the angle out to 30 degrees, so you do need to "calibrate" your fingers with a 30 degree reference. I believe he has a method for this at his website too.

The "Y" method becomes increasingly inaccurate as the cut angle moves away from 30 degrees. The 30 degree rule isn't perfect either, but I think it's much better for the reasons just given.

Jim

av84fun
02-05-2008, 11:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> It's a good method but there is a slightly easier and more accurate one: the 30 degree rule. A fully rolling cueball comes off the object ball at close to a 30 degree angle measured with respect to its pre-impact line of travel (the base of the "Y"). At least this is true for cut angles ranging from 3/4 ball hits to 1/4 ball hits.

Dr. Dave has come up with a way of easily estimating 30 degrees. Simply make a peace sign with your index and middle fingers. In my case, I have to put some tension on them to get the angle out to 30 degrees, so you do need to "calibrate" your fingers with a 30 degree reference. I believe he has a method for this at his website too.

The "Y" method becomes increasingly inaccurate as the cut angle moves away from 30 degrees. The 30 degree rule isn't perfect either, but I think it's much better for the reasons just given.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Jim. The issue is the Y. However one might best visualize it is great.

I happen to be lucky enough to be able to see angles in my mind's eye...which is how I play banks too...I can just see the angles.

But if using the peace sign helps others that's cool too.

Regards,
Jim

Jal
02-06-2008, 01:29 AM
And thanks for presenting the method Jim. I'm sorry to be so critical all the time, but then Dr. Dave, Bob J., madMac and others dog every statement I make, forever ready to pounce, and sometimes leaving me shaken for days with their nasty sarcasm. Please don't feel you're getting any "special" treatment. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jim

av84fun
02-06-2008, 02:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> And thanks for presenting the method Jim. I'm sorry to be so critical all the time, but then Dr. Dave, Bob J., madMac and others dog every statement I make, forever ready to pounce, and sometimes leaving me shaken for days with their nasty sarcasm. Please don't feel you're getting any "special" treatment. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

No worries Jim. I didn't perceive you as being critical...just offering an alternative to essentially the same concept.

And being a refugee from the Cuckoos Nest otherwise known as the AZ forum, I don't rattle easily!! (-:

It will be for others to decide which method of visualization suits them best.

I would be concerned about using the middle and index finger "Peace Sign" however...because if the opponent didn't happen to notice the index finger being extended...just the middle finger, then violence could erupt and either spoil the match, or make it more fun, depending on one's point of view on such matters!!

(-:
Jim

CarolNYC
02-06-2008, 07:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Then use the "angle in = angle out" method of predicting the CB path off that rail and presto, you have a damn good idea where the CB is going to go as it travels toward the rail and then rebounds from it. <hr /></blockquote>
Absolutely-theres the path!
Carol

dr_dave
02-06-2008, 10:38 AM
Many useful techniques and resources related to this can be found under "30 degree rule" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html).

Also, here is a useful posting from a previous thread:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I've posted information like this in the past; but since this topic has come up a lot recently, I thought I would post it again (with current links and new information).

"Where will the cue ball go after it hits an object ball?"

For a stun shot, most people know the right answer: in the tangent line direction, perpendicular to the OB direction. This is the 90-degree rule (see my Jan '04 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2004/jan04.pdf)). If you want a more precise answer that accounts for various effects (e.g., friction and English), see my March-June '05 articles (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html). FYI, here is a convenient one-page summary of the 90-degree rule (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/90_degree_rule_summary.pdf).

For a rolling CB, the cue ball changes direction by about 30 degrees for a wide range of cut shots (1/4 to 3/4 ball hit). This is the 30 degree rule (see my April '04 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2004/april04.pdf)). If you want to be more precise, the angle is a little more (about 34 degrees) closer to a 1/2-ball hit and a little less (about 27 degrees) closer to a 1/4-ball or 3/4-ball hit. If you want to know how to account for speed effects, see my June '05 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2005/june05.pdf). If you want an easy way to use your hand to accurately visualize the cue ball direction, use the Dr. Dave peace-sign technique (see NV 3.8 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV3-8.htm)). If you want to know how to precisely calibrate your hand for the 30 degree (or any other) angle, see the posting concerning Billy_Bob's finger technique (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=227266&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=). Also, see my 30-degree-rule angle templates (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/30-degree-rule_angle_templates.pdf). FYI, here is a convenient one-page summary of the 30-degree rule (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/30_degree_rule_summary.pdf).

For a draw shot with good draw action, the trisect system is your answer (see my March '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/march06.pdf)). You can use a modified version of the peace-sign technique to predict the cue ball direction (see the article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/march06.pdf) for illustrations and examples).

For shots "in between" all of these different cases, the cue ball will go somewhere in between the indicated directions. The only way to get a feel for how much "in between" the cue ball will go is to practice ... a lot!

Regards,
Dave

PS: More info and discussion concerning all of these principles can be found in the thread summary section of my website (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html).<hr /></blockquote>

BigRigTom
02-06-2008, 11:15 AM
I for one, never tire of reading about different ways of getting to the same destination.
I work at home now but on a previous job when I had to drive 32 miles to work every day I was always looking for different ways to get there and back...they were endless. It was always fun and educational to see different things every day and took the boredom out of the trip.

So it is with pool and all things in life. Variety is the spice of life someone once said. You just never know what will spark the "ah-ha!" in someone's mind.

The 1st time I had ever heard of the 30 degree rule was in Dr. Dave's book which I stumbled on at Border's one day while waiting for my wife to buy her books. I was already in my 40's and had over 30 years of pool under my belt....suddenly....it was "AH-HA!" for me.

I hope that most new players will NOT have to play 30 years to begin to understand why the cue ball scratches sometimes and not others.

wolfdancer
02-06-2008, 11:28 AM
I'm not sure if your "Y" method, doesn't infringe on Dr. Dave's patented peace sign method....
Seeing angles...which came after I was introduced to Hal Houle's methods....increased my own pocketing percentage. Reading "the Beards" fine book has helped with my banking. another 20 years and I'll have it all down pat. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SKennedy
02-06-2008, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm not sure if your "Y" method, doesn't infringe on Dr. Dave's patented peace sign method....
Seeing angles...which came after I was introduced to Hal Houle's methods....increased my own pocketing percentage. Reading "the Beards" fine book has helped with my banking. another 20 years and I'll have it all down pat. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Only 20 years? For me it's more like 120.

eg8r
02-06-2008, 12:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It will be for others to decide which method of visualization suits them best.
<hr /></blockquote> I agree and without trying either the Y seems to make most sense as a visualization besides sticking your "peace sign" down on the table. Am I mis-interpreting what they are saying or do people really make a peace sign then put it up against the object ball to figure out where their cue ball will be going?

eg8r

dr_dave
02-06-2008, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>Am I mis-interpreting what they are saying or do people really make a peace sign then put it up against the object ball to figure out where their cue ball will be going?<hr /></blockquote>If I have a critical shot close to a scratch, requiring precise caroms, needing ball break-up or avoidance, or with tight "traffic" of balls to negotiate, I most definitely pull out my well-calibrated fingers. When I do, I know with confidence almost exactly where the cue ball will go. I adjust my peace sign slightly for the cut angle, because I have practiced and calibrated my hand for various important angles using the 30-degree rule angle template (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html). I even adjust for speed, as shown in my June '05 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2005/june05.pdf). My well-calibrated fingers are still much more accurate than my intuition-based visualization.

Regards,
Dave

KellyStick
02-06-2008, 12:34 PM
I wish I had read some stuff about this years ago. Mighta saved me some time. Instead I learned by just shooting pool for several years. Fortunately in my early days I avoided any sort of english, draw or follow like the plague. I also would shoot real slow. So what developed was a true rebound baseline unaffected by speed and spin. So there's another approach. Just shoot natural roll and easy for 2-3 years and learn the rebound angles. Then start adding bits of english and such. Probably not very time efficient... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

dr_dave
02-06-2008, 12:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> I wish I had read some stuff about this years ago. Mighta saved me some time. Instead I learned by just shooting pool for several years. Fortunately in my early days I avoided any sort of english, draw or follow like the plague. I also would shoot real slow. So what developed was a true rebound baseline unaffected by speed and spin. So there's another approach. Just shoot natural roll and easy for 2-3 years and learn the rebound angles. Then start adding bits of english and such. Probably not very time efficient... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>I have also played for many years and have developed "intuition" as to where the cue ball goes for different types of shots, but I still use the various hand techniques (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=258205&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) to confirm my intuition and to be more exact when necessary.

Regards,
Dave

SKennedy
02-06-2008, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
It will be for others to decide which method of visualization suits them best.
<hr /></blockquote> I agree and without trying either the Y seems to make most sense as a visualization besides sticking your "peace sign" down on the table. Am I mis-interpreting what they are saying or do people really make a peace sign then put it up against the object ball to figure out where their cue ball will be going?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I have actually seen players do that with their fingers.....beginners primarily. My fingers won't spread enough for a stun shot...maybe I can use my little finger and my thumb on that one? I haven't yet seen someone with a protractor. Maybe I should take one to my next match? I might even take a slide-rule with me also. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BigRigTom
02-06-2008, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
It will be for others to decide which method of visualization suits them best.
<hr /></blockquote> I agree and without trying either the Y seems to make most sense as a visualization besides sticking your "peace sign" down on the table. Am I mis-interpreting what they are saying or do people really make a peace sign then put it up against the object ball to figure out where their cue ball will be going?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I have actually seen players do that with their fingers.....beginners primarily. My fingers won't spread enough for a stun shot...maybe I can use my little finger and my thumb on that one? I haven't yet seen someone with a protractor. Maybe I should take one to my next match? I might even take a slide-rule with me also. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hey this is not as off the wall as it sounds!
I was watching a documentary the other day about the history of the Mason's and when they were talking about the Mason's symbol and how it was a depiction of the "compass and square" I found myself wondering how many of the Mason's are pool players.

SKennedy
02-06-2008, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
It will be for others to decide which method of visualization suits them best.
<hr /></blockquote> I agree and without trying either the Y seems to make most sense as a visualization besides sticking your "peace sign" down on the table. Am I mis-interpreting what they are saying or do people really make a peace sign then put it up against the object ball to figure out where their cue ball will be going?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I have actually seen players do that with their fingers.....beginners primarily. My fingers won't spread enough for a stun shot...maybe I can use my little finger and my thumb on that one? I haven't yet seen someone with a protractor. Maybe I should take one to my next match? I might even take a slide-rule with me also. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hey this is not as off the wall as it sounds!
I was watching a documentary the other day about the history of the Mason's and when they were talking about the Mason's symbol and how it was a depiction of the "compass and square" I found myself wondering how many of the Mason's are pool players. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm one! Square and Compass to the rescue....

eg8r
02-06-2008, 01:53 PM
That is just funny for me to visualize. I would think as you begin to get better you will not need to do this?

You seem confident that you have calibrated everything and you will know exactly where the cb will go but I am a little skeptical of your calibration technique. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif How do you know that the first time you hit the cb you hit the object ball perfectly, yet when you used a hard high english shot you hit the OB in exactly the same spot?

eg8r &lt;~~not laughing at Dave, I just have never seen anyone actually put there "peace sign" up to the ball

dr_dave
02-06-2008, 04:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> That is just funny for me to visualize. I would think as you begin to get better you will not need to do this?<hr /></blockquote>I still think my well-calibrated hand will always be more accurate than my intuitive judgment; but I'll agree with you that good intuitive judgment is often good enough.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>You seem confident that you have calibrated everything and you will know exactly where the cb will go but I am a little skeptical of your calibration technique. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>I don't know why you are skeptical. After a few minutes of practice with the angle templates (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=252039&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=), it is quite easy to train your hand for the various important angles. BillyBob's finger trick (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=227266&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) makes it even easier.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>How do you know that the first time you hit the cb you hit the object ball perfectly<hr /></blockquote>The cue ball deflection angle can be approximated very closely, even if the hit is not perfect. That's why the 30-degree rule (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html) is so useful.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>yet when you used a hard high english shot you hit the OB in exactly the same spot?<hr /></blockquote>Probably not, because I am not perfect at adjusting for squirt and swerve; but again, the contact point doesn't need to be known perfectly to predict the cue ball direction fairly accurately. Obviously, I am assuming my aim (and squirt/swerve/throw compensation) is good enough to make the shot. Speed also needs to be taken into consideration because it changes how long the cue ball travels along the tangent line before curving to the predicted angle (see my June '05 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2005/june05.pdf)).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>eg8r &lt;~~not laughing at Dave, I just have never seen anyone actually put there "peace sign" up to the ball <hr /></blockquote>You can laugh all you want ... I'll still keep using my hands, and I'll still keep encouraging others to do the same.

Regards,
Dave

Ralph_Kramden
02-06-2008, 04:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>
eg8r &lt;~~not laughing at Dave, I just have never seen anyone actually put there "peace sign" up to the ball <hr /></blockquote>
Don't actually put the "peace sign" up to the ball. Stand back and look over your fingers from the direction that the cueball will be going.

The point of the 'V' should be visualized... not on the ball... but behind it where the center of the cueball will be when it contacts the OB. The cueball when struck with follow will take that path every time on a half ball hit.

dr_dave
02-06-2008, 05:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>The point of the 'V' should be visualized... not on the ball... but behind it where the center of the cueball will be when it contacts the OB. The cueball when struck with follow will take that path every time on a half ball hit.<hr /></blockquote>For a 1/2-ball hit, the angle is larger than 30 degrees (about 34) and for 1/4-ball and 3/4-ball hits, the angle is smaller (about 27 degrees). The angle is close to 30 over the entire range; but to be more accurate, it is good to be able to visualize the different angles or be able to make them with your hand. See my previous posting (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=274573&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) for more info.

Regards,
Dave

eg8r
02-06-2008, 06:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You can laugh all you want ... I'll still keep using my hands, and I'll still keep encouraging others to do the same.
<hr /></blockquote> I was quite specific in stating that I was not laughing. Keep encouraging people if it is helping them, I just have never seen anyone do this.

eg8r

Ralph_Kramden
02-06-2008, 10:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>The point of the 'V' should be visualized... not on the ball... but behind it where the center of the cueball will be when it contacts the OB. The cueball when struck with follow will take that path every time on a half ball hit.<hr /></blockquote>For a 1/2-ball hit, the angle is larger than 30 degrees (about 34) and for 1/4-ball and 3/4-ball hits, the angle is smaller (about 27 degrees). The angle is close to 30 over the entire range; but to be more accurate, it is good to be able to visualize the different angles or be able to make them with your hand. See my previous posting (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=274573&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) for more info.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>
I think my "Peace Sign" is actually 31degrees 27minutes 41seconds... unless I switch to my arthritic hand and get a completely different angle... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
02-06-2008, 10:08 PM
All it takes is a little calibration and you will be set. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>I think my "Peace Sign" is actually 31degrees 27minutes 41seconds... unless I switch to my arthritic hand and get a completely different angle... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>You guys are so funny ... must have been comedians in your past lives. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

You guys keep joking, and I'll keep showing people how to predict where the cue ball will go. No numbers required ... just a hand and 5 minutes of practice. If people prefer, they can build hands-free visualization skills instead with 20 years of intuition-building practice and experience. It's their choice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dave

PS: On a more serious note, if people have arthritic hands and can't comfortably create the important angles with their peace-sign fingers, the thumb and forefinger can be effective substitutes (especially if used with BillyBob's finger trick).

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> All it takes is a little calibration and you will be set. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>
You're finally getting it. Congratulations! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess old dogs can learn new tricks after all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dave

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>You can laugh all you want ... I'll still keep using my hands, and I'll still keep encouraging others to do the same.<hr /></blockquote> I was quite specific in stating that I was not laughing. Keep encouraging people if it is helping them, I just have never seen anyone do this.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for not laughing. I suspect you will see it one day.

I had the pleasure of meeting and having a long conversation with Allison Fisher several years ago, and she thought the peace-sign technique was a great idea. In fact, she is using it in one of her product endorsements (see Figure 14 here (http://www.billiardaimtrainer.com/html/using_the_bat.html)). Thanks to wolfdancer for sending me this link. To be clear, I have no financial interest in, nor do I endorse, this product.

Regards,
Dave

eg8r
02-07-2008, 11:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You guys keep joking, and I'll keep showing people how to predict where the cue ball will go. No numbers required ... just a hand and 5 minutes of practice. If people prefer, they can build hands-free visualization skills instead with 20 years of intuition-building practice and experience. It's their choice. <hr /></blockquote> It makes complete sense to continue doing what you find effective, I just don't understand the 20 year intuition time frame? I know some are slow learners but jeesh, 20 years? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
02-07-2008, 11:55 AM
Old dog? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am in my 30s I am still a pup.

eg8r

eg8r
02-07-2008, 11:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to wolfdancer for sending me this link. To be clear, I have no financial interest in, nor do I endorse, this product. <hr /></blockquote> No financial interest, if you think she got that tidbit from you why not get a little kickback. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>You guys keep joking, and I'll keep showing people how to predict where the cue ball will go. No numbers required ... just a hand and 5 minutes of practice. If people prefer, they can build hands-free visualization skills instead with 20 years of intuition-building practice and experience. It's their choice. <hr /></blockquote> It makes complete sense to continue doing what you find effective, I just don't understand the 20 year intuition time frame? I know some are slow learners but jeesh, 20 years? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>I have met many players who can't predict cue direction as accurately as I can with my hand. I guess the timeframe depends on the individual and the level of accuracy desired.

Dave

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Old dog? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am in my 30s I am still a pup.<hr /></blockquote>I'm in my 40s and also consider myself a pup, but it is still sometimes difficult to learn new tricks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Dave

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I have no financial interest in, nor do I endorse, this product. <hr /></blockquote> No financial interest, if you think she got that tidbit from you why not get a little kickback.<hr /></blockquote>I did "invent" the peace-sign technique, but I don't have any legal ownership of the idea. I consider it flattery when I see it appear in other places. I think the 30-degree-rule is the most important principle in pool, and I think the peace-sign technique can help people apply it with little effort. I'm glad people are benefiting from and using what I have written in my book and articles.

Regards,
Dave

SKennedy
02-07-2008, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Old dog? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am in my 30s I am still a pup.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I can vouch for the young pup part. He still has his "eyes." In addition, he plays better than he leads you to believe beforehand (and I shoot worse) and he can really put away the pizza!! Then again, so can I.

av84fun
02-07-2008, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>You can laugh all you want ... I'll still keep using my hands, and I'll still keep encouraging others to do the same.<hr /></blockquote> I was quite specific in stating that I was not laughing. Keep encouraging people if it is helping them, I just have never seen anyone do this.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for not laughing. I suspect you will see it one day.

I had the pleasure of meeting and having a long conversation with Allison Fisher several years ago, and she thought the peace-sign technique was a great idea. In fact, she is using it in one of her product endorsements (see Figure 14 here (http://www.billiardaimtrainer.com/html/using_the_bat.html)). Thanks to wolfdancer for sending me this link. To be clear, I have no financial interest in, nor do I endorse, this product.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Isn't it interesting how some admitted bangers don't seem to care what world champions like Allison think??

(-:

eg8r
02-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Pretty cool.

eg8r

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 01:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I had the pleasure of meeting and having a long conversation with Allison Fisher several years ago, and she thought the peace-sign technique was a great idea. In fact, she is using it in one of her product endorsements (see Figure 14 here (http://www.billiardaimtrainer.com/html/using_the_bat.html)). Thanks to wolfdancer for sending me this link. To be clear, I have no financial interest in, nor do I endorse, this product.<hr /></blockquote>Isn't it interesting how some admitted bangers don't seem to care what world champions like Allison think?? (-: <hr /></blockquote>I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. I agree there are many people out there who don't care about what other people think.

However, there are many people who care about what Allison and other world champions think. That's why companies seek product endorsements from champions.

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-07-2008, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I had the pleasure of meeting and having a long conversation with Allison Fisher several years ago, and she thought the peace-sign technique was a great idea. In fact, she is using it in one of her product endorsements (see Figure 14 here (http://www.billiardaimtrainer.com/html/using_the_bat.html)). Thanks to wolfdancer for sending me this link. To be clear, I have no financial interest in, nor do I endorse, this product.<hr /></blockquote>Isn't it interesting how some admitted bangers don't seem to care what world champions like Allison think?? (-: <hr /></blockquote>I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. I agree there are many people out there who don't care about what other people think.

However, there are many people who care about what Allison and other world champions think. That's why companies seek product endorsements from champions.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry I did not know you and your world champion had a lock on all the "correct" info.

Ah yes, not only do you think you have a lock on the most correct info your world champion can spoon feed you, you like to use old school smiley faces.<hr /></blockquote>

Just having a little fun.
(-:

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>... you think you have a lock on the most correct info your world champion can spoon feed you ...<hr /></blockquote>Are you implying Allison taught me the 30-degree rule and the peace-sign technique? If you are, then expect a follow-up response. If not, then please explain what you are implying.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Just having a little fun.<hr /></blockquote>I don't see how this could be interpreted by anybody as "fun," but I look forward to your explanation.

Dave

eg8r
02-07-2008, 03:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Are you implying Allison taught me the 30-degree rule and the peace-sign technique? <hr /></blockquote> LOL, he is trying to tell you that I am not listening to what Allison is saying. I found his post funny since what is happening is Allison is using your example, so I really should be listening to you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

av84fun
02-07-2008, 04:23 PM
Dave, You stated that Allison bought into your peace sign concept and didn't notice that I was quoting another poster...not myself...who was demeaning what champions think and say.

I was just poking fun at his closed-minded, banal and thread-wrecking posts.

But I am done with that...and with him...as of this post.

Regards,
Jim

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 04:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Are you implying Allison taught me the 30-degree rule and the peace-sign technique?<hr /></blockquote> LOL, he is trying to tell you that I am not listening to what Allison is saying. I found his post funny since what is happening is Allison is using your example, so I really should be listening to you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for clarifying. I'm sorry if I wrongly interpreted any of your statements as possibly insulting to me. Apparently, that was not your intent (I think?).

Regards,
Dave

eg8r
02-07-2008, 04:50 PM
No it was not my intent which is why when I first asked the question about fingers I added at the end that I was not laughing at you. I knew how the post could have been read and I wanted to clear that up.

eg8r

dr_dave
02-07-2008, 04:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> No it was not my intent which is why when I first asked the question about fingers I added at the end that I was not laughing at you. I knew how the post could have been read and I wanted to clear that up.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you again for clarifying. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your "tone" or what you wrote.

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
02-10-2008, 07:56 PM
There are two other rolling ball angle systems that haven't been mentioned yet. In both cases, it's important to remember that the cue ball is rolling smoothly on the cloth -- it is not drawing or stunning or partially sliding.

The first works for nearly full shots. Suppose you are cutting the object ball one degree to the right. The cue ball will go three degrees to the left of its original path. This system works well for up to about 10 degree cut shots.

Another system gives the correct answer for all follow shots but is a little harder to visualize. With practice you can predict the angle of the cue ball within a ball in two or three diamonds of travel. See http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1998-12.pdf for an explanation. There is an easier way to construct the cue ball angle that a student and I discovered recently (and one of the diagrams in that article is not quite right).

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 08:14 PM
Bob,

Thanks for the article link. When I get some time, I'll check out how well the results agree with theoretical cue-ball deflections for the full range of cut angles (TP 3.3 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/TP_3-3.pdf)).

The geometry looks a little complicated. Do you and your students use the techniques shown in the article?

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> There are two other rolling ball angle systems that haven't been mentioned yet. In both cases, it's important to remember that the cue ball is rolling smoothly on the cloth -- it is not drawing or stunning or partially sliding.

The first works for nearly full shots. Suppose you are cutting the object ball one degree to the right. The cue ball will go three degrees to the left of its original path. This system works well for up to about 10 degree cut shots.

Another system gives the correct answer for all follow shots but is a little harder to visualize. With practice you can predict the angle of the cue ball within a ball in two or three diamonds of travel. See http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1998-12.pdf for an explanation. There is an easier way to construct the cue ball angle that a student and I discovered recently (and one of the diagrams in that article is not quite right). <hr /></blockquote>

Bob_Jewett
02-10-2008, 08:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... The geometry looks a little complicated. Do you and your students use the techniques shown in the article? ... <hr /></blockquote>
Yes. As I mentioned, there is a simpler way to construct the follow path that I haven't diagrammed yet. The basic idea is that the tangent of the "penetration" angle is close to 1/4 of the tangent of the approach angle. There are lots of ways to construct this, and the ways shown in the article work but are not so easy. Another problem is that in one of the illustrations, two lines which should be parallel are not.

(The theoretical ratio of tangents should be 2:7 but 2:8 seems to work better and is easier to estimate by halving or doubling distances.)

av84fun
02-11-2008, 02:50 AM
Interesting stuff. Please keep it coming.

But for newer players, visualize the Y and widen out the fork that the CB would travel by about a ball and you have a helpful baseline that will give you an edge on most APA 5s.

Once you get fairly good at predicting the CB baseline path, then study up on the more scientific approaches which will surely yield somewhat more precise results.

Then master the stun shot along the tangent line which is Baseline #2 and is not all that hard to achieve.

Then, spend the rest of your life trying to predict the path assuming backspin at CB impact!

(-:

Jim

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>See http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1998-12.pdf for an explanation. There is an easier way to construct the cue ball angle that a student and I discovered recently (and one of the diagrams in that article is not quite right).<hr /></blockquote>Bob,

Are you willing to share this new method with us? Should we expect to see it in Billiards Digest soon?

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 11:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Then, spend the rest of your life trying to predict the path assuming backspin at CB impact!<hr /></blockquote>Actually, there are some easy-to-apply methods (which also use a modified peace sign) to easily establish useful baselines for draw shots also. See my March '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/march06.pdf) for illustrations and details.

Again, for knowing where the CB will go in all cases, see my where the CB goes (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=258205&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) posting.

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-11-2008, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Then, spend the rest of your life trying to predict the path assuming backspin at CB impact!<hr /></blockquote>Actually, there are some easy-to-apply methods (which also use a modified peace sign) to easily establish useful baselines for draw shots also. See my March '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/march06.pdf) for illustrations and details.

Again, for knowing where the CB will go in all cases, see my where the CB goes (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=258205&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) posting.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave, thanks for the reference to your ALWAYS instructive articles...BUT, as you wisely state in that article, re: trisect system "It is important to remember from last month that the trisect draw system applies only to draw shots with a “typical” amount of draw.

Ask 5 players to shoot a typical draw shot and you will get 6 outcomes! (-:

Have you ever tried what some call the Wagon Wheel drill?

1. Place CB on the centerline between the side pockets.
2. Place an OB 1/2 ball to the left, one diamond off the rail.
3. Place OBs on the 9 diamonds to the left of the side pocket.
4. Pocket the OB and cause the CB to run into each of the 9 OBs...one at a time, of course.

There are 9 shots but a score of TWENTY is not bad at all.

12-13 is TERIFFIC!

Then there is the issue of speed. It is one thing to control the PATH of draw shots and it is another issue to control the distance of roll. Only the most masochistic would add to the Wagon Wheel drill a requirement that you have to hit the OB but only so hard as to move it, say, 1 ball width off the rail!!

So, while there are ways to guesstimate the CB path on draw shots...and yours is EXCELLENT... I stand by my statement that getting in right in game conditions is a life-long adventure!

(-:
Jim

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Then, spend the rest of your life trying to predict the path assuming backspin at CB impact!<hr /></blockquote>Actually, there are some easy-to-apply methods (which also use a modified peace sign) to easily establish useful baselines for draw shots also. See my March '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/march06.pdf) for illustrations and details.

Again, for knowing where the CB will go in all cases, see my where the CB goes (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=258205&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) posting.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave, thanks for the reference to your ALWAYS instructive articles...BUT, as you wisely state in that article, re: trisect system "It is important to remember from last month that the trisect draw system applies only to draw shots with a “typical” amount of draw.

Ask 5 players to shoot a typical draw shot and you will get 6 outcomes! (-:<hr /></blockquote>Good point, but the definition of "typical draw" is well defined and easy to measure with a half-ball hit (per the articles). So each player can easily determing if their "typical draw" is more or less than how "typical draw" is defined in my articles. Regardless, the trisect system is a useful point of reference, from which adjustments can be made based on the amount of draw being used for a given shot. Now, it takes lots of practice and experience to have a feel for how much draw the CB will have for different shots under different conditions. That's the tough part.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Have you ever tried what some call the Wagon Wheel drill?

1. Place CB on the centerline between the side pockets.
2. Place an OB 1/2 ball to the left, one diamond off the rail.
3. Place OBs on the 9 diamonds to the left of the side pocket.
4. Pocket the OB and cause the CB to run into each of the 9 OBs...one at a time, of course.

There are 9 shots but a score of TWENTY is not bad at all.

12-13 is TERIFFIC! <hr /></blockquote>I have tried similar drills, and they are useful for practicing the various CB direction references.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>So, while there are ways to guesstimate the CB path on draw shots...and yours is EXCELLENT... I stand by my statement that getting in right in game conditions is a life-long adventure!<hr /></blockquote>Agreed.

Regards,
Dave

JoeW
02-11-2008, 02:30 PM
av84fun said, "Have you ever tried what some call the Wagon Wheel drill?"

There is another variation here that you all might like for teaching purposes. Set up the wagon wheel slightly modified wherein the OB is in the center of table one diamond off the side pocket and the CB is one ball width off the center line between the side pockets towards the foot of the table.

Using Follow, Stun and Draw determine where you need to hit to move the CB to each diamond.

Lets say that another OB is placed on the center head rail. The place you need to hit the cb to draw back one diamond to the top rail is your "offset for one diamond of draw over a four foot distance."

This type of thinking can also be used to deterine drawing back two diamonds, etc.

The same type of thinking can be used to determine "one diamond of follow" etc. Of course this only works for the particular ball placement but it does give the player a pretty good feel for tip offset positions for different effects.

Notice that I do not need to discuss "tips" of offset because the system is ipsative or relative to you and your usual shooting style.

I have Ted's Wagon Wheel text(bought it many years ago) and have always thought it one of my better texts on learning to play. He never discussed the idea of learning or naming the amount of offset to get to a particular diamond.

av84fun
02-11-2008, 05:12 PM
JoeW [quoteThere is another variation here that you all might like for teaching purposes. Set up the wagon wheel slightly modified wherein the OB is in the center of table one diamond off the side pocket and the CB is one ball width off the center line between the side pockets towards the foot of the table.<hr /></blockquote>

Right. Either method sets up a slight angle on the side pocket shot. The are both fine.

I assume having tried your variation that you agree that it is FRUSTRATING as all get out. It's been a while since I've done it but if memory serves, by best score was an 18 out of a possible 9.

Of course, both speed and tip offset contribute to the CB's path so the number of possible combinations is HUGE. I saw Allison do it in 12 and she has about as much CB path control as anyone walking the earth.

As a prop bet to someone who hadn't been practicing it, I would bet even money against a pro scoring a 13 for some serious cash!

Add a speed limitation...the OB can't rebound off the rail by more than a ball width...and I'd bet against an 18 for MAJOR SERIOUS money!

That's why opined that such control requires a lifetime of practice to even come CLOSE to that range of directional and speed control.

(-:

BigRigTom
02-11-2008, 05:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Av84fun said "...... best score was an 18 out of a possible 9.
<hr /></blockquote>

Does that mean that you had to shoot 18 different times in your attempts to hit each of the 9 balls on the diamonds once each.....assuming that you had to hit some on 1 try that means you had to try 3 or more times on other tries....or am I mis understanding the drill?

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 05:40 PM
I like the follow/draw/English drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/English_drill.pdf) posted here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html).

Check it out,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> av84fun said, "Have you ever tried what some call the Wagon Wheel drill?"

There is another variation here that you all might like for teaching purposes. Set up the wagon wheel slightly modified wherein the OB is in the center of table one diamond off the side pocket and the CB is one ball width off the center line between the side pockets towards the foot of the table.

Using Follow, Stun and Draw determine where you need to hit to move the CB to each diamond.

Lets say that another OB is placed on the center head rail. The place you need to hit the cb to draw back one diamond to the top rail is your "offset for one diamond of draw over a four foot distance."

This type of thinking can also be used to deterine drawing back two diamonds, etc.

The same type of thinking can be used to determine "one diamond of follow" etc. Of course this only works for the particular ball placement but it does give the player a pretty good feel for tip offset positions for different effects.

Notice that I do not need to discuss "tips" of offset because the system is ipsative or relative to you and your usual shooting style.

I have Ted's Wagon Wheel text(bought it many years ago) and have always thought it one of my better texts on learning to play. He never discussed the idea of learning or naming the amount of offset to get to a particular diamond. <hr /></blockquote>

JoeW
02-11-2008, 07:59 PM
I like your drill Dr Dave but I think you guys missed my point, probably because I did not state it well enough. In the drill I outlined the player learns how much draw or follow to use to move the CB one (or more) diamonds forward or back.

I realize that it is a specific shot and that there are an infinite number of cut angles. None-the-less, mastering this shot over several diamonds leaves one with a sense of the amount of draw or follow in a standard situation. This can be generalized to many other shots.

The idea is that I now "know" about how much draw (or follow) to use to get the CB on a particular line (as measured in diamond widths) under one set of circumstances and can use this information to adjust for angle, and power as needed.

It contributes to building a frame of reference based on the distance between diamonds.

I am not sure if Ted cheated the pocket in his drill. In my approach one does not cheat the pocket and the player learns to move the CB as needed through stroking and tip placement.

I read Dr Dave's prior discussion with Fran C and thought that "The pen is mightier than the sword" would have been a good comment. BTW I like the BillyBob's contribution and will get a tatto. The beauty of the revised peace sign is that one can quite easily estimate the 31 - 34 degree angle as needed for a particular cut. Nice work and it should be more widely available.

av84fun
02-11-2008, 08:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Av84fun said "...... best score was an 18 out of a possible 9.
<hr /></blockquote>

You got it right. Try the drill sometime. Once you get past the first 3, it starts to get pretty hard...and after the first 5-6 it gets BRUTAL!

(-:

Does that mean that you had to shoot 18 different times in your attempts to hit each of the 9 balls on the diamonds once each.....assuming that you had to hit some on 1 try that means you had to try 3 or more times on other tries....or am I mis understanding the drill? <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
02-12-2008, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> I like your drill Dr Dave but I think you guys missed my point, probably because I did not state it well enough. In the drill I outlined the player learns how much draw or follow to use to move the CB one (or more) diamonds forward or back.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry about that. I agree that most people can benefit a lot from basic stop/follow/draw drills. I have a good printable drill for this (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stop_follow_draw_drill.pdf) under "drills" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html).

Regards,
Dave