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1Time
02-09-2008, 02:26 AM
A pool cue tip shaped like which of the following is most like the shape of a standard 2 1/4" diameter cue ball?

A. Dime
B. Nickel
C. Quarter
D. Half Dollar

I will provide the correct answer and an easy way to determine this for yourself if anyone wants to know or posts the wrong answer.

Billy_Bob
02-09-2008, 08:44 AM
D-half dollar.

And I kind of wonder why tips are not in the same shape as the cue ball? Anyone ever try this?

My experience is that a dime shape is better, but you would think that a cue ball shape would be better???

1Time
02-09-2008, 09:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> D-half dollar.<hr /></blockquote>
Correct.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>And I kind of wonder why tips are not in the same shape as the cue ball? Anyone ever try this?<hr /></blockquote>
To approximate the shape of the cue ball is the most common rule of thumb or reasoning that I have ever heard for choosing the shape of a cue's tip. And yes, I have tried shooting with a tip that was approximately the same roundness of the cue ball.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>My experience is that a dime shape is better, but you would think that a cue ball shape would be better???<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, I do think a cue ball shaped tip is better in some respects than a more rounded tip.

And not to disagree with your determination that a dime is better, but better at what? Imparting more spin? Imparting less spin? Shooting the cue ball straighter? Miscuing less? Better in general for your shooting style and game?

By the way for those who were not sure of the answer to this quiz, here's a hint. A cue ball shaped tip would be even flatter than the shape or roundness of an Eisenhower dollar.

dr_dave
02-09-2008, 11:31 AM
A flatter tip (e.g., half-dollar shape) is better for center-ball hit accuracy. A dime shape is better for applying English. For more info, see the bottom paragraph (and the articles referenced) on page 6 of TP B.1 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_B-1.pdf). I can't think of any useful advantage to having the tip be the exact same shape as the cue ball (other than the fact that the tip would be flatter than a half dollar).

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> D-half dollar.

And I kind of wonder why tips are not in the same shape as the cue ball? Anyone ever try this?

My experience is that a dime shape is better, but you would think that a cue ball shape would be better???<hr /></blockquote>

JoeW
02-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Friends tell me I shoot with a pencil, not a cue stick. I have a dime shape on an 11.? mm Predator Z shaft.

My explanation (rationalization) is that I able able to be more accurate with regard to where I hit (stroke) the CB. When I compare larger sticks with a larger curvature on the tip, I find that my accuracy decreases with regard to pocketing and more importantly with regard to position.

I have made many attempts to use a larger diameter cue tip and keep returning to my "pencil."

Jal
02-09-2008, 01:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>...
And not to disagree with your determination that a dime is better, but better at what? Imparting more spin? Imparting less spin? Shooting the cue ball straighter? Miscuing less? Better in general for your shooting style and game? <hr /></blockquote>A flatter tip is potentially better at producing an accurate spin/speed ratio based on the micrometer principle. With a flatter tip you have to move the center of the shaft farther from centerball to get the same spin/speed ratio than with a more curved tip. This maps a relatively larger set of center shaft offsets onto the set of actual contact point offsets, just as a micrometer maps large thimble movements onto small spindle displacements.

But there are several problems with this. If the tip were in fact the shape of the cueball, to get maximum spin (contact point offset of 1/2R) you would have to point the center of the shaft at the edge of the cueball. This would be a prohibitive problem when trying to produce maximum draw, as well as various amounts of lesser draw.

Secondly, it becomes harder to judge where you're aiming the cueball in relation to the object ball, as JoeW points out.

Thirdly, the shaft is only about a half-inch in diameter. With a flatter tip, the center of the contact area moves out toward the edge of the tip, or beyond it, depending on how flat it is. The edge doesn't hold chalk that well, or for whatever reason, when it gets involved, miscues occur.

And finally, a more subtle disadvantage is that a flatter tip produces more squirt, again based on the micrometer principle. As the ball rotates during the stick/ball collision, the shaft has to move more to the side for every degree of rotation of the ball. Its lateral velocity is accordingly greater, and thus more squirt is produced.

Except for centerball hits, as Dr. Dave indicated, any potential benefit of increased accuracy of the spin/speed ratio is outweighed by these other things.

Jim

wolfdancer
02-09-2008, 01:48 PM
I've decided then to abandon my idea of inventing a .... 2 1/8" d.cue

JoeW
02-09-2008, 03:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I've decided then to abandon my idea of inventing a .... 2 1/8" d.cue <hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like a good conclusion to me. I like your sense of humor. When you find yourself laughing and there is no one in the room, the writer has got to have a lot of creativity. You have now caught me a few times -- keep it up /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Can't you just see some nerd walking into the pool hall with a reverse baseball bat and say, " I got it figured out." Please don't anyone take offense, It is just a great image.

pooltchr
02-09-2008, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I've decided then to abandon my idea of inventing a .... 2 1/8" d.cue <hr /></blockquote>

Interesting concept...but it might be a little difficult to get much draw on the cue ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

Ralph_Kramden
02-09-2008, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> A pool cue tip shaped like which of the following is most like the shape of a standard 2 1/4" diameter cue ball?

A. Dime
B. Nickel
C. Quarter
D. Half Dollar

I will provide the correct answer and an easy way to determine this for yourself if anyone wants to know or posts the wrong answer. <hr /></blockquote>
I once saw someone driving the tip of a house cue into the floor several times. I asked what the hell he was doing. He answered that a flat tip broke the balls apart better... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Guess he would answer:

E. Dollar Bill

Sid_Vicious
02-09-2008, 04:00 PM
Easy answer, just shape the tip to a dime to begin with if you aren't sure, then NEVER scuff or shape or pick(unless you happen to be a realy soft tip lover.) Your individual stroke and game will "work" the tip to your own personal feel, adjusting to side or mostly center ball you use. It is that easy, let the tip and, you, MAKE it what it wants to be. Far too many players hack and saw on their tips for an edge, all BS, when in reality, you are already making it perfect just by playing your own game. Once you see the eventual shape the tip takes, have the next tip shaped as such. The main thing to point out here is that your game will "make" the shape it wants. Don't F-with it, it'll work into it's own shape, be it more or less of it's own radius for your game...sid

wolfdancer
02-09-2008, 04:04 PM
I found your own vignette, about your "redhead" to be both sad and humorous...not sure if poignant is an apt descriptive. I believe these fond and humorous memories help us in many ways...

dr_dave
02-09-2008, 04:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I've decided then to abandon my idea of inventing a .... 2 1/8" d.cue<hr /></blockquote>I am sorry if I am partially responsible for you giving up your dream, but I think you have made a wise decision. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,
Dave (the crusher of dreams)

dr_dave
02-09-2008, 05:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Friends tell me I shoot with a pencil, not a cue stick. I have a dime shape on an 11.? mm Predator Z shaft.<hr /></blockquote>I also shoot with a 11.75 mm Predator Z. I also use a dime shape on the tip. Maybe we should create some kind of club or support group ("pencil pushers ... unite"). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr>My explanation (rationalization) is that I able able to be more accurate with regard to where I hit (stroke) the CB. When I compare larger sticks with a larger curvature on the tip, I find that my accuracy decreases with regard to pocketing and more importantly with regard to position.

I have made many attempts to use a larger diameter cue tip and keep returning to my "pencil."<hr /></blockquote>Tip size and curvature are two different things. It seems like you (and I) prefer a small tip (i.e., small shaft diameter) with lots of curvature. Some people prefer larger tips (i.e., larger shaft diameter). Most people who use English, seem to prefer the rounder "dime" shape for curvature, regardless of the shaft diameter (tip size).

Regards,
Dave

1Time
02-09-2008, 08:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> A flatter tip (e.g., half-dollar shape) is better for center-ball hit accuracy. A dime shape is better for applying English. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree. This is true.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I can't think of any useful advantage to having the tip be the exact same shape as the cue ball (other than the fact that the tip would be flatter than a half dollar).<hr /></blockquote>
Compare two pool sticks with tips of the same diameter. One is more rounded, for example, like a dime. The other is less rounded, for example, like a cue ball. When aiming each with English, for example, 1/2 tip left of center at the 9 o'clock position, the contact point of the more rounded tip will be farther away from the cue ball's vertical center than the contact point of the less rounded tip.

So what advantage would a tip shaped like a cue ball have over a tip shaped like a half dollar? It would have the same advantage it has over a tip shaped like an Eisenhower dollar, a quarter, nickel, and dime, but in varying degrees.

1Time
02-09-2008, 08:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Friends tell me I shoot with a pencil, not a cue stick. I have a dime shape on an 11.? mm Predator Z shaft.

My explanation (rationalization) is that I able able to be more accurate with regard to where I hit (stroke) the CB. When I compare larger sticks with a larger curvature on the tip, I find that my accuracy decreases with regard to pocketing and more importantly with regard to position.

I have made many attempts to use a larger diameter cue tip and keep returning to my "pencil."
<hr /></blockquote>
You certainly are not alone. Whatever works best for you. I too prefer shooting with a smaller diameter shaft than the standard 13mm, but nothing much less than 12.75mm.

1Time
02-09-2008, 08:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>
A flatter tip is potentially better at producing an accurate spin/speed ratio based on the micrometer principle. With a flatter tip you have to move the center of the shaft farther from centerball to get the same spin/speed ratio than with a more curved tip. This maps a relatively larger set of center shaft offsets onto the set of actual contact point offsets, just as a micrometer maps large thimble movements onto small spindle displacements.

But there are several problems with this. If the tip were in fact the shape of the cueball, to get maximum spin (contact point offset of 1/2R) you would have to point the center of the shaft at the edge of the cueball. This would be a prohibitive problem when trying to produce maximum draw, as well as various amounts of lesser draw.

Secondly, it becomes harder to judge where you're aiming the cueball in relation to the object ball, as JoeW points out.

Thirdly, the shaft is only about a half-inch in diameter. With a flatter tip, the center of the contact area moves out toward the edge of the tip, or beyond it, depending on how flat it is. The edge doesn't hold chalk that well, or for whatever reason, when it gets involved, miscues occur.

And finally, a more subtle disadvantage is that a flatter tip produces more squirt, again based on the micrometer principle. As the ball rotates during the stick/ball collision, the shaft has to move more to the side for every degree of rotation of the ball. Its lateral velocity is accordingly greater, and thus more squirt is produced.

Except for centerball hits, as Dr. Dave indicated, any potential benefit of increased accuracy of the spin/speed ratio is outweighed by these other things.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>
My response to your post is the same as the one I just made above where I quoted dr_dave.

1Time
02-09-2008, 08:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Interesting concept...but it might be a little difficult to get much draw on the cue ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
I thought the same thing when I first time saw a guy using a cue with a 14mm shaft, but it seemed to work just fine for him.

JoeW
02-09-2008, 10:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Friends tell me I shoot with a pencil, not a cue stick. I have a dime shape on an 11.? mm Predator Z shaft.<hr /></blockquote>I also shoot with a 11.75 mm Predator Z. I also use a dime shape on the tip. Maybe we should create some kind of club or support group ("pencil pushers ... unite"). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'll buy that. Looks like we are not alone. Pencil pushers of the world unite. That image is almost as good as the guy with a baseball bat. Can't you see us all walking into the hall with those tiny cue shafts, Saying, "We got the answer."

1Time
02-10-2008, 12:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> I once saw someone driving the tip of a house cue into the floor several times. I asked what the hell he was doing. He answered that a flat tip broke the balls apart better... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Guess he would answer:

E. Dollar Bill <hr /></blockquote>
I suppose he would. By the way, it is easier to more consistently break big with a flatter tip than it is with a rounder tip.

Coincidently, the first guy I met who used a flat tip was banging the tip of a bar cue on the floor in a bar as he explained it helped him shoot straighter. That was over 20 years ago.

The last guy I met who used a flat tip was last year. He owned 7 or 8 cues with Talisman medium tips ranging from flat to dime shaped. He insisted the flat tip helped him shoot straighter and he preferred shooting with it over his other cues for that reason. He could not draw the ball very well and was an above average player, but he did shoot a very straight stick. However, I'm certain if he used a more rounded tip and learned to move the cue ball around better, he could be a very good player. I shot with his flat tipped cue and with two of his other cues with rounded tips. I found it easier to shoot straight with his flat tipped cue than the other two cues shaped about like a dime. Of course it was much easier for me to draw and move the cue ball around with the cues with rounded tips, and I preferred shooting with them over the flat tipped cue.

av84fun
02-10-2008, 12:18 AM
1Time [ QUOTE ]
Compare two pool sticks with tips of the same diameter. One is more rounded, for example, like a dime. The other is less rounded, for example, like a cue ball. When aiming each with English, for example, 1/2 tip left of center at the 9 o'clock position, the contact point of the more rounded tip will be farther away from the cue ball's vertical center than the contact point of the less rounded tip. <hr /></blockquote>

Right. Stated another way, using the dime radius permits the application of more spin without having to move the cue stick as far off the vertical center of the CB which introduces aiming issues.

I will defer to Dave on this but I also suspect that by moving the cue's WEIGHT further off the vertical center, you would also induce more squirt...all other things being equal.

Now, move the cue from 9 o'clock english to 6 o'clock draw. You will see that the same thing holds true...that the contact point using the dime radius will be LOWER and therefore, you can induce more back spin at a given pace relative to a less rounded tip.

I am firmly in the dime radius camp and am quite sure that Predator ships all shafts with dime radius tips. In fact, in spite of all their other heavily touted shaft engineering techniques, they specifically attribute the dime radius tip as playing a significant role in the reduction of squirt.

"Predator research has clearly shown that a dime radius (or shape of a dime) will produce 5 percent to 10 percent less cue ball deflection than the more commonly used nickel shape. The cue ball deflection is reduced because the dime radius centralizes the hit to the center, or strong part, of the shaft."



Regards,
Jim

1Time
02-10-2008, 02:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Easy answer, just shape the tip to a dime to begin with if you aren't sure, then NEVER scuff or shape or pick(unless you happen to be a realy soft tip lover.) Your individual stroke and game will "work" the tip to your own personal feel, adjusting to side or mostly center ball you use. It is that easy, let the tip and, you, MAKE it what it wants to be. Far too many players hack and saw on their tips for an edge, all BS, when in reality, you are already making it perfect just by playing your own game. Once you see the eventual shape the tip takes, have the next tip shaped as such. The main thing to point out here is that your game will "make" the shape it wants. Don't F-with it, it'll work into it's own shape, be it more or less of it's own radius for your game...sid <hr /></blockquote>
This is great advise for a vast majority of pool players. It's been my experience that a tip shaped in this way plays very well. Such a tip will appear much less rounded in the center, and it will gradually and increasingly appear more rounded away from its center. For example, the very center of the tip may have a relatively flat curve like a cue ball with the tip's edge curved like a dime or even more so. Tips shaped in this way will look similar but not the same since since tips are different and we don't all shoot the same.

dr_dave
02-10-2008, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Compare two pool sticks with tips of the same diameter. One is more rounded, for example, like a dime. The other is less rounded, for example, like a cue ball. When aiming each with English, for example, 1/2 tip left of center at the 9 o'clock position, the contact point of the more rounded tip will be farther away from the cue ball's vertical center than the contact point of the less rounded tip.<hr /></blockquote>Good point. FYI, I have several useful illustrations of this in my July '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf) and my January '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/jan08.pdf).

"Tips of English" is different for different size shafts and for different tip shapes. That's why I prefer using "percentage English" based on the center of the actual tip contact point area ("patch").

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-10-2008, 11:39 AM
dr_dave [ QUOTE ]
Tips of English" is different for different size shafts and for different tip shapes. That's why I prefer using "percentage English" based on the center of the actual tip contact point area ("patch").<hr /></blockquote>

EXCELLENT point! "Tips of english" is a WIDELY misunderstood term.

As you know, because ball and tip have rounded surfaces, when the tip is offset, say, to the left and the right edge of the tip is adjacent to the vertical centerline, some learned people refer to that as "1 tip left." But it is not.

It is less than 1 tip because some portion of the right side of the tip is going to contact the CB.

Other informed authors will show a tip/ball diagram with the tip offset, say a diameter and a half and refer to that as 1 tip left....which is roughly correct--depending on the tip radius.

Personally, I think that tip offsets should be referred to based on the tip diameter depiction, even though it is incorrect...because it can be viewed quite precisely in the mind's eye while the actual tip contact point is more difficult to visualize...IMO.

Having said all that, because the use of excessive english is one of the most common errors in all of pool, there should be a law stating that if any player, who cannot beat the 7 Ball Ghost consistently, uses more than 1 diameter of tip offset, that person would be severely beaten...literally and figuratively!

(-:

Regards,
Jim

pooltchr
02-10-2008, 07:19 PM
When I am working with a student, I always make sure we are talking about the same thing. I find that if we use the size of the chalk mark left on the cue ball to represent 1 tip, students get an accurate picture. Also, by using the smaller "contact area", it allows for more accurate spin control. They learn to accurately apply 4 or 5 different amounts of spin in any direction, giving them more and better cue ball control.
Steve