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Gatz83
02-05-2008, 11:31 PM
I am quite curious as to what people mean when someone "hits the cueball" instead of "Stroking the cueball". Just trying to get the feel for both so I know if I have hit the ball bad or good.

Hitting the cueball mean that the person has started his forward stroke way to fast, and looses speed at the point of the impact of the ball, and doesn't go through the cueball nicely?

Stroking the cueball looks like the cueball is not even there, as if the person gets through the cueball quite nicely. Thanks for any help and comments

Reason I bring this up aswell is I have every World pool championship matchs from 1999 to 2006, and a lot of the matches where (steve davis) is commentating on he says a lot the guy "stroked the cueball nicely" or the person missed the ball because he "jabbed at it" or "hit at it rather then stroked it" .

1Time
02-06-2008, 12:01 AM
Bunting a baseball is to poking a cue ball as hitting a baseball with a swing is to stroking a cue ball. You can't shoot a good stick by poking the cue ball any more than you can win baseball games by bunting every at bat. Shooting a good stick requires a stroke.

I'm sure there are better explanations than this, but I think you'd be way better off learning this in person. Someone could demonstrate a poke and a stroke and you may "get it". But the best way to "know" the difference is to develop your stroke.

Can you draw the cue ball? Can you follow? Can you shoot these shots with running English? These shots certainly are not hard to learn IF someone shows you. However, it otherwise can be quite hard, time consuming, and frustrating to learn. It's just way easier if someone shows you.

Gatz83
02-06-2008, 12:08 AM
Thanks for the information, not many people can explain such a question.

Cueless Joey
02-06-2008, 02:58 AM
Set Pause FINISH with speed (1 rail or 2 rail or 3 rail speed )equals stroke.
According to Scott Lee I think.

pooltchr
02-06-2008, 05:20 AM
Part of what we teach in pool school is to focus on the stroke, not on "hitting the ball". When you develop a smooth consistant stroke, the only thought you need is to finish your stroke. If you have set up properly and finish your stroke, the cue ball is going to have no choice but to get out of the way. You will rarely hear us speak of hitting the ball...you will frequently hear us say finish your stroke.
It's a different mindset.
Steve

Gatz83
02-06-2008, 05:45 AM
What do you mean by the cueball is going to get out of the way? With a better stroke the cueball is going to get away quicker and that makes a nicer follow through? not sure what exacley you mean by that comment.

pooltchr
02-06-2008, 06:52 AM
Simply that if you develop a smooth consistant stroke and learn to align yourself to the shot, the only thing you need to think about to stroke the ball is to "finish your stroke". By finishing your stroke, the tip is going to "stroke through" the cue ball, moving it out of the way. In other words, don't think about hitting the cue ball but rather think about finishing your stroke. In the process of doing that, the cue ball will move.
Steve

1Time
02-06-2008, 07:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Set Pause FINISH with speed (1 rail or 2 rail or 3 rail speed )equals stroke.
According to Scott Lee I think. <hr /></blockquote>
Pool players were stroking shots long before anyone thought to set, pause, or finish. And hitting a rail or hitting the cue ball with enough force that it could hit a rail does not define a stroke. For example, a very short, soft shot can be stroked.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Part of what we teach in pool school is to focus on the stroke, not on "hitting the ball". When you develop a smooth consistant stroke, the only thought you need is to finish your stroke. If you have set up properly and finish your stroke, the cue ball is going to have no choice but to get out of the way. You will rarely hear us speak of hitting the ball...you will frequently hear us say finish your stroke.
It's a different mindset.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
No, the thought to finish your stroke is not needed to develop or perform a smooth consistent stroke. And, a mindset, routine, or conscious attempt to "set, pause, or finish" is not required to develop a stroke or stroke the ball. I've shot a good stick for over 20 years without once thinking or hearing anyone advise to "set, pause, or finish" their stroke. And so have countless other pool players.

Although I have heard of "shooting through the cue ball" and "following through the cue ball", this is something I do instead of think. I have no thoughts of words during the performance of my stroke. The follow through or finish is just done as an entirely unfocused on aspect of my stroke. In fact I don't focus on my stroke or any aspect of it at all. Rather, I focus on what it is I am attempting to accomplish. It's like when a golfer or baseball player swings, there are no thoughts to "finish" or "follow through" during the performance of the act.

A higher level of performance of an act is often done without thoughts of words during the act. Prior to the task is when to think in terms of words. Not thinking words while performing a task such as shooting a basketball or stroking a cue ball allows for better performance. Conversely, thinking words while doing so hinders performance.

randyg
02-06-2008, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Set Pause FINISH with speed (1 rail or 2 rail or 3 rail speed )equals stroke.
According to Scott Lee I think. <hr /></blockquote>
Pool players were stroking shots long before anyone thought to set, pause, or finish. And hitting a rail or hitting the cue ball with enough force that it could hit a rail does not define a stroke. For example, a very short, soft shot can be stroked.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Part of what we teach in pool school is to focus on the stroke, not on "hitting the ball". When you develop a smooth consistant stroke, the only thought you need is to finish your stroke. If you have set up properly and finish your stroke, the cue ball is going to have no choice but to get out of the way. You will rarely hear us speak of hitting the ball...you will frequently hear us say finish your stroke.
It's a different mindset.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
No, the thought to finish your stroke is not needed to develop or perform a smooth consistent stroke. And, a mindset, routine, or conscious attempt to "set, pause, or finish" is not required to develop a stroke or stroke the ball. I've shot a good stick for over 20 years without once thinking or hearing anyone advise to "set, pause, or finish" their stroke. And so have countless other pool players.

Although I have heard of "shooting through the cue ball" and "following through the cue ball", this is something I do instead of think. I have no thoughts of words during the performance of my stroke. The follow through or finish is just done as an entirely unfocused on aspect of my stroke. In fact I don't focus on my stroke or any aspect of it at all. Rather, I focus on what it is I am attempting to accomplish. It's like when a golfer or baseball player swings, there are no thoughts to "finish" or "follow through" during the performance of the act.

A higher level of performance of an act is often done without thoughts of words during the act. Prior to the task is when to think in terms of words. Not thinking words while performing a task such as shooting a basketball or stroking a cue ball allows for better performance. Conversely, thinking words while doing so hinders performance. <hr /></blockquote>

SET-PAUSE-FINISH are practice terminology. The motions you practice follow you to the game table, not the words....SPF=randyg

1Time
02-06-2008, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> SET-PAUSE-FINISH are practice terminology. The motions you practice follow you to the game table, not the words....SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the clarification, randyg.

Billy_Bob
02-06-2008, 09:07 AM
There are shots where you want apply draw on the cue ball, follow on the cue ball, stun on the cue ball (CB sliding at OB impact), or english on the cue ball (left/right spin)...

Now you can do everything right so far as hitting the cue ball in the correct spot - high, low, left, right, or a combination of these...

...BUT, if you "poke" or just hit the cue ball instead of using a nice stroke and follow through, then you will not get the desired effect (or "action") on the cue ball after it hits the object ball. So for example...

You hit above center on the cue ball wanting follow and you want the cue ball to continue rolling forward after it contacts the object ball, but you poke and the cue ball dies rather than continuing forward after contacting the OB.

Or you hit the CB below center wanting draw, but you poke and the cue ball dies rather than coming backwards after contacting the OB.

Or you hit the left/right side of the CB wanting left or right spin, but you poke and don't get the spin needed.

A good way to try this out is with a follow practice drill. Stand in front of a short rail. Place The CB in front of you and OB 1 diamond out from the CB and aligned to shoot the OB into one of the far corner pockets.

Now you can shoot this same exact shot, and using follow, leave the CB 1 diamond past where the OB was, CB 2 diamonds past where the OB was, CB between the center pockets, CB to far rail and stop, or if shot aligned slightly off of a straight in shot, you can use a "force follow" shot (lots of follow, hit very high on CB, tons of follow through, and added speed) and get the CB to go up to the far rail, then return to the near rail.

Now if you are trying to get the CB to travel a specific distance (with the above shot) and you poke instead of stroke, then the CB will probably die near where the OB was and not continue forward after contacting the OB.

So say you are playing 8-ball, you have one of your balls left on the table at one end of the table and the 8 at the opposite end of the table just off the short rail center diamond. You can shoot your ball into a far corner pocket (end of table where the 8 is) using follow and get the CB to roll down to the far rail giving you an easy shot on the 8. BUT if you "poke", the CB will stay at your end of the table and you will be left with a bank shot on the 8!

Billy_Bob
02-06-2008, 09:19 AM
Above 8 ball shot was with ball-in-hand...

Sid_Vicious
02-06-2008, 10:36 AM
What's the consensus of Alan Hopkins' stroke, is it a follow through, or mostly a poke???sid

randyg
02-06-2008, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> What's the consensus of Alan Hopkins' stroke, is it a follow through, or mostly a poke???sid <hr /></blockquote>

Technically, if Alan Moves the cueball, he's followed through....SPF=randyg

wolfdancer
02-06-2008, 12:14 PM
that's a pretty good analogy. Trying to compare Alan Hopkin's stroke to Francisco Bustamante's, would be like trying to compare mine with Ron Jeremy's. According to the USMJ though, "penetration, however slight, is enough to complete..."
I used the mental image of trying to have the cue penetrate the CB, to get rid of my poke tendency...in Golf they try to teach you to get rid of the "hit" impulse, and swing as if the ball wasn't there.....
I think another aid if one isn't blessed with a nice long, smooth stroke, would be to envision a punch stroke...good enough to move the CB around on any bar table.

KellyStick
02-06-2008, 12:45 PM
Here's two cents. A good stroke looks and feels effortless and produces tremendous results. For instance a draw shot with stroke rolls back at you seemingly much more than the shot appeared capable of creating. A poke feels jerky, clumsy and takes a lot of effort. The draw does little or nothing. Or if the draw does do something it looks like the shooter had to really put some stuff on the ball to force it to spin backwards. Stroke has elegance. Poke is crude and ugly. Vulcans or Elvenkind would stroke the ball. Klingons or Orcs would poke it.

SKennedy
02-06-2008, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "penetration, however slight, is enough to complete..."

...in Golf they try to teach you to get rid of the "hit" impulse, and swing as if the ball wasn't there.....
<hr /></blockquote>

So, size really doesn't matter after all?

And, I think the point of the golf swing is just like a good stroke. It's like the cue ball is not there (except you must hit it in the correct spot) and follow-through is the result of a good stroke. I'm not hitting the cue ball with my tip so much as I am "throwing" the tip of the cue stick through the cue ball.

wolfdancer
02-06-2008, 01:50 PM
So, size really doesn't matter after all?
in a recent UK study....stiffness matters more, and they have developed an EH test, (EHT)and I believe I'm a level 4.
web page (http://health.msn.com/health-topics/sexual-health/mens-sexual-health/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100167650)

SKennedy
02-06-2008, 05:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> So, size really doesn't matter after all?
in a recent UK study....stiffness matters more, and they have developed an EH test, (EHT)and I believe I'm a level 4.
web page (http://health.msn.com/health-topics/sexual-health/mens-sexual-health/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100167650) <hr /></blockquote>

With my wife of 33+ years I'm less than a 4. However, with my young girlfriend I'm ......just kidding...no girlfriend.

Ralph_Kramden
02-06-2008, 05:02 PM
I think the cue should hit the cueball the same as if it were stroked straight through like it would be if it were connected to a piston. The only body part moving would be the lower arm with just enough wrist action to keep the cue in a straight forward motion.

dr_dave has a video that shows a straight through piston action for experimentation.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M)

Is this "Hitting the CB or Stroking the CB"?

Scott Lee
02-06-2008, 10:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> Stroke has elegance. Poke is crude and ugly. Vulcans or Elvenkind would stroke the ball. Klingons or Orcs would poke it. <hr /></blockquote>

Excellent description Kelly! Check your pm's please!

Scott Lee

1Time
02-07-2008, 12:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> I think the cue should hit the cueball the same as if it were stroked straight through like it would be if it were connected to a piston. The only body part moving would be the lower arm with just enough wrist action to keep the cue in a straight forward motion.
dr_dave has a video that shows a straight through piston action for experimentation.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M)
<hr /></blockquote>
Whether this is what a stroke "should" be depends on how well attempting this works for you. What a stroke should be is what works best for you, regardless.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>
Is this "Hitting the CB or Stroking the CB"? <hr /></blockquote>
According to KellyStick and Scott Lee, whether it is a hit or a stroke is in the eye of the beholder. So if you consider that machine's movement to be elegant, then it is a stroke. And if you consider that machine's movement to be crude and ugly, then it is a hit.

Gatz83
02-07-2008, 12:49 AM
To me that machines hit looks quite nasty lol not very smooth, and silky like to me lol.

That machine looks like it just starts off way to jerky or fast at the begining of the stroke. I like to see a slow start and a fast acceleration and smooth follow through, that to me looks silky and smooth. I just can't seem to do that lol.

1Time
02-07-2008, 02:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gatz83:</font><hr> I like to see a slow start and a fast acceleration and smooth follow through, that to me looks silky and smooth. I just can't seem to do that lol. <hr /></blockquote>
I suggest a heavier cue and a lighter grip may help turn your poke into a stroke. Finding a heavy bar stick and adjusting your grip is all you'd need to give this a try. Another thing you could try that may help is to practice stroke in front of a mirror and watch yourself.

randyg
02-07-2008, 07:28 AM
POOL SCHOOL
Turning POKES into STROKES
SPF=randyg

SKennedy
02-07-2008, 04:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> POOL SCHOOL
Turning POKES into STROKES
SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>

I think the Chicken Ranch reversed that for their adverstising slogan!

Scott Lee
02-08-2008, 03:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> I think the cue should hit the cueball the same as if it were stroked straight through like it would be if it were connected to a piston. The only body part moving would be the lower arm with just enough wrist action to keep the cue in a straight forward motion.
dr_dave has a video that shows a straight through piston action for experimentation.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M)
<hr /></blockquote>
Whether this is what a stroke "should" be depends on how well attempting this works for you. What a stroke should be is what works best for you, regardless.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>
Is this "Hitting the CB or Stroking the CB"? <hr /></blockquote>
According to KellyStick and Scott Lee, whether it is a hit or a stroke is in the eye of the beholder. So if you consider that machine's movement to be elegant, then it is a stroke. And if you consider that machine's movement to be crude and ugly, then it is a hit. <hr /></blockquote>

1Time...Listen, you idiot...don't quote me incorrectly. I don't know where you got the quote about pistons, but it wasn't from anything I posted. Dr. Dave and I don't agree on too many things, so don't put me in his camp either. Lastly, if you ever came to pool school, you might actually learn something about pool...instead of the myths and misconceptions you frequently spout here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 07:19 AM
When you "hit" the cueball, or "poke",your tip is stopping right after it hits the cueball
If your stroking,your tip should continue about 2 inches further
Carol

1Time
02-08-2008, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
1Time...Listen, you idiot...don't quote me incorrectly. I don't know where you got the quote about pistons, but it wasn't from anything I posted. <hr /></blockquote>
You misunderstood. I accurately interpreted what you and KellyStick posted; I did not quote you. KellyStick defined the difference between a stroke and a poke, and you enthusiastically endorsed it. Ralph_Kramden asked whether the machine was using a hit or stroke, and I said, "According to KellyStick and Scott Lee, whether it is a hit or a stroke is in the eye of the beholder. So if you consider that machine's movement to be elegant, then it is a stroke. And if you consider that machine's movement to be crude and ugly, then it is a hit."
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Dr. Dave and I don't agree on too many things, so don't put me in his camp either.<hr /></blockquote>
You misunderstood this as well. I never put you in Dr. Dave's camp. Nothing I posted suggests or implies you agree with Dr. Dave on this or any other matter. And nothing I posted suggests or implies you agree with Ralph_Kramden's opinion that a stroke should be like a piston.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Lastly, if you ever came to pool school, you might actually learn something about pool...instead of the myths and misconceptions you frequently spout here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote>
Well I'm certainly not above learning something new, and I have no bias against pool school; I really know very little about it. Perhaps you could offer me a scholarship? Who knows, maybe I could learn to teach in pool school some day?

However, your claim that I frequently spout myths and misconceptions is completely lacking in any credibility. What myths? What misconceptions? And if you considered anything I posted to be a myth or misconception, why haven't you posted your opinion to that effect? What service to the readers of this board does not posting your disagreement serve? Or, maybe you would rather attendance to pool school be required to learn of your opinions?

And then there's the matter of respect and civility. I would never call you or anyone on this board an idiot or anything of the kind, and that's regardless of how much I may disagree with them. If that's how I can expect to be treated in pool school, you can just keep that scholarship offer. What kind of pool school is this anyway?

Sid_Vicious
02-08-2008, 10:19 AM
"Whether this is what a stroke "should" be depends on how well attempting this works for you. What a stroke should be is what works best for you, regardless"

Here lies the crux of the matter, but also the extension of the confusion. To the observing layman, there are many proficient "odd" strokers of this game. Yet the central concensus touted by the teahing world about stroke seems straight forward and obvious, extend smoothly through the CB. Basically the rule seems to be, there are no rules as long as it workd for you. I know I'm being a smart azz just a little, but those players with their stunted strokes, which by many who view them, are poking as much if not more, than they are stroking.

As far as Carol's analogy about a poke being stopping the tip at the CB upon contact, I have to say that there is a lot of other facets involved other than stopping(if it is even possible to fully put the brakes on for a full stop.) I'd call into this discussion another term, "jabbing the CB." F-ing up a good stroke is done with way too many ways besides the proverbial poke IMO...sid

CarolNYC
02-08-2008, 11:20 AM
Hi Sid,
I find it very hard to describe stroke/poke to someone and tried the simplest way-

[ QUOTE ]
Carol's analogy about a poke being stopping the tip at the CB upon contact, I have to say that there is a lot of other facets involved other than stopping(if it is even possible to fully put the brakes on for a full stop. <hr /></blockquote>
Definitely agree!

[ QUOTE ]
F-ing up a good stroke is done with way too many ways besides the proverbial poke IMO...sid


<hr /></blockquote>

Amen to that,ha ha!

Carol

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> I think the cue should hit the cueball the same as if it were stroked straight through like it would be if it were connected to a piston. The only body part moving would be the lower arm with just enough wrist action to keep the cue in a straight forward motion.

dr_dave has a video that shows a straight through piston action for experimentation.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M)

Is this "Hitting the CB or Stroking the CB"?<hr /></blockquote>The cue-testing machine in the video was designed to have a horizontal piston-stroke to create as much tip-contact-point accuracy as possible, while eliminating swerve as a factor. The machine measures a cue's squirt, without potential corruption of results due to swerve variations caused by changes in ball and cloth conditions, cue elevation, shot speed, and shot distance.

Many humans can be much more consistent with tip-contact point using a pendulum-stroke instead of a piston-stroke. Humans don't always provide the best models for machine design.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Dr. Dave and I don't agree on too many things, so don't put me in his camp either.<hr /></blockquote>Scott, I don't know why you think this. I usually agree with much of what you write. Exceptions I can think of are:

- the significance of throw and spin transfer
- the value of a low-squirt cue
- the definitions of the words "pause" and "stop"
- the possible value of a deliberate "pause" before the final forward stroke.

I still stand by my articles and postings on these topics. When I disagree with you, I try to do so with respect, because I value your contributions to the pool world and this forum.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>dr_dave has a video that shows a straight through piston action for experimentation.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Q50Ffjp9M)<hr /></blockquote>Whether this is what a stroke "should" be depends on how well attempting this works for you. What a stroke should be is what works best for you, regardless.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>
Is this "Hitting the CB or Stroking the CB"?<hr /></blockquote>
According to KellyStick and Scott Lee, whether it is a hit or a stroke is in the eye of the beholder. So if you consider that machine's movement to be elegant, then it is a stroke. And if you consider that machine's movement to be crude and ugly, then it is a hit.<hr /></blockquote>The machine's "stroke" was designed to be accurate and repeatable, not smooth, elegant, or human-like. When mounted on a sturdy surface (e.g., the floor), the machine hits the ball with excellent accuracy and repeatability. Therefore, the machine's "stroke" is quite "excellent."

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-08-2008, 01:57 PM
That was a little, a lot, out of character for Scott to write that.He's normally a pretty easy going, very personable, guy, and a great instructor.
I believe that both he and Dr. Dave are great assets to this board...

randyg
02-08-2008, 06:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> That was a little, a lot, out of character for Scott to write that.He's normally a pretty easy going, very personable, guy, and a great instructor.
I believe that both he and Dr. Dave are great assets to this board... <hr /></blockquote>

I think you are correct. I do know that Scott just came out of some serious surgery, maybe he's a little touchy.

I also hate to be mis-quoted, most of the time I keep my trap shut. Hard to do ometimes.

Wonder why Dr. Dave dosen't understand the meaning of the word "pause"? Hello Dave, what's up with this term?....thanks....SPF=randyg

1Time
02-08-2008, 11:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Many humans can be much more consistent with tip-contact point using a pendulum-stroke instead of a piston-stroke. <hr /></blockquote>
dr_dave makes a good observation here. My stroke is a mix of a pendulum and piston like motion. The interaction between the hand and cue have a lot to do with how pendulum or piston like one's stroke is.

1Time
02-08-2008, 11:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> He's normally a pretty easy going, very personable, guy, and a great instructor. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm sure he is.

1Time
02-09-2008, 03:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> The machine's "stroke" was designed to be accurate and repeatable, not smooth, elegant, or human-like. When mounted on a sturdy surface (e.g., the floor), the machine hits the ball with excellent accuracy and repeatability. Therefore, the machine's "stroke" is quite "excellent." <hr /></blockquote>

For what the machine was designed to do, I'm sure it is excellent. However, if applying the definition offered by Kelly_Stick that Scott Lee enthusiastically endorsed as excellent, I think most would agree the machine hits or pokes. Of course that in no way should discredit what's been done with that machine.

Note to all:
I have neither endorsed nor denounced any definition of a poke / hit or stroke that has been offered in this thread.

dr_dave
02-09-2008, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>Wonder why Dr. Dave dosen't understand the meaning of the word "pause"? Hello Dave, what's up with this term?....thanks....SPF=randyg<hr /></blockquote>Based on the thousands of messages written about the term "pause" over the last few years (see some of the highlights via the links under "stroke - set-pause-finish-freeze" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html)), I think the most precise definition is:

pause: a dead horse beaten to a pulp /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think step 4 in my stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) does a decent job of including most people's definitions of "pause." Please let me know if you have any disagreements or suggestions for improvements (on this or any other part of the document). I prefer to use the term "deliberate pause" when the cue is obviously held motionless for a noticeable amount of time before the final forward stroke.

Regards,
Dave

randyg
02-09-2008, 07:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>Wonder why Dr. Dave dosen't understand the meaning of the word "pause"? Hello Dave, what's up with this term?....thanks....SPF=randyg<hr /></blockquote>Based on the thousands of messages written about the term "pause" over the last few years (see some of the highlights via the links under "stroke - set-pause-finish-freeze" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html)), I think the most precise definition is:

pause: a dead horse beaten to a pulp /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think step 4 in my stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) does a decent job of including most people's definitions of "pause." Please let me know if you have any disagreements or suggestions for improvements (on this or any other part of the document). I prefer to use the term "deliberate pause" when the cue is obviously held motionless for a noticeable amount of time before the final forward stroke.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>


Thanks Dave.

Having "coined" the SPF phrase and being solely responsible for introducing those teaching techniques our Pool School is proud that SPF has now become quite regular terminology.

I have studied your given link and see that you are very close (60%)to our School's teaching principals. While you do not quote us accurately, I can still understand what you are trying to explain. While I dissagree with some of what you state, not a bad job at all...thanks.....SPF=randyg

1Time
02-10-2008, 03:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) <hr /></blockquote>
That document is pretty geeked up if you ask me.

Stretch
02-10-2008, 06:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) <hr /></blockquote>
That document is pretty geeked up if you ask me. <hr /></blockquote>

For me a poke happens when you anticipate the hit on the cue ball. It's like that involuntary flinch when you pull the triggar of a gun anticipating the recoil. In both instances it will spoil the shot. I like the saying "the cue ball gets in the way of a good stroke".

Here's a little tip to help your stroke.

SEE IT= decide on the shot and visualize a perfect outcome. See it happening.
FEEL IT= When your practice strokeing feel for when your body is in agreement with your mind. You will know the perfect instant to exicute the shot. Be sensative to this illusive "go" sign.
TRUST IT= That's your shot, you OWN it, It will happen.

See it, feel it, trust it. Just a little self pep talk for when things start getting a little wonkey and you want to get back into stroke without tinkering too much. St.

Artemus
02-10-2008, 06:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Dr. Dave and I don't agree on too many things, so don't put me in his camp either.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Doesn't sound like Scott rides a Harley with a leather jacket that has Googan colors on it. I applaud you on your forthrightness, Scott. I don't think you were having a bad day at all when you stated this, just a good case of telling it like it is.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dr.Dave:</font><hr>
Scott, I don't know why you think this. I usually agree with much of what you write. Exceptions I can think of are:

- the significance of throw and spin transfer
- the value of a low-squirt cue
- the definitions of the words "pause" and "stop"
- the possible value of a deliberate "pause" before the final forward stroke.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Aren't those 4 points just about EVERYTHING? The "significance of spin and transfer" and "the value of a low-squirt cue" are what "your camp" obsesses about. Ron Shepherd wrote a thesis on it. You've followed suit with robots and additional writings. ALL great players are aware of throw and spin transfer as well as squirt for the last 8 decades. The value of a low squirt cue until Predator came on the scene and deflection neurotics writing about it on forums was nonexistant, and still is for the the best players. They just deal with it and adjust. As for the definitions of pause/stop, who cares?! It wasn't too long ago that another in "your camp" was hounding him incessantly about the "DEFINITION" of a half-ball hit and a half ball aim. If you guys don't have something pigeonholed exactly the way you see fit, you need prescriptions of Ambien to sleep at night.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dr.Dave:</font><hr>
I still stand by my articles and postings on these topics. When I disagree with you, I try to do so with respect, because I value your contributions to the pool world and this forum.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> So how do you think you were disrespected?

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf)<hr /></blockquote>

Having "coined" the SPF phrase and being solely responsible for introducing those teaching techniques our Pool School is proud that SPF has now become quite regular terminology.<hr /></blockquote>You should be very proud on this contribution. It obviously has had a large impact.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>I have studied your given link and see that you are very close (60%)to our School's teaching principals. While you do not quote us accurately, I can still understand what you are trying to explain. While I dissagree with some of what you state, not a bad job at all...thanks.....SPF=randyg<hr /></blockquote>I'm sure various schools, instructors, books, and articles will disagree with various things in the document. My goal was to try to capture most of the conventional wisdom and present it as inclusively as possible, while still presenting the generally accepted "best practices" (from all schools, instructors, books, articles, DVDs, etc.). I will be curious to hear from you and others whether you think anything in the document is inappropriate or inaccurate. I am always trying to improve the document, and I have gotten input from many people and resources.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 11:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) <hr /></blockquote>
That document is pretty geeked up if you ask me.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for that insightful analysis. I'm sure that will help me make the document much better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Dave

Artemus
02-10-2008, 11:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
That document is pretty geeked up if you ask me.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dr.Dave:</font><hr>
Thank you for that insightful analysis.
I'm sure that will help me make the document much better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

If "GEEK" is more appropriate and found acceptable over "GOOGAN", then so be it. It was always generally accepted that GEEKINESS was inherent with GOOGANISM.
(still waiting for Dave to give out a huge belly laugh one of these days and mean it instead of taking himself and everyone else so seriously)

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>So how do you think you were disrespected?<hr /></blockquote>I assume you are directing this question to the people with whom Scott was "communicating" in this thread. I'm not aware of any disrespect from Scott to me in this thread.

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-10-2008, 02:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>So how do you think you were disrespected?<hr /></blockquote>I assume you are directing this question to the people with whom Scott was "communicating" in this thread. I'm not aware of any disrespect from Scott to me in this thread.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

No, actually I was directing it to you and it was based on YOUR post to him which gave the undertone of disrespect from him. You stated the following:

(quote=Dr.Dave)
"Scott, I don't know why you think this. I usually agree with much of what you write. Exceptions I can think of are:

- the significance of throw and spin transfer
- the value of a low-squirt cue
- the definitions of the words "pause" and "stop"
- the possible value of a deliberate "pause" before the final forward stroke.

I still stand by my articles and postings on these topics. When I disagree with you, I try to do so with respect, because I value your contributions to the pool world and this forum." {quote=Dr.Dave)

<font color="red"> You stated "when I disagree with you, I try to do so WITH RESPECT. At the beginning you stated "Scott, I don't know why you think this. I usually agree with much of what you write." Based on the way Scott phrased it, I absolutely DO think you felt like you WERE disrespected otherwise you wouldn't have said it that way. The "hidden meaning" was, 'Scott,I agree with you most of the time and show RESPECT, why am I not getting treated the same way?'

A couple of others came on to smooth out any potential ruffled feathers, including randyg, his good buddy because they may also have interpreted his words as "politically incorrect". My applause for Scott has now turned into a standing ovation, even though I might be an audience of one. Nothing wrong with stating your mind as you see fit. This place is an extension of a pool room, not a love group. </font color>

randyg
02-10-2008, 05:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf)<hr /></blockquote>

Having "coined" the SPF phrase and being solely responsible for introducing those teaching techniques our Pool School is proud that SPF has now become quite regular terminology.<hr /></blockquote>You should be very proud on this contribution. It obviously has had a large impact.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>I have studied your given link and see that you are very close (60%)to our School's teaching principals. While you do not quote us accurately, I can still understand what you are trying to explain. While I dissagree with some of what you state, not a bad job at all...thanks.....SPF=randyg<hr /></blockquote>I'm sure various schools, instructors, books, and articles will disagree with various things in the document. My goal was to try to capture most of the conventional wisdom and present it as inclusively as possible, while still presenting the generally accepted "best practices" (from all schools, instructors, books, articles, DVDs, etc.). I will be curious to hear from you and others whether you think anything in the document is inappropriate or inaccurate. I am always trying to improve the document, and I have gotten input from many people and resources.

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Dave.

I will pm you with some ideas.....SPF=randyg

CarolNYC
02-10-2008, 06:58 PM
Art,
I think you MISINTERPRETED this:

[ QUOTE ]
When I disagree with you, I try to do so with respect, because I value your contributions to the pool world and this forum <hr /></blockquote>
I read this,too, and didnt get that vibe-Dr.Dave has a sense-of-humor- past couple of days we joked around quite ALOT!
And Im asking "why can't you just leave him alone?"
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 07:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr><font color="red"> You stated "when I disagree with you, I try to do so WITH RESPECT. At the beginning you stated "Scott, I don't know why you think this. I usually agree with much of what you write." Based on the way Scott phrased it, I absolutely DO think you felt like you WERE disrespected otherwise you wouldn't have said it that way. The "hidden meaning" was, 'Scott,I agree with you most of the time and show RESPECT, why am I not getting treated the same way?'</font color><hr /></blockquote>I did not think Scott was disrespecting me with his statement in this thread. He has shown much disrespect to me in the past; but hopefully, that is water under the bridge. (BTW, please don't ask me to dredge this past history up, because there is no value in doing so, IMO.) I don't think I ever have, nor I ever will, show disrespect to Scott, because I have a lot of respect for what he does and how he plays.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 07:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf)<hr /></blockquote>

Having "coined" the SPF phrase and being solely responsible for introducing those teaching techniques our Pool School is proud that SPF has now become quite regular terminology.<hr /></blockquote>You should be very proud on this contribution. It obviously has had a large impact.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>I have studied your given link and see that you are very close (60%)to our School's teaching principals. While you do not quote us accurately, I can still understand what you are trying to explain. While I dissagree with some of what you state, not a bad job at all...thanks.....SPF=randyg<hr /></blockquote>I'm sure various schools, instructors, books, and articles will disagree with various things in the document. My goal was to try to capture most of the conventional wisdom and present it as inclusively as possible, while still presenting the generally accepted "best practices" (from all schools, instructors, books, articles, DVDs, etc.). I will be curious to hear from you and others whether you think anything in the document is inappropriate or inaccurate. I am always trying to improve the document, and I have gotten input from many people and resources.

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Dave.

I will pm you with some ideas.....SPF=randyg<hr /></blockquote>Thanks Randy. I look forward to seeing your suggestions. I've learned a lot from you and some of the other top BCA instructors over the years, and I appreciate it. I have often recommend you and your school to people looking for quality instruction.

Regards,
Dave (a big fan of Randy and SPF)

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 07:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Art,
I think you MISINTERPRETED this:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>When I disagree with you, I try to do so with respect, because I value your contributions to the pool world and this forum <hr /></blockquote>
I read this,too, and didnt get that vibe-Dr.Dave has a sense-of-humor- past couple of days we joked around quite ALOT!
And Im asking "why can't you just leave him alone?"
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>Carol,

Thanks for the support.

Have a great week, /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Dave

PS: I will be filming some new high-speed video stuff this week. If there is anything special you want to see, let me know and I will put it at the top of my list as a thanks for all of your positive energy and contributions on the CCB lately.

Artemus
02-11-2008, 06:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Art,
I think you MISINTERPRETED this:

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
When I disagree with you, I try to do so with respect, because I value your contributions to the pool world and this forum <hr /></blockquote>
I read this,too, and didnt get that vibe-Dr.Dave has a sense-of-humor- past couple of days we joked around quite ALOT!
And Im asking "why can't you just leave him alone?"
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Where did THIS come from? It IS the way <font color="red"> I </font color> interpreted it and contrary to what you may think I stand by my post and thoughts. Maybe YOU misinterpreted it.

I think Dave just verified some gunnysacking he might be doing regarding past post exchanges between Scott and himself that weren't always on the positive side. He stated that he wouldn't disrespect Scott, but he feels Scott disrespected him. Here is HIS quoted statement: "He has shown much disrespect to me in the past;"

Even though he wants to lay the issue to rest, I think some of his old feelings surfaced once again. Read further Carol. I'll lay it to rest also, but I'm entitled to my opinion and WILL post to Dave when I think he's off base on something whether you think it's "picking on him" or not. We're big boys and both of us can handle it, mom.

wolfdancer
02-11-2008, 08:52 AM
between Scott and himself ...
AND that's where the issue should have stayed...imo

Artemus
02-11-2008, 09:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> between Scott and himself ...
AND that's where the issue should have stayed...imo
<hr /></blockquote>

Then why didn't YOU follow your own advice and NOT post on this thread earlier regarding their exchange? That was you, otherwise known as Wolfdancer throwing in YOUR 2 cents. Are you also of the opinion that PM's could have been used between Dave and Scott if they preferred it over the open posts??

wolfdancer
02-11-2008, 09:25 AM
you are throwing in your **** .02 on every post...so just stfu up about my posts.

Artemus
02-11-2008, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> you are throwing in your **** .02 on every post...so just stfu up about my posts. <hr /></blockquote>

LMAO...STFU yourself you old coot! It seems like it's alright for YOU, the CONDO COMMANDO and HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION WATCHDOG to make a post but when I do it it's verboten, ACCORDING TO YOU AND YOUR RULES. Wasn't it also YOU that posted, STFU belongs in the NPR and not on the main section?? Would you like me to pull it up? Once again, it's OK for YOU because it's YOUR RULES and YOU'RE the Self-Appointed Forum Police. I'll post wherever I want and YOU can KMA!!

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>Having "coined" the SPF phrase and being solely responsible for introducing those teaching techniques our Pool School is proud that SPF has now become quite regular terminology.<hr /></blockquote>Randy,

FYI, I added your name to the stroke "best practices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) given you appropriate credit for having coined the SPF phrase.

Thanks again,
Dave