PDA

View Full Version : The BEST Shaft Available???



KnockEmDown
02-06-2008, 11:21 AM
I need to replace a shaft and want to get the 'best' one available, at any price.

If you have any facts or unbiased opinions or recommendations about which shaft is the best for a good (hoping to get better) player, I would love to hear it?

As a little background - I have been playing APA 2-3 times a week, for just over 10 years.

I try some mild masse shots and use spin on rail shots, but in general, I want a shaft that will allow me to hit straighter and not deflect as much when using mild english.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

SPetty
02-06-2008, 05:10 PM
IMO http://www.obcues.com

dr_dave
02-06-2008, 05:19 PM
If by "best," you mean "lowest squirt" or "lowest deflection," see the relative comparisons here (https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php).

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KnockEmDown:</font><hr> I need to replace a shaft and want to get the 'best' one available, at any price.

If you have any facts or unbiased opinions or recommendations about which shaft is the best for a good (hoping to get better) player, I would love to hear it?

As a little background - I have been playing APA 2-3 times a week, for just over 10 years.

I try some mild masse shots and use spin on rail shots, but in general, I want a shaft that will allow me to hit straighter and not deflect as much when using mild english.

Thanks in advance for any advice. <hr /></blockquote>

BigRigTom
02-06-2008, 05:43 PM
I know you don't want to hear this but....
It depends... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I like my Viking VX10 with the factory shaft and the LePro Medium Hard tip, tried the Meucci Red Dot for years and gave it up, have since tried the Meucci Black Bulls Eye and again gave it up, tried the Players and it was very whippy like the Meucci Red Dot.

Tried the Predator 314 and just didn't like the feel.

Have never tried the OB-1 but suspect it will be a very different feel to what I am used too...thus ......"It depends!"

You may like all of the above and you may not like any one of them.

You have to decide what feels good to you.

If you are having a particular problem then try a shaft that claims to fix that problem.

If you are just looking to improve your game it probably won't come from the shaft, it will come in some other aspect of your game while you are playing with a cue you really like the feel of.

These are all just my opinions but I have tried a lot of stuff over the years and the most improvement in my game came when I started to realize it was my game that needed fixing and not the equipment I was playing with. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

As the sayings go:
"Some people get the shaft and some people get the butt!"
"What you really need to get is the clue and it is not usually the cue."

Good luck what ever you decide to do. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif
PS: I almost forgot, remember that advise is usually worth just what you paid for it and all the advise above was for NOTHING!

1Time
02-07-2008, 02:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KnockEmDown:</font><hr> I need to replace a shaft and want to get the 'best' one available, at any price.

If you have any facts or unbiased opinions or recommendations about which shaft is the best for a good (hoping to get better) player, I would love to hear it?

As a little background - I have been playing APA 2-3 times a week, for just over 10 years.

I try some mild masse shots and use spin on rail shots, but in general, I want a shaft that will allow me to hit straighter and not deflect as much when using mild english.

Thanks in advance for any advice. <hr /></blockquote>
You will shoot straighter if you flatten out your cue's tip so its profile is quarter shaped or slightly flatter. If the cue's current tip can be made flatter with a nickel shaper tool, use it first to shape the tip. Then to shape it to a quarter shape or flatter, turn your cue upside down and repeatedly tap its tip on a smooth, hard floor while you slowly turn the cue. This will make the tip slightly harder which also will help you shoot straighter, but much less so than the flatter shape of the tip.

Unless you are sure your current shaft is not working for you, I suggest first reshaping the tip. And if that doesn't do it for you, I suggest replacing the tip with a medium-hard tip like a Le-Pro or Talisman and shape it quarter shaped or slightly flatter. Even if you go ahead and buy the new shaft, you can still shape its new tip to a flatter shape. But I don't suggest you do this before trying out the new tip for a while to see how well it works for you.

pooltchr
02-07-2008, 06:22 AM
I'm afraid I must disagree. A flat tip will not make you shoot straighter. Learning to move the cue stick forward in a straight line consistantly will help you shoot straighter. Changing the shape of the tip only means you will need to re-learn where the precise contact point will be when you are hitting anything other than pure center.
Steve

randyg
02-07-2008, 07:26 AM
Arrow vs Indian.....SPF=randyg

1Time
02-07-2008, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I'm afraid I must disagree. A flat tip will not make you shoot straighter. <hr /></blockquote>
While I did not suggest a flat tip, a tip that is as round as a quarter or slightly flatter will move the cue ball closer to a straight line when English is applied than a tip that is more rounded like a nickel or dime. The reason for this is similar to why a larger diameter tip will do the same thing as compared to a smaller diameter tip. And, a lower deflection shaft will do the same when compared to a shaft that deflects more.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Learning to move the cue stick forward in a straight line consistantly will help you shoot straighter.<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, this is true. And, it is more important to learn to move the cue stick forward in a straight line on a vertical axis than it is to do so on a horizontal axis. Meaning, some up and down movement in the cue is less potentially detrimental than some side to side movement.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Changing the shape of the tip only means you will need to re-learn where the precise contact point will be when you are hitting anything other than pure center.<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, relearning the contact point is a must, but not the only. You also have to relearn how you visualize the shot because the cue ball will travel along a different path than before and it will do so for various speeds of shots. The tip used, its shape, and the shaft's deflection characteristics affect the contact point on the cue ball and its resulting path more than any other aspect of the cue stick.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Arrow vs Indian.....SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>
The exact same pool cue used alternatively by a beginner and an expert pool player will exibit the same shooting characteristics. It must since it is the same pool cue. Of course how well each player uses this cue and the results each produces with it would be very different (arrow vs Indian).

SKennedy
02-07-2008, 12:54 PM
See what I mean about these guys willing to help on a legitimate issue about pool? Glad they are helpful and didn't make me out to be a liar.
Thanks guys!
Again, I'm a dunce when it comes to equipment issues. I can't tell you the benefits of a soft vs hard tip, etc. I have some guesses on pros and cons, but that is all. All I know about shafts can be summed up real quickly..."I hope I don't get shafted again!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BLACKHEART
02-07-2008, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> See what I mean about these guys willing to help on a legitimate issue about pool? Glad they are helpful and didn't make me out to be a liar.
Thanks guys!
Again, I'm a dunce when it comes to equipment issues. I can't tell you the benefits of a soft vs hard tip, etc. I have some guesses on pros and cons, but that is all. All I know about shafts can be summed up real quickly..."I hope I don't get shafted again!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The problem you are encountering is that a very short while ago, one of these posters was asking questions, as a beginner &amp; now he seems to be some kind of expert. You get OPINIONS, but not much fact to back anything up. The flatter tip theiry went out of favor, in the 50's when it was proved that a round object (like a ball) hit by a round object (like a tip) meet at only one point. The two rounded objects will always have a contact point. Whereas a flat tip will SLID off of the rounded ball, on off center hits. Just use some common sence &amp; don't believe everyone knows what the hell they are talking about. JUST MY OPINION &amp; 52 years of playing experience along with 22 years of building pool cues...JER

SKennedy
02-07-2008, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> See what I mean about these guys willing to help on a legitimate issue about pool? Glad they are helpful and didn't make me out to be a liar.
Thanks guys!
Again, I'm a dunce when it comes to equipment issues. I can't tell you the benefits of a soft vs hard tip, etc. I have some guesses on pros and cons, but that is all. All I know about shafts can be summed up real quickly..."I hope I don't get shafted again!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The problem you are encountering is that a very short while ago, one of these posters was asking questions, as a beginner &amp; now he seems to be some kind of expert. You get OPINIONS, but not much fact to back anything up. The flatter tip theiry went out of favor, in the 50's when it was proved that a round object (like a ball) hit by a round object (like a tip) meet at only one point. The two rounded objects will always have a contact point. Whereas a flat tip will SLID off of the rounded ball, on off center hits. Just use some common sence &amp; don't believe everyone knows what the hell they are talking about. JUST MY OPINION &amp; 52 years of playing experience along with 22 years of building pool cues...JER <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not having any problems with posters, etc. You may be misinterpreting my post...., which was really meant for the original poster and their question.
And yes, I agree that all of us don't know everything and I know very little. I do have my opinions based upon my limited knowledge and experience. For example, I would never use a flat tip, nor would I encourage a novice to use one. A nickel radius is as flat as I'll get. Most of you guys are much better than I am on the table so I always listen. However, I also don't think I'm the lowest skilled player in this "league." It's just like being in a local pool hall. Some guy has been playing a total of 6 months and can beat his other 18 y/o buddies on the bar boxes and now he's ready for the road...and he's willing to share his knowledge with you....not to help you, but just to let you know just how smart and good he really is.

bluey2king
02-07-2008, 10:56 PM
Howdy Dr. Dave
I am considering a new shaft or cue. Have you tested the new Lucasi Hybrid. They have a lot of claims but I wonder if their cue with the stock shaft is as good as a regular Lucasi with a nice shaft like a Predator or a OB1.
Any info would be nice
Thanks
I have been reading your articles in BD
Keep up the good work
Bluey

dr_dave
02-08-2008, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> Howdy Dr. Dave
I am considering a new shaft or cue. Have you tested the new Lucasi Hybrid. They have a lot of claims but I wonder if their cue with the stock shaft is as good as a regular Lucasi with a nice shaft like a Predator or a OB1.
Any info would be nice
Thanks
I have been reading your articles in BD
Keep up the good work
Bluey <hr /></blockquote>Concerning squirt, only the shaft matters! The butt and joint will affect the "feel" and "sound" of the cue, but they won't affect the amount of squirt. As the Platinum Billiards data (https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php) shows, the Lucasi shaft has much more squirt than the low squirt shafts (Predator, OB-1, etc.).

Regards,
Dave

1Time
02-09-2008, 01:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>
The flatter tip theiry went out of favor, in the 50's<hr /></blockquote>
Whatever theory you're referring to is irrelevant. What I posted earlier about using a tip rounded like the shape of a quarter or a little flatter is true and it applicable to the OP. I will be glad to explain why my previous statements on this matter are true if you or anyone posts their interest for the same.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>when it was proved that a round object (like a ball) hit by a round object (like a tip) meet at only one point. The two rounded objects will always have a contact point.<hr /></blockquote>
The fact that round objects contact at one point is irrelevant, and the number of points of contact between a cue ball and tip is not at issue. You must have your theories mixed up or something because it's ridiculous to suggest people prior to the 50's didn't know two round objects contact at one point.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>Whereas a flat tip will SLID off of the rounded ball, on off center hits. <hr /></blockquote>
This is irrelevant as well since no one suggested the use of a flat tip.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>Just use some common sence &amp; don't believe everyone knows what the hell they are talking about. JUST MY OPINION &amp; 52 years of playing experience along with 22 years of building pool cues...JER <hr /></blockquote>
I'm sure you make some fine custom cues, BLACKHEART, and I respect your experience, your participation on this board, and your contributions to the sport. However, you've posted nothing here that refutes what I've posted about using a tip shaped like a quarter or a little flatter.

Artemus
02-10-2008, 07:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> Howdy Dr. Dave
I am considering a new shaft or cue. Have you tested the new Lucasi Hybrid. They have a lot of claims but I wonder if their cue with the stock shaft is as good as a regular Lucasi with a nice shaft like a Predator or a OB1.
Any info would be nice
Thanks
I have been reading your articles in BD
Keep up the good work
Bluey <hr /></blockquote>Concerning squirt, only the shaft matters! The butt and joint will affect the "feel" and "sound" of the cue, but they won't affect the amount of squirt. As the Platinum Billiards data (https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php) shows, the Lucasi shaft has much more squirt than the low squirt shafts (Predator, OB-1, etc.).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Yo, Dave, maybe you should do your research first before throwing out misinformation. It's a different shaft that's made for the hybrid cue. Do you know who makes the Universal Smart Shaft and distributes them?? (one of the lower squirt shafts out there) It happens to be Cue and Case, the same company that produces the Lucasi line, although they didn't invent the Universal Smart Shaft. Do you know who did? Do you also know who is involved in making the Predator shaft?

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> Howdy Dr. Dave
I am considering a new shaft or cue. Have you tested the new Lucasi Hybrid. They have a lot of claims but I wonder if their cue with the stock shaft is as good as a regular Lucasi with a nice shaft like a Predator or a OB1.
Any info would be nice
Thanks
I have been reading your articles in BD
Keep up the good work
Bluey <hr /></blockquote>Concerning squirt, only the shaft matters! The butt and joint will affect the "feel" and "sound" of the cue, but they won't affect the amount of squirt. As the Platinum Billiards data (https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php) shows, the Lucasi shaft has much more squirt than the low squirt shafts (Predator, OB-1, etc.).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Yo, Dave, maybe you should do your research first before throwing out misinformation. It's a different shaft that's made for the hybrid cue. Do you know who makes the Universal Smart Shaft and distributes them?? (one of the lower squirt shafts out there) It happens to be Cue and Case, the same company that produces the Lucasi line, although they didn't invent the Universal Smart Shaft. Do you know who did? Do you also know who is involved in making the Predator shaft? <hr /></blockquote>The data I cited is not mine ... it is Platinum Billiards' data (https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php). I don't know which Lucasi model they tested. You will need to ask them. What I do know is if a cue has a Universal Smart Shaft (or Predator or OB-1 or other low-squirt shaft), the cue will have low squirt (regardless of the brand or model of the butt).

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-10-2008, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> The data I cited is not mine ... it is Platinum Billiards' data (https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php). I don't know which Lucasi model they tested. You will need to ask them. What I do know is if a cue has a Universal Smart Shaft (or Predator or OB-1 or other low-squirt shaft), the cue will have low squirt (regardless of the brand or model of the butt).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I don't have to ask them, you need to ask before claiming that the Lucasi shaft listed on their website covers all of their cues, including the Hybrid. What they have listed is for the Lucasi line of cues but NOT the hybrid and the hybrid shaft is different. The Hybrid falls in a different category and they HAVE NOT tested it.

But what I KNOW is that all of those shafts, the Universal Smart Shaft, Predator, OB-1 and all the rest of them will still play DIFFERENTLY on any given butt or even the same butt unless weight changes are made in the hands of a human being instead of a robot. Maybe the squirt will be low, but more shots can be MISSED for other reasons besides squirt, and probably even more shots than the original shaft it was replacing unless it was a total POS.
Low squirt shafts are NOT a panacea for guaranteed improved play.

You never answered the other questions. Who produces the Predator shaft line, the Universal shaft line (forget that because I already told you, and who invented the Universal shaft?

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>what I KNOW is that all of those shafts, the Universal Smart Shaft, Predator, OB-1 and all the rest of them will still play DIFFERENTLY on any given butt or even the same butt unless weight changes are made in the hands of a human being<hr /></blockquote>Agreed, depending on what you mean by "play differently."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>shots can be MISSED for other reasons besides squirt<hr /></blockquote>Agreed.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Low squirt shafts are NOT a panacea for guaranteed improved play.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed (per my recent posting (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265762&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) and articles (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html) on this topic).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>You never answered the other questions. Who produces the Predator shaft line, the Universal shaft line (forget that because I already told you, and who invented the Universal shaft?<hr /></blockquote>I think "Predator" invented and designed the "Predator" shafts, but I would guess (but I don't know for sure) the cues are made in China, like many other high-volume production cues.

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-10-2008, 02:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>what I KNOW is that all of those shafts, the Universal Smart Shaft, Predator, OB-1 and all the rest of them will still play DIFFERENTLY on any given butt or even the same butt unless weight changes are made in the hands of a human being

[/quote=Dr.Dave]Agreed, depending on what you mean by "play differently."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>What I mean is they'll ALL feel differently, weigh and balance differently, and make the player using it "play differently" because it's entirely foreign to what he/she is used to stroking. Sometimes the player can be more accurate on certain shots and at other times will play worse due to other factors and characteristics of the shaft/tip size and NEVER get used to it even if it does squirt less. When a CUE "plays differently" it's pool room jargon, not classroom jargon.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>You never answered the other questions. Who produces the Predator shaft line, the Universal shaft line (forget that because I already told you, and who invented the Universal shaft?

[/quote=Dr.Dave]I think "Predator" invented and designed the "Predator" shafts, but I would guess (but I don't know for sure) the cues are made in China, like many other high-volume production cues.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> I didn't ask who invented the Predator shaft. Fact is, I don't know who invented the Predator shaft but there wasn't a "Predator" company or anything before an individual came up with the idea and then formed Predator. What I can tell you is that Cue and Case with Jim Lucas as the head of that company, hence LUCASI named after him, also has a strong tie in with Predator and the Universal Smart Shaft which are all made pretty much at the same spot (in China). Cue and Case is also the PRIMARY distributor. So, whatever someone buys doesn't matter at all. Bill Stroud invented or created the Universal Smart shaft. He was originally with Dan Janes when they started Joss and then branching off on his own to make Joss WEST cues. <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 07:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>What I mean is they'll ALL feel differently, weigh and balance differently, and make the player using it "play differently" because it's entirely foreign to what he/she is used to stroking. Sometimes the player can be more accurate on certain shots and at other times will play worse due to other factors and characteristics of the shaft/tip size and NEVER get used to it even if it does squirt less. When a CUE "plays differently" it's pool room jargon, not classroom jargon.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for your excellent classroom-like definition ... very clear. I always ask people what they mean when they say: "a cue plays better" or "I like the feel." I usually respond: "It doesn't play better ... you just play better with it, because that's what you are used to." I think it is more a matter of what is familiar, instead of whether or not the cue is actually "better." It seems to me most top players can make any cue "play" well, as long as the cue has a decent tip and the player has time to adjust to a new "feel" (and different amount of squirt) if necessary.

Regards,
Dave

pooltchr
02-11-2008, 05:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ]Thank you for your excellent classroom-like definition ... very clear. I always ask people what they mean when they say: "a cue plays better" or "I like the feel." I usually respond: "It doesn't play better ... you just play better with it, because that's what you are used to." I think it is more a matter of what is familiar, instead of whether or not the cue is actually "better." It seems to me most top players can make any cue "play" well, as long as the cue has a decent tip and the player has time to adjust to a new "feel" (and different amount of squirt) if necessary.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Very good post!
Steve

Artemus
02-11-2008, 07:01 AM
Dave, now I'm starting to question myself on my response.
Why wouldn't the cue PLAY differently? IT DOES!

Predator, Meucci, and now you have built robots to test squirt. The robot is built in such a way that it has a 100% repeatable stroke. (I think, correct?) Therefore, if the ROBOT arm stroking it is exactly the same for ALL CUES and isn't affected by weight and balance changes, isn't affected by tempo and timing issues like the human hand with it's complex nervous system and fast/slow twitch muscles firing differently, then the only thing that causes more or less squirt is THE CUE, which plays differently.

At this point and time of technology development regarding pool cues, maybe there haven't been enough robots built or other electronic devices that measure SHAFT FLEX and it's effects on shots, harmonics and vibrations which give negative feedback to various players and cause them to stroke differently, shaft taper that doesn't fit right in the closed bridge of larger or smaller fingers and cause the stroke to go off line, and there's always the issue that can't seem to be resolved about more spin/less spin on english shots or draw between certain cues and others despite some of the best math formulas that can be drawn up. The best pros and players out there will swear differences between cues and ball action.

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ]Thank you for your excellent classroom-like definition ... very clear. I always ask people what they mean when they say: "a cue plays better" or "I like the feel." I usually respond: "It doesn't play better ... you just play better with it, because that's what you are used to." I think it is more a matter of what is familiar, instead of whether or not the cue is actually "better." It seems to me most top players can make any cue "play" well, as long as the cue has a decent tip and the player has time to adjust to a new "feel" (and different amount of squirt) if necessary.<hr /></blockquote>Very good post!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>Thanks, Steve.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Predator, Meucci, and now you have built robots to test squirt. The robot is built in such a way that it has a 100% repeatable stroke. (I think, correct?) Therefore, if the ROBOT arm stroking it is exactly the same for ALL CUES and isn't affected by weight and balance changes, isn't affected by tempo and timing issues like the human hand with it's complex nervous system and fast/slow twitch muscles firing differently, then the only thing that causes more or less squirt is THE CUE, which plays differently.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed. A cue with a different amount of squirt (as measurable by a cue-squirt-testing machine) will "play differently."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>At this point and time of technology development regarding pool cues, maybe there haven't been enough robots built or other electronic devices that measure SHAFT FLEX and it's effects on shots, harmonics and vibrations which give negative feedback to various players and cause them to stroke differently, shaft taper that doesn't fit right in the closed bridge of larger or smaller fingers and cause the stroke to go off line, and there's always the issue that can't seem to be resolved about more spin/less spin on english shots or draw between certain cues and others despite some of the best math formulas that can be drawn up. The best pros and players out there will swear differences between cues and ball action.<hr /></blockquote>There are many physical and psychological factors that determine how a cue "feels" and "plays" for different players. I have some vibration and sound tests planned to try to quantify some of the physical factors related to stiffness, shock, and vibration, but it is difficult to measure the psychological factors (without doing extensive surveys of many players with many cues).

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-11-2008, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Predator, Meucci, and now you have built robots to test squirt. The robot is built in such a way that it has a 100% repeatable stroke. (I think, correct?) Therefore, if the ROBOT arm stroking it is exactly the same for ALL CUES and isn't affected by weight and balance changes, isn't affected by tempo and timing issues like the human hand with it's complex nervous system and fast/slow twitch muscles firing differently, then the only thing that causes more or less squirt is THE CUE, which plays differently.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed. A cue with a different amount of squirt (as measurable by a cue-squirt-testing machine) will "play differently."

<font color="red"> OK, a cue WILL "play differently" regarding squirt. So, isn't it possible that a cue will "play differently" in OTHER areas also? Why would it be confined to just one factor, squirt? It's almost like saying that humans are the one and ONLY form of intelligent life in the entire universe. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>At this point and time of technology development regarding pool cues, maybe there haven't been enough robots built or other electronic devices that measure SHAFT FLEX and it's effects on shots, harmonics and vibrations which give negative feedback to various players and cause them to stroke differently, shaft taper that doesn't fit right in the closed bridge of larger or smaller fingers and cause the stroke to go off line, and there's always the issue that can't seem to be resolved about more spin/less spin on english shots or draw between certain cues and others despite some of the best math formulas that can be drawn up. The best pros and players out there will swear differences between cues and ball action.<hr /></blockquote>There are many physical and psychological factors that determine how a cue "feels" and "plays" for different players. I have some vibration and sound tests planned to try to quantify some of the physical factors related to stiffness, shock, and vibration, but it is difficult to measure the psychological factors (without doing extensive surveys of many players with many cues).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Lets forget about the psychological part of how a cue plays or how a player plays with a specific cue. Lets forget about pool. Do you think a GOLF CLUB (driver) can play differently from one manufacturer's brand to another or with modifications to the shaft?? Or would that be psychological? </font color>

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>OK, a cue WILL "play differently" regarding squirt. So, isn't it possible that a cue will "play differently" in OTHER areas also? Why would it be confined to just one factor, squirt?<hr /></blockquote>Agreed, but until I see measurable difference in performance from other factors, I won't be convinced the effect is purely physical. For example, some people don't like the feel of a cue when it vibrates after a shot, but the CB is long gone before this vibration occurs, so the vibration doesn't affect how the cue "plays" even though it does affect how the cue feels. If a player doesn't like the "feel" and "feedback," they might not play as well with that cue, even if the cue sends the CB where the player was aiming, with the speed and amount of spin desired. Now, for a player to play well with a cue, there are many important factors. The cue must have a comfortable weight, balance, and weight distribution, have a good tip, and have the amount of squirt one expects. It must also be acceptable to the player in other ways (e.g., it "feels" and "sounds" good when you hit the CB, which is related to stifness, type of joint, and butt and shaft design). So I agree with you that many physical characteristics affect how a cue "plays" to different individuals.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Lets forget about the psychological part of how a cue plays or how a player plays with a specific cue. Lets forget about pool. Do you think a GOLF CLUB (driver) can play differently from one manufacturer's brand to another or with modifications to the shaft?? Or would that be psychological?<hr /></blockquote>I don't know that much about golf clubs, but I do know the physics involved is much more complicated than with pool, so I would expect there to be many more important physical parameters and characteristics in golf club design and selection.

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-11-2008, 12:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>OK, a cue WILL "play differently" regarding squirt. So, isn't it possible that a cue will "play differently" in OTHER areas also? Why would it be confined to just one factor, squirt?<hr /></blockquote>Agreed, but until I see measurable difference in performance from other factors, I won't be convinced the effect is purely physical.

<font color="red"> I think you CAN get measurable differences from other physical factors but you won't be able to quantify it with a robot like you can with squirt. For instance, take the physical factor of a fairly large butt vs. a fairly thin butt. A clamp on a robot won't matter because it'll adjust and still swing the same way. The size of a player's hand won't adapt the same way and could cause all kinds of problems that can't be overcome with time or assistance from JoeW. The same thing can be said for the thickness of the shaft taper, where the taper starts, the gradation of the taper, and where the taper ends. Sure, a player will play differently with these modifications, but it's THE CUE itself that's playing differently and causing him to miss, just like squirt. Like Johnny Cochran said, "If the glove doesn't fit...you'll play like s**t!" (wait a minute, that's not quite what he said but you should get the idea)</font color>

<hr /></blockquote>I don't know that much about golf clubs, but I do know the physics involved is much more complicated than with pool, so I would expect there to be many more important physical parameters and characteristics in golf club design and selection.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> It doesn't matter whether you know golf clubs or not. You're a mechanical engineer. The same things apply to a golf club as a pool cue. And I'll answer the question I asked you earlier. YES!! Golf clubs DO play differently from one to another which isn't psychological, just "feel" based, or subjective. Their industry is much further advanced in quantifying ALL of the factors with robot testing, computer programs, and even "human testing". (shudder the thought) All of those areas of testing clearly show that "clubs play differently" even in the grasp of a robot. If a golf club can and DOES play differently, why not a pool cue?</font color>

Scott Lee
02-11-2008, 01:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote KnockEmDown:</font><hr> I need to replace a shaft and want to get the 'best' one available, at any price.

If you have any facts or unbiased opinions or recommendations about which shaft is the best for a good (hoping to get better) player, I would love to hear it?

As a little background - I have been playing APA 2-3 times a week, for just over 10 years.

I try some mild masse shots and use spin on rail shots, but in general, I want a shaft that will allow me to hit straighter and not deflect as much when using mild english.

Thanks in advance for any advice. <hr /></blockquote>
You will shoot straighter if you flatten out your cue's tip so its profile is quarter shaped or slightly flatter. If the cue's current tip can be made flatter with a nickel shaper tool, use it first to shape the tip. Then to shape it to a quarter shape or flatter, turn your cue upside down and repeatedly tap its tip on a smooth, hard floor while you slowly turn the cue. This will make the tip slightly harder which also will help you shoot straighter, but much less so than the flatter shape of the tip.

Unless you are sure your current shaft is not working for you, I suggest first reshaping the tip. And if that doesn't do it for you, I suggest replacing the tip with a medium-hard tip like a Le-Pro or Talisman and shape it quarter shaped or slightly flatter. Even if you go ahead and buy the new shaft, you can still shape its new tip to a flatter shape. But I don't suggest you do this before trying out the new tip for a while to see how well it works for you. <hr /></blockquote>

1Time...See? This is what I meant when I said, in another thread, that you post mythology here as verbatim fact. Neither the shape of the tip, or the hardness, has ANY bearing on shooting straighter. The only important thing is how well you can move the cuestick in a straight line, through your aim point on the CB.

Scott Lee

Bambu
02-11-2008, 08:43 PM
Nickel radius, or dime shaped tips? I have seen this written in many places, but still cant figure it out. I dont see the big difference between them. And I have tried both shapes, assuming one is just flatter than the other. After putzing around with both, I still like the plain old out-of-the-box type shape(not too flat, not too round). Some people insist a flatter tip will draw better, but I dont see it. Am I missing something?

dr_dave
02-11-2008, 10:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>The same things apply to a golf club as a pool cue.<hr /></blockquote>Not true. The physics of a golf swing and club reaction is much more complicated than the physics of a pool stroke and cue reaction.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>And I'll answer the question I asked you earlier. YES!! Golf clubs DO play differently from one to another<hr /></blockquote>No disagreements here. I also agree with you that pool cues can "play" differently due to several physical factors (weight, balance, length, moment of inertia, tip friction, squirt, shaft taper when using a closed bridge, type of butt wrap, butt diameter, etc.). There are also many physical factors that affect how a cue "feels" (stiffness, impact transmission, vibrational characteristics, impact sounds, joint material and type, energy absorption inserts or cores, type of wood and construction, etc.).

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-12-2008, 06:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>The same things apply to a golf club as a pool cue.<hr /></blockquote>Not true. The physics of a golf swing and club reaction is much more complicated than the physics of a pool stroke and cue reaction.

<font color="red"> Yes, I definitely agree with you about the complexity of the swing and club reaction. However, there are still a good number of similarities that affect the playability of the club/cue than initial thoughts might lead. Both have a shaft and the shaft is really the engine that drives the vehicle. Flex is extremely important in a golf shaft regarding desired results along with torque,(not in a cue), and flex point or bend point. Virtually NO detailed studies have been done regarding the flex of a pool shaft on playing results, yet it always comes up in conversations among players regarding likes and dislikes.
Flex DOES affect feel as you stated, but in a golf shaft it ALSO produces DIFFERENT RESULTS. Nothing about this has been proven regarding a cue shaft primarily because NO ONE has done any kind of in depth study. It's ALL THEORY and blackboard math that's applied and says it doesn't matter. SHOW ME THE TESTS, and I don't care how they're done, with robots or humans.

The weight of a golf shaft/head and cue shaft/butt along with the distribution of the weight plays an integral role in playing characteristics of both. Some golf shaft companies also alter the taper and size of their shafts, as do cuemakers.

MOI measurements come into play on both of them, but moreso in golf. Optimum mass/weight and velocity is vital in a golf club to produce maximum swing speed or dispersion patterns as it is in finding the correct break or playing cue for any given player.

The size of the grip in a golf club or butt in a pool cue can make all the difference in the world to a player as far as how they "release" the implement during the swing/stroke as they arrive at impact.

In golf as well as pool you can back weight them, forward weight them, or have more of a balanced sensation depending on how and where you do different things to the components.

These are all areas of study that a mechanical engineer has gone through and knows and you certainly have. As I've said previously, the pool industry is in the dark ages compared to the golf industry when it comes to equipment or computer programs for MEASURING all of the playing characteristics of the clubs/cues and what those characteristics mean regarding results. What does the pool industry have? They have rudimentary robots made out of tin cans and some bolts to measure squirt and that's it! On top of it, NONE of them come up with the same math or results!
</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>And I'll answer the question I asked you earlier. YES!! Golf clubs DO play differently from one to another<hr /></blockquote>No disagreements here. I also agree with you that pool cues can "play" differently due to several physical factors (weight, balance, length, moment of inertia, tip friction, squirt, shaft taper when using a closed bridge, type of butt wrap, butt diameter, etc.). There are also many physical factors that affect how a cue "feels" (stiffness, impact transmission, vibrational characteristics, impact sounds, joint material and type, energy absorption inserts or cores, type of wood and construction, etc.).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Just because we're somewhat in agreement, and all of the factors for "playability" and "feel" are in both a golf club and pool cue, don't EVEN THINK about inviting me for a possible induction into the club to have me wear a leather jacket with the "colors" on it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

CarolNYC
02-12-2008, 07:13 AM
Way to go,DAD!Thats what Im talking about /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I definitely agree with you about the complexity of the swing and club reaction. However, there are still a good number of similarities that affect the playability of the club/cue than initial thoughts might lead. Both have a shaft and the shaft is really the engine that drives the vehicle. Flex is extremely important in a golf shaft regarding desired results along with torque,(not in a cue), and flex point or bend point. Virtually NO detailed studies have been done regarding the flex of a pool shaft on playing results, yet it always comes up in conversations among players regarding likes and dislikes.
Flex DOES affect feel as you stated, but in a golf shaft it ALSO produces DIFFERENT RESULTS. Nothing about this has been proven regarding a cue shaft primarily because NO ONE has done any kind of in depth study. It's ALL THEORY and blackboard math that's applied and says it doesn't matter. SHOW ME THE TESTS, and I don't care how they're done, with robots or humans.

The weight of a golf shaft and cue shaft along with the distribution of the weight plays an integral role in playing characteristics of both. Some golf shaft companies also alter the taper and size of their shafts, as do cuemakers.

MOI measurements come into play on both of them, but moreso in golf. Optimum mass/weight and velocity is vital in a golf club to produce maximum swing speed or dispersion patterns as it is in finding the correct break or playing cue for any given player.

The size of the grip in a golf club or butt in a pool cue can make all the difference in the world to a player as far as how they "release" the implement during the swing/stroke as they arrive at impact.

In golf as well as pool you can back weight them, forward weight them, or have more of a balanced sensation depending on how and where you do different things to the components.

These are all areas of study that a mechanical engineer has gone through and knows and you certainly have. As I've said previously, the pool industry is in the dark ages compared to the golf industry when it comes to equipment or computer programs for MEASURING all of the playing characteristics of the clubs/cues and what those characteristics mean regarding results. What does the pool industry have? They have rudimentary robots made out of tin cans and some bolts to measure squirt and that's it! On top of it, NONE of them come up with the same math or results!



Quote Artemus:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I'll answer the question I asked you earlier. YES!! Golf clubs DO play differently from one to another
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No disagreements here. I also agree with you that pool cues can "play" differently due to several physical factors (weight, balance, length, moment of inertia, tip friction, squirt, shaft taper when using a closed bridge, type of butt wrap, butt diameter, etc.). There are also many physical factors that affect how a cue "feels" (stiffness, impact transmission, vibrational characteristics, impact sounds, joint material and type, energy absorption inserts or cores, type of wood and construction, etc.).

Regards,
Dave
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Just because we're somewhat in agreement, and all of the factors for "playability" and "feel" are in both a golf club and pool cue, don't EVEN THINK about inviting me for a possible induction into the club to have me wear a leather jacket with the "colors" on it.

<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
don't EVEN THINK about inviting me for a possible induction into the club to have me wear a leather jacket with the "colors" on it. <hr /></blockquote>

I've already overnighted it,ha ha!
Take care!
Carol

Artemus
02-12-2008, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Way to go,DAD!Thats what Im talking about /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>
<font color="red"> Yeh mom, but things just play out the way they play out. Sometimes like this, and sometimes not. I just do what I gotta do when I do it and you gots to trust in yo dad. (you understand "hood" tawk, right?) </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

CarolNYC
02-12-2008, 08:24 AM
Yeah, AH-ite,ah-ite,I gots it /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Art,
You said "no studies have been done on the flex of a pool shaft on playing results and that,flex does affect feel, but ,in a golf shaft ,produces different results-do you think flex in a cue would also produce different results?

Carol

eg8r
02-12-2008, 09:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Some people insist a flatter tip will draw better, but I dont see it. Am I missing something? <hr /></blockquote> I think those people are a little crazy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Artemus
02-12-2008, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Yeah, AH-ite,ah-ite,I gots it /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Art,
You said "no studies have been done on the flex of a pool shaft on playing results and that,flex does affect feel, but ,in a golf shaft ,produces different results-do you think flex in a cue would also produce different results?
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

Provided that someone can first come up with a way to determine what the flex is in any given shaft that's completely accurate and accepted as the industry standard, then they might be able to put some brain power behind different testing methods to determine it. Until then it's conjecture, and both of the above are so far off into the future Earth might end up looking like Mars before it's determined. I'm in the camp that says that it DOES, but only from observation and personal results.

Here's another one to ponder and screw with your pretty little head. In golf you have what's referred to as COR, Coefficient of Restitution. Not only is it built into a club to exacting tolerances, but it's MEASURED with a maximum limit, and if it exceeds the limit the club is considered non-conforming and ILLEGAL for tournament play.
What is COR? It's the springlike effect of the face upon impact with a golf ball. This is another area that Dave studied and more than likely teaches. (maybe, maybe not, but it is NOT foreign to him)

With a pool cue you have different hardness/softness ratings for tips as measured by a press device. We ALL know that each type of tip provides a different "feel" that we either like or dislike. But does it account for different results? Again, no complex tests have ever been devised or done to determine it. You have two camps once more claiming that it means NOTHING, or there ARE differences.

I again am in the camp that says it DOES make a difference.
How else would you explain greater CB speed in MPH with a phenolic tip vs. a playing tip? Now THAT has been proven with a radar gun.

You'll have some guys say that the tip is only on the CB for .00000000(put whatever number you wish) and it has no effect. Well, the face of a golf club is in contact with the ball for the same amount of time and possibly LESS and there ARE measureable differences in performance. Why and how? Because the golf industry is just that much further advanced in technology.

Grooves on a golf club and the way they're cut or angled into the face also can affect the flight, trajectory, and spin rate of the golf ball. That too is a measurable FACT and limits are being placed on grooves by the powers that be in golf. If that's the case, why wouldn't certain tips based on hardness/softness, radius, smoothness or roughed by a tapper, or size have anything to do with spin?

One camp says NO, another camp says YES. WHERE ARE THE TESTS? Blackboard math DOESN'T cut the mustard, nor bullsheyit theories and old wives tales passed on down throughout the ages.

Now, go ponder all of this with your GOOGAN leather jacket on along with some "wrinkle cream" on your forehead because you may get some aging furrows trying to figure it out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
02-12-2008, 11:19 AM
Carol, there is a lot of technology in a golf shaft, like the "kick point", and different flex's that wouldn't have any/much? use in a pool cue. Then add in the many head configurations, etc...and it becomes "apples and oranges"
My current driver, a clone of the Nike Sasquatch is square headed....looks odd, but the best driver that I've ever had.
Golf though owes much to former cue maker, Richard Helmstetter...the design genius behind Callaway Clubs

CarolNYC
02-12-2008, 05:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Now, go ponder all of this with your GOOGAN leather jacket on along with some "wrinkle cream" on your forehead because you may get some aging furrows trying to figure it out <hr /></blockquote>

First of all:

Its 11 degrees out-Im wearing Northface Artic wear-so no googan leather today,ha ha!

I told you wrinkle cream is hemmorhoid cream,so,watch who your kissing,ha ha!

And now, "a pondering I go,a pondering I go, hi,ho-off to ponder!"
Talk to ya later!
Carol

CarolNYC
02-12-2008, 05:40 PM
Hi Jack,
I do not know much about golf-what is the "kick point" and what does it "do!"


[ QUOTE ]
Golf though owes much to former cue maker, Richard Helmstetter...the design genius behind Callaway Clubs <hr /></blockquote>
Oh my goodness, I didnt know that-I have a few Helmstetter and that is my cue of choice /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Carol

wolfdancer
02-12-2008, 05:55 PM
Carol, everything you wanted to know about shafts, but your Grandmother wouldn't tell you:
web page (http://www.purelygolf.com/E/Shaft.htm)
The story goes that Richard was playing golf in Carlsbad,Ca and got paired up with Eli Callaway, who had just designed a wood and metal putter...but was having problems with the wood splitting. Seems Richard is an engineer, besides being a craftsman...and next thing you know....the Callaway test center is named after Helmstetter.
He also made millions "overnite" when the company stock was first traded.
COR, MOI, M O U S E...they're all geek to me