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02-25-2002, 10:47 PM
This is in response to recent inquiries or concerns about poor service, tube liners, cues fitting loosly, lid clasps, use of marbles, spacers, wooden dowels in the shaft tubes, or why we choose leather over vinyl.

Poor service is not a part of our vocabulary. As long as I'm living each case that I have ever built is guaranteed against original defects in materials and workmanship, otherwise I would have never imprinted my phone # (954-974-5614) under the handle strap on every case made in the last 10 years. I currently have no unsatisfied customers.

TUBE LINERS: The material we use in our cases is durable, color fast, does not hold moisture and will never dull the finish on your cue. What do you call a case with worn out tube liners? Answer: Useless, unless it is a Justis. I can replace the tube liners in about 15 minutes!

LOOSE FITTING BUTTS: We perfer that the butt section of the cue fit loosely for two reasons: Better air circulation between the cue and tube but most importantly to prevent friction against the finish on the cue and the liner each time the butt is removed and replaced from the case. If the finish on your cue has become hazy, I can almost guarantee the cause is too tight of a fit in the butt tube. Loose rules in my opinion. Ask your cuemaker what he perfers.

SHAFT TUBES: Our cases are designed to hold up to a 60" cue. If your cue is 58", a small amount of anything EXCEPT, wooden dowels, rubber spacers, hard plastic, foam rubber and marbles should be placed down each shaft tube. We recommend several small pieces of tissue wadded up and pressed in with the shaft tube until the shaft is level with the top of the case. Please don't use anything other than tissue.

LID CLASPS/TURN LOCKS: Someone mentioned about the chincy turn locks. I only used these on about 20 cases when I first started in the business and didn't know any better. I immediately found out that if a case falls over frontward the turn lock or lid clasp is the first thing to hit the floor. This of course either bends the plate or breaks the turn lock. I immediately redesigned the lid with a #20 line snap to enable the lid to open from right to left instead of front to rear. Never had a problem since. After all the problems with turn locks on the front of cases, it amazes me to see that many of the casemakers are still using them.
LEATHER vs VINYL: Your kidding, right? ;-)

I hope I have covered all the issues but if you have more I will be checking back periodically or you may contact me direct any time.

02-25-2002, 11:01 PM
Hi Jack,
I was curious if you have ever heard of Dennis Swift? I have a case that was made by him that I "came upon". This case is similar to the cases you make. The reason I ask, a month or so ago, a guy noticed my case and complimented me on it. He had one of your cases and when I told him who made mine he said he couldn't believe I used it as my "every day case". He didn't say why. Therefore I am left puzzled. Is there any significant reason why I shouldn't carry this case with me all of the time?

02-25-2002, 11:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr> Hi Jack,
I was curious if you have ever heard of Dennis Swift? I have a case that was made by him that I "came upon". This case is similar to the cases you make. The reason I ask, a month or so ago, a guy noticed my case and complimented me on it. He had one of your cases and when I told him who made mine he said he couldn't believe I used it as my "every day case". He didn't say why. Therefore I am left puzzled. Is there any significant reason why I shouldn't carry this case with me all of the time?

Hi Shot,
Only if you buy one of my cases, otherwise, I say carry what you have. :-) Dennis is a great guy and makes a fine case.

BLACKHEART
02-26-2002, 12:40 AM
Jack, this is Jerry Eick of "BLACK HEART CUSTOM CUES". One of the posts, about your cases was by me. Do you remember my case? I was so very proud of it, I showed it off to everyone. I even bought several more of your cases to sell to my friends.
When I called you, to tell you that my zipper had broken, you told me that you would send me a new zipper at no charge, but that you would rather I took it to a "luggage shop" to have it repaired. You said that once the case was assembled it was very hard to repair the zipper.
I asked you if I could send it to you to fix &amp; you told me again, to take it to a "luggage shop" &amp; you were sure they would know what to do.
Well, I took it to a "luggage shop" &amp; they TOTALLY F----- it up. The stitching is white in color instead of the black that was on it,&amp; crooked as hell. THEY ALSO USED STAPLES in the corners. Since I knew you didn't want the case back to repair, I threw it under the bed &amp; that's where it stayed. Now, I'm NOT A LIER WHEN I REPEAT THIS STORY, but I'm very disappointed in your "SERVICE". I may not be right on schedual with my Q orders, but if I have ANY problems, the customer can count on JERRY EICK, to repair that Q &amp; do what ever is needed to make it right. I have 2 things that I'm most proud of in my life,MY FAMILY &amp; MY WORD. FOLKS, YOU CAN COUNT ON ME TO BE HONEST, TO A FAULT, EVEN IF I LOSE MONEY ON THE DEAL. Sorry Jack , but you DO have at least one unhappy customer. I,m sorry, but I thought I deserved more from you than I got...JER

Rich R.
02-26-2002, 06:20 AM
Jack, I have 58" cues and I have been using the rubber case spacers, in the butt tubes only, sold by AZBilliards.com. You state that I should not be using these spacers. Could you please elaborate and tell me what problem these spacers may cause? They seem to serve my purpose well and they are easy to remove when necessary. Frankly, I feel odd buying a $500+ 3x6 case and stuffing it with tissues. I believe that, in time the tissues will shred and create a real mess. Rich R. ~~curious.

02-26-2002, 08:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rich R.:</font><hr> Jack, I have 58" cues and I have been using the rubber case spacers, in the butt tubes only, sold by AZBilliards.com. You state that I should not be using these spacers. Could you please elaborate and tell me what problem these spacers may cause? They seem to serve my purpose well and they are easy to remove when necessary. Frankly, I feel odd buying a $500+ 3x6 case and stuffing it with tissues. I believe that, in time the tissues will shred and create a real mess. Rich R. ~~curious. <hr></blockquote>

Hi Rich

No problem using the spacers in the butt tubes if thats what you want to do. Although, most standard 58" cue butts can be easily removed by grasping the pin. I suppose I could start building my cases to accommodate only 58" cues, but that would sure make it more difficult for the individuals buying longer cues. The main thing is not to get a plug or dowel hung up midway in the liner when trying to fit the shafts. Using tissue paper or a cocktail napkin eleminates the problem. There is nothing on the tip that would cause the paper to shred. It only compresses it. I have removed paper from the tubes on cases over 10 years old when doing a re-condition and not once was their any deteriotion of the paper itself. Hope this helps.

02-26-2002, 08:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Jack, this is Jerry Eick of "BLACK HEART CUSTOM CUES". One of the posts, about your cases was by me. Do you remember my case? I was so very proud of it, I showed it off to everyone. I even bought several more of your cases to sell to my friends.
When I called you, to tell you that my zipper had broken, you told me that you would send me a new zipper at no charge, but that you would rather I took it to a "luggage shop" to have it repaired. You said that once the case was assembled it was very hard to repair the zipper.
I asked you if I could send it to you to fix &amp; you told me again, to take it to a "luggage shop" &amp; you were sure they would know what to do.
Well, I took it to a "luggage shop" &amp; they TOTALLY F----- it up. The stitching is white in color instead of the black that was on it,&amp; crooked as hell. THEY ALSO USED STAPLES in the corners. Since I knew you didn't want the case back to repair, I threw it under the bed &amp; that's where it stayed. Now, I'm NOT A LIER WHEN I REPEAT THIS STORY, but I'm very disappointed in your "SERVICE". I may not be right on schedual with my Q orders, but if I have ANY problems, the customer can count on JERRY EICK, to repair that Q &amp; do what ever is needed to make it right. I have 2 things that I'm most proud of in my life,MY FAMILY &amp; MY WORD. FOLKS, YOU CAN COUNT ON ME TO BE HONEST, TO A FAULT, EVEN IF I LOSE MONEY ON THE DEAL. Sorry Jack , but you DO have at least one unhappy customer. I,m sorry, but I thought I deserved more from you than I got...JER <hr></blockquote>
Hi Jerry,
Sure I remember your case and also the phone call about the zipper. We discussed what caused the zipper to fail after approxmately 5 years use and I was only trying to save you some money on the repair. I told you that I could replace the zipper, but the case would have to be taken apart and the pocket removed in order to sew the new zipper in at a cost of around $100 plus transportation cost. I'm sorry about the repair place doing such a crappy job. If your mainly concerned about the color of the thread they used, it can be dyed black or brown very easily by using one of the sharpie marking pens. I did offer to reimburse you any cost involved for the repair even though you had the case for approxmately 5 years. I never heard back from you so I assumed everything was OK until I read your post in this public forum. My offer of making the repair still stands and I'm just sorry you didn't get back to me to express your dissatisfaction with the local repair shop.

Rich R.
02-26-2002, 09:13 AM
Thanks Jack, I just wanted to make sure the plugs I was using would not damage the case in any way. They are small enough that they don't hang up in the butt tubes. The instructions with the plugs advise against using the for shaft tubes and I haven't had any problem with the shafts. As long as I don't press the shafts tight into the tubes, I am able to grab them easily and remove them. The joint protectors, I use, also add a little lenghth to the shafts and help in the removal. Rich R.~~~loves his JJ case.

Q-guy
02-26-2002, 09:17 AM
If you say the case would have to be taken apart to do the repair properly, that sounds a little involved. Why did you think stranger with no knowledge of the construction of the case would be competent to do the job? I don't think you gave him good advice. Did you offer to repair the case for $100.? This may be no one else's business but you are discussing it on an open forum. Us rail birds would like to get all the facts straight.

02-26-2002, 11:22 AM
The case is about that age &amp; I never did expect any kind of warranty on the zipper. I only wanted the zipper fixed. In our conversation you did mention, that if you had to take the case apart that the repair would be AROUND $100. Your reason, may have been to try to save me money, but as I said, you made it clear to me that YOU didn't want to do the job. Once the job was botched &amp; you didn't want to do it, I felt I had nowhere else to turn. The $100 repair cost was never a problem. I would pay the charge, if I thought you would do the repair. If I gave the impression to anyone on this board or elsewhere that a JACK JUSTIS case was anything other than the BEST case made, I'm sorry. IT'S ONLY THE SERVICE THAT I HAD AN ISSUE WITH. If I for one minute thought you would do the repair, I would have sent it off right away. I LOVE THE CASE &amp; if you're willing to repair it, send me a current repair price &amp; the case will be shipped as soon as I can locate a box...JER

BLACKHEART
02-26-2002, 11:39 AM
I guess I forgot to "LOG ON". I dislike this new forum, I like "simple" &amp; I think this is more complicated than it has to be...JER

SPetty
02-26-2002, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I guess I forgot to "LOG ON". I dislike this new forum, I like "simple" &amp; I think this is more complicated than it has to be...JER <hr></blockquote>

Yep, you're right about that.

As for logging on, I've learned that it seems that if you don't ever log off, you are always logged on. If you don't share a computer, just don't log off when you're done, and you'll be logged in automatically when you come back. If you're sharing a computer, however, it would be best to log off.

Chris Cass
02-26-2002, 01:07 PM
I love my JJustis Case and also the compliments that come with it every where I go. Your costomer service and business ethics are on the top of my list as the best. I was treated excellent and as I've posted at your site Jack, your the perfect example of how a business should be ran. IMO you've become more of a friend than a place my case came from Jack. I also want to thank you again for having my case ready for the Meskwaki tournament in Tama, IA. Appreciate that greatly,
Chris(Cass)Aiardo

02-26-2002, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> The case is about that age &amp; I never did expect any kind of warranty on the zipper. I only wanted the zipper fixed. In our conversation you did mention, that if you had to take the case apart that the repair would be AROUND $100. Your reason, may have been to try to save me money, but as I said, you made it clear to me that YOU didn't want to do the job. Once the job was botched &amp; you didn't want to do it, I felt I had nowhere else to turn. The $100 repair cost was never a problem. I would pay the charge, if I thought you would do the repair. If I gave the impression to anyone on this board or elsewhere that a JACK JUSTIS case was anything other than the BEST case made, I'm sorry. IT'S ONLY THE SERVICE THAT I HAD AN ISSUE WITH. If I for one minute thought you would do the repair, I would have sent it off right away. I LOVE THE CASE &amp; if you're willing to repair it, send me a current repair price &amp; the case will be shipped as soon as I can locate a box...JER <hr></blockquote>

Hey Jerry,
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and to get this problem solved without causing you any further worry, send me the case and I'll do the repair at no charge. If possible, I would appreciate your holding off til I get back from Valley Forge on March 19th. I have no intention of letting a small matter of this nature get in the way of our past friendship.

BLACKHEART
02-26-2002, 01:45 PM
If you leave your computer "LOGED ON" to any site you leave yourself open to any hacker who wants into your computer...JER

02-26-2002, 01:50 PM
I am a second unhappy customer. When I told you that my new
Justis case would not accommodate my shafts - diameter of tubes is to small, your comment was roughly, since I owned the case, I owned the problem. There was no offer to work with me on a solution. I did find a way to make the case work for me. But your unwillingness to help solve this problem was disappointing.

02-26-2002, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Q-guy:</font><hr> If you say the case would have to be taken apart to do the repair properly, that sounds a little involved. Why did you think stranger with no knowledge of the construction of the case would be competent to do the job? I don't think you gave him good advice. Did you offer to repair the case for $100.? This may be no one else's business but you are discussing it on an open forum. Us rail birds would like to get all the facts straight. <hr></blockquote>
Hey Q-Guy,
Yes, I did say that I would have to take the case apart to replace the zipper, but most luggage or shoe repair shops have the open throat sewing machine that sews in a zipper without having to disassemble the case. Its just unfortunate that the shop didn't do a good job. I would still recommend having zippers replaced at a competent shop that specializes in repairs to save the customer the expense of returning the case. Replacing zippers is not rocket science and most shops do an excellent job. I use nothing but brass tooth zippers and have had only a few to fail over the years so I really cannot justify spending $6000 on a sewing machine that I would only use once a year.
By the way, I will be replacing the zipper on Jerry's case at no charge as a matter of good will. Have a good day.

BLACKHEART
02-26-2002, 01:57 PM
Jack, I appeciate your offer, &amp; I repeat that the money was never the problem, only my perception, that you didn't want to do it. My grandmother had a saying that seems to apply here. "IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO HIT YA,RUN. IF THEY WANT TO GIVE YA SOMETHIN', TAKE IT &amp; SAY THANK YOU". It's on it's way as soon as I can find a box. THANK YOU...JER

02-26-2002, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> I am a second unhappy customer. When I told you that my new
Justis case would not accommodate my shafts - diameter of tubes is to small, your comment was roughly, since I owned the case, I owned the problem. There was no offer to work with me on a solution. I did find a way to make the case work for me. But your unwillingness to help solve this problem was disappointing. <hr></blockquote>

Hey Anonymous,
If your shafts were larger in diameter than the standard .085" and would not go all the way down in the shaft tubes to allow the lid to close, the only option would be to cut about 1 or 2 inches off of the shaft tubes.
My case is designed to hold just about 98% of the shafts being made today and if you bought a cue with oversize shaft colars, I would have no way of knowing that. If you are not capable of shortening the shaft tubes, I would be more than happy to do it for you, but hear again, it's a little overkill to send the case back for such a simple 5 minute job. Also, I'm a little puzzled on why you would not want to give your name. Maybe that would refresh my memory of the situation.

SPetty
02-26-2002, 03:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> If you leave your computer "LOGED ON" to any site you leave yourself open to any hacker who wants into your computer...JER <hr></blockquote>

Hi Jer,

I don't mean to leave your computer logged on, but to simply not perform the "Logout" function from this site. Then, the next time you turn on your computer and come back to this site, you will still be logged on to this site. I hope I'm being more clear. I can turn on my computer, then come to this site and click the Login and put in my user/password, then turn off my computer. When I turn my computer back on and come back to this site, I'm still logged on, where I don't have to do the "Login" thing again. I think you indicated that you were having trouble remembering to Log In when you got here. If you don't ever log out, you don't have to remember to log in. Something to do with cookies probably.

BLACKHEART
02-26-2002, 03:30 PM
Like I said if you do that, it's real easy to get into your computer!!!!!!!...JER

02-26-2002, 03:37 PM
I'm a bit confused, Jer...
How can some one hack into my computer if I'm NOT connected to the internet. BTW, a firewall (software or hardware built into a router, etc.) solves any worries anyway.

Tim

heater451
02-26-2002, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> Quote: BLACKHEART If you leave your computer "LOGED ON" to any site you leave yourself open to any hacker who wants into your computer...JER<hr></blockquote>

Hi Jer,

I don't mean to leave your computer logged on, but to simply not perform the "Logout" function from this site. Then, the next time you turn on your computer and come back to this site, you will still be logged on to this site. I hope I'm being more clear. I can turn on my computer, then come to this site and click the Login and put in my user/password, then turn off my computer. When I turn my computer back on and come back to this site, I'm still logged on, where I don't have to do the "Login" thing again. I think you indicated that you were having trouble remembering to Log In when you got here. If you don't ever log out, you don't have to remember to log in. Something to do with cookies probably. <hr></blockquote>

Correct, if you stay logged into the CCB, it will 'remember' you, via a cookie file. This is separate from being logged onto the Internet, and does not constitute the type of security threat that Jerry is worried about.

If you're curious about the cookie file for the CCB, try looking in C:\Documents and Settings\YOURNAME\Cookies for IE. Running a search for *billiard* in this folder will help narrow it down.

If you find the right one, there should be a long string of text, with the URL of the site near the beginning, and your username included somewhere.

Netscape users can look in C:\Program Files\Netscape\Users\YOURNAME. There should be a cookies.txt file, with a list of cookie info in there. Even easier, run a search for "cookies.txt".

rackmup
02-26-2002, 03:47 PM
Mr. Justis,

It's refreshing to read as a manufacturer of such a fine product deals "head on" with customer issues. This has "sealed the deal" on my choice of a JJ case for my new Richard Black cue.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Would it benefit me to see you personally with my cues-in-hand? I would think that might solve any issues before they actually become issues. I would be happy to fly into wherever you are, provided you are close to a major airport. I could actually leave straight from picking up my cue at Mr. Blacks place of business. The flight from Texas to Florida isn't too far (you are in Florida, correct?) Perhaps, if your schedule allows, we (my wife and I) could meet you for lunch at or near the local airport. Any ideas?

2. What is the turn-around time for a case to be completed. I plan on a few custom features that you offer (laser engraving, additional tooling, etc.) A "ballpark" figure is fine.

Regards,

Ken

02-26-2002, 08:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> Mr. Justis,

It's refreshing to read as a manufacturer of such a fine product deals "head on" with customer issues. This has "sealed the deal" on my choice of a JJ case for my new Richard Black cue.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Would it benefit me to see you personally with my cues-in-hand? I would think that might solve any issues before they actually become issues. I would be happy to fly into wherever you are, provided you are close to a major airport. I could actually leave straight from picking up my cue at Mr. Blacks place of business. The flight from Texas to Florida isn't too far (you are in Florida, correct?) Perhaps, if your schedule allows, we (my wife and I) could meet you for lunch at or near the local airport. Any ideas?

2. What is the turn-around time for a case to be completed. I plan on a few custom features that you offer (laser engraving, additional tooling, etc.) A "ballpark" figure is fine.

Regards,

Ken
<hr></blockquote>
Mr. Justis,

It's refreshing to read as a manufacturer of such a fine product deals "head on" with customer issues. This has "sealed the deal" on my choice of a JJ case for my new Richard Black cue.

I have always made this my policy.


I have a couple of questions:

1. Would it benefit me to see you personally with my cues-in-hand? I would think that might solve any issues before they actually become issues. I would be happy to fly into wherever you are, provided you are close to a major airport. I could actually leave straight from picking up my cue at Mr. Blacks place of business. The flight from Texas to Florida isn't too far (you are in Florida, correct?) Perhaps, if your schedule allows, we (my wife and I) could meet you for lunch at or near the local airport. Any ideas?


You are certainly welcome to do whatever you feel comfortable with. I live very close to either Executive or Pompano Air Park.

2. What is the turn-around time for a case to be completed. I plan on a few custom features that you offer (laser engraving, additional tooling, etc.) A "ballpark" figure is fine.


Normally, around 15 days upon receipt of order. All prices are current on my web site. If you have any questions, just let me know

Regards,
Jack

02-26-2002, 08:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> Mr. Justis,

It's refreshing to read as a manufacturer of such a fine product deals "head on" with customer issues. This has "sealed the deal" on my choice of a JJ case for my new Richard Black cue.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Would it benefit me to see you personally with my cues-in-hand? I would think that might solve any issues before they actually become issues. I would be happy to fly into wherever you are, provided you are close to a major airport. I could actually leave straight from picking up my cue at Mr. Blacks place of business. The flight from Texas to Florida isn't too far (you are in Florida, correct?) Perhaps, if your schedule allows, we (my wife and I) could meet you for lunch at or near the local airport. Any ideas?

You are certainly welcome to do whatever works best for you. Either Executive or Pompano Air Park is close.

2. What is the turn-around time for a case to be completed. I plan on a few custom features that you offer (laser engraving, additional tooling, etc.) A "ballpark" figure is fine.

Normally around 15 days upon receipt of order. All prices are current on my web site and if you have any questions, give me a call at your convenience. 954-974-5614
Regards,
Jack

02-27-2002, 01:38 AM
I am going to chime in here and mention that our local cobbler replaces zippers for about $25 without any problems. Jack's advice was right on. The problem is that most luggage or shoe repair shops around don't like the hassle of struggling with a cue case because it is sometimes awkward to handle on the sewing machine. A real craftsman will gladly take the job and expect a fair payment for it.

Brady_Behrman
03-03-2002, 12:24 AM
Jack,

I love your cases. I "borrowed" the one you gave to my dad that is a 1 butt two shaft dated 9/22/93. It has the 9 ball rack on it and says U.S.Open..What a beauty!

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck and look forward to seeing you again in September.

Tell the family HELLO from the Behrmans

Your Friend,
Brady Behrman

JUSTIS CASES ARE GREAT!

03-03-2002, 09:15 AM
Hi Brady,
Thanks for the kind words. Look forward to seeing you in September.
Jack

03-03-2002, 12:05 PM
Jack, not long ago I posted here an experience I had with my Justis case. I live in Puerto Rico, and we met at the 1999 US Open, altough you may not remember.

Anyways, I went to a pool tournament with my Justis and my Schon and Lucasi cue. I had to wait about two hours before my turn came up. When I took my cue out, it was cold as heck. I live in the tropics and the average temperature here is about 80 degrees sometimes in the high 90's during summer. So when I was in this pool room with air conditioning (about 65 degrees), I panicked when I got my cue out because I thought that the temperature change of my cue could have warped it. I rolled my cue on the table to ensure its straightness. This situation immediately brought to my mind when I lost a Schon cue due to warpage and it had always been kept in my Justis case. At the time this cue warped, I had no idea whatsoever, of what could have happened since I do not let my cues in the trunk, I travel with them as passengers, and immediately take the case out and it is with me all the time. The only thing I could figure was that the case was not protecting my cues as it was supposed to.

As of this date, I do not know what happened to my cue. The only satisfactory explanation in my mind is that somehow the case did not protect it.

I would like to know if you believe your cases are built to withstand the sudden temperature changes of the tropics. Also, what do you suggest be the proper handling/care of your cuecases in my particular case.

Notwithstanding the above, I love the looks of my case, and overall, I am happy but I have my doubts about the protection.

Please excuse my dissident view about protection of your cases but I need good explanation...

Harold Acosta - Puerto Rico, USA!

03-03-2002, 12:13 PM
Rich, I purchase those same rubber spacers, and I can say that they tarnish the finish on my Schon cocobolo joint protectors. Needless to say, the were out of my case in a jiffy.

03-03-2002, 12:43 PM
Hi John, I hope you remember me when we met at the 1999 US Open and then again at the 2000 Valley Forge. I'm the red head chubby guy from Puerto Rico.

Anyway, I have tried contacting you several times at your site with no luck since my 3/7 Instroke has it's latch broken and also the top leather handle.

My emails have offered to pay for the repairs since it is obviously out of warranty. The latch is an easy task since you explained to me at the Valley Forge convention; however, I would like for the top leather strap to be a little thicker and wider to withstand the heavy load of my cues.

Could you leave some instructions here on how to proceed?

Harold - Puerto Rico, USA.

Q-guy
03-03-2002, 02:34 PM
I raised that same issue before, and in Mr. Justis's blanket reply to many of the other questions raised, he never addressed it other then to say "You are kidding right." In regard to my question about leather maybe not being the best protection for the cue. I think cases of that design, Originally designed by Jay Flowers by the way, are more ornamental then "True protection". They are for the guy that wants his name in big letters on his case. IMHO

03-03-2002, 05:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Harold Acosta:</font><hr> Jack, not long ago I posted here an experience I had with my Justis case. I live in Puerto Rico, and we met at the 1999 US Open, altough you may not remember.

Anyways, I went to a pool tournament with my Justis and my Schon and Lucasi cue. I had to wait about two hours before my turn came up. When I took my cue out, it was cold as heck. I live in the tropics and the average temperature here is about 80 degrees sometimes in the high 90's during summer. So when I was in this pool room with air conditioning (about 65 degrees), I panicked when I got my cue out because I thought that the temperature change of my cue could have warped it. I rolled my cue on the table to ensure its straightness. This situation immediately brought to my mind when I lost a Schon cue due to warpage and it had always been kept in my Justis case. At the time this cue warped, I had no idea whatsoever, of what could have happened since I do not let my cues in the trunk, I travel with them as passengers, and immediately take the case out and it is with me all the time. The only thing I could figure was that the case was not protecting my cues as it was supposed to.

As of this date, I do not know what happened to my cue. The only satisfactory explanation in my mind is that somehow the case did not protect it.

I would like to know if you believe your cases are built to withstand the sudden temperature changes of the tropics. Also, what do you suggest be the proper handling/care of your cuecases in my particular case.

Notwithstanding the above, I love the looks of my case, and overall, I am happy but I have my doubts about the protection.

Please excuse my dissident view about protection of your cases but I need good explanation...

Harold Acosta - Puerto Rico, USA!



<hr></blockquote>
Hi Harold,
I really do not understand your concern about the cues being cold after being in a 65 degree room for 2 hours in your case. Of course, they would be the same ambient room temperture after this length of time. You certainly do not think they should remain the same 90 degree outside temperature. Even if they did, wouldn't the cues eventually come up to room temp? I also live in the tropics (south Florida) and this is something that is experienced every day. I am not trying to dodge any responsibility, but I don't see how you can blame the warping of the cue on any case. Anything made from wood expands and contracts due to temperature change. Warping is more than likely caused by not allowing the wood to properly rest between turnings. I can say with 100% certainty that the warping cue problem is not case related. If this were true, I can guarantee I would have heard about it before now. Many of the top players in the world are currently carrying my cases by choice since I offer no financial help whatsoever. If they were having a problem with the case not providing suberb protection of their expensive cues, you can be assured I would be the first to know. You mentioned this happened on one of your older cues, what about the cues your currently carrying? Are they also warped?

03-03-2002, 05:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Q-guy:</font><hr> I raised that same issue before, and in Mr. Justis's blanket reply to many of the other questions raised, he never addressed it other then to say "You are kidding right." In regard to my question about leather maybe not being the best protection for the cue. I think cases of that design, Originally designed by Jay Flowers by the way, are more ornamental then "True protection". They are for the guy that wants his name in big letters on his case. IMHO <hr></blockquote>
Hey Q Guy,
Sorry, if you didn't get the message. I do not make vinyl cases since they do not hold up that well. Most are poorly made overseas and carry little or no warranty. Some have interiors that will damage the finish on a cue in a very short time. I will admit however that these cases meet the requirements of many players. If you have an expensive cue that you want to afford protection over the years, then it would be better to look for a case like Instroke or Whitten. If you want a case with your name in gold leaf or require some other silly option, then I guess you're stuck with me. Exactly how much protection do you need from any cue case? I can back over mine with a car without damaging the cues, but I wouldn't recommend it. I'm sure you could also do the same with Instoke or Whitten.

Harold Acosta
03-03-2002, 07:59 PM
Jack my concern is that not all pool rooms (99%) in Puerto Rico have air conditioning. About 75% of the homes don't have air conditioning. When a cue is always at room temperature, lets say in the 80's and you put it in your car with air conditioning (65 degrees) you go to a pool room and the temperature rises again to 80's in a couple of minutes, doesn't this affect the wood? My reply would be yes!

In my particular scenario, it went from lets say 80 degrees to 65 for a couple of hours, then to about 75 degrees since I came out of the pool room during the night. As the night passes by temperatures may drop a little more, then as day comes, the temperature rises again to 80-85 or 90's, then it drops during the afternoon and again during the night. Constant changes all day, for days, weeks, years; something is bound to happen to the cue. The case should definitely provide as much protection as possible. Don't you think? This is the reason why I asked for your advice on cue protection since definitely you cannot compare Florida to Puerto Rico since we are a couple of degrees closer to the Equator. Another factor is humidity since we are a 100 x 35 mile Island. These factors are definitely more harsh than in Florida, and you can take that for a fact.

You know what I did immediately after my experience? I purchased an Instroke case. This is were my good cues have rested ever since. I have other less expensive cues that are currently in the Justis Case. I have gotten offers for the Justis but I will not sell. Not only because I love the looks but also because I would have problems with my concience if the person who purchased the case experiences the same thing I did. Please bear in mind, that my only explanation with the cue warpage lies on cue protection since I really take good care of my cues.

Most of the Players in Puerto Rico have purchased Instroke over the Justis and Porpers because they truly provide cue protection. Believe me, we have discussed cue protection many times, and the first choice in the Island is Instroke.

My question comes about again. What recomendations would you provide in our (Puerto Rico's) scenario?

A somewhat happy customer....

Harold - Puerto Rico

03-03-2002, 09:16 PM
Harold,
Your changing scenarios on climate, temperature, humidity, air conditioning will certainly have an adverse affect on cues over the long haul, but I still maintain that if a cue warps, it is usually a result of not allowing the wood to stabalize between turnings. I might also add that this shows up very early in the life of the cue.The only way to minimize this from happening is to store the cue in a humidity and temperature controlled enviroment. I can guarantee without hesitation that storing a cue in one of my cases is not the cause of your problem. There is nothing inside the Instroke case or any other case for that matter that prevents a cue from warping if proper seasoning and care is not given during the turning stages. You seem to be avoiding this issue by saying you take good care of your cues. Have you ever though of contacting the cuemaker and getting his opinions on why this might happen? If you feel more comfortable storing your cues in the Instroke case, by all means do it. You will not hurt my feelings one bit. I'm sure John will be more than happy to take your order. They make a fine case for the money.

03-03-2002, 10:17 PM
Jack, the whole issue here is cue protection. You can leave an Instroke in the trunk of a car and although you will feel the difference of temperature when handling the case, the heat does not transfer to the cue inside. This is not the case with your product. It seems that the heat or cold will transfer inside to the cue. Why? I don't know. Maybe the materials? If you compare the padding and leather of the Instroke vs the Justis, the Instroke is much more protected. At least on the ones I have.

Lets go on about what happened to my cue. I certainly have to give you the benefit of the doubt that my cue somewhat came defective from the factory. Maybe it was not turned appropriately. I don't know that for a fact because the cue was a couple of months old. All I know is that my other Schon has not warped and it was purchased about 6 years ago. Maybe I got lucky with the new cue but when I take it out of the Instroke, I don't feel any coldness or heat on it. Why? I don't know. Maybe John could pitch-in on this debate.

I have stored my cues the same way I stored the one that warped in your case. No problems with the Instroke. For your information, they are stored flat on a table I specially purchased to lay all my cues in 7 different cue cases. An Instoke, Giuseppe, Porper, Justis, Cue&amp;Case Pro Series, and two other no name brand cases. Only one other cue has warped, and that is a Players cue which cost me only $35.00. It serves me now as my break cue.

Maybe my experience and beliefs are somewhat unfair to your product. It may even be a once in a lifetime scenario but I cannot erase from my mind the only logical explanation that my Jack Justis case did not protect my investment. I just cannot get over it.

By the way, the cue was returned to CueStix International by my dealer. They had a hard time believing that proper care to the cue was given, although the cue was in near perfect condition with hardly any dings and No scratches. CueStix did exchange the cue (SL-3) for the one I currently have (paid the difference) which is an ST-7, no longer in production or sale.

If you wish, we can lay this issue to rest, although I am willing to receive any response you may deem appropriate.

Again, a somewhat satisfied customer.

Harold

03-03-2002, 11:26 PM
Harold,
I can see your not paying any attention and it appears that you only motive is to provoke me into an argument. Not going to happen. THE END

Q-guy
03-04-2002, 09:33 AM
I am just curious if, since the cues and shafts are inside PVC tubes. Could you cap off the bottom of the tubes, (if you don't already), and add an HD piece of foam to the inside of the lid. This should address any problems (both real and imagined) as to humidity. I do know what you are talking about in the difference between leather and vinyl. Leather is not only very durable but as it wares it takes on a new kind elegance like my old favorite leather jacket. I don't own any other 30 year old clothes. Vinyl just looks worn out.

03-04-2002, 03:59 PM
The tubes in my cases fit flush with the hardwood bottom and sealing the inside of the pvc tube would serve no useful purpose in my opinion. The tube liners in my cases do not attract or hold moisture like the fuzzy ones. I avoid using any type of foam on the inside of my case in that over a period of time, I feel it will disintergrate. I'm not trying to be negative to your suggestions. I have tried many different things over the years, some good, some bad. I try and stay away from the ones that didn't work for me. I would like to think that my cases can be passed on to future generations. I agree with you 100% on your choice of leather over vinyl.

Harold Acosta
03-04-2002, 09:13 PM
Jack,
I can see that you are the one not paying attention to this matter since I gave you the benefit of the doubt. My motive was not to provoke but to get a logical explanation that would be satisfactory to me. You are the one claiming that there are no unsatisfied customers. Well, you are wrong Pal!

Now I'm mad and very unsatisfied. Your cases are definitely to show-off, not to protect.

NOW COMES THE END.....

A very unsatisfied, mad as heck customer with the piece of junk case I have. (Take this as a provocation).

Harold

03-05-2002, 02:10 AM
As a cuemaker I can concurr with Jack's comments. The case can in no way be blamed for Harold's cue warpage, nor is it due to some lack of care on Harold's part. No case can ever (or be expected to) prevent cue warpage (unless the case was hermetically sealed, and temperature and humidity controlled).

Cues warp due to either poor wood selection (grain not parallel, reaction wood etc.)or from poor manufacturing methods. Warpage will show up when severe changes in relative humidity occur, not temperature (although temperature can cause other problems, such as cracked finishes etc.). If a cue warps, and it was not mistreated, then the wood is always to be blamed, not the case or the cue owner. The cue was destined to warp.

I see nothing but quality in Mr. Justices' cases, and would certainly reccommend them to anyone as a fine case for a fine cue.

Tony
(don't blame the case Harold)

Scott Lee
03-05-2002, 09:46 AM
Jerry...I don't know what I am doing differently than you, but every time I access the site I am automatically "logged in", and my name shows up on posts. I NEVER actually type in something to access the board...just click on 'discussion forum' on the home page, and it takes me right here!

Scott

JimS
03-05-2002, 09:56 AM
Same here Scott. I don't log off. Rather than click the log off icon I just switch to wherever I want to go next and the next day when I come back I'm logged in automatically. Regards, JimS

Harold Acosta
03-06-2002, 10:01 PM
My last reply to Mr. Justis, was definitely uncalled for and unwarranted. I trully feel very ashamed of my actions. I definitely went overboard on this issue and I owe everyone, specially to Mr. Jack Justis an apology. I had purchased a good cue and wanted to protect my investment. I wanted the best cue case around and that is why I selected the Jack Justis. I was very proud of the case.

When the cue warped, I mistakenly blamed the case because I didn't know better.

I sincerely hope that Mr. Justis can put this matter away and find it in his heart to somewhat forgive me for my rudeness and unpoliteness.

I cannot express my most sincere regrets about this whole situation and I hope that everyone, most specifically Mr. Jack Justis, accepts my apology.

A very miserable and embarrased Harold Acosta Jr....

JimS
03-06-2002, 10:06 PM
Pride swallowed becomes true humility. Well done Harold. Respectfully, JimS

stickman
03-06-2002, 11:56 PM
There is a place in the Internet options where you can delete cookies, you can even disable cookies. If you don't have cookies stored for your favorite sites, you will need to log in each time. If you have cookies stored, you can return to the site and not have to log in again, if you never logged out. I run a cleaning program on my computer frequently (Evidence Eliminator). It clears my cookies and I have to relog into all my favorite sites after I run it.

03-07-2002, 11:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> As a cuemaker I can concurr with Jack's comments. The case can in no way be blamed for Harold's cue warpage, nor is it due to some lack of care on Harold's part. No case can ever (or be expected to) prevent cue warpage (unless the case was hermetically sealed, and temperature and humidity controlled). (END QUOTE)

FROM INSTROKE - JOHN COLLINS

I take exception to the above comments. A case can certainly contribute to whether a cue warps or is otherwise damaged or not. Tube cases and foam core cavity style cases are made to almost fully enclose the cue in a sealed or semi-sealed enviroment.

Moisture is always present and some fabrics will absorb and retain moisture more than others. If the manufacturer of the case uses a felt like material it will be as if there is a damp cloth wrapped around the cue in a high humidity enviroment.

While this situation may not be directly responsible for warpage it is certainly not ideal. I don't think there are many cuemakers who would reccommend wrapping a cue in a moist cloth and leaving it in a warm enviroment.

I have always practiced what I call primitive research and development. This means I have no money so I just do experiments that don't involve labs. One of these was to take a piece of our fabric liner and a piece of felt(from a competitor's case) and place them both on top of a glass of water left in the sun.

After a few hours the felt is damp to the touch and slightly heavier while our fabric is completely dry and lightweight in comparison to control pieces. I can infer from this that the felt will retain moisture longer and be potentially harmful to the cue.

I have done many such experiments to find out what happens to a cue in a case in certain eviroments. Whether this has any real meaning is irrelevant. I believe that the only true function of a cue case is to protect the cue. That means as well as possible against all things that could harm it.

Thus we have dropped full cases from five story buildings, we have left them out in pouring rain, left hem out in snow, put them under water, did the drive a car over them thingy, hit them with baseball bats, thrown them across the room with the top open...and so on.

So a case can definitely affect the goods inside it. to what degree is entirely debateable and dependent on the construction of the goods themselves.

I believe that before Instroke little attention was paid to the affect cases might have on cues, cosmetically or structurally. Now I believe that consumers are taking a harder look at how well their cues are protected.

I want to state very clearly that I am NOT inferring that storage in Jack's case had anything to do with the warpage of the cue in question. I am only addressing the contention that a cue case has no affect on the contents.

Thank you,

rackmup
03-07-2002, 08:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>"I believe that before Instroke little attention was paid to the affect cases might have on cues, cosmetically or structurally. Now I believe that consumers are taking a harder look at how well their cues are protected."<hr></blockquote>

First, I am NOT trying to debate the validity of the above statement. I am neither involved in the R&amp;D of cases nor the causes of warpage in cues or any other wood product.

I do know that prior to ever learning of "Instroke", I purchased a "Porper" 3X6 case (over 13 years ago) and have had the same three cues in it for at least that long. The tubes are lined with what appears to be a lightweight felt (or something similar) and my cues are as straight as the day I purchased them.

A case does protect a cue to some degree however, I do not have any "hard evidence" as to how much. Soft cases, without tubes, will allow a cue to warp quicker than a hard case with tubes, that I do know.

I think if you weigh the complaints about JJ Cases (very few) you should arrive at the reasonable conclusion that his cases DO protect the cues inside them. The shaft tubes of a JJ case fit tightly while the butt tubes are a little loose. Big deal! The butt on most cues are sealed and finished and that alone should help in the resistance of moisture penetration. It is agreed that the wrap area of the cue is left unsealed (by most cue makers) but short of holding the wrap under a faucet, I doubt that enough moisture will penetrate the wood to cause any significant damage.

I was looking at an Instroke case today while visiting a local retailer and was told by someone in the shop (for a new tip) to "stay away from those". He went onto say the clasps were "weak" and his cue "warped" inside of it (a Schon LTD). I asked how the clasp broke...he said he dropped the case on the clasp and it "snapped off". Was this the case builders fault? Nope. Could the clasp be of better design, considering that cases do get dropped or simply knocked over in the pool hall? You bet.

Do these incidents/comments make the Instroke an inferior case? No. There are too many variables to make that assumption. The same holds true for JJ cases and all other reputable case manufacturers.

None of us (other than the cue owners) know how the cues were taken care of that suffered warpage and the subsequent revealing of that damage here on the CCB.

I've seen beer spilled into an open case that was leaning against the counter in my old room in Phoenix. It wasn't a lot but enough to do damage if a cue was placed inside it and exposed to other outside elements (himidity, heat, cold, etc.) The owner of the case was oblivious to the "accident" until he was told by the "beer spiller". Imagine if the cue had been placed inside the case without warning!

I don't really know where I am headed with this rambling but I for one, know that if my cues can survive this long in an old Porper 3X6, a JJ or Instroke case should afford you the same, if not better, years of service.

Regards and respects to the case makers defending their products here at the CCB,

Ken (gonna buy a JJ case and brag to all that will listen!)

03-07-2002, 09:50 PM
Harold,
Life is way too long to hold grudges. What you did took a lot of courage. Apology accepted! Hope to see you in Valley Forge.

Harold Acosta
03-07-2002, 10:27 PM
Thank you for replying to this post as well as to my private message. I certainly have peace of mind now that I know we have put this issue in the past.

Thank you Mr. Jack Justis.

03-08-2002, 12:20 AM
Why would a cue warp faster in a soft case than in a hard one? If the cue is made correctly then actually it needs no case at all for any reason other than simple transportation.

Everyone has a story about cues that warped whilst in x-case. I have many testimonials of people who claim that their cues warped in other cases but never in Instrokes. So it goes both ways.

I carried my Tim Scruggs in my Instroke soft case for years without any damage along with my Olivier and my Schoen.

The fact that your cues did not warp after 13 years is a testament to the good construction of the cues AND the case. I also never had anything happen to any cue carried in any Porper I ever owned, or in any Justis that I own.

That still does not mean that the cues are not somehow acted upon differently in different cases. Simple logic dictates that anything wrapped around a cue will cuase the cue to do different things in different situations.

If I go to the hardware store and get some pipe insulation and tape a cue inside it and then take a towel and tape another identical cue inside it and submerge both in boiling water for five minutes which cue do you think will have the higher rate of survival?

I can guarantee you that if I were to put your cues into "SOME" of the cases on the market and let them sit over a humidifier for an hour or so and put identical cues in an Instroke over the same humidifier you would then appreciate very much the extra layer of protection we build into the case.

As to the clasps, Jack is right, the clasps are a weak point and we are looking at different solutions. Too bad the guy at the local retail shop didn't tell you that we have never once in ten years refused a repair and that all repairs are done for free.

As to the warped cue - well, if Jack wasn't at fault for Harold's(also a Schoen) then neither are we :-)) Funny that the guy didn't call and complain. On the rare occassions that we do mess up and something in an Instroke damages a cue we pay the repair costs, like the $150 I just spent to have two Cognescienti shafts refinished even though we were only partially responsible for the mar onthe finish.

My personal cues stay in an Instroke case in my car every day all the time, rain, snow or shine, summer or winter. The only time they are out is when I am playing.

So to get back to the original point. Cases can affect cues. Buy a cheap case, and by that I mean a poorly made one and you will experience the effects within a short time. Buy a good one and you will be protected day-in and day-out for the life of the case.

I have said many times, on RSB, that I consider Jack Justis and Dan Whitten to be fine casemakers and that I would carry theirs if I didn't make cases. You should brag when you own a Justis and be proud of it. I am proud of mine and I wouldn't trade it or sell it.

Thanks,

TonyM
03-08-2002, 01:56 AM
John posted:

"I take exception to the above comments. A case can certainly contribute to whether a cue warps or is otherwise damaged or not. Tube cases and foam core cavity style cases are made to almost fully enclose the cue in a sealed or semi-sealed enviroment."

I understand your point John, but perhaps you missed mine. While a case can certainly help protect a cue, no production case that I know of creates a true hermetically sealed environment. As such, the interior of the case will over time reach the same conditions as the ambient air, such as temperature and humidity. If the cue is constructed of faulty materials, and is exposed to a significant change in relative humidity (even if the change is slow and gradual) then the cue might warp, no matter what case it is stored in. Can a poor quality case speed up this process? Yes. Could a poor quality case actually cotribute to this process? Yes.

But is the case the cause of this process? No. Wooden cues warp when unstable wood normalizes to an ambient condition that is outside of the conditions under which it was manufactured.

So I'll state my point again.

No case can be the cause of warpage of a cue. However, a poor quality case could hasten this process along.

Tony

TonyM
03-08-2002, 02:09 AM
John writes:

"Why would a cue warp faster in a soft case than in a hard one? If the cue is made correctly then actually it needs no case at all for any reason other than simple transportation."

You are correct. If a cue is made correctly (and more importantly is made from correctly selected wood!) then it will not warp regardless of the case used (or not!). I own a 100 year old Maple house cue, that was never stored in a case. It is still as straight today as the day it was made! I expect it will stay straight for another 100 years!

For warp resistance, a case should act as a buffer between changes in relative humidity. This is what a finish does when applied to wood as well. This is how the fiberglass cladding works on a cuetec (well they do warp also I know, but compared to many of the other low cost Asian imports, they stay straighter longer).

If the case can maintain a relative humidity around the cue that is close to the conditions used during the manufacture, then even a cue with poor wood selection will not warp.
But the best that any case can do is to minimize the changes in relative humidity, not eliminate them entirely. If these minimum changes stay close enough to the original conditions used during manufacture, then the cue might stay straight. But over time, even the best case cannot prevent a poor quality piece of wood from moving, if the change in relative humidity is large enough.

But granted, a good case should do a better job than a poor case.

Tony

03-08-2002, 02:42 AM
John,

I live in the Philippines and its pretty warm (read as HOT) here in this side of the World, Since I want to leave my cue in the car, the car sits in a parking e all day, so you can imagine the temp inside the car when its nice and sunny ..its not warm ..its HOT !!!....Its so hot you can't touch the streeing wheel during the summer...you have to open the AC for a few minutes before going inside the car........I hear that Harold Cue which was he stored in an Instroke did not get warm....... although I do not know the Temp where Harold lives...

A few months ago I tried a simple experiment, I bought some Insulation, the White colored ones with the silver foil lining, normally used for roofs....the ones I bought was roughly 0.5 inch thick and I wrapped the cue case with three layers of this stuff...the ends were covered with 2 inches of the same material...Place the cue in the car, waited one hour and then I opened the case...the cue was warm.....still straight though......

My question is... does INSTROKE wrapped the case in a special type of insulation material that prevents heat from reaching the cue ? If so does all models have the same feature ?

thanks



****************************

from Instroke...

My personal cues stay in an Instroke case in my car every day all the time, rain, snow or shine, summer or winter. The only time they are out is when I am playing.

*******************

TomBrooklyn
03-08-2002, 06:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> If these minimum (humidity) changes stay close enough to the original conditions used during manufacture, then the cue might stay straight. But over time, even the best case cannot prevent a poor quality piece of wood from moving, if the change in relative humidity is large enough.<hr></blockquote>Tony, your comments made me wonder if it was a good idea to use cues that were made in an area with a humidity level similar to the area you will be using it in. For instance, would there be a higher risk of a cue warping in Seattle if it was made in Arizona, than if it was made in Seattle?

rackmup
03-08-2002, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>If I go to the hardware store and get some pipe insulation and tape a cue inside it and then take a towel and tape another identical cue inside it and submerge both in boiling water for five minutes which cue do you think will have the higher rate of survival?<hr></blockquote>

If you do this, I'll suggest having you committed! This isn't a "real life" situation so it really has no bearing on the subject.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Why would a cue warp faster in a soft case than in a hard one?<hr></blockquote>

A soft case will protect the cue depending on how the case is stored. Lay it down flat and you will PROBABLY be okay. Lean it up against something and you increase the chances of warpage, if stored this way over a long period of time.

I didn't mean to imply you don't have a good product or that you don't offer excellent customer service. In fact, I told the guy to send it back and referenced your posts at the CCB. He said it was "no big deal", indicating that his cue woes were probably more his fault than that of any case.

Every consumer has different expectations than the next. You should know this. People are a wierd breed of animal.

Regards,

Ken

TonyM
03-08-2002, 08:25 AM
Tom wrote:

"For instance, would there be a higher risk of a cue warping in Seattle if it was made in Arizona, than if it was made in Seattle?"

The risk is higher yes. Now that does not mean that a cue made in an arid climate will always warp if taken to a moist climate. But the risk is higher. And the reason is that the wood machined in the arid climate might not have been subjected to higher humidity levels, so the cuemaker might not know if there is a potential problem or not. It can be what is called in the manufacturing business as a "hidden" problem (a potential problem that you are not aware of is worse than one you are aware of).

I worked for a company in Toronto that was importing cues. We imported hundreds of Snooker cues from England. Most arrived straight, but very, very, few stayed straight after being exposed to the dry climate of a Canadian Winter. The avarage was less than 1 in ten to stay straight. Of cues we imported from Tiawan (pool cues) easily over 30% warped within the first two weeks of arrival.

When the climate conditions in the intended destination are significantly different than the manufacturing location, the chance of failure is much higher. The best way that I know of to prevent this, is to use wood that has been humidity "cycled" or seasoned within the desired ranges expected in the destination area. I've heard cuemakers discuss wood stabilizers and other tricks, but in my experience, over the long run, these only delay the inevitable. I think there is no substitute for well seasoned and selected wood.

Some other ways to combat these shortcomings of wood are moisture barrier claddings (like Cuetec's fiberglass coatings) and laminated shafts (so that it is unlikely that all of the pieces will tend to move in the same direction).

I once owned a Snooker cue (English, Ash and Ebony) that would be straight in the summer, but would always warp in the winter every year, just like clockwork!

Tony

03-08-2002, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> John posted:

"I take exception to the above comments. A case can certainly contribute to whether a cue warps or is otherwise damaged or not. Tube cases and foam core cavity style cases are made to almost fully enclose the cue in a sealed or semi-sealed enviroment."

I understand your point John, but perhaps you missed mine. While a case can certainly help protect a cue, no production case that I know of creates a true hermetically sealed environment. As such, the interior of the case will over time reach the same conditions as the ambient air, such as temperature and humidity. If the cue is constructed of faulty materials, and is exposed to a significant change in relative humidity (even if the change is slow and gradual) then the cue might warp, no matter what case it is stored in. Can a poor quality case speed up this process? Yes. Could a poor quality case actually cotribute to this process? Yes.

But is the case the cause of this process? No. Wooden cues warp when unstable wood normalizes to an ambient condition that is outside of the conditions under which it was manufactured.

So I'll state my point again.

No case can be the cause of warpage of a cue. However, a poor quality case could hasten this process along.

Tony
<hr></blockquote>


I didn't miss your point and I agree with you. I am just in the camp that believes that even a case which is not hermetically sealed can provide more protection against existing exterior climatic conditions through a well engineered interior during transport than simply transporting without a case or with a poorly designed one.

03-08-2002, 10:59 AM
To Ken,

Probably the strangest thing I have learned over the years of doing this is just how many strange situations cue cases find themselves in. As a casemaker who has attended just about every major amateuer event over the last five years I have had the opportunity to hear so many amazing stories that I no longer wonder whether "could this ever happen" or "what are the odds that x will happen."

Some examples - Real Life Stuff - one lady's car burned with the cue cases inside. Cue intact with minor bubbling. - One lady ran over her case - cues okay/case minor scratches - One gentleman had a backboard skip down the stairs and nail his case directly in the center. Cues okay. - One customer crashed her scooter and the case bounced across the highway. Cues and customer okay. - One gentelman reported that his wife tried to drop kick the case and bounced off on her butt. Cues okay/Marriage??? - One customer tripped and his case landed in a puddle and floated to the other side! Cues dry and okay. - One guy's case slipped under the bumper as he was letting the jack down and the case supported the car. - Cues and case okay.

Some of these things were brain dead actions and some of these were simply accidents. The point for me and the reason I build cue cases is simply to protect against as many things as I can think of. Simply building a transport vessel was not a consideration.

Jack and I have publicly disagreed about the interior construction before and he feels one way and I feel another. I truly feel that Instroke interiors offer the best overall protection on the market today in a functional product. The real best protection is a Zero Haliburton case with a pressure resistance of 2000lbs per square inch and close to being hermetically sealed.

And there are other cases available that would work for storage and transport of a cue that would protect better than a Haliburton, Instroke or Justis. Only they are not practical for daily use. And then the real question is what balance between protection, function and design is desired and even really needed?

That is the question for each individual customer to decide themselves. The problem is that since we harp on the protection issue constantly - our competiton, namely the competition that copies our designs also uses our words to sell truly inferior and harmful cases. I don't consider Jack Justis or Dan Whitten to be competition. I consider them to be my peers and I know that a customer who has a Justis is just as likely to own an Instroke and vice versa.

So now you have my take on these issues and more can be found at the website. Choose well and never look back!

03-08-2002, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Benjamin:</font><hr>
John,

My question is... does INSTROKE wrapped the case in a special type of insulation material that prevents heat from reaching the cue ? If so does all models have the same feature ?

thanks

<hr></blockquote>

Yes. The tubes which surround the cues are insulating barriers as well as the backing for the leather and the foam rubber inside the tubes and lining the interior walls of the case.

What insulation does is simply keep a temperature barrier between enviroments, keeps warm in and cold out or cold in and warm out. THe idea is that with insulation in a case the cue can slowly acclimate to change rather than be subjected to a harsher transition. But insulation is not temperature control in that it will not prevent a cue from getting hot in a car. It will only prevent it from getting hot as fast as without the insulation.

All Instroke tube cases feature the same level of protection.

Drake
03-08-2002, 11:14 AM
The only two cases I use are a George 2/4 and a Justis 3/6. I have never had any trouble with either. My Justis REALLY turns a lot of heads. Jack was a true gentleman. I couldn't make up my mind on the size and options on my case. As any true Cue Maker tailors a cue to a player. Jack asked me questions on the use of the case and what kind of look I was going for? He could have easily pushed for all of the upgrades but instead he was honest and forthcoming on every option. My case buying experince with Jack was great. Thanx...Drake

rackmup
03-08-2002, 01:56 PM
He asked:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>My question is... does INSTROKE wrapped the case in a special type of insulation material that prevents heat from reaching the cue ? <hr></blockquote>

You replied:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Yes. The tubes which surround the cues are insulating barriers as well as the backing for the leather and the foam rubber inside the tubes and lining the interior walls of the case.<hr></blockquote>

This isn't what he asked. The material that he described has an "R" rating. I've seen, admired and PURCHASED your case (yesterday, from Hawley's Billiards in Texas, as a gift for my son) and see NO "special type of insulation material" other than cloth and foam rubber, neither of which are designed as a form of insulation. <font color=red>Protection</font color=red>? Yes.

Not wanting to nitpik but let's be honest here! Neither your case OR JJ cases have any true insulating qualities. Leather, vinyl, pvc tubes, felt, cloth, nylon, foam and other common materials used in the building of these cases fail to "insulate" per the common definition of the word.

Buy a good case from Porper, Instroke, Whitten or JJ and you will be pleased AS LONG AS YOU EXERCISE COMMON SENSE IN THE CARE OF YOUR CUE AND CASE.

Regards,

Ken

cheesemouse
03-08-2002, 02:19 PM
20 years ago I bought a six point black ebony that, I believe R/Black made. I paid $500 for it, alot of cash at that time for a cue. One night while sharing one in a parking lot I drove off leaving the cue on the roof of my car. Needless to say I never saw that stick again. It was a blessing in disquise as from that day forward I have not been an equiptment freak. Now I worry about playing better pool not equiptment. After reading this post I realize that night was just another good roll.

03-09-2002, 01:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> He asked:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;My question is... does INSTROKE wrapped the case in a special type of insulation material that prevents heat from reaching the cue ? &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You replied:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;Yes. The tubes which surround the cues are insulating barriers as well as the backing for the leather and the foam rubber inside the tubes and lining the interior walls of the case.&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This isn't what he asked. The material that he described has an "R" rating. I've seen, admired and PURCHASED your case (yesterday, from Hawley's Billiards in Texas, as a gift for my son) and see NO "special type of insulation material" other than cloth and foam rubber, neither of which are designed as a form of insulation. <font color=red>Protection</font color=red>? Yes.

Not wanting to nitpik but let's be honest here! Neither your case OR JJ cases have any true insulating qualities. Leather, vinyl, pvc tubes, felt, cloth, nylon, foam and other common materials used in the building of these cases fail to "insulate" per the common definition of the word.

Buy a good case from Porper, Instroke, Whitten or JJ and you will be pleased AS LONG AS YOU EXERCISE COMMON SENSE IN THE CARE OF YOUR CUE AND CASE.

Regards,

Ken

I am glad you are asking the hard questions. The facts are that PVC is an insulator and a moisture barrier.

Apply heat to the outside of a tube and the interior temperature will be lower than the outside temperature for a signifigant amount of time. The PVC is not a conductor of heat nor is it a conductor of cold. Thus when the cue is placed into a tube in a climate controlled enviroment such as an air conditioned house and then placed in a hot car the interior of the tube will keep the cue closer to the temperature of the climate controlled room than the temperature of the hot car for a period of time consistent with the insulating properties of the tube. Without the PVC tube the cue would likely reach the temperature of the car interior very quickly.

If I seal water in a tube such as the one we use and water in a thin plastic bag and leave them out to freeze the water in the tube will take longer to reach 32 degrees and freeze than the water in the plastic bag. Conversely the water in the tube will also take longer to thaw than the water in the plastic bag. Given that this is a true statement, how can you then say that PVC tubing is not an insulator?

I answered the question truthfully and accurately. Just because one type of insulation is flexible and the other is rigid does not mean that they don't both work. I am all for truth in advertising and I will gladly prove any claims made about Instroke cases by us at any venue we are at.

I am not above tearing a case apart to show exactly how it is made and what each component is intended for.

For more information on plastics, here is a good site:

http://www.americanplasticscouncil.org/benefits/about_plastics/primer.html

A company that explains the insulating properties of heat-shrinked plastic tubing can be found here:

http://www.insulationplastics.com/FAQ_Frame.htm

I hope this adequately answers the question raised.

Thank you,




<hr></blockquote>

03-09-2002, 02:18 AM
Ken wrote:

Not wanting to nitpik but let's be honest here! Neither your case OR JJ cases have any true insulating qualities. Leather, vinyl, pvc tubes, felt, cloth, nylon, foam and other common materials used in the building of these cases fail to "insulate" per the common definition of the word.

/quote]

Ok Ken now you got me thinking that I should post some data. So I went to K-Mart and purchased an indoor outdoor thermometer to do some more homegrown R&amp;D. This electronic thermometer has a sensor on the body for indoor temperature and a long (insulated) wire with another sensor for outdoor temperatures.

For our purposes the indoor sensor(S-1) will be for the room temperature and the outdoor sensor (S-2) will be for the interior temperature of the tubing.

For this experiment we used a lined Instroke tube with the foam barrier sealed into the bottom and with the top open and no cue inside. We also used a fully assembled Instroke case with no cue inside but with the lid shut to provide the maximum closure that Instroke cases provide.

To apply heat we stood the tubes and the case directly over the heating vent and cranked the thermostat up to 90 degrees.

The starting temperature was about 78 degrees. We waited until the interior and exterior temperature was the same to turn on the heat.

The results:

1. Using the tube only - the temperature increased for both the interior and exterior with the exterior temperature increasing faster than the interior temperature. When the difference was about 3 degrees the temperatures climbed steadily until reaching 92 degrees exterior temperature. After thirty more minutes the interior temperature was a little less than 2 degrees different than the exterior temperature and less.

2. Using the fully assembled Instroke case - starting at 78 degrees. The exterior temperature rapidly rose but the interior temperature rose slowly. After 30 minutes there was a 14 degree difference between the interior and exterior temperature. After another 30 minutes the room temperature had reached 94 degrees and the interior temperature of the case was 87 and slowly rising.

At this point we were too hot so I left the case where it was and turned onthe air conditoning and set the thermostat for 70 degrees. After 15 minutes of cold air the exterior temperature measured at 74.5 and the interior read was 85 degrees. The difference seemed to level off at about 10 degrees. After 40 minutes the exterior temperature was 71.4 and the interior temperature was 78.1.

Conclusion: As hypothesized, the insulating properties of the various components of the Instroke case combine to insure that the interior temperature will reach the exterior temperature much slower than in a case without the same combination of insulators.

Should you want to repeat this experiment I reccomend the ACURITE Hygrometer/Thermometer availible at K-Mart for $19.99.

I sincerely hope that this lays to rest any doubt about our claims of insulation protection against sudden temperature change.

Tnak you for your indulgence and the challenge. And especially thank you for being an interested consumer.

I am sure that the eggheads among us can decipher the data for the exact effects upon various configurations but my point was proven adequately I think.

Whew!

Thanks all,


John Collins
Instroke Sports LLC
http://www.instroke.com

03-09-2002, 05:22 PM
Actually, a cue will warp when it loses humidity. So the idea is to lower as much as possible the level of humidity when you you stabilize the wood, but without altering the wood fibre. Usually maple is dried and stabilized between 6% and 8% which corresponds to the level of humidity in North America (This is actually why most snooker cues from England warp after a period of time in North America, the humidity rate is much higher over there). We found over the years that stabilizing the wood at 4% did not alter the wood fiber and does prevent warping. So you don't have to worry about a cue that was made in Arizona, but can have some worries if you do live in Arizona.

Thierry Layani
www.layanicues.com (http://www.layanicues.com)

rackmup
03-09-2002, 09:19 PM
PVC tubing wasn't designed as an "insulation". It was designed to be a "carrier" or a "housing". PVC is predominantly used as a carrier of water or as a housing for wiring.

My point is, a case, regardless of manufacturer, is designed to protect a cue from outside elements like moisture, heat, cold and impact.

To place a case on a heater vent isn't a true life application of what a cue is or can be exposed to.

Want to conduct a test that is "apples to apples"? Take two cues manufactured back-to-back from the same stock, place in identical cases and transfer both from an air conditioned house to a hot car during the summer and then, from a heated house to a cold car during the winter. Store the same two case/cue combinations in a closet for a few weeks (let's pretend you are on vacation for a couple of weeks!) standing up and again, laying flat, in your home. Next, throw them in the trunk of your car during winter and summer for a day or two. Drop the case a few times and let someone kick it a few more. Step on it, sit on it and take it out for a few beers.

This is what cues/cases are exposed to. NOT thermometers, heater vents, ice chests or NRA meetings.

Do this for a year and report the findings. Then consider all of the variables like the different areas of the world cues/cases are purchased in.

Only then will you have "data" that matters to real life pool players and the people that spend their hard-earned cash on cues/cases.

Regards,

Ken (owns an Instroke case and will own a JJ in the near future AND has confidence in BOTH as far as a protector of his cues, providing he doesn't expect the case to work miracles without his help)

TonyM
03-10-2002, 02:23 AM
"Actually, a cue will warp when it loses humidity"

I think you mean "could" warp Thierry? Not every reduction in humidity will always result in warpage as you know.

And to be correct, it is the net change in relative humidity, either up or down that can lead to warpage. I've seen it go both ways.

Tony