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dr_dave
02-15-2008, 07:19 PM
FYI, Tom Ross (fellow BD instructional columnist) and I filmed a bunch of high-speed video (HSV) stuff this week. I included a mix of normal footage with the super-slow-motion footage, along with some commentary (i.e., the "production value" is much better than with past HSV postings). The topics are also very interesting (IMO). Here they are:

HSV B.1 - draw shot cue and ball reaction (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-1.htm)

HSV B.2 - Illegal "scoop" jump shots (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-2.htm)

HSV B.3 - various jump shot techniques (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-3.htm)

HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm)

HSV B.5 - jump and break shot strokes and grips (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-5.htm)

HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-6.htm)

HSV B.7 - one-pocket frozen-ball spot shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-7.htm)

HSV B.8 - jump shot off the rail (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-8.htm)

HSV B.9 - cue deflection and vibration (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-9.htm)

Since I filmed this batch with Tom (who did all of the shooting) in Fort Collins (Tom lives an hour away in Denver), maybe I should call the project "The Fort Collins Project" in the spirit of Bob's "Jacksonville Project."

I look forward to reading your comments and observations.

Enjoy,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
02-15-2008, 08:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, Tom Ross (fellow BD instructional columnist) and I filmed a bunch of high-speed video (HSV) stuff this week. I included a mix of normal footage with the super-slow-motion footage, along with some commentary (i.e., the "production value" is much better than with past HSV postings).<hr /></blockquote>

Great job. I think this will clarify a lot of shots for people. On a few of the clips -- especially those where you want to check for double hits -- it would be nice to have a higher frame-rate.

Illegal "scoop" jump shots -- I'm glad it wasn't my table. It is pretty clear that the ferrule is not involved on these shots and that you can get some spin on the cue ball. I think there are still many (nearly all?) people who do not understand how this shot differs from similar shots. Maybe this will make it clearer.

one-pocket frozen-ball spot shot -- is it possible to see how much follow was on the object ball? Did it curve? It looks like it is starting out close to the final line.

jump shot off the rail -- it looked like on one of these the ball met the tip in mid-air. I once saw that happen in a nine ball game on the break shot. The racker didn't notice that the super-long follow through had met the cue ball as it bounced up and off the rack.

Artemus
02-16-2008, 08:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, Tom Ross (fellow BD instructional columnist) and I filmed a bunch of high-speed video (HSV) stuff this week. I included a mix of normal footage with the super-slow-motion footage, along with some commentary (i.e., the "production value" is much better than with past HSV postings). The topics are also very interesting (IMO). Here they are:

HSV B.1 - draw shot cue and ball reaction (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-1.htm)

<font color="red"> 1. Doesn't the amount of CB bounce also have to do with the thickness of the slate? Won't you get varying degrees between 3/4", 1", 1 1/2" and 2" slate? What happens with different degrees of force applied or speed? In the end, what is the BOTTOM LINE to be learned? What will a player pick up from this video on it's own to make him better? </font color>

HSV B.2 - Illegal "scoop" jump shots (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-2.htm)

<font color="red"> 2. The lesson here is what, other than what not to do or to identify, which I think everybody does know. </font color>

HSV B.3 - various jump shot techniques (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-3.htm)

<font color="red"> 3. More instruction on technique and the amount of force used would have been beneficial. </font color>

HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm)

<font color="red"> 4. This one I found very interesting and additional info on where he was aiming his tip, the angle of his cue, and the amount of force would be helpful. </font color>

HSV B.5 - jump and break shot strokes and grips (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-5.htm)

<font color="red"> 5. This one was decent. </font color>

HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-6.htm)

<font color="red"> 6. I don't know how much could really be detected in normal play. Slow mo picked it up but, WOW! </font color>

HSV B.7 - one-pocket frozen-ball spot shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-7.htm)

<font color="red"> 7. More info needed again. Besides follow, how hard was he hitting the balls and where on the OB was he aiming? </font color>

HSV B.8 - jump shot off the rail (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-8.htm)

<font color="red"> 8. Good shot to know but more info needed. How much cue elevation was he using, where was he aiming on the CB, and how hard of a hit? </font color>

HSV B.9 - cue deflection and vibration (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-9.htm)

<font color="red"> 9. And the lesson here is? What is the bottom line? </font color>



Since I filmed this batch with Tom (who did all of the shooting) in Fort Collins (Tom lives an hour away in Denver), maybe I should call the project "The Fort Collins Project" in the spirit of Bob's "Jacksonville Project."

I look forward to reading your comments and observations.

Enjoy,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, Tom Ross (fellow BD instructional columnist) and I filmed a bunch of high-speed video (HSV) stuff this week. I included a mix of normal footage with the super-slow-motion footage, along with some commentary (i.e., the "production value" is much better than with past HSV postings).<hr /></blockquote>Great job.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>I think this will clarify a lot of shots for people.<hr /></blockquote>I agree. I think there are still man misconception out there on several of these topics.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>On a few of the clips -- especially those where you want to check for double hits -- it would be nice to have a higher frame-rate.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed. Send me a check for $50,000 and I would be happy to purchase a better camera that can film at higher frame rates with better resolution. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>Illegal "scoop" jump shots -- I'm glad it wasn't my table.<hr /></blockquote>Cloth damage is a small price to pay for "science." The draw shot experiments actually caused as much damage (if not more) than the illegal "scoops." Maybe draw shots (especially with miscue) should be illegal. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>It is pretty clear that the ferrule is not involved on these shots and that you can get some spin on the cue ball. I think there are still many (nearly all?) people who do not understand how this shot differs from similar shots. Maybe this will make it clearer.<hr /></blockquote>I think it can sometimes be difficult to tell if an elevated-cue jump shot is "legal" or not. Even if somebody is aiming above the "equator," they can stroke lower and/or miscue and easily "scoop" the ball, and an observer might not be able to detect this (because it happens too fast). I don't know of any reason why somebody would do this purposely, because a "legal" jump shot is so easy to execute with decent equipment and a little practice, but the possibility does make it more difficult to write accurate and clear rules and regulations.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 10:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>one-pocket frozen-ball spot shot -- is it possible to see how much follow was on the object ball?<hr /></blockquote>It looks to me enough top is transferred to help the lead ball roll immediately.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>Did it curve?<hr /></blockquote>... not noticeably. Again, it seems like the transferred top helps the ball roll immediately without any perceptible sliding.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>It looks like it is starting out close to the final line.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>jump shot off the rail -- it looked like on one of these the ball met the tip in mid-air.<hr /></blockquote>It was close, but I don't think it touched. The extra jump height was due to the cushion contact height, not a secondary hit.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>HSV B.1 - draw shot cue and ball reaction (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-1.htm)
Doesn't the amount of CB bounce also have to do with the thickness of the slate?<hr /></blockquote>Yes. I think the thickness of the cloth is also a factor.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Won't you get varying degrees between 3/4", 1", 1 1/2" and 2" slate?<hr /></blockquote>Yes.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>What happens with different degrees of force applied or speed?<hr /></blockquote>With an elevated cue, more speed will result in a higher hop.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>In the end, what is the BOTTOM LINE to be learned?<hr /></blockquote>When you elevate your cue with a draw shot, some spin is lost when the CB drives into the slate (after tip contact), and the CB will hop.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>What will a player pick up from this video on it's own to make him better?<hr /></blockquote>The main point of the video wasn't to make players better, it was to help them see and understand what is going on.

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-16-2008, 10:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>What will a player pick up from this video on it's own to make him better?<hr /></blockquote>

The main point of the video wasn't to make players better, it was to help them see and understand what is going on.
<hr /></blockquote>

It wasn't to make players better? As an educator in an institution of higher learning I would only HOPE that you're trying to make students BETTER and to help them APPLY what it is you're attempting to get them to understand and learn. What good is it otherwise?

It's like the hundreds of threads with all the complex formulas that you guys do for MENTAL MATHTURBATION among yourselves. WHAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE? The only thing that matters is what can be learned from it, WHAT can any and ALL players do to apply it, HOW do they apply it or do it, and WHAT can the expected result be?

All you have to do is take the next step forward to make it practical, usable, DOABLE and it would THEN be worth it's weight in gold.

I used to see pictures, videos, and then the Grand Canyon live and in person. Each time it was an "ooooooh, aaaaaaahhh, isn't that neat and beautiful" experience and I was awe stricken when I saw it in person. But it really didn't sink in until I actually learned from the Park Rangers and various books what all of the different layers or colorations meant in the one mile of vertical wall as far as how the canyon was formed and the different stages that Earth went through to get to that point.

I'm not "picking" on you as you or a few others may think. What I'm only pointing out is, you have some GREAT videos. Take it out another step or two and it'll go down as possibly one of the best learning tools ever put out in the pool industry instead of just an "oooooooh, aaaaaaaaahhh, isn't that nice" experience.

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>HSV B.2 - Illegal "scoop" jump shots (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-2.htm)
The lesson here is what, other than what not to do or to identify, which I think everybody does know.<hr /></blockquote>There have been many debates about this in the past and recently. It is important to understand what happens with different types of shots so rules can be written and interpreted accurately and fairly. Some people think the "scoop" is caused by a miscue and/or ferrule/shaft contact. The video clearly show this is not the case.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-6.htm)
I don't know how much could really be detected in normal play. Slow mo picked it up but, WOW!<hr /></blockquote>One purpose of this video is to help people visualize and understand what happens to the CB with double-hit fouls. Another purpose is to help people see what happens to the CB with both legal and illegal hits at close range. For example, some people say: "When the CB is within a chalk's distance away, and the CB goes forward of the OB ball's position during the shot, it is a foul." Obviously, this isn't always true. The video also shows that it is really difficult to to tell whether or not a shot is strictly a foul or not (even with high-speed video). Hopefully, this sort of video can help the rules writers and referees come up with accurate and easy-to-apply rules that cause less arguments. Good luck to them on this one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>HSV B.7 - one-pocket frozen-ball spot shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-7.htm)
More info needed again. Besides follow, how hard was he hitting the balls and where on the OB was he aiming?<hr /></blockquote>On this and other shots, I included the regular footage along with the super-slow-motion footage so people could see and hear the force of the shot. I think the different views show fairly clearly where the OB is being hit.

I'm sorry the videos don't meet your rigorous standards. I do the best I can with the limited amount of time I have.

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-16-2008, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>HSV B.7 - one-pocket frozen-ball spot shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-7.htm)
More info needed again. Besides follow, how hard was he hitting the balls and where on the OB was he aiming?<hr /></blockquote>On this and other shots, I included the regular footage along with the super-slow-motion footage so people could see and hear the force of the shot. I think the different views show fairly clearly where the OB is being hit.

<font color="red"> Oh really?? I dragged it back and forth and played it numerous times and still have a difficult time picking it up. I must be the only one in the entire Universe that can't see it. (not that I didn't know the shot beforehand, which I do) Doesn't the volume level on your computer have anything to do with interpretation? Wouldn't it just have been easier for YOU to explain it and say where and how hard he hit it? </font color>

I'm sorry the videos don't meet your rigorous standards. I do the best I can with the limited amount of time I have.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> It was a suggestion to help players get better, not my rigorous standards. You STILL ain't gettin' it and NEVER will. </font color>

wolfdancer
02-16-2008, 12:00 PM
You'll have to wait 'till I hit the lotto for my $50k donation to science. Haven't watched the videos yet, but look forward to them, esp. after Bob's comments re them.
Seems like you picked a pretty good player/instructor to demo the shots, in Tom Ross...I've enjoyed reading his articles.
I also think you will eventually get "it", but not sure what "it" is.....the unified theory of pool???
Here's a tip to help...Thomas Edison would consider all aspects of the problem, then go take a nap...and wake up with the solution.
Thanks for the research and the links...have a good weekend

Artemus
02-16-2008, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Haven't watched the videos yet, but look forward to them, esp. after Bob's comments re them.
Thanks for the research and the links <hr /></blockquote>

The assistant professor has just made a guest appearance with some GLOWING words and accolades for the erudite Dave of Colorado even though he has yet to watch anything. Why am I not surprised??

Hey, Asst.Prof - watch ALL of them from 1 through 9 and give YOUR DETAILED explanation on EACH video and explain what a reader can learn to become a BETTER player. Don't hold back on the thoroughness of your explanations for each one either. The forum is counting on YOU!

We'll see if you have "it" or not.

wolfdancer
02-16-2008, 12:39 PM
Post deleted by wolfdancer

Artemus
02-16-2008, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Mr Pool big shot.....I'm just an amateur player that both enjoys the game for the competition, and the social aspects of it. Pool isn't my "life" just my recreation. I know I'll enjoy the videos, because I'll get "something" out of them, maybe just one "tip". I know this because I already have a Dr. Dave video. The last thing I'd be doing though is to try to justify my views and opinions to you.... THE pool policeman on the CCB.....besides I have an important HOA meeting coming up.....
I don't hope to understand or play the game as well as you must, considering the critical tone of your posts....but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game and try to improve.
Just because something written or filmed about pool, doesn't match your stringent criteria.....I think myself and others would find them interesting.
Impress others will you, with your expertise, and don't waste your time telling me what do do....I count pro players amongst my friends...and I'm not the least interested in your teachings
<hr /></blockquote>

Let me say it ONE MORE TIME old man. The assistant professor has just made a guest appearance with some GLOWING words and accolades for the erudite Dave of Colorado even though he has yet to watch anything. Why am I not surprised??

Hey, Asst.Prof - watch ALL of them from 1 through 9 and give YOUR DETAILED explanation on EACH video and explain what a reader can learn to become a BETTER player. Don't hold back on the thoroughness of your explanations for each one either. The forum is counting on YOU!

We'll see if you have "it" or not.

Just so you know, I wouldn't want to teach YOU anything if you were the last person left on Earth along with myself. I'd rather talk to a tree. (and get more interesting comments back).

Tell us "what you got out of them and what you learned". It'll be interesting to see how a banger hack amateur social player puts it into words, even if it is YOU. LMAO

JoeW
02-16-2008, 01:23 PM
Thanks Dave:
I watched and very much enjoyed your videos. They were very educational.

Prof. Joe Waldron, Ph.D., psychologist (retired) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
02-16-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm just an amateur player that both enjoys the game for the competition, and the social aspects of it. Pool isn't my "life", just my recreation. I know I'll enjoy the videos, because I'll get "something" out of them, maybe just one "tip". I know this because I already have a Dr. Dave video. The last thing I'd be doing though is to try to justify my views and opinions to you.....besides I have an important HOA meeting coming up.....
I don't hope to understand or play the game as well as you must, considering the critical tone of your posts....but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game and try to improve.
Just because something written or filmed about pool, doesn't meet up with your stringent criteria.....I still think myself and others would find them interesting. ( we haven't attained Satori, in pool, as you may have)
You have "arrived" but others like myself, are still on the journey.
I've also worked in and managed pool rooms, ran tournaments for a few years, attended pro tournaments for several more, and count a few pros amongst my friends....There's not much I haven't seen or read about...
I think you can share your points about pool.....without trying to make others look bad...have a good weekend...
(and please don't try to prolong this "discussion"...I've said my piece, thanks)

wolfdancer
02-16-2008, 01:30 PM
you come off like a total a** in your posts...
like Jude wrote....a "C" player that thinks he knows it all
But here's an idea to end all the controversy that you originate...anybody posting anything about pool...should submit it to you first, for your review and expert commentary

SKennedy
02-16-2008, 01:54 PM
No doubt I am the least skillful poolplayer posting on this thread. Having made that statement and clarifying my ability or lack thereof......
I watched the videos and I did find them useful and somewhat helpful. However, I think an even less skilled player would not find them as useful and I think very skilled players would find them interesting and perhaps educational, but not so much useful. The videos help visually conceptualize the shots and what happens that our normal eyes can't see.
I think I understand what Artemus is trying to say in that Dr. Dave does not go far enough. And I agree that had Dr. Dave gone into more details/explanations/implications/instructions, etc., that more could be achieved. But, I don't think that was Dave's intent. He was likely just showing slo-mo shots that were taken to satisfy his and our curiousities. It is not a failure on Dave's part that this project was not carried further and to any signficant level as an actual training tool. And these video clips, along with additional information that Dave and others have accumulated, could be packaged into a great training and educational program for players. Right now, he has video snippets.

I have performed bioremediation projects utilizing bacteria to treat and remediate soils contaminated with petroleum hydrocarbons. A professor (biochemist/micrpbiologist) at University of Texas worked with us (my company) to perform research before we put it into practice. Without the research, we could have never done what we did. But without us, his work would have had no application.....Another friend of mine, who happens to be another professor at UT and in the same department commented to me..."Yes, we come up with these new ideas, research them, and then guys like you find a use for them." In this case he was wrong....we came up with the need and the actual idea, they (university) did the research with our grant money, etc., and we marketed the projects and performed them while paying the university for their portion. The market was the driving and most influencial force.....so what does this have to do with the subject at hand....same thing....Dave is doing research and maybe it's up to others, or a team, to develop this further. I think Artemus is indicating that cerebral exercises are great, especially for those interested in such things, but for the general pool player out there, they may not be so much help. I don't think Dave has misrepresented his videos and has only offered them to us to use and review as we see fit. But, I think much more could be done with them.
And while I stated that I felt my company and the market were the primary forces behind the bioremediation research conducted, let me add that the professor doing the work retired, the one who took his place was not interested, and we have performed no similar projects employing these techniques since. It is, or was, a symbiotic relationship!

wolfdancer
02-16-2008, 02:46 PM
I've bought many an instructional video or book,on both pool and golf, in the past. Sometimes there's only one, or two "gems" in there....but if you are interested in the sport, it's still good reading or viewing.
Only book I know of that tried to explain it all..was Jim Fixx's "The Complete Book of Running"...later one though, he wrote a companion book to the "Complete...."
(Jim suffered a heart attack while running, and died at age 53)
Seems like both Dr. Dave and Mike Page have come under Art's microscope, for criticism...while the rest of us recreational players appreciate their contributions....
But then...I didn't spend 6 months researching the light bulb aiming system..I gave up on it in 15 minutes...and since I'm just trying to simplify my mechanics...ain't gonna add "tuck and roll" to my stroke..
Still think they should add an "expert's" pool section to the site....
Would bioremediation help my game???

mikepage
02-16-2008, 02:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> you come off like a total[...]
<hr /></blockquote>

Ain't worth it, Wolf.

like wrestling with a pig...
You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

SKennedy
02-16-2008, 03:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I've bought many an instructional video or book,on both pool and golf, in the past. Sometimes there's only one, or two "gems" in there....but if you are interested in the sport, it's still good reading or viewing.
Only book I know of that tried to explain it all..was Jim Fixx's "The Complete Book of Running"...later one though, he wrote a companion book to the "Complete...."
(Jim suffered a heart attack while running, and died at age 53)
Seems like both Dr. Dave and Mike Page have come under Art's microscope, for criticism...while the rest of us recreational players appreciate their contributions....
But then...I didn't spend 6 months researching the light bulb aiming system..I gave up on it in 15 minutes...and since I'm just trying to simplify my mechanics...ain't gonna add "tuck and roll" to my stroke..
Still think they should add an "expert's" pool section to the site....
Would bioremediation help my game??? <hr /></blockquote>

I wasn't, of course, talking about anything complete and conpehensive.
As for bioremediation....if you're buried in the ground all natural and such, it will take it's course, but don't think it will do much for your game...sorry! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for the light bulb aiming system....I only gave it 15 seconds.

Jal
02-16-2008, 04:01 PM
Thanks again for the videos Dr. Dave, particularly the first one...it will take a while to digest. Your efforts are appreciated very much.

Jim

Artemus
02-16-2008, 04:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> you come off like a total a** in your posts...
like Jude wrote....a "C" player that thinks he knows it all
But here's an idea to end all the controversy that you originate...anybody posting anything about pool...should submit it to you first, for your review and expert commentary <hr /></blockquote>

Wrong codger. Whatever I post needs to be submitted to YOU first for YOUR review since YOU'RE the "Condo Commando" and "Homeowner's Association Watchdog" that likes riding herd over me and others that don't meet YOUR RULES. Once again, KMA.

Artemus
02-16-2008, 04:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> you come off like a total[...]
<hr /></blockquote>

Ain't worth it, Wolf.

like wrestling with a pig...
You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.
<hr /></blockquote>

The mere fact that you came in taking your pot shot shows that YOU have some swine in you yourself! Besides, I've seen MANY threads that you've participated in over the years where you got so muddy and stinky that even a pig would have turned and run in the opposite direction.

Artemus
02-16-2008, 04:40 PM
You got IT! You really did get IT!! That's it in a nutshell. Not only did you do a FANTASTIC and superior job of expressing your own thoughts, but you also nailed what I was trying to get across.

wolfdancer
02-16-2008, 06:01 PM
Just watched them all...
On the one pocket shot...banking the ball into the pocket is fairly simple and I have seen both made...

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 06:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Just watched them all...
On the one pocket shot...banking the ball into the pocket is fairly simple and I have seen both made... <hr /></blockquote>I have also seen both made, and have come close myself, but after filming for 6 hours or so, it is difficult to keep the motivation. We only did the one-pocket shot about 5 times.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 06:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Thanks Dave:
I watched and very much enjoyed your videos. They were very educational.

Prof. Joe Waldron, Ph.D., psychologist (retired) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>Thank you Dr. Joe. You're a true gentleman. I'm glad you've joined our forum. There are only 1 or 2 people for which I can't say the same.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 06:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> Thanks again for the videos Dr. Dave, particularly the first one...it will take a while to digest. Your efforts are appreciated very much.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you Jim. I still plan to get around to filming some of the ideas you suggested, but the posted clips took longer to film than I thought they would.

I look forward to hearing what you think requires digestion in:
HSV B.1 - draw shot cue and ball reaction (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-1.htm).

Did you see something you didn't expect to see?

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-16-2008, 06:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Just watched them all...
On the one pocket shot...banking the ball into the pocket is fairly simple and I have seen both made... <hr /></blockquote>

ROTFLMFAO! This post is too much and I'm about ready to Pi$$ my pants from this convulated moronic post by the Homeowner's Association Watchdog! I'm gonna DIE from laughing so hard.

The One Pocket Shot WAS NOT about banking the ball. It was about making the FRONT BALL ON THE SPOT in the corner pocket!

WTF is this guy even doing on here, especially when it comes to giving advice or critiquing me or a post??!

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHa!! I'm doubling over now!!
LMFAO!

GOOD JOB, DAVE! Try presenting it next time with a "Dick and Jane Story! LOL

I also notice that all of the praise from posters and your "thank you's" back have ALL been to the GOOGAN biker bar members chiming in.

As I stated earlier, YOU DID SOME GREAT WORK ON THE VIDEOS AND I'M SURE YOU AND TOM HAD A BLAST DOING THEM. YOU JUST LEFT IT HANGING IN THE AIR AND DIDN'T FOLLOW UP ON IT ENOUGH.
When you do it, along with the math formulas, then you'll have something OUTSTANDING. WAKE UP!

Let me say it ONE MORE TIME. YOU DID A GREAT JOB ON THE VIDEOS! TAKE THE NEXT STEP!

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 06:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> you come off like a total[...]<hr /></blockquote>Ain't worth it, Wolf.

like wrestling with a pig...
You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.<hr /></blockquote>Mike,

Thank you for deflecting some of the negativity. I'm glad it's not just me who is graced by the insults of a certain poster. Hopefully, one of these days, the poster will realize that extreme negativity and constant insults won't get him much respect around here. Although, I won't hold my breath. Some people are just unpleasant by nature. I know I'm stooping lower than I normally would with this post, but think it is well deserved.

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
02-16-2008, 06:47 PM
WAKE UP DAVIE BOY! WAKE UP! FORGET ABOUT YOUR GOOGAN BIKER BUDDIES STICKING UP FOR YOU. YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE RECOGNIZED FOR DOING SOMETHING QUITE GOOD, BUT YOU FIZZLED IN THE END. TAKE IT TO THE NEXT STEP!

dr_dave
02-16-2008, 07:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE RECOGNIZED FOR DOING SOMETHING QUITE GOOD, BUT YOU FIZZLED IN THE END. TAKE IT TO THE NEXT STEP!<hr /></blockquote>I'll take that as a compliment and as encouragement. Thank you.

I agree the videos aren't all they can be, but I made them publicly available after putting much work into them, so the negativity and insults are not very well received. I am happy to discuss and debate what is there, but I don't appreciate the negativity.

I try to do more in my articles (which reference the videos), but I know the articles don't appeal to everybody.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Thank you for showing the maturity to not continue the attack after I insulted you. I respect that.

SKennedy
02-16-2008, 08:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> WAKE UP DAVIE BOY! WAKE UP! FORGET ABOUT YOUR GOOGAN BIKER BUDDIES STICKING UP FOR YOU. YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE RECOGNIZED FOR DOING SOMETHING QUITE GOOD, BUT YOU FIZZLED IN THE END. TAKE IT TO THE NEXT STEP! <hr /></blockquote>

Just as Tom helped Dr. Dave on this video, you, as well as some other skilled players could help him develop a really good training video. You (collective group) could do some of these and other shots Dave has recorded and provide narrative before, during, and after the shots to describe when, how, where, etc...and make it entertaining too! How many good pool training videos are really out there? I suspect there are some, but surely the demand is there for a really good one that includes more technical footage, etc.
It's easier to sit back and criticize than it is to get involved and help out. And while I understand your criticism of Dr. Dave, I for one am certainly glad he is here with us and helping us. People don't take criticism very well, especially when the one criticizing doesn't have a lot of diplomatic skills. I'm sure you would admit that is not one of your strong points and I'm willing to bet you really don't care...hence the reason it's not!
I don't know if I'm really trying so much to play peacemaker here, as it is that I understand both sides of the issue and don't want either side to get lost in the negative aspects, which is all that people will remember. Of course, I'm sure that I have managed to piss off both parties now......but I'll still sleep well tonight!

wolfdancer
02-16-2008, 08:34 PM
my comment was that I have seen the shot before..many times..just that, nothing more.
Glad that you found that so hilarious...as we all could do with a little humor....esp now that everyone that posts about pool is under attack by you.
I found your "Davey boy" comment to be disrespectful....I wouldn't dream of calling anyone that has earned a doctorate in his chosen field, Davey boy.

That post though, along with some of your others tells me that you aren't here to discuss pool, just to be a smart a**, and insult others. I think we can do without your negativity....and wonder if the admin will take notice? you couldn't post like that on AZB

wolfdancer
02-16-2008, 08:56 PM
"And while I understand your criticism of Dr. Dave"
Steve, that wasn't criticism, just plain taunting insults, and there was no call for that.
If he didn't like what was posted, that could have been said in a polite manner....

Artemus
02-17-2008, 06:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> my comment was that I have seen the shot before..many times..just that, nothing more.
Glad that you found that so hilarious...as we all could do with a little humor....esp now that everyone that posts about pool is under attack by you.
I found your "Davey boy" comment to be disrespectful....I wouldn't dream of calling anyone that has earned a doctorate in his chosen field, Davey boy.

<font color="red"> I could care less what you think. Your posts and dictates are irrelevant. All I see is YOU playing Homeowner's Association Watchdog and trying to set your own rules to play by. KMA! </font color>

That post though, along with some of your others tells me that you aren't here to discuss pool, just to be a smart a**, and insult others. I think we can do without your negativity....and wonder if the admin will take notice? you couldn't post like that on AZB

<font color="red"> Since I've been on here, I've talked MORE about pool than you have in the last 5 years. Your posts are about NOTHING because you really know NOTHING. My first post in this thread was about POOL and how I viewed each video. Your post looked like something from the court jester. I'm sure Admin. IS taking a close look at my posts, because a whining crybaby like YOU is constantly sending PM's just like you do with calls to your Homeowners Association when you cry about some neighborhood scofflaw that's breaking one of the rules. It might even be one of YOUR rules that isn't even on the books. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> You should be thanking me for even taking the time to acknowledge your existence and posting. Instead of getting out of bed in the morning and running as hard as you can face and chest first into the wall to jump start your heart for the day, now you can get an adrenaline rush just wondering what I may have posted and leap out like a 20 year old. LMAO Here's how it COULD work you old curmudgeon, you COULD just ignore my posts and say NOTHING, but you don't. WHY?? Because THIS gives you your only reason for living. Keep responding and keep proving me right. LMAO </font color>

Artemus
02-17-2008, 06:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE RECOGNIZED FOR DOING SOMETHING QUITE GOOD, BUT YOU FIZZLED IN THE END. TAKE IT TO THE NEXT STEP!<hr /></blockquote>I'll take that as a compliment and as encouragement. Thank you.

<font color="red"> Then you've finally taken something correctly. Now go back to my FIRST POST on the thread where I commented about each individual video. This time quit injecting what YOU deem to be hatred, criticism, or perceived inflections and just read it without any kind of passion or feeling. Take it objectively. </font color>

I agree the videos aren't all they can be, but I made them publicly available after putting much work into them, so the negativity and insults are not very well received. I am happy to discuss and debate what is there, but I don't appreciate the negativity.

<font color="red"> Where is the negativity?? You ASKED for comments about the videos in your original post. I GAVE my comments. I didn't blast the videos. They are what they are. I also stated that I wasn't "picking" on YOU. The videos are fine. However, to see balls jumping, spinning, or bouncing have little value when standing alone without some sort of commentary, explanations, and usages. I cannot and will not affix a gold star to your forehead for a project that's INCOMPLETE, just like you'd do to a student that turned in an incomplete paper.</font color>

I try to do more in my articles (which reference the videos), but I know the articles don't appeal to everybody.

<font color="red"> They might and probably would be if you considered breaking it down further into more simplistic terms that were immediately usable to the reader. (I guess EVERYTHING I say can be considered "negative", right?) </font color>

Regards,
Dave

PS: Thank you for showing the maturity to not continue the attack after I insulted you. I respect that. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> It was never my intent to attack YOU. You seem to be an extremely sensitive guy, sometimes that's good in your responses back to others, including me, and at other times it produces a defensive hair trigger response. Btw, it was one of YOUR Googan biker members that referenced ME as a PIG. Which I find kinda hilarious and ironic since he's wallowed in some pig sties himself over the years and it would be quite easy to pull up those archived mud wrestling matches to show a swine in action. </font color>

mikepage
02-17-2008, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> [...] Btw, it was one of YOUR Googan biker members that referenced ME as a PIG. <hr /></blockquote>

For the record, I didn't call you a pig, I likened arguing with you to wrestling with a pig. It was an analogy.

[ QUOTE ]
Which I find kinda hilarious and ironic since he's wallowed in some pig sties himself over the years and it would be quite easy to pull up those archived mud wrestling matches to show a swine in action. <hr /></blockquote>

This is the second time you said this. Rather than wait for the third time, I'd like to invite you to make good on your claim.

I have about 1200 searchable posts on AZBilliards and many more, also searchable, on rec.sport.billiard. These span more than a decade. Give it your best shot.

Bring us the "worst of Mike Page," the top ten most low-life mudslinging vile posts of Mike Page.

It should not only be easy but be "quite easy" as you say.

I suspect you won't do it and will instead have one of your characteristic responses. But the people reading this will know exactly WHY you're not supporting your claim.

Artemus
02-17-2008, 08:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> [...] Btw, it was one of YOUR Googan biker members that referenced ME as a PIG. <hr /></blockquote>

For the record, I didn't call you a pig, I likened arguing with you to wrestling with a pig. It was an analogy.

<font color="red"> LMAO, right! That makes ALL the difference in the world and cleans it up to where YOU'RE an ALTAR BOY once again. Page, you're nothing but a lying hypocrite. (THAT is not an analogy) </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Which I find kinda hilarious and ironic since he's wallowed in some pig sties himself over the years and it would be quite easy to pull up those archived mud wrestling matches to show a swine in action. <hr /></blockquote>

This is the second time you said this. Rather than wait for the third time, I'd like to invite you to make good on your claim.

I have about 1200 searchable posts on AZBilliards and many more, also searchable, on rec.sport.billiard. These span more than a decade. Give it your best shot.

Bring us the "worst of Mike Page," the top ten most low-life mudslinging vile posts of Mike Page.

It should not only be easy but be "quite easy" as you say.

I suspect you won't do it and will instead have one of your characteristic responses. But the people reading this will know exactly WHY you're not supporting your claim.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> You don't think I'll do it? Why, it would be my absolute pleasure to do it and oblige your request. They can then judge for themselves what a "HOLIER THAN THOU SWINE" looks like in action as he hypocritically and categorically denies any involvement in negativity and criticism. LMAO! You're really a piece of work!

First of all I WAS NOT VILE to Dave in this thread when I responded to him about the videos and NEVER was. However, I have one of YOU and our own SCOTT LEE where YOU CRITICIZE AND DEMEAN his verbage when explaining certain concepts as he's giving a lesson. It isn't very difficult for a reader to see that SCOTT IS NOT too pleased with your constant harangue regarding shot angles or aim angles.
It's also quite easy to see why SCOTT said what he did in a post here recently about 'NOT being put in THEIR camp'.</font color>

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepage (this is Mike Page)
We're not talking about some esoteric technical definition as you seem to suggest.

(Scott LEE)
IMO, you are...

(MIKE PAGE)
I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience and your commitment to billiard instruction. That's not at issue here.

But your nonstandard use of the word pause is actually the third billiard word or phrase in the last month that I've noticed you use differently from the mainstream. Of course you can always fall back on the claim that everybody can choose to use a word any way he wants. And that's true. You can choose to call a "stop shot" a shot for which the cueball rolls forward six inches. Nobody can stop you. But what we can do is appeal to that commitment to billiard instruction that I referred to above. When we communicate poorly or in a way that doesn't match with the generally accepted standard, billiard instruction suffers. This is because students get and compare information from many different sources.

(SCOTT LEE)
Whether you consider my application of using the word "pause" nonstandard or not doesn't matter to me. My students understand exactly what I mean and how I am using the terminology.

(MIKE PAGE)
For examples,

On 9-23-07, you wrote,


I pointed out that if you type "half ball hit" into google, You will get over 1000 hits,
from Byrne
Tom Simpson
wikipedia
Bob Jewett
Capelle
Koeller
Ron Shepard
Dr. Dave
inside pool mag
billiards digest

and the list goes on

Every single one of these sources uses "half ball hit" to mean a cut angle of 30 degrees, not 45 degrees. And I speculated the phrase had its meaning before any of these people were born.

You show no sign of understanding it is a problem if you use the same phrase differently from other people. There is no indication you have any plans to change.

(SCOTT LEE, now getting quite irritated and pi$$ed)
You're damn right, and I will not change it either. If you place the CB and OB on both the footspot and headspot...roll the CB into the OB, to pocket both balls (which means the CB will scratch...unless it is hit at slow speed with lots of topspin), it IS a 45 degree cut angle, and a half-ball hit, but NOT a half-ball aim. It is a 1/4 ball aim. Set the same shot up as a spot shot with the CB over by the rail, on the headstring, and it becomes a 30 degree cut, which is a half-ball AIM, NOT a half-ball hit. This shot is a 3/4 ball hit. A half-ball aim and a half-ball hit are NOT the same at all!

(MIKE PAGE)
On October 18 2007, you wrote,
You say this despite the fact this is exactly what nearly every pool player and instructor on the planet means by a long followthrough.

I'm amazed that you apparently refuse to believe that deliberately causing the cuestick to move farther through the CB than is necessary (outside of a natural pendulum swing) does anything to create additional response from the CB. The contact time is appx. 1/1000th of second...followthrough distance doesn't change the fact that the CB is gone off the tip in somewhere near 1/16-1/8 of an inch after coming into contact with the tip of the cue. You can't physically do anything to change that. Once the CB is gone, it's GONE. The issue of elbow drop has been debated to death, and it doesn't need any more.

I'm not talking about what you understand or don't understand, or what you recommend or don't recommend. I know you understand the stuff, and I know you have a lot of sound and helpful recommendations.

(SCOTT LEE, NOW USING EXCLAMATION MARKS READILY TO MAKE A POINT BECAUSE THE BLOOD IS BOILING)
Then let it be...you do it your way, and we'll do it ours. Let the student decide for themselves what they like, don't like...and what works or doesn't work!

(MIKE PAGE)
But you're not doing this in a vacuum. It's not just you and a few SPF instructors or whatever and a bunch of students.

(SCOTT LEE)
I guess you call 200+ SPF instructors and several thousand students "a few"?

(MIKE PAGE)
The billiards community is big, and if we're really going to promote better play, better understanding, and a better appreciation of the game as broadly as I think we'd all like, I think we should all show some reverence to the idea of adopting and promoting clear, accurate, common language.

(SCOTT LEE, NOW AT HIS WITS END AND THOROUGHLY INFURIATED)
We DO use clear, accurate, common language...language that is clearly understood and applied by our students. If you don't like it and don't want to use it...please DON'T! If you want us to 'show reverance' for something we perhaps don't happen to agree with (old school ideas)...sorry, but that's not likely to happen!

I'm done here Mike...I won't argue this with you or anybody else anymore...period. As for my use of some terminology...you have not taken a lesson from me, so you haven't the slightest idea what I say, or how it is implied for the student to use (or not use). When you have, perhaps you'll have a better understanding of what I'm doing and saying...and why I choose to do it that way (successfully).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com (http://www.poolknowledge.com)</font color>

<font color="blue"> How's that for openers, PAGE?? Was it vile?? NO! Was I vile?? NO! But it does show that you love wrestling in the mud yourself, little piggie. OINK-OINK! Wanna call my bluff again? </font color>

mikepage
02-17-2008, 11:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> [...]
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mike page:</font><hr>
The billiards community is big, and if we're really going to promote better play, better understanding, and a better appreciation of the game as broadly as I think we'd all like, I think we should all show some reverence to the idea of adopting and promoting clear, accurate, common language.
<hr /></blockquote>

[...]
<font color="blue"> [...] you love wrestling in the mud yourself, little piggie. OINK-OINK! Wanna call my bluff again? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I'll never make that mistake again. Next time you might expose me as calling for world peace.

lol

Jal
02-17-2008, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> Thanks again for the videos Dr. Dave, particularly the first one...it will take a while to digest. Your efforts are appreciated very much.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you Jim. I still plan to get around to filming some of the ideas you suggested, but the posted clips took longer to film than I thought they would.

I look forward to hearing what you think requires digestion in:
HSV B.1 - draw shot cue and ball reaction (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-1.htm).

Did you see something you didn't expect to see?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave,

By "digesting" it, I meant an analysis which more or less demonstrates that with some cue elevation (perhaps zero), and a certain distance between the balls, the cueball will retain the most backspin as it reaches the object ball. Some pros do say that elevating beyond normal does get you more draw when there is a lot of distance between them.

I've done the math for a bouncing ball, but it still needs more work as it doesn't include the time the ball is in contact with the cloth during each bounce. The main problem though is in knowing the initial state of the ball as it leaves the tip and cloth. This, along with bed contact time, requires some measurements. Obviously, these will vary a bit from table to table and cloth to cloth, but one good example should tell us something.

Perhaps you or others have already done the analysis/experimentation and come to some definite conclusions?

In looking at the video again, it doesn't appear as if the shots are being done on a normal table surface. Can you tell us more about this? Thanks.

Jim

av84fun
02-17-2008, 01:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> [...]
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mike page:</font><hr>
The billiards community is big, and if we're really going to promote better play, better understanding, and a better appreciation of the game as broadly as I think we'd all like, I think we should all show some reverence to the idea of adopting and promoting clear, accurate, common language.
<hr /></blockquote>

[...]
<font color="blue"> [...] you love wrestling in the mud yourself, little piggie. OINK-OINK! Wanna call my bluff again? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I'll never make that mistake again. Next time you might expose me as calling for world peace.

lol <hr /></blockquote>

I'm going to enter the fray here only because I am one of Scott Lee's HUGELY satisfied students who as seen significant actual improvement in his game.

1. I have a far above average understanding of the technical aspects of the game and Scott consistently presents his ideas clearly and not at odds with the fundamentals of the game as I know them to be.

2. While I respect ALL of the "scientific" studies relating to the game and personally find all such studies interesting, I also feel that we can suffer from "paralysis by analysis" and that our time would be often better spent developing a repeating stroke than studying why it is the the CB continues forward a little bit after OB contact with a draw stroke.

It's cool to see the slo mo video of that happening but knowing that it does, will not help me beat my opponent.

Bottom line, a debate was dredged up that Scott found frustrating and in that context, I have WAY, WAY enough knowledge and experience to know when an instructor is providing useful guidance, and when not.

In well more than an 8 hour session, I can testify that Scott knows what he is talking about and communicates his ideas very effectively.

Regards,
Jim

wolfdancer
02-17-2008, 01:22 PM
you aren't talking about pool...you're bragging about yourself, while trying to put down all the useful contributers here.
REAL players don't have to promote themselves...their game does the talking for them
Add in the fact that you have to add some smart a** comments to anybody posting about pool...

You might have peaked too soon, been the best player in the Cub Scouts, or some church league...and now think you know it all. They used to have a saying about people like you..."if he plays for money, I'll send a cab over to pick him up"
While I don't mind trading insults with you...that isn't what this side of the forum is about. What I do object to and post about, is your dumb a** interjecting your idiocy, into a useful discussion on pool....one where folks are trying to share info.....
AND while you'll probably never earn any respect yourself, your lack of respect for people that have earned it, bothers me enough to respond to your "Arty explains pool" posts.
I think we have both made a mistake here, and gotten off the right track.
You think you are posting in the teen section of myspace, and I mistakenly thought you was all growed up.

wolfdancer
02-17-2008, 02:19 PM
Jim, I think the differences between Mike's and Scott's approach are minute...it's just a matter of terminology.
It's good to have a healthy adult debate sometimes...as opposed to the immature personal attack style of....
I've taken a lesson from Scott, and watched Scott giving introductory lessons for several days in LV, along with other staff members from Cue-Tech. I thought enough of Mike's videos to dl them to share with friends.
They are both excellent instructors....
Maybe we need the "Peter Principle" here...
Peter van Aartrijk is CEO and founder of a 14 person marketing and advertising agency, bearing his name. He uses the simple NAP rule...similar to the one in Robert Sutton's book, available at Amazon.

web page (http://www.amazon.com/[censored]-Rule-Civilized-Workplace-Surviving/dp/0446526568)

A law firm has a more moderate title on the topic...."dealing with donut holes"

mikepage
02-17-2008, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Jim, I think the differences between Mike's and Scott's approach are minute...it's just a matter of terminology.
It's good to have a healthy adult debate sometimes...as opposed to the immature personal attack style of....
I've taken a lesson from Scott, and watched Scott giving introductory lessons for several days in LV, along with other staff members from Cue-Tech. I thought enough of Mike's videos to dl them to share with friends.[...] <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you.

And just so we don't get off track here, I'd take a lesson from Scott in a minute. In fact, I emailed him and asked him to let me know when he'd be by my direction.

Artemus
02-17-2008, 04:03 PM
STFU already old man. Your idiocy can only stretch so far and it's boring because you have nothing better to do with your life than be a self-appointed forum police.
Your adrenaline rush that I keep giving you is over. I don't want to continue contributing to your existence. Just live your own miserable whining, cry baby life where you do in the NW and make the rest of the residents in your subdivision that you ride herd over miserable. Don't forget to talk some pool on here occasionally so I can get a good hearty belly laugh!

wolfdancer
02-17-2008, 05:00 PM
Good idea about ending this dialog...I feel like I'm arguing with a 14 yr old.
Say, maybe you can back up all this bragging about how great a pool player you are...with some bona fides?
Seems like when I check tournament results....ain't nobody heer'd a you. Maybe you is playing under an assumed name like Caeser morales?

If you take your act down to the pool room, the big boys might steal your lunch money, then show you the door when you began whining......
Try selling someone else your pool bs though...I can spot a phony a mile away.

Artemus
02-17-2008, 06:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Good idea about ending this dialog...I feel like I'm arguing with a 14 yr old.
<hr /></blockquote>

Based on YOUR age, everybody is 14 yr. old. I feel like I'm arguing with a 125 year old with dimentia and Alzheimers and I'm pretty close to being RIGHT! LMAO

How about I PLAY YOU, big mouth?? You're a wealthy man in retirement with nothing else to do but play pool. Why don't YOU and I meet somewhere in the middle of the country and play for about 20 or 30 grand? Lets see what YOU'RE made of and how good you can play. I'm DEAD SERIOUS Wolfjerkoff! PM me and we'll get it started! If you're just a load of crap (which I KNOW you are) you'll go into hiding and NEVER PM. You'll continue to shoot your big fat mouth off here. C'mon Wolfjerkoff, PM!

Bambu
02-17-2008, 07:38 PM
Great stuff, Dave. Sorry your post was half-butchered, rather unfortunate.
A couple of questions that come to mind:
On the power draw, would you say that a slight amount of elevation is good(on account of the cueball being airborn)? I seem to need to do that a bit, when more than 5 or 6 feet of distance comes into play.
Next, on the jump shots and the slate....what would be the rule of thumb, for the thickness? Assuming bar tables have thinner slate, what would be the adjustment needed for jumping? I always thought it was the crappy cloth that made it a bit easier to jump on a bar table, but was never really sure what did it.
As I mentioned in a different thread, I am new to jumping with a jump cue. So, I was impressed by the last jump, in HSV B.3 - various jump shot techniques. Free-handed, and sooo close to the blocking ball, very nifty. Nice to see that when even closer than a half a ball, full ball jumps are still possible. Until then, I had only seen shafts jump that close. Something for me to work on, thanks Dave!

Fenwick
02-17-2008, 07:44 PM
Am I the only one who does not understand how who is the better pool player makes one the better man or how it makes one person more righteous then the other? Can we not agree to disagree and move on from here. I'll go soak in a salt, sand and rock bath to toughen my skin for the reply coming my way! Is this Billiards Digest.com or Fight Quest? And I promised myself not to post and get body slammed here ever again. Shame on me.
I'm on my side of this debate.

wolfdancer
02-17-2008, 08:00 PM
It kind of got out of hand, and I've already apologized to Dr. Dave for my part in that.
Pool doesn't define my life....but Golf, now that's a different story.....
You shouldn't get any negative comments, since your post is right on the money.

SKennedy
02-17-2008, 09:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fenwick:</font><hr> And I promised myself not to post and get body slammed here ever again. Shame on me.
I'm on my side of this debate.
<hr /></blockquote>

That's the chance we all take by particpating on here! And I say it's worth it in the end. I note that I've been reading and posting on here since August, but it only seems like about 2 months. This forum serves as another source for learning about pool and as one can see, we have some real personalities that play this game....but what would one expect? No different that going to some pool hall......
All that matters in the end is that folks like Dr. Dave, Scott Lee, and many others, as well as those with opposing viewpoints continue to post about pool....but I do agree that name-calling, etc. does detract.
I bought 2 new books on billiards yesterday and some of the authors names I actually recognized from this forum. I have only perused them so far and found them useful and no doubt more so as I practice some of the pounts and shots. However, they are a little boring compared to this site. Some of the components I find in the books are issues that have been discussed and argued (with name calling) at depth on this site. Remember, just don't throw out the baby with the bath-water...in this case the baby is Dr. Dave's videos.

wolfdancer
02-18-2008, 01:11 AM
I'm not the one bragging about my pool game here...that's you Arty boy, ever since you arrived here...... Sorry, but I don't play pool for money, it's my recreation, seems like it must give you an illusion of some self worth...pretty sad!!... I wouldn't play you for the time of day but maybe someone else here might take the chance on playing #1...esp for that kind of $$
Why don't you take 6 months off and recheck the lighting aim system again, and this time add in some tuck and roll( I'm still laughing over that "Hell yes, I use it" line...dumbest thing I've ever read on a pool message board...then come back here with a full report....????
We'll keep a light on for you...
By the way that "bet" gives you away as the dumbest wanna be hustler here. They used to call it high balling...a way to save face. A real player doesn't bet with his emotions...but a dumb sh*t like yourself can be goaded into a bet.

Artemus
02-18-2008, 06:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm not the one bragging about my pool game here...that's you Arty boy, ever since you arrived here...... Sorry, but I don't play pool for money, it's my recreation, seems like it must give you an illusion of some self worth...pretty sad!!... I wouldn't play you for the time of day but maybe someone else here might take the chance on playing #1...esp for that kind of $$
Why don't you take 6 months off and recheck the lighting aim system again, and this time add in some tuck and roll( I'm still laughing over that "Hell yes, I use it" line...dumbest thing I've ever read on a pool message board...then come back here with a full report....????
We'll keep a light on for you...
By the way that "bet" gives you away as the dumbest wanna be hustler here. They used to call it high balling...a way to save face. A real player doesn't bet with his emotions...but a dumb sh*t like yourself can be goaded into a bet.
<hr /></blockquote>

Well big mouth ArtemusSTALKER, I don't know if this post came before or after your LAME, CHILDISH PM to me. But you definitely seem obsessed. And you CERTAINLY weren't trying to set up a money match.

First of all, you don't even KNOW what tuck and roll is. LMAO. You couldn't explain it if your life depended on it.
With the dementia and Alzheimer's taking over, it's a wonder you can even remember your name. Just in case you forgot, it's ArtemusSTALKER and your JOB is the self-appointed forum police here on CCB and behind the scenes whiner and crybaby to Admin. Cry old man, cry!

That wasn't a high ball that I threw at you. I'm DEAD SERIOUS about getting YOU to either put up or SHUT UP. I'll post MY money up front any way we can set it up and have you living out on the street where you can be a Condo Commando of the street people living under a bridge. Since golf is your thing and defines your life, I'll even take the same stab at that and play for whatever you want. There's no way I could lose to a broken down old man in a walker using a cheap clone driver instead of the real McCoy.

You'll be back posting and stalking, you can't help yourself. You're SICK! A very SICK old man. Anybody want to place a bet with me that the geezer will be back posting directly to my posts? I'll give heavy odds too.

Artemus
02-18-2008, 06:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr>
And just so we don't get off track here, I'd take a lesson from Scott in a minute. In fact, I emailed him and asked him to let me know when he'd be by my direction.
<hr /></blockquote>

Aside from doing personal damage control to look like a nice guy again in stating this, why would you want to take a lesson that's loaded with "misinformation" and "erroneous technical verbage" from Scott Lee?

I think a better question is, why would Scott want to drive all the way to North Dakota to give you a lesson?
I tried to come up with some plausible reasons and this is what I came up with:

1. Scott wants to kiss and make up after you attacked him and his teaching principles on AZ.

2. Scott needs to PROVE what he does is correct and get a seal of approval.

3. Scott needs affirmations that he's a good teacher.

4. Scott needs the money. (although he'd spend 5 times the amount in gasoline, food, and motel)

5. He's an extremely giving and altruistic person that is driven to make everybody playing pool better at the game.

It seems to me it wouldn't be that much of an actual playing lesson to get better as it would be an EVALUATION by you to determine what he DOES teach and say in a lesson based on your thread disagreement.

Scott may have already been snake bitten when he tried to PROVE something to a certain big mouth know-it-all poster on AZ who AV84fun has had personal warfare experience with and who has also been a co-conspirator of yours for a decade now. I'll take a stab in the dark and say that the lesson getter got back to you and discussed WHAT was stated and HOW it was presented moreso than how he may have benefitted or improved. (you can dispute that and disavow that it ever happened which I'm sure you will). But I think it's where some of the fodder came from when you were posting to him about the 1/2 ball hit, etc.

After Scott made his last post and was infuriated, in your attempt to promote "World Peace", you didn't post any more on THAT thread.

However, what you did to PROVE that you were right (or try to prove) was you IMMEDIATELY started 2 OTHER threads and got the Fargo film company to produce a couple of youtube vignettes about 1/2 ball hit and continued the argument indirectly, as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zysbWeI2_ZE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vRi3Jih1Lg

You took the BCA courses to become an accredited instructor yourself. You also have all kinds of video equipment available, which you've used to produce other stuff on youtube, why wouldn't you just tape yourself while playing from all angles and teach Mike Page what he should learn to be a better player and it would be with the wording and methods that YOU espouse?

Artemus
02-18-2008, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Dave is doing research and maybe it's up to others, or a team, to develop this further. I think Artemus is indicating that cerebral exercises are great, especially for those interested in such things, but for the general pool player out there, they may not be so much help. I don't think Dave has misrepresented his videos and has only offered them to us to use and review as we see fit. But, I think much more could be done with them.
<hr /></blockquote>

I want to expand on this post which was made much earlier because it's what the essence of this is all about and was well phrased and thought out.

This thread is just like most other threads where some controversy exists and the "piler's on" start entering the fray who didn't have the balls to speak up in the beginning and make some tackles themselves. Or, it's the psychophant lemmings that are part of a clique who take sides and anybody that speaks up against one of the other members in the clique gets castigated by the onrushing army.

There IS a lot of positives that COULD come from these videos and I'm sick and tired of you piler's on and self-appointed forum police who keep stating that I blasted them and was negative. LEARN TO READ!

It wasn't UNTIL I made the original post that Dave came back on and started explaining some of the videos, otherwise they would have just hung there, for what reason I have NO idea. He gave a brief explanation of how the videos would help to interpret rules violations with double hits or illegal push shots, which was EXACTLY what was needed and expounded upon some more. There could be a LOT done with that one as well as all the others.

EACH video needed and needs additional information to tell a better story about what was done to benefit the masses to become improved players. If the videos were done as a course in FILMOGRAPHY, then the end result was achieved.

If it was to BENEFIT players and forum members, more is NEEDED and ALL OF YOU can quit being NEGATIVE yourselves and start being POSITIVE and add to each video as you interpret it and see fit!

My job is done, I brought it to light. The rest is up to YOU for POSITIVE input and DEVELOPMENT. And if you can't provide it or refuse to and keep up the badgering, then SHAME ON YOU.

So take them one at a time, what did you learn - what additional info do you feel is necessary or needs to be explained - how will you implement it into your game - what didn't you understand or have additional questions about?

mikepage
02-18-2008, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr>
And just so we don't get off track here, I'd take a lesson from Scott in a minute. In fact, I emailed him and asked him to let me know when he'd be by my direction.
<hr /></blockquote>

Aside from doing personal damage control to look like a nice guy again in stating this, why would you want to take a lesson that's loaded with "misinformation" and "erroneous technical verbage" from Scott Lee? <hr /></blockquote>

Four things:

(1) You quote "misinformation" and "erroneous technical verbage (sic)" as though I used those phrases. I didn't.

(2) The discussion of what is and what isn't a "half-ball hit" started when I used the phrase in my aiming videos and Randy G. commented that what I called a half-ball hit wasn't a half-ball hit.

(3) I have always had great respect for Scott and Randy's instruction. There's nothing new about that. From the exchange you brought up, I said

"I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience and your commitment to billiard instruction."

That discussion was about his nonstandard use of a few terms. I criticized that and I still criticize that. But please don't generalize that into something it isn't.

(4) I don't know whether this is really a moderated group or not. In the decade I've been using these groups, I've never complained to a moderator or authority about a contributor.

But your steadfast efforts, Artemus, to deteriorate any quality on this board is matched only by that of Fast Larry.

I'm not going to contribute here anymore as long as you are participating.

Artemus
02-18-2008, 09:40 AM
They were just questions that came to mind based on your AZ interaction which WAS NOT very positive. You can take them any way you want, which you obviously did. I'm sure Scott will be happy to hear how strongly you still feel about certain ways to express and teach a concept and will be rushing out to give you a lesson to prove otherwise.

Fast Larry was in a league of his own. NOBODY could compare to him.

If your final farewell is a way to DEFLECT or SPIN your own misdeeds and mud wrestling to me, don't worry about it. You can stay, the clique needs you more than they do me and I certainly don't need the clique.

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 10:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>By "digesting" it, I meant an analysis which more or less demonstrates that with some cue elevation (perhaps zero), and a certain distance between the balls, the cueball will retain the most backspin as it reaches the object ball. Some pros do say that elevating beyond normal does get you more draw when there is a lot of distance between them.

I've done the math for a bouncing ball, but it still needs more work as it doesn't include the time the ball is in contact with the cloth during each bounce. The main problem though is in knowing the initial state of the ball as it leaves the tip and cloth. This, along with bed contact time, requires some measurements. Obviously, these will vary a bit from table to table and cloth to cloth, but one good example should tell us something.

Perhaps you or others have already done the analysis/experimentation and come to some definite conclusions?<hr /></blockquote>I have not done this analysis, but it is certainly on my list. Let us know what you come up with.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>In looking at the video again, it doesn't appear as if the shots are being done on a normal table surface. Can you tell us more about this? Thanks.<hr /></blockquote>All of the shots in all of these videos are on the normal table surface. For some shots, I put paper down between the balls and the rails to help with lighting and contrast, but the balls never touched the paper.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> Great stuff, Dave. Sorry your post was half-butchered, rather unfortunate.<hr /></blockquote>I also wish there were more discussion and debate and less personal attacks; but lately, there seems to be a lot more of the latter. Maybe it's because this is an election year. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr>A couple of questions that come to mind:
On the power draw, would you say that a slight amount of elevation is good(on account of the cueball being airborn)? I seem to need to do that a bit, when more than 5 or 6 feet of distance comes into play.<hr /></blockquote>I think this depends on the shot speed, table conditions, cue squirt, and exact amount of elevation. I think, in general, the answer is probably "yes," but I haven't studied this (with experiments or physics).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr>Next, on the jump shots and the slate....what would be the rule of thumb, for the thickness? Assuming bar tables have thinner slate, what would be the adjustment needed for jumping? I always thought it was the crappy cloth that made it a bit easier to jump on a bar table, but was never really sure what did it.<hr /></blockquote>I think most bar boxes have relatively thick slate. I think a thicker slate and thicker cloth make jumping easier.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr>As I mentioned in a different thread, I am new to jumping with a jump cue. So, I was impressed by the last jump, in HSV B.3 - various jump shot techniques. Free-handed, and sooo close to the blocking ball, very nifty. Nice to see that when even closer than a half a ball, full ball jumps are still possible. Until then, I had only seen shafts jump that close. Something for me to work on, thanks Dave!<hr /></blockquote>The key is a longer bridge length for more speed, and a very light grip. It helps to think of throwing the cue at the ball (rather than forcing the cue into the ball). As I have pointed out before, there is more jump shot advice here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html) under "jump shot."

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm not the one bragging about my pool game here...that's you Arty boy, ever since you arrived here...... Sorry, but I don't play pool for money, it's my recreation, seems like it must give you an illusion of some self worth...pretty sad!!... I wouldn't play you for the time of day but maybe someone else here might take the chance on playing #1...esp for that kind of $$
Why don't you take 6 months off and recheck the lighting aim system again, and this time add in some tuck and roll( I'm still laughing over that "Hell yes, I use it" line...dumbest thing I've ever read on a pool message board...then come back here with a full report....????
We'll keep a light on for you...
By the way that "bet" gives you away as the dumbest wanna be hustler here. They used to call it high balling...a way to save face. A real player doesn't bet with his emotions...but a dumb sh*t like yourself can be goaded into a bet.<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Wolfie-Boy, /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wow. I'm impressed. You can really "bring it" when called upon. I think I would like to have you in my corner if I ever had to face a gang of real hooligans.

Normally, I wouldn't condone such posts; but in this case, I think it was appropriate. But it seems to me this ain't going anywhere but farther down and dirtier, so I would recommend calling this one quits.

Regards,
Dave

ccboard_admin_back
02-18-2008, 02:51 PM
Can we all take a step back and relax a little. This thread just seems to have devolved into name calling and nothing else.

Admin

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ccboard_admin:</font><hr> Can we all take a step back and relax a little. This thread just seems to have devolved into name calling and nothing else.

Admin <hr /></blockquote>Thank you for reminding us all to be civil, respectful, tolerant, and appropriate in our discussions and debate.

Disagreements are OK ... personal attacks aren't.

Regards,
Dave

Qtec
02-18-2008, 08:28 PM
Dave, thanks for the vids.

We don't always see eye to eye Dave but IMO these personal attacks are way out of line.

Q

Jal
02-18-2008, 08:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>All of the shots in all of these videos are on the normal table surface. For some shots, I put paper down between the balls and the rails to help with lighting and contrast, but the balls never touched the paper.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you Dr. Dave. That's important to know. May I ask one more thing. If the weight of the cue was substantially different than 19 oz, say something less than 18 or more than 20, could you let me know? Otherwise I'll assume 19 oz. Thanks.

Jim

Qtec
02-18-2008, 08:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The key is a longer bridge length for more speed, and a very light grip. It helps to think of throwing the cue at the ball (rather than forcing the cue into the ball). As I have pointed out before, there is more jump shot advice here under "jump shot."

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Letting go?

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

wolfdancer
02-18-2008, 08:40 PM
I found the perfect "return" today....sailing on the Lake, surrounded by mountains...moderate temp, nice breeze.A perfect Zen setting...even with my friends 6 yr old along.

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 10:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Dave, thanks for the vids.

We don't always see eye to eye Dave but IMO these personal attacks are way out of line.

Q<hr /></blockquote>Q,

Thanks for the message.

I'll be doing another HSV session soon. If you want to see anything in particular, let me know. This offer is open to others as well.

Dave

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 10:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>All of the shots in all of these videos are on the normal table surface. For some shots, I put paper down between the balls and the rails to help with lighting and contrast, but the balls never touched the paper.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you Dr. Dave. That's important to know. May I ask one more thing. If the weight of the cue was substantially different than 19 oz, say something less than 18 or more than 20, could you let me know? Otherwise I'll assume 19 oz. Thanks.<hr /></blockquote>I think Tom used his cue on the draw shots. His cue was 19 oz (I think) and had a Predator 314 shaft. If it wasn't that, it was my 19 oz Predator Z. Next time, I'll be more careful to weigh the cues and balls used for the shots for which you might do calculations.

Regards,
Dave

CarolNYC
02-19-2008, 06:58 AM
Hi Dave,
I was hit with the flu since Saturday,100 fever,went to doctors yesterday,have ear infection to boot,taking antibiotic,but much better today,thank God,so,I hope everyone is well!
I didnt read all the posts,I stopped after it got bitter!
As for Tom Ross,he's cute and I like the voice on the video-nice and mellow!


[ QUOTE ]


HSV B.1 - draw shot cue and ball reaction
<hr /></blockquote>
This is good for beginners to see,but I think,alittle further after impact with object ball would have been cool!

[ QUOTE ]
HSV B.2 - Illegal "scoop" jump shots <hr /></blockquote>
As Dave said, "illegal" dont do it!

[ QUOTE ]
HSV B.3 - various jump shot techniques <hr /></blockquote>
Along with "rail" jump,hand on table jumpshot could have been added-you dont always have that ideal "rail" jumpshot,and again,INTO an object ball-but for technique purposes,nice-Im a conventional jumper and only jump when I cant kick-I feel jumping has a luck factor in it cause once its in the air,its like "poking and hoping" unless, the object ball is hanging

[ QUOTE ]
HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot <hr /></blockquote>
This is advanced-nice to see,but I'd never do it!

[ QUOTE ]
HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance <hr /></blockquote>
If you have a shot like this,call ref to watch it-I believe your suppose to aim away

[ QUOTE ]
HSV B.8 - jump shot off the rail
<hr /></blockquote>
I think again,very advanced shot-

[ QUOTE ]
HSV B.9 - cue deflection and vibration
<hr /></blockquote>
Very dark,couldnt see it!

Carol

Bambu
02-19-2008, 08:01 AM
During your next HSV session, I would like to request some long distance power draw. If possible, different distances and a slight amount of cue elevation(in addition to as level as possible) would be really cool to see and analyze.
Thanks Dave, and Tom Ross, too. I love watching tom on tv because he always looks like the happiest guy around. He could be in last place, but wouldnt even care. He just looks so happy to be there, that you cant help but root for him.

Bambu
02-19-2008, 08:29 AM
Interesting. Thanks again, Dave.

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hi Dave,
I was hit with the flu since Saturday,100 fever,went to doctors yesterday,have ear infection to boot,taking antibiotic,but much better today,thank God,so,I hope everyone is well!<hr /></blockquote>I'm glad you're better now.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>I didnt read all the posts,I stopped after it got bitter!<hr /></blockquote>It seems like the bitterness has stopped (for now, anyway). Maybe meaningful and interesting discussion can occur now.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>As for Tom Ross,he's cute<hr /></blockquote>I'm sure he'll like to here that. BTW, he's single and a very good pool player. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>and I like the voice on the video-nice and mellow!<hr /></blockquote>Thank you. That's me.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>HSV B.1 - draw shot cue and ball reaction (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-1.htm)
This is good for beginners to see,but I think,alittle further after impact with object ball would have been cool!<hr /></blockquote>What exactly are you hoping to see? HSV 4.1 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV4-1.htm) shows what happens when the CB hits the OB with good draw action. HSV 3.1 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV3-1.htm) shows how bottom spin is lost during drag. NV B.9 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-9.htm) also shows the big picture (albeit with less-than perfect form). The HSV camera can only store about 2 seconds of video at a time, and the resolution is limited. That's why I need to isolate and zoom up on specific things.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>HSV B.2 - Illegal "scoop" jump shots (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-2.htm)
As Dave said, "illegal" dont do it!<hr /></blockquote>Good point. Why do you and others think this shot should be illegal? Is it because it is too easy? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>HSV B.3 - various jump shot techniques (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-3.htm)
Along with "rail" jump,hand on table jumpshot could have been added-you dont always have that ideal "rail" jumpshot,and again,INTO an object ball-but for technique purposes,nice-Im a conventional jumper and only jump when I cant kick-I feel jumping has a luck factor in it cause once its in the air,its like "poking and hoping" unless, the object ball is hanging<hr /></blockquote>Lately, I've been practicing my dart stroke, and my jump accuracy is pretty good now. When a rail is not conveniently located, it helps to have long fingers (like me), for a tall elevated bridge.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm)This is advanced-nice to see,but I'd never do it!<hr /></blockquote>I think I would attempt it only if I had to jump over only a small part of a ball, and if there were no better options (e.g., a high-percentage safety). Tom is amazingly consistent and accurate with this type of shot, but he has practiced it a bunch.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>HSV B.6 - double hit detection and avoidance (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-6.htm)
If you have a shot like this,call ref to watch it-I believe your suppose to aim away<hr /></blockquote>I think this depends on the rules under which you are playing.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>HSV B.8 - jump shot off the rail (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-8.htm)I think again,very advanced shot-<hr /></blockquote>It's actually relatively easy, but I agree it probably wouldn't be used much (if at all) by most non-trick-shot-artist players.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>HSV B.9 - cue deflection and vibration (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-9.htm)
Very dark,couldnt see it!<hr /></blockquote>Agreed. I should have added more light. Even 1000 Watts of lights, which is what I used, isn't always enough for the HSV camera on some shots; although, it's enough to get a sun tan.

Thank you for your comments and suggestions,
Dave

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> During your next HSV session, I would like to request some long distance power draw. If possible, different distances and a slight amount of cue elevation(in addition to as level as possible) would be really cool to see and analyze.<hr /></blockquote>Are you hoping to see how the bottom spin wears off with various speeds and distances, with and without a little cue elevation? If so, I already have this on my list. If not, let me know what you want to see.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr>Thanks Dave, and Tom Ross, too. I love watching tom on tv because he always looks like the happiest guy around. He could be in last place, but wouldnt even care. He just looks so happy to be there, that you cant help but root for him.<hr /></blockquote>I think you are thinking of Tom Rossman, not Tom Ross. Tom Rossman is a trick-shot artist. Tom Ross is an instructional columnist for BD and a pool instructor (and a good player).

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 10:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>The key is a longer bridge length for more speed, and a very light grip. It helps to think of throwing the cue at the ball (rather than forcing the cue into the ball). As I have pointed out before, there is more jump shot advice here under "jump shot."<hr /></blockquote>Letting go?

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif<hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure what you mean; but I'm guessing you disagree. I should have been more clear that it is like a dart-throwing motion with mostly (if not all) wrist, with a very light grip. Is that more palatable?

Regards,
Dave

Bambu
02-19-2008, 11:32 AM
I do want to see how the bottom spin wears off, but can that effect change with distance? And I have seen tha video, thanks dave. But what I am really interested in, is how distance effects draw. Most people have a certain range, where draw eventually becomes impossible. I think its mostly cue speed which will determine that point, followed by the low hit, but I cant be sure. I would want to see if the cueball comes off the table(or any other differences) when you draw a 7 or 8 foot shot.
Sorry I got Tom mixed up with the trick shot guy. I was never very good with names. Thanks, Dave.

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> I do want to see how the bottom spin wears off, but can that effect change with distance?<hr /></blockquote>More spin wears off with more distance. To get draw a greater distances, you need more speed and/or more bottom spin. Am I missing your point here?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr>I would want to see if the cueball comes off the table(or any other differences) when you draw a 7 or 8 foot shot.<hr /></blockquote>With a near level cue, the CB will not hop (as shown in HSV B.1 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-1.htm)). With slight cue elevation, the CB will be driven into the table and hop (as shown in HSV B.1 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-1.htm)). The force into the table will be greater and the hop distance will be longer with more speed. Again, am I missing your point here?

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
02-19-2008, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> I do want to see how the bottom spin wears off, but can that effect change with distance? ... <hr /></blockquote>
The simple theory is that the cue ball loses a fixed number of RPMs per second on its way to the object ball. If the cue ball is hopping on its way to the object ball, it will lose draw only on the landings, but the simple theory says that the total loss of draw on the way to the object ball will be about the same. It would be interesting to see the nearly instantaneous loss of spin on a landing.

The theory also says that if the cue ball is hopping with draw off an object ball, or maybe hopping from a masse shot, it will travel in straight lines between the landings as seen from above, but the path will take abrupt turns at the times of the landings. This is seen on the Austrian video (infra-red and slo-mo) mentioned before.

One consequence to practical play of the first paragraph is that to get best draw for a particular stick speed off a distant ball it is sometimes better to cue higher on the cue ball. The closer to center you hit, the faster the cue ball will be going at the start. It is a balance between getting there quickly and not losing as many RPMs and starting with more RPMs and losing more due to the slower cue ball travel.

This wrinkle is well-modeled in Virtual Pool and is easy to see if you have "tracking" turned on. I think that something like VP is a good thing for anyone interested in billiard physics to fool around with. There are only a few techniques that it doesn't understand. The lead developer is quite a good pool player. www.celeris.com (http://www.celeris.com)

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 03:33 PM
Bob,

Excellent post! I hope to do some experiments and theory soon to test out the validity of the hop/spin-loss stuff. I'll be sure to first check out what Marlow and Shepard have on the topic.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> I do want to see how the bottom spin wears off, but can that effect change with distance? ... <hr /></blockquote>
The simple theory is that the cue ball loses a fixed number of RPMs per second on its way to the object ball. If the cue ball is hopping on its way to the object ball, it will lose draw only on the landings, but the simple theory says that the total loss of draw on the way to the object ball will be about the same. It would be interesting to see the nearly instantaneous loss of spin on a landing.

The theory also says that if the cue ball is hopping with draw off an object ball, or maybe hopping from a masse shot, it will travel in straight lines between the landings as seen from above, but the path will take abrupt turns at the times of the landings. This is seen on the Austrian video (infra-red and slo-mo) mentioned before.

One consequence to practical play of the first paragraph is that to get best draw for a particular stick speed off a distant ball it is sometimes better to cue higher on the cue ball. The closer to center you hit, the faster the cue ball will be going at the start. It is a balance between getting there quickly and not losing as many RPMs and starting with more RPMs and losing more due to the slower cue ball travel.

This wrinkle is well-modeled in Virtual Pool and is easy to see if you have "tracking" turned on. I think that something like VP is a good thing for anyone interested in billiard physics to fool around with. There are only a few techniques that it doesn't understand. The lead developer is quite a good pool player. www.celeris.com (http://www.celeris.com) <hr /></blockquote>

JoeW
02-19-2008, 03:53 PM
Dave,
Could you get the amount of spin loss from your current videos? Seems they are time stamped and you might be able to get some estimate from a frame by frame playback using the table as a reference point?
A comparison of the level and angled sticks with and without hop might provide some estimate.

Just a thought that might save some work.

av84fun
02-19-2008, 04:02 PM
VERY interesting about long draw shots possibly being maximized by not hitting max low. THAT would explain why, on some such shots, I get far more that normal draw distances.

The odds heavily favor that I missed my "low as permissible" tip contact point to the high side. If I missed to the low side, I would launch the CB into the next county so, when I get good draw, I have either hit EXACTLY where I tried to hit or higher than that so...odds are, I hit high.

WOW...I'm going to WORK on that theory. I would imagine that if you are not aiming as low as permissible, then you might be emboldened to hit even harder!

Thanks!

Jim

JoeW
02-19-2008, 04:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> VERY interesting about long draw shots possibly being maximized by not hitting max low. THAT would explain why, on some such shots, I get far more that normal draw distances.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

I like that too, it implies that one could pick one spot, possibly near center, for draw and then control the amount of draw with the amount of speed / power.
Always ni.ce to remove one variable from the equation /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

wolfdancer
02-19-2008, 04:10 PM
The problem it seems is that many believe what they write about pool, comes "down from the Mount" and to express a different opinion is heresy. In olden days they would have us stoned for such blasphemy...nowadays we can get stoned on our own..

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 04:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> Dave,
Could you get the amount of spin loss from your current videos? Seems they are time stamped and you might be able to get some estimate from a frame by frame playback using the table as a reference point?
A comparison of the level and angled sticks with and without hop might provide some estimate.

Just a thought that might save some work.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think I have any good clips showing a clean 2nd bounce, where both the spin in and spin out can be calculated more accurately with more data on both sides of the bounce. With the 1st bounce, it's not clear how much spin the ball has immediately off the tip and before the ball drives into the table.

I can also do some ball-drop tests (with different heights and spins) to get good estimates for other important parameters (COR and COF), and to see how these parameters might change with speed and spin. All of the experiments will use the time stamps from the HSV camera.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 04:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> VERY interesting about long draw shots possibly being maximized by not hitting max low. THAT would explain why, on some such shots, I get far more that normal draw distances.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

I like that too, it implies that one could pick one spot, possibly near center, for draw and then control the amount of draw with the amount of speed / power.
Always ni.ce to remove one variable from the equation /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>Whatever method you use, you still need to have a "feel" or "intuition" for how much draw you will get at different speeds and with different table conditions (for a given tip offset). Bob's point is good that one's consistency can be better hitting higher and harder rather than lower and softer. However, to achieve lots of draw action with some shots (e.g., on a long power-draw shot), you must hit the CB both low and hard.

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-19-2008, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> The problem it seems is that many believe what they write about pool, comes "down from the Mount" and to express a different opinion is heresy. In olden days they would have us stoned for such blasphemy...nowadays we can get stoned on our own.. <hr /></blockquote>

I see few posts here from people who hold themselves out to be in possession of "the received truth."

What I see vastly more often is people...at least one of whom is well known to you...who seem to take offense if someone expresses an opposite view...however politely.

Such people feel they are being ridiculed in public and elect to carry on debates in PMs wherein they express the view that they don't care if every one on the forum disagrees with them because they are right, regardless of unanimous opposition.

Such people hold to the belief that "top spin" or "over-rotation" caused by high english can sustain itself for over 5 feet and cite, in support of such a view, an opinion from an unnamed source to the effect that DRAW rotation can be sustained over long distances...which is correct but has nothing to do with follow english.

Personally, not only do I not mind being corrected...in public or otherwise...I am GRATEFUL for the instruction.

Others seem to be so ego-involved that they would rather wallow in ignorance than to be taught in public.

Not me.

Correct me whenever I'm wrong...PLEASE...and don't worry about being polite. RIP away...I could care less!

Just give me the TRUTH about pool because I can't defeat my opponents with my ego...only with knowledge and skill.

(-:
Jim

JoeW
02-19-2008, 05:48 PM
I am far from pro level and have been struggling with Bob Jewett’s power draw shot.
Essentially this involves placing the OB in the jaws of the corner pocket and attempting to draw back to the position from which one starts. I can reliably shoot from four diamonds away and return to the fourth diamond. I cannot do it from five diamonds away.

About 30 minutes ago I tried comparing four types of draw,
Level cue , low hit on CB
Level cue, slightly below center on CB
Angled cue low hit on CB

Angled cue, slightly below center on CB. This produced the best draw I have ever had. CB returned to fifth diamond. This is the only time I have ever done it in 50+ attempts.

When the OB is one diamond off the corner and the CB is two diamonds off the corner I can draw the CB the length of the table plus two diamonds with a level cue and a low hit on the CB.

Apparently when the CB must travel a long distance with draw the angled slightly below center draw is "best," for me. When the distance between the OB and CB is small (one diamond) the level cue with low hit works best.

I thought I had a pretty good ability to draw until I bumped into Bob’s power draw.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

av84fun
02-19-2008, 05:52 PM
mikepage..."I'm not going to contribute here anymore as long as you are participating."

I take no sides in your debate with Artemus and if anything, he might be more effective with less strident verbiage.

Having said that, please know that I respect your views but think it is unfortunate to the point of being petty for you to refuse to post here because of the expressions of any one poster.

I don't even know if there is an "ignore" feature on this forum but if not, you could create you own by simply electing not to read any given post.

Just my $0.02.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
02-19-2008, 06:04 PM
dr_dave..."The key is a longer bridge length for more speed, and a very light grip. It helps to think of throwing the cue at the ball (rather than forcing the cue into the ball). As I have pointed out before, there is more jump shot advice here under "jump shot."

In addition to that excellent advice, when a very steep incline in required...or almost all jump shots undertaken by less-than-tall people, the forearm and upper arm must be slanted outward, sometimes as much as 75-80 degrees or so instead of using a traditional perpendicular arm orientation.

It takes PRACTICE to be able to execute that "side arm" orientation in a straight forward and backward plane (better put...upward and downward).

(carried to the extreme, that becomes a masse stroke in which the arm orientation is again nearly perpendicular...but UPSIDE DOWN.

Stroking "on a rail" with such an arm orientation is not imbedded in our "muscle memory" and must be learned.

When that reality finally made it through my thick skull, my jump height and accuracy improved significantly.

Regards,
Jim

cushioncrawler
02-19-2008, 08:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr>Dave, Could you get the amount of spin loss from your current videos? Seems they are time stamped and you might be able to get some estimate from a frame by frame playback using the table as a reference point? A comparison of the level and angled sticks with and without hop might provide some estimate. Just a thought that might save some work.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think I have any good clips showing a clean 2nd bounce, where both the spin in and spin out can be calculated more accurately with more data on both sides of the bounce. With the 1st bounce, it's not clear how much spin the ball has immediately off the tip and before the ball drives into the table. I can also do some ball-drop tests (with different heights and spins) to get good estimates for other important parameters (COR and COF), and to see how these parameters might change with speed and spin. All of the experiments will use the time stamps from the HSV camera. Regards, Dave<hr /></blockquote>Dr Dave -- I agree with Bob -- most of this came up in an earlyr thread -- eg hitting higher but harder.

I might add that the trick iz to have the Qball hit the Oball just before the next bounce (ie just before the Qball lands). I reckon that the bounce distance during the first bounce (the first bounce being during the Qtip contact) iz mostly clear gain. Not to mention that bouncing obviates 8' of rolling rezistance (not sure how to think about this?? -- an energy thing perhaps??).

But i think that a simple sort of drop test would be missleading -- the Qball-to-bed friktion would be less during a "real" shot, koz the Vskid would be more.

What about a robot input here. U could set up (jack-up) roboQ so that the Qball bounces (for the second time) a long wayz away, then put the Oball at varyus distances before and after that point. And could re-do this for less jack-up (and hencely more bounces, but same power) etc. In fact might even be able to look into the effekt of "less" draw but more speed.

Just thort of something. If a Qball hits "on the way down", then the Vzz would reduce some of the "apparent" backspin, ie reduce the ball-to-ball skidding, and rezult in more retained backspin. Hmmmm -- nope, it wouldnt -- ignore this. madMac.

wolfdancer
02-19-2008, 08:43 PM
What seems to be your problem here? I sent you a simple pm, trying to explain what I had posted....then you replied with a schoolboy taunting "are you afraid everyone here will side with me, against you?" AND then you felt you had to take the matter public to try to make yourself look good at my expense. I didn't take that bait either...but asked Mr. Bob Jewett, for an opinion re the controversy...and pm'd you with his reply...which should have ended things Nothing there went against your ideas, but I didn't ride the short bus to the pool hall....as you seemed to imply, explaining what a stun shot was.
It's just a game...Ive worked in pool rooms, ran tournaments, attended pro tournaments, won my share of local events, bought many book and videos...but I'm retired and just play for the enjoyment of playing. I'm not looking for any new teachers, thank you,and Randy, Scott, Steve, or a friend recently certified as a BCA instructor, would be my preferences, ahead of you.
Your last post though is way out of line. You are just trying to be insulting, and make yourself look good in the process...IMO
Rather then join in the fun....there's been enough name calling here....I'm just going to let it slide....let anybody interested, decide for themselves....who has the ego problem here

wolfdancer
02-19-2008, 09:44 PM
Mike, I'm sorry to see you go, as I enjoyed your posts, and have benefited from your videos.
You shouldn't have had to put up with that continuous attack, and even Blackjack, who rarely posts here, decided a response was in order.

av84fun
02-19-2008, 11:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> What seems to be your problem here? I sent you a simple pm, trying to explain what I had posted....then you replied with a schoolboy taunting "are you afraid everyone here will side with me, against you?" AND then you felt you had to take the matter public to try to make yourself look good at my expense. I didn't take that bait either...but asked Mr. Bob Jewett, for an opinion re the controversy...and pm'd you with his reply...which should have ended things Nothing there went against your ideas, but I didn't ride the short bus to the pool hall....as you seemed to imply, explaining what a stun shot was.
It's just a game...Ive worked in pool rooms, ran tournaments, attended pro tournaments, won my share of local events, bought many book and videos...but I'm retired and just play for the enjoyment of playing. I'm not looking for any new teachers, thank you,and Randy, Scott, Steve, or a friend recently certified as a BCA instructor, would be my preferences, ahead of you.
Your last post though is way out of line. You are just trying to be insulting, and make yourself look good in the process...IMO
Rather then join in the fun....there's been enough name calling here....I'm just going to let it slide....let anybody interested, decide for themselves....who has the ego problem here

<hr /></blockquote>


Well, the FACT is that you sent me a total of SIX PMs all of which I replied to very politely and with the intention of sharing knowledge. Regarding those posts you thanked me for the explanations!!!!! Correct???????????????

Suggesting that I replied with

"schoolboy taunting "are you afraid everyone here will side with me, against you?"

is an utter falsehood as you know perfectly well.

Then you wrote..."but I didn't ride the short bus to the pool hall....as you seemed to imply, explaining what a stun shot was."

Well, EXCUSE ME but it was YOU who wrote to the effect that a topspinning ball striks the OB "like a stun shot" (see exact quote below) and THAT is why...IN A PRIVATE PM SO AS NOT TO EMBARRASS YOU IN PUBLIC, I explained what a stun shot is. But as you are now proving, no good deed goes unpunished.

As for your insinuation of name calling as you know perfectly well, I have not engaged in that practice with you.

With regard to Mr. Jewett's reply...who was the source you refused to disclose in you PM to me...it had NOTHING to do with the "controversy" so his comments could not possibly have ended it!

Here is what you posted re: Billy-Bob's original question about FORCE FOLLOW on a shot where the CB travels over 5 1/2 FEET.
"I'd guess that speed is the key....on a very hard shot the cue ball will be skidding at impact, like a stun shot."

Suggesting that the CB would skid for 5 1/2 feet with HIGH TOP ENGLISH and then miraculously STOP ROTATING JUST BEFORE IT STRIKES THE OB WHICH IS THE FREAKING DEFINITION OF A STUN SHOT IS PREPOSTEROUS!

I did not state that here on the forum but POLITELY tried to explain certain issues regarding which you are obviously ignorant.

Further, and finally, on the "name calling issue" the following are YOUR statements to Artemus...

"It'll be interesting to see how a banger hack amateur social player puts it into words, even if it is YOU. LMAO

"you come off like a total a** in your posts..."

And don't give me any childish bantering about him calling you names first (if he did).

You are TOTALLY off base here sir...including the publication of outright FALSEHOODS about my PRIVATE comments to you... and I suggest you stand down NOW to avoid further embarrassment because you are WAY over your head.

And please stop bugging me with your insipid PMs.

THANK YOU!

)-:

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 02:14 AM
Drop, the subject will you?...You said exactly what I wrote, AND I told you if you HAD to make it public...to go ahead, ... you couldn't wait for the ink to dry before doing that...I don't know what pi**ed you off in my pm...maybe the two where I said that I'm sorry, but I disagree with you....guess that rankled you some
Why anyone, unless they had some problem with somebody questioning there authority would try to start a public debate over that, is beyond me. And I "thanked you" sarcastically for explaining to me what everyone learns in the first few months.....

Your error message was probably from trying to send an email to me....I checked the stop receiving pms box, to end this discussion...
It's a pool discussion board, by the way...there are even disagreements among the instructors...so if you can't stand a little debate....
I think you have said it all, anyway...you called me a liar, you pointed out that I don't know sh*t about the game...any other insults you might add....I won't be reading them...sorry!!

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 02:23 AM
The "Many" I referred to was you and Artemus....thought that was self explanatory...

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 02:39 AM
the "many" were Artemus and you...thought that was self explanatory.
While you think it "petty" for Mike to quit rather then deal with the constant stream of taunts and insults ......I'm surprised that Mike put up with it for as long as he did.
I admire both Mike and Dr. Dave for their restraint.....I don't have that kind of self control

CarolNYC
02-20-2008, 07:11 AM
Hi Dave,
[ QUOTE ]
What exactly are you hoping to see? <hr /></blockquote>
Well, you know how you have that slow-motion side angle of the draw? Just out of curiosity,I wanted to see the slow-motion side angle of the cueball-object ball on impact of a draw shot -the cueball has to stop for a split second when it hits the object ball ,right? Then continue to rotate backwards?

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you and others think this shot should be illegal? Is it because it is too easy?<hr /></blockquote>

Because the rules say so,ha ha ha-just kidding /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Never thought of it, but, I'd say cause your cue is hitting the table,your ferrule is hitting the cueball and like you said,multiple hits on the cueball

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure he'll like to here that. BTW, he's single and a very good pool player <hr /></blockquote>
Well then, I'll let all the single ladies know that /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Even 1000 Watts of lights, which is what I used, isn't always enough for the HSV camera on some shots; although, it's enough to get a sun tan.
<hr /></blockquote>
There you go-a new invention-get a tan while playing pool!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Stay well!

Carol

dr_dave
02-20-2008, 10:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JoeW:</font><hr> I am far from pro level and have been struggling with Bob Jewett’s power draw shot.
Essentially this involves placing the OB in the jaws of the corner pocket and attempting to draw back to the position from which one starts. I can reliably shoot from four diamonds away and return to the fourth diamond. I cannot do it from five diamonds away.

About 30 minutes ago I tried comparing four types of draw,
Level cue , low hit on CB
Level cue, slightly below center on CB
Angled cue low hit on CB

Angled cue, slightly below center on CB. This produced the best draw I have ever had. CB returned to fifth diamond. This is the only time I have ever done it in 50+ attempts.

When the OB is one diamond off the corner and the CB is two diamonds off the corner I can draw the CB the length of the table plus two diamonds with a level cue and a low hit on the CB.

Apparently when the CB must travel a long distance with draw the angled slightly below center draw is "best," for me. When the distance between the OB and CB is small (one diamond) the level cue with low hit works best.

I thought I had a pretty good ability to draw until I bumped into Bob’s power draw.<hr /></blockquote>Joe,

Thank you for sharing that. All of Bob's progressive drills are great for practicing various skills.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-20-2008, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>the trick iz to have the Qball hit the Oball just before the next bounce (ie just before the Qball lands).<hr /></blockquote>Good point. Based on the theory Bob described, if the CB hits the OB immediately after a bounce, it will have less draw action than a non-bouncing CB (I think).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>the first bounce being during the Qtip contact<hr /></blockquote>It's not clear to me if the bulk of the first-bounce dynamics occurs during or after tip contact. I'll try to film a new clip at higher frame rates zoomed up on the tip and ball, so we can see this better.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-20-2008, 10:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>What exactly are you hoping to see?<hr /></blockquote> Well, you know how you have that slow-motion side angle of the draw? Just out of curiosity,I wanted to see the slow-motion side angle of the cueball-object ball on impact of a draw shot -the cueball has to stop for a split second when it hits the object ball ,right? Then continue to rotate backwards?<hr /></blockquote>I have a good overhead view of this in HSV 4.1 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV4-1.htm). Check it out.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Why do you and others think this shot should be illegal? Is it because it is too easy?<hr /></blockquote>Because the rules say so,ha ha ha-just kidding /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Never thought of it, but, I'd say cause your cue is hitting the table,your ferrule is hitting the cueball and like you said,multiple hits on the cueball<hr /></blockquote>Actually, the main point of HSV B.2 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-2.htm) is to show that a "scoop" shot usually has only a single non-miscue hit of the tip, with no ferrule or shaft contact. That's why I am curious why the shot should be illegal.

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-20-2008, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Drop, the subject will you?...You said exactly what I wrote, AND I told you if you HAD to make it public...to go ahead, ... you couldn't wait for the ink to dry before doing that...I don't know what pi**ed you off in my pm...maybe the two where I said that I'm sorry, but I disagree with you....guess that rankled you some
Why anyone, unless they had some problem with somebody questioning there authority would try to start a public debate over that, is beyond me. And I "thanked you" sarcastically for explaining to me what everyone learns in the first few months.....

Your error message was probably from trying to send an email to me....I checked the stop receiving pms box, to end this discussion...
It's a pool discussion board, by the way...there are even disagreements among the instructors...so if you can't stand a little debate....
I think you have said it all, anyway...you called me a liar, you pointed out that I don't know sh*t about the game...any other insults you might add....I won't be reading them...sorry!!



<hr /></blockquote>
The only thing that p****d me off is your FALSE characterizations of what I posted and PMd you...in response to YOUR initiation of an entire series of PMs to me.

And by the way...the SUBJECT title in one of your PMs was "You are correct" and there was NOTHING "sarcastic" in your PM when you plainly and simply thanked me for my explanations which LEAD you to write "You are correct."

But you don't have the INTEGRITY to admit that on the open forum...just in a PM.

Why is that?

[ QUOTE ]
And I "thanked you" sarcastically for explaining to me what everyone learns in the first few months.....<hr /></blockquote>

Well, you must have been absent from class during your first few months because you statements ON THIS FORUM prove conclusively that you have no idea what a stun shot is!!

And for the record, do you STILL think that a force follow shot hits the OB "like a stun shot"? Or did my explanation, that you now characterize as something I should only be thanked for sarcastically, actually provide you with information you ON RECORD as being confused about.

And NO YOU DID NOT characterize my comments truthfully.

[ QUOTE ]
Why anyone, unless they had some problem with somebody questioning there authority would try to start a public debate over that, is beyond me.<hr /></blockquote>

Let me help you with that question. BECAUSE THIS IS A PUBLIC DISCUSSION FORUM THE VERY PURPOSE OF WHICH IS TO...UMMM....DISCUSS THINGS HAVING TO DO WITH POOL...TO LEARN IN SOME INSTANCES AND TO TEACH IN OTHERS.

GET IT????????????????

Apparantly NOT because YOU elected to continue the discussion PRIVATELY and for the now patently obvious reason that you were corrected in public and were unwilling to admit to that in public as you did to me privately in a PM.

Now, you block my PMs...which never would have been sent to you in the first place had you not sent a SERIES of them to me and to which I responed politely.

Are you on anti-grown up medication?


[ QUOTE ]
Drop, the subject will you?...<hr /></blockquote>

YOU drop it! I am merely responding to you.

)-:

dr_dave
02-20-2008, 11:51 AM
Enough is enough! Would you guys please grow up? /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

What's the point of all of this? It certainly doesn't reflect well on either of you. Also, I don't think anybody else (besides the two of you) really care who said what and when, so maybe you guys should continue via PM. Or better yet, why don't you try to meet in person and fight it out ... elementary schoolyard style? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Dismayed,
Dave /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Drop, the subject will you?...You said exactly what I wrote, AND I told you if you HAD to make it public...to go ahead, ... you couldn't wait for the ink to dry before doing that...I don't know what pi**ed you off in my pm...maybe the two where I said that I'm sorry, but I disagree with you....guess that rankled you some
Why anyone, unless they had some problem with somebody questioning there authority would try to start a public debate over that, is beyond me. And I "thanked you" sarcastically for explaining to me what everyone learns in the first few months.....

Your error message was probably from trying to send an email to me....I checked the stop receiving pms box, to end this discussion...
It's a pool discussion board, by the way...there are even disagreements among the instructors...so if you can't stand a little debate....
I think you have said it all, anyway...you called me a liar, you pointed out that I don't know sh*t about the game...any other insults you might add....I won't be reading them...sorry!!



<hr /></blockquote>
The only thing that p****d me off is your FALSE characterizations of what I posted and PMd you...in response to YOUR initiation of an entire series of PMs to me.

And by the way...the SUBJECT title in one of your PMs was "You are correct" and there was NOTHING "sarcastic" in your PM when you plainly and simply thanked me for my explanations which LEAD you to write "You are correct."

But you don't have the INTEGRITY to admit that on the open forum...just in a PM.

Why is that?

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
And I "thanked you" sarcastically for explaining to me what everyone learns in the first few months.....<hr /></blockquote>

Well, you must have been absent from class during your first few months because you statements ON THIS FORUM prove conclusively that you have no idea what a stun shot is!!

And for the record, do you STILL think that a force follow shot hits the OB "like a stun shot"? Or did my explanation, that you now characterize as something I should only be thanked for sarcastically, actually provide you with information you ON RECORD as being confused about.

And NO YOU DID NOT characterize my comments truthfully.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Why anyone, unless they had some problem with somebody questioning there authority would try to start a public debate over that, is beyond me.<hr /></blockquote>

Let me help you with that question. BECAUSE THIS IS A PUBLIC DISCUSSION FORUM THE VERY PURPOSE OF WHICH IS TO...UMMM....DISCUSS THINGS HAVING TO DO WITH POOL...TO LEARN IN SOME INSTANCES AND TO TEACH IN OTHERS.

GET IT????????????????

Apparantly NOT because YOU elected to continue the discussion PRIVATELY and for the now patently obvious reason that you were corrected in public and were unwilling to admit to that in public as you did to me privately in a PM.

Now, you block my PMs...which never would have been sent to you in the first place had you not sent a SERIES of them to me and to which I responed politely.

Are you on anti-grown up medication?


&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Drop, the subject will you?...<hr /></blockquote>

YOU drop it! I am merely responding to you.

)-: <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 12:08 PM
Dr. Dave, I agree with you, and sorry that this became a public dispute. It was a silly argument to begin with....but I withdrew my forces, a strategic advance to the rear, waved the white flag, etc.
Then oddly enough, while checking something out, ran across this:
web page (http://http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922)

I guess I won the silver Medal??

SpiderMan
02-20-2008, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I agree with you, and sorry that this became a public dispute. It was a silly argument to begin with....but I withdrew my forces, a strategic advance to the rear, waved the white flag, etc.
Then oddly enough, while checking something out, ran across this:
web page (http://http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922)

I guess I won the silver Medal?? <hr /></blockquote>

Your link was messed up, try this: web page (http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922)

SpiderMan

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 12:28 PM
This free site has short zen mp3's on it. The calmness, and the relaxation ones might be useful before a pool tournament. I'm listening to the Peace and Joy through the breath, right now....
web page (http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-meditation.htm)
Note: re, your UFC recommendation....I've had to register my hands as lethal weapons....after they saw how I can butcher a game of pool /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 12:33 PM
Thanks, that was the one I came across.
It's kind of grim humor though, and I've seen the joy that competing brings to these kids....God Bless their parents!!

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 12:39 PM
You win, my good man.
Everything that you wrote is absolutely true.

Bob_Jewett
02-20-2008, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> ... Well, you know how you have that slow-motion side angle of the draw? Just out of curiosity,I wanted to see the slow-motion side angle of the cueball-object ball on impact of a draw shot -the cueball has to stop for a split second when it hits the object ball ,right? Then continue to rotate backwards?... <hr /></blockquote>
Besides Dr. Dave's videos, there are a bunch of such sequences of both draw and follow shots from the side in the Jacksonville Project video. It is now available on-line on the AZBTV.com website www.azbtv.com (http://www.azbtv.com) . Click on the "Technical" thumbnail. I'm not sure what time/section the sequences are in, though.

DeadCrab
02-20-2008, 12:54 PM
That is the most offensive thing I have ever seen posted in this forum, and perhaps anywhere on the internet.

I am the parent of a severely disabled child, and I can assure you that their lives are tough enough without people going out of their way to ridicule them.




<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I agree with you, and sorry that this became a public dispute. It was a silly argument to begin with....but I withdrew my forces, a strategic advance to the rear, waved the white flag, etc.
Then oddly enough, while checking something out, ran across this:
web page (http://http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922)

I guess I won the silver Medal?? <hr /></blockquote>

Your link was messed up, try this: web page (http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922)

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

av84fun
02-20-2008, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Enough is enough! Would you guys please grow up? /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

What's the point of all of this? It certainly doesn't reflect well on either of you. Also, I don't think anybody else (besides the two of you) really care who said what and when, so maybe you guys should continue via PM. Or better yet, why don't you try to meet in person and fight it out ... elementary schoolyard style? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Dismayed,
Dave /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Drop, the subject will you?...You said exactly what I wrote, AND I told you if you HAD to make it public...to go ahead, ... you couldn't wait for the ink to dry before doing that...I don't know what pi**ed you off in my pm...maybe the two where I said that I'm sorry, but I disagree with you....guess that rankled you some
Why anyone, unless they had some problem with somebody questioning there authority would try to start a public debate over that, is beyond me. And I "thanked you" sarcastically for explaining to me what everyone learns in the first few months.....

Your error message was probably from trying to send an email to me....I checked the stop receiving pms box, to end this discussion...
It's a pool discussion board, by the way...there are even disagreements among the instructors...so if you can't stand a little debate....
I think you have said it all, anyway...you called me a liar, you pointed out that I don't know sh*t about the game...any other insults you might add....I won't be reading them...sorry!!



<hr /></blockquote>
The only thing that p****d me off is your FALSE characterizations of what I posted and PMd you...in response to YOUR initiation of an entire series of PMs to me.

And by the way...the SUBJECT title in one of your PMs was "You are correct" and there was NOTHING "sarcastic" in your PM when you plainly and simply thanked me for my explanations which LEAD you to write "You are correct."

But you don't have the INTEGRITY to admit that on the open forum...just in a PM.

Why is that?

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
And I "thanked you" sarcastically for explaining to me what everyone learns in the first few months.....<hr /></blockquote>

Well, you must have been absent from class during your first few months because you statements ON THIS FORUM prove conclusively that you have no idea what a stun shot is!!

And for the record, do you STILL think that a force follow shot hits the OB "like a stun shot"? Or did my explanation, that you now characterize as something I should only be thanked for sarcastically, actually provide you with information you ON RECORD as being confused about.

And NO YOU DID NOT characterize my comments truthfully.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Why anyone, unless they had some problem with somebody questioning there authority would try to start a public debate over that, is beyond me.<hr /></blockquote>

Let me help you with that question. BECAUSE THIS IS A PUBLIC DISCUSSION FORUM THE VERY PURPOSE OF WHICH IS TO...UMMM....DISCUSS THINGS HAVING TO DO WITH POOL...TO LEARN IN SOME INSTANCES AND TO TEACH IN OTHERS.

GET IT????????????????

Apparantly NOT because YOU elected to continue the discussion PRIVATELY and for the now patently obvious reason that you were corrected in public and were unwilling to admit to that in public as you did to me privately in a PM.

Now, you block my PMs...which never would have been sent to you in the first place had you not sent a SERIES of them to me and to which I responed politely.

Are you on anti-grown up medication?


&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Drop, the subject will you?...<hr /></blockquote>

YOU drop it! I am merely responding to you.

)-: <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Well, you telling me to "grow up" was both uncalled for and impudent. And I CAN'T carry this matter on in PMs because the wolfman blocked PMs from me in spite of the fact that each of my PM responses to him were both polite and informative.

Read the thread sir...and you will see that I have merely responded to his increasing bitter...and rather ignorant remarks.

If YOU don't mind being insulted, then I'm sure this post will be fine with you and you will find no need to respond.

I have NEVER intiated any unpleasant posts on this forum and rather, have done my best in contribute useful information...such as...by the way...point out to YOU that the cue tip RISES when the elbow drops...not the other way around as you stated.

In short...judge not lest ye be judged...and if you feel that I am not "grown up" why didn't you take your own unsolicited and unwelcome advice and send me a PM to that effect??

I didn't see any "grow up" comments from you regarding Mike's announcement that he would not post here because he doesn't like comments from ONE POSTER on this forum. Talk about not grown up...so why didn't you BUTT IN on that issue??

Finally, let me just ask you a simple and quite adult question. If you don't like reading the exchanges between me and wolfdancer....WHY DO YOU READ THEM???

Isn't that a little childish??

)-:

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 01:14 PM
Sorry that I brought it up...it is pretty offensive to people close to these kids. There was one in my extended family, but not a blood relative, and I partnered in a pool league last year with a moderately handicapped player. I should have used better judgment.

av84fun
02-20-2008, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I agree with you, and sorry that this became a public dispute. It was a silly argument to begin with....but I withdrew my forces, a strategic advance to the rear, waved the white flag, etc.
Then oddly enough, while checking something out, ran across this:
web page (http://http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922)

I guess I won the silver Medal?? <hr /></blockquote>

You didn't waive a white flag you IDIOT! You hurled falsehoods and insults. If you think that is a white flag you know even less about combat than you do pool.

And regarding you botched link...yep...make fun of the handicapped while you're at it.

av84fun
02-20-2008, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> You win, my good man.
Everything that you wrote is absolutely true.
<hr /></blockquote>

Ooops. Seems like you returned to the battlefield after supposedly having withdrawn.

And thanks for admitting that your earlier remarks about my comments to you were untruthful.

Good man. Confession is good for the soul.

NEXT!!
(-:

av84fun
02-20-2008, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Sorry that I brought it up...it is pretty offensive to people close to these kids. There was one in my extended family, but not a blood relative, and I partnered in a pool league last year with a moderately handicapped player. I should have used better judgment. <hr /></blockquote>

RIGHT! And you should have used better judgement when you elected to start a p***ing contest with me replete with mischaracterizations and falsehoods when I was merely trying to provide you...POLITELY...with useful information.
)-:

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 01:46 PM
I have turned my accept messages back on. I think you should vent privately, in a pm. I don't believe though, there is anything else constructive to add. You have your interpretation of events, and I have mine.
Since we now have dragged someone else into this petty spat...and the admin is trying to calm the board....it really is time to let it go....you already have my concessionary post...

av84fun
02-20-2008, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I have turned my accept messages back on. I think you should vent privately, in a pm. I don't believe though, there is anything else constructive to add. You have your interpretation of events, and I have mine.
Since we now have dragged someone else into this petty spat...and the admin is trying to calm the board....it really is time to let it go....you already have my concessionary post...

<hr /></blockquote>
Well thanks for sharing what you think I should do but YOU don't take your own advice by "venting" about me in PMs.

And WE haven't "dragged" anyone into this spat. Contributions to this forum are voluntary as far as I know.

And this is about the 4th time you have suggested that this exchange be brought to an end. Why don't you take your own advice and just BUTT OUT??

And what "concessionary post" are you referring to? The utterly sarcastic one?

NEXT!

av84fun
02-20-2008, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Sorry that I brought it up...it is pretty offensive to people close to these kids. There was one in my extended family, but not a blood relative, and I partnered in a pool league last year with a moderately handicapped player. I should have used better judgment. <hr /></blockquote>

Having read you statement more carefully, let me assure you that your unbelievably callous and uncaring remark was not just "pretty offensive to people close to these kids."

It was MASSIVELY offensive to any member of society...not merely those close to the afflicted children... who has a modicum of sensitivity to issues faced by those less fortunate that they are.

You should not only have admitted to using poor judgment but should be utterly ashamed.

)-:

Jal
02-20-2008, 04:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I think Tom used his cue on the draw shots. His cue was 19 oz (I think) and had a Predator 314 shaft. If it wasn't that, it was my 19 oz Predator Z. Next time, I'll be more careful to weigh the cues and balls used for the shots for which you might do calculations.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks Dr. Dave.

I've completed the math which predicts the speed/spin state and distance traveled after the i'th bounce. Assumptions are that mu and e (surface COR) and cloth bed contact time are independent of speed. I think these are reasonable, and may even be right (enough). If you would like to see it, that can be arranged. I know it's like having one of your students offer you his or her work for evaluation, but I believe it's as correct as the assumptions allow. If you prefer to just do it yourself sometime, I'll of course understand.

I've yet to take the measurements off the video to determine the initial state of the ball as functions of... but hope to begin forthwith (or before 2010). Thanks again. It looks as if future videos will either confirm or pulverize the theory.

Gratefully,
Jim

dr_dave
02-20-2008, 04:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>I've completed the math which predicts the speed/spin state and distance traveled after the i'th bounce. Assumptions are that mu and e (surface COR) and cloth bed contact time are independent of speed. I think these are reasonable, and may even be right (enough). If you would like to see it, that can be arranged. I know it's like having one of your students offer you his or her work for evaluation, but I believe it's as correct as the assumptions allow. If you prefer to just do it yourself sometime, I'll of course understand.<hr /></blockquote>I would like to compare notes after I get a chance to do some experiments and analysis myself.

So what's the bottom line from your analysis? For a given tip offset, does cue elevation increase draw action off the OB. And if so, under what conditions? How much does the final-bounce distance from the OB matter?

Also, what have you assumed about tip contact and the first bounce? Have you assume the CB has full spin before the first bounce (immediately after tip-CB impact)?

Regards,
Dave

CarolNYC
02-20-2008, 06:01 PM
Thanks Bob,
I had some difficulty-my screen kept freezing up, but I'll try again-I didnt know that website existed,but, Im not on the computer much /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif- thats pretty awesome!

Carol

CarolNYC
02-20-2008, 06:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That's why I am curious why the shot should be illegal.
<hr /></blockquote>
Incomplete stroke???

Carol

Bambu
02-20-2008, 07:04 PM
Sorry I worded my last post so badly. I wasnt really trying to make a point, only to try and understand why after a certain distance, I have problems with power draw. So I want to see what happens differently on a long distance draw shot, or if any adjustments besides more cue speed might help. If the pros are doing something differently,(aside from having a better stroke and more cue speed) I want to know what that is.
Hopefully, I will benefit from bobs advice. Hitting higher on the cueball is something I had never even considered.

Jal
02-20-2008, 07:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...So what's the bottom line from your analysis? For a given tip offset, does cue elevation increase draw action off the OB. And if so, under what conditions? How much does the final-bounce distance from the OB matter?

Also, what have you assumed about tip contact and the first bounce? Have you assume the CB has full spin before the first bounce (immediately after tip-CB impact)?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>I haven't gotten far enough to answer any of those questions. The math only covers what happens after the nasty business of the stick-ball-bed collision is complete and the ball has begun to take flight. Measurements from your video(s) will hopefully supply a more concrete rational for estimating its initial state.

Jim

Bambu
02-20-2008, 08:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> I do want to see how the bottom spin wears off, but can that effect change with distance? ... <hr /></blockquote>
The simple theory is that the cue ball loses a fixed number of RPMs per second on its way to the object ball. If the cue ball is hopping on its way to the object ball, it will lose draw only on the landings, but the simple theory says that the total loss of draw on the way to the object ball will be about the same. It would be interesting to see the nearly instantaneous loss of spin on a landing.

The theory also says that if the cue ball is hopping with draw off an object ball, or maybe hopping from a masse shot, it will travel in straight lines between the landings as seen from above, but the path will take abrupt turns at the times of the landings. This is seen on the Austrian video (infra-red and slo-mo) mentioned before.

One consequence to practical play of the first paragraph is that to get best draw for a particular stick speed off a distant ball it is sometimes better to cue higher on the cue ball. The closer to center you hit, the faster the cue ball will be going at the start. It is a balance between getting there quickly and not losing as many RPMs and starting with more RPMs and losing more due to the slower cue ball travel.

This wrinkle is well-modeled in Virtual Pool and is easy to see if you have "tracking" turned on. I think that something like VP is a good thing for anyone interested in billiard physics to fool around with. There are only a few techniques that it doesn't understand. The lead developer is quite a good pool player. www.celeris.com (http://www.celeris.com) <hr /></blockquote>

That all makes sense to me, Bob. I had not considered hitting higher, or the actual speed of the cueball. So, I look forward to trying that technique. Thanks so much!

Jal
02-20-2008, 08:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> Sorry I worded my last post so badly. I wasnt really trying to make a point, only to try and understand why after a certain distance, I have problems with power draw. So I want to see what happens differently on a long distance draw shot, or if any adjustments besides more cue speed might help. If the pros are doing something differently,(aside from having a better stroke and more cue speed) I want to know what that is.
Hopefully, I will benefit from bobs advice. Hitting higher on the cueball is something I had never even considered. <hr /></blockquote>There is a tip offset that yields the least loss of spin at the OB for any given cue speed. Increasing cue speed moves that offset toward the miscue limit, and beyond it at some point. With limited cue speed, hitting higher is better in some cases, ie, when the balls are far enough apart. But in doing so, you limit the amount of draw.

Calculations for a non-bouncing cueball indicate that you don't really have to have a monster stroke to bring the optimal offset down to the miscue limit. It's not located that far above it to begin with (with a "normal" stroke). In other words, increasing cue speed is the royal road to monster draw, more than anything else. Fiddling with tip offset gets you something, but you won't be in a position to teach Mike Massey a thing or two.

Jim

Bambu
02-20-2008, 08:54 PM
Thanks, Jal. I think I understand the concept now, its about balancing the rpm's and the speed of the cueball. Until now, I had thought draw had been mostly cue speed, and the low hit. The only other thing that seemed to help after 7 or 8 feet was elevating a bit, to get more back spin. But that becomes too difficult to be consistent, at least for me. I will get less draw by hitting higher, but if I get any at all...something is better than nothing. Heh, I wont be challenging mike massey any time soon, but I will take all the edges and tips I can get.

Jal
02-21-2008, 01:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> Thanks, Jal. I think I understand the concept now, its about balancing the rpm's and the speed of the cueball. Until now, I had thought draw had been mostly cue speed, and the low hit. The only other thing that seemed to help after 7 or 8 feet was elevating a bit, to get more back spin. But that becomes too difficult to be consistent, at least for me. I will get less draw by hitting higher, but if I get any at all...something is better than nothing. Heh, I wont be challenging mike massey any time soon, but I will take all the edges and tips I can get. <hr /></blockquote>Exactly. Well put, Bambu. (At least that's what the math says.)

Jim

Deeman3
02-21-2008, 08:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> ... who has a modicum of sensitivity to issues faced by those less fortunate that they are.

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I'd like to use a modicum of sensitivity and call you a twerp. But, that's just my opinion. </font color>

CarolNYC
02-21-2008, 09:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
its about balancing the rpm's and the speed of the cueball. Until now, I had thought draw had been mostly cue speed, and the low hit <hr /></blockquote>

You just have to have a nice,smooth follow through on your stroke,like,let it go,follow through, and your balls definitely coming back /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Carol

av84fun
02-21-2008, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> ... who has a modicum of sensitivity to issues faced by those less fortunate that they are.

<hr /></blockquote>

Who rattled YOUR cage?? So, you think that ridiculing physically or mentally challenged children is cool?

Why don't you take a dozen of those stupid T shirts you peddle and put them where they'll do the most good.

The one that seems to define you most has a slogan saying:
"8 Ball. Finally a sport we can play DRUNK"

Whatever Bubba.


<font color="blue"> I'd like to use a modicum of sensitivity and call you a twerp. But, that's just my opinion. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
02-21-2008, 01:20 PM
Thanks, Twerp. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bubba

av84fun
02-21-2008, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Thanks, Twerp. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bubba <hr /></blockquote>

No problem buddy. You just keep pounding down the brewskis and make a fool of yourself on the table as well as on this forum with your juvinile posts.

TWERP??? Are you still in the 7th grade or is that just the highest level you reached before dropping out??

(-:

Deeman3
02-21-2008, 02:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Thanks, Twerp. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bubba <hr /></blockquote>

No problem buddy. You just keep pounding down the brewskis and make a fool of yourself on the table as well as on this forum with your juvinile posts.

TWERP??? Are you still in the 7th grade or is that just the highest level you reached before dropping out??

(-: <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> No,

Admittedly I probably don't have your advanced education and deep understanding of the game at such a high level.

However, I have developed the uncanny ability to spot Fast Larry and his wannabe disciples pretty quickly and insult them, as I have most on here at one time or another without the security of wolfing behind a keyboard with no known origin, never having to put on the line anything other than opinions and snappy putdowns of pretended shock at casual comments by guys who are known to all and might deserve a little more respect than your Mama taught you.

I do, however, offer something you don't. An opportunity to teach an old 7th grade dropout a lesson in this game you perform at so well. See, I think your commentary I have heard puts you at a weak "C" or so on the food chain.

Now you are free to counter with a brave challenge and get out from behind that keyboard and play a little real pool. Of course, like most posers, you are also free to not show up, have an emergency come up or convienietly locate yourself just out of travel distance from harm (or profit).

If you are, indeed, God's gift to pool and the appointed PC director on the internet, then I have insulted a legend and am, indeed, sorry.

Of course, you can always make me eat my words (or word in this case). /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I don't drink. </font color>

av84fun
02-21-2008, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Thanks, Twerp. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bubba <hr /></blockquote>

No problem buddy. You just keep pounding down the brewskis and make a fool of yourself on the table as well as on this forum with your juvinile posts.

TWERP??? Are you still in the 7th grade or is that just the highest level you reached before dropping out??

(-: <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> No,

Admittedly I probably don't have your advanced education and deep understanding of the game at such a high level.

However, I have developed the uncanny ability to spot Fast Larry and his wannabe disciples pretty quickly and insult them, as I have most on here at one time or another without the security of wolfing behind a keyboard with no known origin, never having to put on the line anything other than opinions and snappy putdowns of pretended shock at casual comments by guys who are known to all and might deserve a little more respect than your Mama taught you.

I do, however, offer something you don't. An opportunity to teach an old 7th grade dropout a lesson in this game you perform at so well. See, I think your commentary I have heard puts you at a weak "C" or so on the food chain.

Now you are free to counter with a brave challenge and get out from behind that keyboard and play a little real pool. Of course, like most posers, you are also free to not show up, have an emergency come up or convienietly locate yourself just out of travel distance from harm (or profit).

If you are, indeed, God's gift to pool and the appointed PC director on the internet, then I have insulted a legend and am, indeed, sorry.

Of course, you can always make me eat my words (or word in this case). /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I don't drink. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

First, I have never suggested or implied that I am God's gift to pool or anything else. But one does not have to be God's gift to pool to know that you can't hit a 5 1/2 ft. "stun shot" with top english. All you have to be is a non-idiot which is a distinction that wolfie doesn't seem to have risen to.

And you think that ridiculing a challenged child was a "casual comment?" Fine. But the FATHER of such a child didn't think it was "casual." He thought it was one of the most disgusting posts in the HISTORY of this or any other forum!

I agree with HIM...and you don't. That makes me PROUD and should make you ASHAMED but obviously you are not because YO MOMMA...who is likely also your SISTER...clearly didn't raise you to be anything other than the T-shirt peddler that you are.

As for shying away from challenges. Yep...I'll take the rap for being a "weak C" kind of guy. So, you should have no problem with giving me the 4 out and the snaps...race to 11
for 10 bags....CASH. Bet?

And I don't mind coming down to alabama. I'm sure I can find it. I'll just GOOGLE for the 7th poorest and if you are representative...dumbest state in America.

C'mon Bubba....BE somebody...BET ME. And don't worry, afterwards I'll throw you some travel money so you can get back home to...what town....Buttwad is it???

And THANKS for ADMITTING that you posted for the purpose of insulting me. That defines you quite well.

Jim "C-" (believe it)
(-:

And NOTE TO DAVE: I FULLY expect you will chime in to chatise a poster who ADMITS to launching his tirade for the sole purpose of being insulting.

av84fun
02-22-2008, 01:50 AM
WOAH...it got awfully quiet here since I came out from behind my computer and "wolfed" at you. Actually I "woofed" at you...but I suppose wolves can woof.

And it must be "quiet" here because you said you had "heard" my comments on this forum.

Do you actually hear voices that aren't there Bubba? Possibly you should seek help for that and for your apparant inability to restrain your inner aggression.

But DO let me know when you have sold enough of your insipid little T-shirts to save up ten grand.

How about Diamonds in Chattanooga? Would that be about half way between Buttwad AL and Nashville? Davey and Billy have a safe and can be trusted to hold the $20k in CASHIERS CHECKS if you want to make sure that the money is there before you hitchhike out of Buttwad AL.

WOLF WOLF....I mean...woof woof.
(-:

Deeman3
02-22-2008, 08:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> WOAH...it got awfully quiet here since I came out from behind my computer and "wolfed" at you. Actually I "woofed" at you...but I suppose wolves can woof.

<font color="blue">Yes, it did get very quiet after your predictable re-wolf. Of course, I just got in so give me some time to consider the brave threat. Still with that great protection of anominity and the reference to a pool hall somewhere in Tennessee. Let's see, do I put together all the welfare money I have and travel, one more time, to a pool hall a few hundred miles away and wait for the ultimate wolf not to show? $20K? Why not $200K? Of course, numbers can be thrown around like manhole covers. If you are willing to play for $20K, you are indeed a champion. However, saying so and doing so are not the same. It is indeed almost funny if not sophmoric that a big time gambler, certainly out of my league, recommends dealing in cashiers checks as if they don't have cash in Tennessee.

I am, as you guess, a simple Alabama hick, by way of Tennessee. I freely admit that. I also admit I have not sold enough silly t-shirts to make any bet. But I sell shirts for charity, not for profit, some of those kids you are so politically concerned about. St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee. Ask them how much they make for them. </font color>

And it must be "quiet" here because you said you had "heard" my comments on this forum.

<font color="blue"> No, the forum is boreing and, at times, some of us like to make the middle school kids mad. </font color>

Do you actually hear voices that aren't there Bubba? Possibly you should seek help for that and for your apparant inability to restrain your inner aggression. <font color="blue"> Why?</font color>

<font color="blue"> I do hear voices, they say, this guy will frighten all the adults away with big money and bluster. See? Everyone is shaking already. </font color>

But DO let me know when you have sold enough of your insipid little T-shirts to save up ten grand.

<font color="blue"> Well, since I left Tennessee, they have certainly re-defined the act of stepping out from behind the keyboard to now mean you just remain behind that same hidden persona and say, "Hey, travel to Tennessee, bring a check and see if some stranger walks up and introduced himself for a match. Gee, a street smart guy like you might send a real player who could, with all credibility, claim to be you. Gee, even us simple Alabama folk are smarter than that.

People know who i am, a loud mouthed hillbilly who they see at tournaments, have games and meals with and, in fact, am the easiest guy in Alabama to find. </font color>

How about Diamonds in Chattanooga? Would that be about half way between Buttwad AL and Nashville? Davey and Billy have a safe and can be trusted to hold the $20k in CASHIERS CHECKS if you want to make sure that the money is there before you hitchhike out of Buttwad AL.

<font color="blue">Why would Davey and Billy need a safe for the checks? Do you often have people snatch and grab secure monetary instruments in Tennessee. My, how the world has changed.

You are a hoot, mindful and perhaps kin to the guy with a bunch of ones rolled up in a hundred.

Hey, I've got it, hustler, let's meet in France with swords and pieces of eight, maybe. Get on your bicycle and go on to school. If you had put some forethought into this, you could have made a few bucks. Just to lighten the load a bit, when's the last $20K match you made?

I never have. </font color>

WOLF WOLF....I mean...woof woof.
(-:

<hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
02-22-2008, 08:46 AM
Guys, sorry I hijacked your thread. I was just bored. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bambu
02-22-2008, 08:54 AM
C'mon, guys. You are both great posters, and from what I see, this is the best pool forum on the net. Lets do our part to help keep it that way.

Bambu
02-22-2008, 09:07 AM
Jeez, carol. Even if you can do it, dont make it sound so easy. You want me to develop an inferiorioty complex, or what? (J/K)
At 7 or 8 feet, and without using a rail to spin off of...power draw is not a simple task.

Deeman3
02-22-2008, 09:21 AM
Bambu,

Thanks. I do apoligise to you but when such a renouned player begs the 4 and out, with the breaks for such a large amount of money (well, checks /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif), I figure I owe at least a re-wolf. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for shying away from challenges. Yep...I'll take the rap for being a "weak C" kind of guy. So, you should have no problem with giving me the 4 out and the snaps...race to 11
for 10 bags....CASH. Bet?


I'll let him re-up his wolf and hopefully let this thing die a peaceful death. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

dr_dave
02-22-2008, 10:32 AM
I would like to offer my basement as a location for your $20K match. Colorado is a beautiful place to visit this time of year (snow in the mountains, warm sunshine in the hills). Send me cashiers checks ahead of time. If only one person shows up, I get to split the check with the other guy. You both also must agree to allow me to film (with my high-speed video camera) any fights which might break out.

I'm looking forward to an exciting match. I can also film the entire event with my digital video camera and offer it for free on the Internet like the IPT.

Let me know when you want to do it.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> WOAH...it got awfully quiet here since I came out from behind my computer and "wolfed" at you. Actually I "woofed" at you...but I suppose wolves can woof.

<font color="blue">Yes, it did get very quiet after your predictable re-wolf. Of course, I just got in so give me some time to consider the brave threat. Still with that great protection of anominity and the reference to a pool hall somewhere in Tennessee. Let's see, do I put together all the welfare money I have and travel, one more time, to a pool hall a few hundred miles away and wait for the ultimate wolf not to show? $20K? Why not $200K? Of course, numbers can be thrown around like manhole covers. If you are willing to play for $20K, you are indeed a champion. However, saying so and doing so are not the same. It is indeed almost funny if not sophmoric that a big time gambler, certainly out of my league, recommends dealing in cashiers checks as if they don't have cash in Tennessee.

I am, as you guess, a simple Alabama hick, by way of Tennessee. I freely admit that. I also admit I have not sold enough silly t-shirts to make any bet. But I sell shirts for charity, not for profit, some of those kids you are so politically concerned about. St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee. Ask them how much they make for them. </font color>

And it must be "quiet" here because you said you had "heard" my comments on this forum.

<font color="blue"> No, the forum is boreing and, at times, some of us like to make the middle school kids mad. </font color>

Do you actually hear voices that aren't there Bubba? Possibly you should seek help for that and for your apparant inability to restrain your inner aggression. <font color="blue"> Why?</font color>

<font color="blue"> I do hear voices, they say, this guy will frighten all the adults away with big money and bluster. See? Everyone is shaking already. </font color>

But DO let me know when you have sold enough of your insipid little T-shirts to save up ten grand.

<font color="blue"> Well, since I left Tennessee, they have certainly re-defined the act of stepping out from behind the keyboard to now mean you just remain behind that same hidden persona and say, "Hey, travel to Tennessee, bring a check and see if some stranger walks up and introduced himself for a match. Gee, a street smart guy like you might send a real player who could, with all credibility, claim to be you. Gee, even us simple Alabama folk are smarter than that.

People know who i am, a loud mouthed hillbilly who they see at tournaments, have games and meals with and, in fact, am the easiest guy in Alabama to find. </font color>

How about Diamonds in Chattanooga? Would that be about half way between Buttwad AL and Nashville? Davey and Billy have a safe and can be trusted to hold the $20k in CASHIERS CHECKS if you want to make sure that the money is there before you hitchhike out of Buttwad AL.

<font color="blue">Why would Davey and Billy need a safe for the checks? Do you often have people snatch and grab secure monetary instruments in Tennessee. My, how the world has changed.

You are a hoot, mindful and perhaps kin to the guy with a bunch of ones rolled up in a hundred.

Hey, I've got it, hustler, let's meet in France with swords and pieces of eight, maybe. Get on your bicycle and go on to school. If you had put some forethought into this, you could have made a few bucks. Just to lighten the load a bit, when's the last $20K match you made?

I never have. </font color>

WOLF WOLF....I mean...woof woof.
(-:

<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
02-22-2008, 10:46 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dave,

We love ya but an onlooker or host taking half if the other doesn't show? Sounds like a pretty good scam to me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Besides, you'd have to prove you have a safe so the checks don't get jacked. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif They call it a jelly Roll not a gravy train. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Besides, you've met me, played me. Do I look like a guy who gets scammed?

I promised I'd behave after my last post so I will. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

dr_dave
02-22-2008, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>We love ya but an onlooker or host taking half if the other doesn't show? Sounds like a pretty good scam to me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif<hr /></blockquote>It's only a scam if somebody doesn't show up.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>Besides, you'd have to prove you have a safe so the checks don't get jacked. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>
I have a large digital-combo steel safe that weighs about 350 pounds. It's from a government project I worked on many years ago. It cost more to remove and transport as it does to buy a new one, so they decided to leave it. I can provide a photo if necessary.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>Besides, you've met me, played me. Do I look like a guy who gets scammed?<hr /></blockquote>I very much enjoyed meeting you, and I don't expect you to get scammed. I would expect you to show up if the other guy's check has arrived.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>I promised I'd behave after my last post so I will. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <hr /></blockquote>Whether you behave or not, I still want to see and film the challenge match.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-22-2008, 12:10 PM
"Whether you behave or not, I still want to see and film the challenge match."
Say, are you trying to get Bubba divorced? It's bad enough when he comes home all liquored up, and has to admit losing another $20 to the local hustlers....and living paycheck to paycheck....that's another week of eating collard greens, and no ham hocks. I'm not sure he could even raise $10k down there in Bumfuk, Ala....might not be that much cash in the whole town,and the banks don't give no equity loans, on section 8 housing.
Also, with the economy in such bad shape...if he lost that factory job, on cutbacks, who's going to hire someone with a 7th grade ed? He cain't afford to take the risk...be paying off the local loan sharks fer the rest of his life...an how much would be left after the alimony payments?
Nope, you got to stop encouraging him...that's how they get him to bet $2 a game at the local bar...
besides you are the one to blame for this imbroglio.....starting a thread with such a controversial topic.
"Thriller in Colorado"....there ain't no rhyme to that, and ain'ts no alliteration, neither....how 'bout "Killer in Colorado"? ...and hopes folks realize it's jes figgeratively speakin.

dr_dave
02-22-2008, 12:18 PM
Dr. Wolfie-baby,

That's about the best post I think I've ever seen from you ... very creative and funny.

Good job,
Dave

PS: Seriously, I wasn't just joking about the match. If they are both willing and able to put up $20K (or $10K or $5K) each, I'd be happy to host the match, even without a cut. I would also be happy to make it available for viewing on YouTube. I could even offer super-slow-motion instant-replay on selected shots.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "Whether you behave or not, I still want to see and film the challenge match."
Say, are you trying to get Bubba divorced? It's bad enough when he comes home all liquored up, and has to admit losing another $20 to the local hustlers....and living paycheck to paycheck....that's another week of eating collard greens, and no ham hocks. I'm not sure he could even raise $10k down there in Bumfuk, Ala....might not be that much cash in the whole town,and the banks don't give no equity loans, on section 8 housing.
Also, with the economy in such bad shape...if he lost that factory job, on cutbacks, who's going to hire someone with a 7th grade ed? He cain't afford to take the risk...be paying off the local loan sharks fer the rest of his life...an how much would be left after the alimony payments?
Nope, you got to stop encouraging him...that's how they get him to bet $2 a game at the local bar...
besides you are the one to blame for this imbroglio.....starting a thread with such a controversial topic.
"Thriller in Colorado"....there ain't no rhyme to that, and ain'ts no alliteration, neither....how 'bout "Killer in Colorado"? ...and hopes folks realize it's jes figgeratively speakin. <hr /></blockquote>

Bambu
02-22-2008, 12:59 PM
It's all good, Dee. No apologies needed, but thanks. We all get carried away from time to time. Besides, its Daves thread, and he doesnt seem to mind.

Deeman3
02-22-2008, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Say, are you trying to get Bubba divorced?

<font color="blue"> Yeah, if I have to leave my sister over this, someone's gonna pay. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif </font color>

It's bad enough when he comes home all liquored up, and has to admit losing another $20 to the local hustlers....and living paycheck to paycheck....that's another week of eating collard greens, and no ham hocks. I'm not sure he could even raise $10k down there in Bumfuk, Ala....might not be that much cash in the whole town,and the banks don't give no equity loans, on section 8 housing.

<font color="blue"> If it were not for Katrina, there wouldn't be two folraldihyde enriched trailers to rub together in this town </font color>

Also, with the economy in such bad shape...if he lost that factory job, on cutbacks, who's going to hire someone with a 7th grade ed? He cain't afford to take the risk...be paying off the local loan sharks fer the rest of his life...an how much would be left after the alimony payments?

<font color="blue"> Hell, I'm still payin' alimony to my first wife, Bertha Sue Bob. One more row of food coupons and we are square.
</font color>
Nope, you got to stop encouraging him...that's how they get him to bet $2 a game at the local bar...
besides you are the one to blame for this imbroglio.....starting a thread with such a controversial topic.

<font color="blue"> If I could pronounce "imbroglio" I'd be incarcerated fer suspected Brokeback activities.
</font color>
"Thriller in Colorado"....there ain't no rhyme to that, and ain'ts no alliteration, neither....how 'bout "Killer in Colorado"? ...and hopes folks realize it's jes figgeratively speakin. <hr /></blockquote>

How 'bout fishin' in the Rockies?

So, officially, I gotta claim runnin's stiff scared status and duck a 4 and out 10G'er with the breaks. Anyone want to blame me for that? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Senerio:

Av84something turns out to be Corey or Earl (hey, I never thought, but it could be Earl). He has 5,000 - 2 dollar certified checks and there I am, holding a pawn ticket for granny's dialyisis machine and 867 lbs. of goverment cheese, when I stiff the 5 ball, the Colorado State Police and 21 American Indians show up, bust Dr. Dave for 9 gaming violations and arrest Wolfdancer for violating several cow related offenses. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

See what happens when you mess with those Tennessee boys? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif By the way, do you luggage check cheese or is it legit carry on?

wolfdancer
02-22-2008, 02:24 PM
"He has 5,000 - 2 dollar certified checks and there I am, holding a pawn ticket for granny's dialyisis machine and 867 lbs. of goverment cheese, when I stiff the 5 ball, the Colorado State Police and 21 American Indians show up, bust Dr. Dave for 9 gaming violations and arrest Wolfdancer for violating several cow related offenses."
I spilled my coffee reading that...just missed the keyboard..
I'm hoping this will all go away soon...I thought if I stopped posting for awhile, that it would...but two days later, it just got even worse. I'm not sure what winning or losing $10k, would prove to anyone....I once saw Keith beat Kim for $3k, a race to 10 ahead that took several hours....the next day, same 10 ahead bet, this time for $5k, Kim won in less then 1/1/2 hrs.....only thing it proved to be, they both could play, and someone was going to get on a roll and win...
4 and out...shoot, if I could borrow the $$ from ss...how could they refuse them odds...I'd take the next Greyhound bus down to Ala.
Betting on pool games though is against my religion...I'm a devout coward, when it come to putting up my own $$...and can't seem to attract any backers, once they've seen me play...

eg8r
02-22-2008, 06:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Av84something turns out to be Corey or Earl (hey, I never thought, but it could be Earl). He has 5,000 - 2 dollar certified checks and there I am, holding a pawn ticket for granny's dialyisis machine and 867 lbs. of goverment cheese, when I stiff the 5 ball, the Colorado State Police and 21 American Indians show up, bust Dr. Dave for 9 gaming violations and arrest Wolfdancer for violating several cow related offenses. <hr /></blockquote> LOL, that is hilarious. Hey wolf is that how you got the "dancer" part of your name? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

eg8r

av84fun
02-22-2008, 06:22 PM
Done deal. 30 day notice of match date. I would also nominate you as referee...for the pool match...except since you didn't chastise Deeman3 as being a non-grown up, I can only assume that you are biased.

If you say you are not, I will accept your word without question.

And possibly, being an educator, you can explain to Bubba that HIS 10 plus MY 10 = 20 and that I did not propose to play him for 20k.

You might also be able to get him to understand that the cashier's check proposal was so that our mutual presence would be assured. Also, with regard to the safe, the checks would arrive at least the day before the match and leaving $20k in Cashier's Checks laying around in pool halls is not the world's greatest idea.


Finally, I find it interesting that after accusing me of hiding behind my computer and daring me to offer up a challenge "on a real pool table", when I take him up on his suggestion, he DUCKS like a hen mallard...says he's just a po boy from bamma and can't play with the big boys.


Whatever. As far as his preposterous excuse that he's afraid I would send in a ringer, honestly, I don't think even Bubba would be SO stupid as to be duped by such a ploy and the thought never entered my mind.

But if he ever peeks over the rock he now hides behind, I too am well known in pool circles not only in middle Tennessee but to highly respected posters to this very forum who know exactly who I am.

He also asked when my last $20k match was. Again, the match proposed was $10k so PLEASE try to explain to him that for a $10k bet, both players need to bring that sum with them.

But to answer his question, I have never played a match for $10k. But he is the one that offered the opinion that I have a poor grasp of the game and I merely offered weight that ANY top player would give to a banger for ANY sum of money.

Bottom line, with reasonable advance notice for scheduling purposes, I will play him anywhere in the continental United States on the terms offered. But to avoid getting stiffed for travel expenses, the stake must be posted in advance and held by a mutually accpetable third party.

I would be more than willing to have you hold the stakes whether the match takes place in your house or not.

BET ME BUBBA!

REALLY FINALLY...I am quite sure that this post will expose Bubba as the loud mouth that he admits to be and that having dared me to come out from behind my computer, he will slink back into whatever hole he lives in down there in Buttwad, AL. so this will be my last post in reference to Bubba, except any that specifically and genuinely may be required to effectuate the match.

So, flame away Bubba and make an even BIGGER fool of yourself. You have admitted that you BUTTed in for the sole purpose of insulting me. The members of the forum will judge you as they see fit for that, and for being a loud mouth bully who runs and hides whenever someone squares off at him.

BYE BYE BUBBA!
(-:

(-:

wolfdancer
02-23-2008, 01:29 PM
I got lost somewhere on this thread...and see something about the bet is on....YOU are now getting the 4 and out, AND the breaks?
Guys got to be pretty good to give that kind of weight out...since you have to run out from the 3 ball, OR play a lock up safety.
Only bet I saw with even more generous odds was the break, 1,3,5,7,9.....and the guy getting the odds, lost

av84fun
02-23-2008, 03:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got lost somewhere on this thread...and see something about the bet is on....YOU are now getting the 4 and out, AND the breaks?
Guys got to be pretty good to give that kind of weight out...since you have to run out from the 3 ball, OR play a lock up safety.
Only bet I saw with even more generous odds was the break, 1,3,5,7,9.....and the guy getting the odds, lost </div></div>

No, the bet is not on. But that's not too much weight for a hot shot like Bubba to give to a banger. He says I don't know what I'm doing so he should drill me.

(-:

Bambu
02-23-2008, 07:35 PM
The simple theory is that the cue ball loses a fixed number of RPMs per second on its way to the object ball. If the cue ball is hopping on its way to the object ball, it will lose draw only on the landings, but the simple theory says that the total loss of draw on the way to the object ball will be about the same. It would be interesting to see the nearly instantaneous loss of spin on a landing.

The theory also says that if the cue ball is hopping with draw off an object ball, or maybe hopping from a masse shot, it will travel in straight lines between the landings as seen from above, but the path will take abrupt turns at the times of the landings. This is seen on the Austrian video (infra-red and slo-mo) mentioned before.

One consequence to practical play of the first paragraph is that to get best draw for a particular stick speed off a distant ball it is sometimes better to cue higher on the cue ball. The closer to center you hit, the faster the cue ball will be going at the start. It is a balance between getting there quickly and not losing as many RPMs and starting with more RPMs and losing more due to the slower cue ball travel.

This wrinkle is well-modeled in Virtual Pool and is easy to see if you have "tracking" turned on. I think that something like VP is a good thing for anyone interested in billiard physics to fool around with. There are only a few techniques that it doesn't understand. The lead developer is quite a good pool player. www.celeris.com (http://www.celeris.com) [/quote]

Just a quick follow up on Bob's advice on long distance draw. For me, that type of shot is usually my biggest weakness. So that little gem had an instant impact on my game. For me, its probably the best piece of advice I ever heard or read. Thanks alot, Bob!

Fenwick
02-23-2008, 08:58 PM
So I read and re read this post from beginning to end and looked at the videos yet again. Today I went to the pool hall and brought the camera. I tried to capture my draw shots looking for double hits with the 1/1,00 shutter speed. When I got home a strange man was leaving my house kissing my girlfriend goodby? He seemed quite happy! I hid behind my boat until he was gone and noticed some oil leaking from the lower unit on the main motor. What should I do? Take the boat in now or wait until spring?

wolfdancer
02-24-2008, 12:44 AM
Not sure what you mean here Ed?
I didn't write that, Dee did....but if the dancer part has anything to do with me avoiding a money match ...do you believe I have some moral obligation to accept challenges for money that I can ill afford to lose?
I don't gamble...should I quit playing because of that?
I also don't believe that superior pool skills mean anything more then that.
This part of the board has definitely gone downhill, and sorry for my part in that. Maybe Mike Page has the best idea...quit posting until.......

Shaft
02-24-2008, 07:03 AM
I appreciate the videos Dave.

I've said it before, the "no scoop jump shot" rule is just an arbitrary rule, based more on tradition than anything else. There is no particular justification for having it or not having it, imho.

If you argue that they can damage the cloth, I can argue, "so can traditional jump shots." And, BTW, there is no rule against accidentally (or intentionally) dragging (or even DRIVING) the tip into the cloth. Some people even believe that this is "good form." (I do not.)

The most persuasive argument has been that it is an intentional miscue. Your videos, now and in the past, show otherwise.

Brief experimentation with scoop shots will show you that there is a way to execute them without a miscue, without having any contact with the cloth, and with a reasonable amount of control. But, I don't expect this rule to change anytime soon.

Thanks again, Dave.

Bambu
02-24-2008, 07:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fenwick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I read and re read this post from beginning to end and looked at the videos yet again. Today I went to the pool hall and brought the camera. I tried to capture my draw shots looking for double hits with the 1/1,00 shutter speed. When I got home a strange man was leaving my house kissing my girlfriend goodby? He seemed quite happy! I hid behind my boat until he was gone and noticed some oil leaking from the lower unit on the main motor. What should I do? Take the boat in now or wait until spring? </div></div>

Sorry Fenwick, but that wasnt motor oil! Dont you know her cycle?
(j/k)

JoeW
02-24-2008, 12:16 PM
I have not read many of the angry posts so I may have missed some significant point.

A fellow was at our home for our bi-weekly round robin handicappped tournament last night. He was undefeated all night. I would peg him an A- player (but I am not very good at that sort of thing). I asked him from what distance he could execute a power draw (per Bob Jewett's drills). He thought he could execute from the last (seventh) diamond. Turns out He could execute from the sixth diamond.

He had not seen or attempted this test before so I watched him carefully to see how he executed it. He elevated the back of the cue stick and hit slightly below center -- it worked well.

When I commented that we were discussing this on the forum and that his technique was controversial, his comment was that it was not possible for him to get that much draw without an elevated cue. He has just always done it that way. He knew nothing about the ball hopping, etc and merely said that it was the only way he could get that much draw. The key, for him, was to hit CB and OB dead center or it would not work.

So this would be a comment from a excellent player who does not "study" the game. By an excellent player I mean he was undefeated in 18 games playing against APA 4,5,6, and 7 players who are well established non-sandbagging players.

wolfdancer
02-24-2008, 03:10 PM
I added my first user name to the ignore list, an easy choice...
It'll be a little more difficult to keep up with the threads, but the trade-off will be well worth it.
May I suggest that the match be held under any applicable Marquis of Queensbury rules...in addition to the BCA regs?

"No wrestling or hugging allowed.
If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so
A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
A man on one knee is considered down (unless praying?) and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
No shoes or boots with springs allowed."

Bambu
02-24-2008, 05:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not read many of the angry posts so I may have missed some significant point.

A fellow was at our home for our bi-weekly round robin handicappped tournament last night. He was undefeated all night. I would peg him an A- player (but I am not very good at that sort of thing). I asked him from what distance he could execute a power draw (per Bob Jewett's drills). He thought he could execute from the last (seventh) diamond. Turns out He could execute from the sixth diamond.

He had not seen or attempted this test before so I watched him carefully to see how he executed it. He elevated the back of the cue stick and hit slightly below center -- it worked well.

When I commented that we were discussing this on the forum and that his technique was controversial, his comment was that it was not possible for him to get that much draw without an elevated cue. He has just always done it that way. He knew nothing about the ball hopping, etc and merely said that it was the only way he could get that much draw. The key, for him, was to hit CB and OB dead center or it would not work.

So this would be a comment from a excellent player who does not "study" the game. By an excellent player I mean he was undefeated in 18 games playing against APA 4,5,6, and 7 players who are well established non-sandbagging players.
</div></div>

After trying the shot, I dont think its controversial. Did someone say that it wouldnt work? Maybe I missed that.
I always knew I had to elevate a little, but never would have thought to aim higher on the cueball. I also had not considered the speed of the cueball, only the rpm's. Anyway, thanks Joe.

JoeW
02-24-2008, 06:42 PM
I thought someone in a previous post stated that the cue had to be level for a power draw. Guess I was wrong. The elevated butt and aiming about half way below center sure worked for this fellow.

It was interesting to see that he could draw the CB back to the foot rail from six diamods away but got very little draw from seven diamonds. I think that part of the problem was the center to center hit but it also seemed that the CB had lost back spin too.

I have decided not to let my self get in situations where I would need this type of power draw -- yeah -- right.

eg8r
02-24-2008, 11:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what you mean here Ed?
I didn't write that, Dee did....but if the dancer part has anything to do with me avoiding a money match ...do you believe I have some moral obligation to accept challenges for money that I can ill afford to lose?
</div></div> It was a joke. Now, on to more serious stuff, after seeing what you post on the other side of the boards I don't believe you have any "morality" whatsoever. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Lighten up.

eg8r

CarolNYC
02-25-2008, 05:34 AM
Holy Mackeral,
What is up with this new format? I had to get my reading glasses for this,ha ha!I think this post must be the longest in history of this forum!Anyways......

Hi Dr. Joe,

(I have decided not to let my self get in situations where I would need this type of power draw -- yeah -- right. )
And THAT, my friend, is true! You would never leave yourself a long power draw-to draw is unnatural,so you always want to try to stick with the NATURAL path of the cueball and keep it simple!
On the otherhand, the opponent would leave you this if they MISSED the shot ,cause otherwise ,they'd lock you up with a safe-

When I was left this shot in a match, I didnt have the skill at that time to execute it and was like, "uh-oh"-after practicing it 100x a day, I couldnt WAIT for someone to leave me it,ha ha ha-it came again ONCE and I nailed it, cause it was a "DRILL SHOT!"

The bottom line is, you have to be able to execute ALL shots so you are ALWAYS confident with yourself and once you come upon an "uh-oh", practice it 100x so it becomes a "bring it on!"

Have a great day!
Carol

JoeW
02-25-2008, 08:47 AM
Thanks Carol,
I keep working on it. It seems to be one of those things in life where you have to be in just the right place with a powerful smooth stroke.
I have been athletic all of my life and most things come easy but this particular stroke (perhaps age has something to do with it) is getting to me. I simply can't seem to master it from the fifth diamond. Then too I have only tried it 40 - 50 times.

CarolNYC
02-25-2008, 10:12 AM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
Hang in there,Dr. Joe,

You'll get it-it took me,easily,2 months -I actually use it as a warmup shot-to loosen me up and get that "stroke on!" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Have a nice day!
Carol

dr_dave
02-25-2008, 11:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The simple theory is that the cue ball loses a fixed number of RPMs per second on its way to the object ball.</div></div>... only while the ball is in contact with the cloth (i.e., when it is not airborne).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the cue ball is hopping on its way to the object ball, it will lose draw only on the landings, but the simple theory says that the total loss of draw on the way to the object ball will be about the same.</div></div>However, whether a bounce occurs just before OB impact or not can make a big difference on the amount of spin at impact.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would be interesting to see the nearly instantaneous loss of spin on a landing.</div></div>Agreed. This is already on the list for my next video session.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One consequence to practical play of the first paragraph is that to get best draw for a particular stick speed off a distant ball it is sometimes better to cue higher on the cue ball.</div></div>To get good draw off a distant ball, you must hit the CB low and hard ... period. Now, for better draw consistency (at all distances), it is generally better to hit a little higher and harder rather than lower and softer. I think that's the most important message in Bob's advice.

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-26-2008, 02:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I added my first user name to the ignore list, an easy choice...
It'll be a little more difficult to keep up with the threads, but the trade-off will be well worth it.
May I suggest that the match be held under any applicable Marquis of Queensbury rules...in addition to the BCA regs?

"No wrestling or hugging allowed.
If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so
A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
A man on one knee is considered down (unless praying?) and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
No shoes or boots with springs allowed." </div></div>

After having suffered such substantial embarrassment, your use of the ignore feature is certainly understandable. That's what ostriches do...and little children on swing sets by putting their hands in front of their eyes when they want to hide from their mommies.
(-:

wolfdancer
02-26-2008, 11:53 AM
turns out the ignore feature is more like a junk mail filter. You can still read a post, at your own risk, by using the "toggle switch".
We may all have the right to free speech, but there's no guarantee
that anyone will be listening. And since I find your posts to be
"in bad form",I'm just choosing to formally ignore you, but I don't read all the posts here anyway.
Read into that what you will....

av84fun
02-27-2008, 02:07 AM
Well, you are free to consider my posts to be in whatever "form" you wish. But at least I know what a stun shot is and don't mind being corrected on the forum when I'm wrong.

What I think is in bad form is to do what you did. Get corrected POLITELY on the forum and then launch a SERIES of PMs to discuss the matter...thank me for the information and then go back on the forum to flame me for telling you things you already knew...when your blatantly inaccurate statements were and are still in the thread for all to read.

But oh well.

However, if you are "formally" ignoring me, why did you read my post?

You're a funny guy. Thanks for the laughs!
(-:

Bambu
02-28-2008, 01:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The simple theory is that the cue ball loses a fixed number of RPMs per second on its way to the object ball.</div></div>... only while the ball is in contact with the cloth (i.e., when it is not airborne).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the cue ball is hopping on its way to the object ball, it will lose draw only on the landings, but the simple theory says that the total loss of draw on the way to the object ball will be about the same.</div></div>However, whether a bounce occurs just before OB impact or not can make a big difference on the amount of spin at impact.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would be interesting to see the nearly instantaneous loss of spin on a landing.</div></div>Agreed. This is already on the list for my next video session.

Great, thanks Dave. Do you have slow motion any footage of a double jump, where an object ball jumps over a small portion of another ball? That would be cool to see, I love those shots.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One consequence to practical play of the first paragraph is that to get best draw for a particular stick speed off a distant ball it is sometimes better to cue higher on the cue ball.</div></div>To get good draw off a distant ball, you must hit the CB low and hard ... period. Now, for better draw consistency (at all distances), it is generally better to hit a little higher and harder rather than lower and softer. I think that's the most important message in Bob's advice.

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

I dont know, Dave. I'm not arguing, but that was not the way I took what bob said. The question pertained to long distance draw specifically, not just draw in general. As for harder and higher as opposed to lower and softer, arent they just 2 different shots....regular, and soft draw? Or do you just mean that soft draw is harder to execute, in general? If so, why would you not prefer soft draw, at least at close distances? Again I'm not arguing, just trying to understand. I seem to be more accurate at close range with soft draw(or soft anything, as opposed to hard).

dr_dave
02-28-2008, 04:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have slow motion any footage of a double jump, where an object ball jumps over a small portion of another ball? That would be cool to see, I love those shots.</div></div>See HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One consequence to practical play of the first paragraph is that to get best draw for a particular stick speed off a distant ball it is sometimes better to cue higher on the cue ball.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To get good draw off a distant ball, you must hit the CB low and hard ... period. Now, for better draw consistency (at all distances), it is generally better to hit a little higher and harder rather than lower and softer. I think that's the most important message in Bob's advice.</div></div>I dont know, Dave. I'm not arguing, but that was not the way I took what bob said. The question pertained to long distance draw specifically, not just draw in general. As for harder and higher as opposed to lower and softer, arent they just 2 different shots....regular, and soft draw? Or do you just mean that soft draw is harder to execute, in general? If so, why would you not prefer soft draw, at least at close distances?</div></div>Try drawing back precise distances (e.g., 6 inches, 1 foot) from various distances to the OB, with no cut angle (i.e. a square hit). At slower speed, it is tougher to predict how much backspin will remain after the drag action. Therefore, the amount of draw can be more difficult to control. With a faster shot, more spin is retained, and it takes less tip offset to create the same amount of spin (and draw action). I think most people have better control with draw distance at faster speeds and less tip offset, rather than slower speeds with more tip offset. I will be trying to do a thorough analysis soon to help back up these claims.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again I'm not arguing, just trying to understand. I seem to be more accurate at close range with soft draw(or soft anything, as opposed to hard). </div></div>Try some precise draw experiments at various speeds and let me know if your conclusion is the same. Now, many people don't maintain tip contact-point accuracy at higher speeds, so that could also be a factor.

Regards,
Dave

Bambu
02-29-2008, 09:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have slow motion any footage of a double jump, where an object ball jumps over a small portion of another ball? That would be cool to see, I love those shots.</div></div>See HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One consequence to practical play of the first paragraph is that to get best draw for a particular stick speed off a distant ball it is sometimes better to cue higher on the cue ball.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To get good draw off a distant ball, you must hit the CB low and hard ... period. Now, for better draw consistency (at all distances), it is generally better to hit a little higher and harder rather than lower and softer. I think that's the most important message in Bob's advice.</div></div>I dont know, Dave. I'm not arguing, but that was not the way I took what bob said. The question pertained to long distance draw specifically, not just draw in general. As for harder and higher as opposed to lower and softer, arent they just 2 different shots....regular, and soft draw? Or do you just mean that soft draw is harder to execute, in general? If so, why would you not prefer soft draw, at least at close distances?</div></div>Try drawing back precise distances (e.g., 6 inches, 1 foot) from various distances to the OB, with no cut angle (i.e. a square hit). At slower speed, it is tougher to predict how much backspin will remain after the drag action. Therefore, the amount of draw can be more difficult to control. With a faster shot, more spin is retained, and it takes less tip offset to create the same amount of spin (and draw action). I think most people have better control with draw distance at faster speeds and less tip offset, rather than slower speeds with more tip offset. I will be trying to do a thorough analysis soon to help back up these claims.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again I'm not arguing, just trying to understand. I seem to be more accurate at close range with soft draw(or soft anything, as opposed to hard). </div></div>Try some precise draw experiments at various speeds and let me know if your conclusion is the same. Now, many people don't maintain tip contact-point accuracy at higher speeds, so that could also be a factor.

Regards,
Dave </div></div>


Whoa, a double jump of an entire ball. Nice, never done that. I assume that was done with a jump cue? (Can you make a full ball jump with a house cue as well?)
I will pay more attention on my close range draw accuracy, and experiment more with the higher hit. It could just be that I have always been a level cue, low hit type of guy. Thanks, Dave. Your work is most appreciated.

dr_dave
02-29-2008, 10:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have slow motion any footage of a double jump, where an object ball jumps over a small portion of another ball? That would be cool to see, I love those shots.</div></div>See HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm).</div></div>
Whoa, a double jump of an entire ball. Nice, never done that. I assume that was done with a jump cue? (Can you make a full ball jump with a house cue as well?)</div></div>A jump cue was used on this shot, but it can just as easily be done with a regular cue. The CB is not jumping over the OB. The CB is hitting the OB about halfway up. This height is easy to achieve with a regular cue.

Regards,
Dave

Bambu
02-29-2008, 12:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have slow motion any footage of a double jump, where an object ball jumps over a small portion of another ball? That would be cool to see, I love those shots.</div></div>See HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm).</div></div>
Whoa, a double jump of an entire ball. Nice, never done that. I assume that was done with a jump cue? (Can you make a full ball jump with a house cue as well?)</div></div>A jump cue was used on this shot, but it can just as easily be done with a regular cue. The CB is not jumping over the OB. The CB is hitting the OB about halfway up. This height is easy to achieve with a regular cue.

Regards,
Dave</div></div>

C'mon, Dave. I'm not blind, just a crappy writer. I meant the height of the first object ball, getting over the entire second ball. When using a house cue, I cant get the first ball high enough to jump a second whole ball(only high enough to jump an edge of the next ball).

dr_dave
02-29-2008, 01:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have slow motion any footage of a double jump, where an object ball jumps over a small portion of another ball? That would be cool to see, I love those shots.</div></div>See HSV B.4 - object ball jump shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-4.htm).</div></div>
Whoa, a double jump of an entire ball. Nice, never done that. I assume that was done with a jump cue? (Can you make a full ball jump with a house cue as well?)</div></div>A jump cue was used on this shot, but it can just as easily be done with a regular cue. The CB is not jumping over the OB. The CB is hitting the OB about halfway up. This height is easy to achieve with a regular cue.

Regards,
Dave</div></div>

C'mon, Dave. I'm not blind, just a crappy writer. I meant the height of the first object ball, getting over the entire second ball. When using a house cue, I cant get the first ball high enough to jump a second whole ball(only high enough to jump an edge of the next ball). </div></div>My answer is the same. Most people can get the required CB height for this shot with a regular cue. The 1st OB can clear the 2nd OB with the CB only reaching about 3/4 ball height at impact. A jump cue is not required for this height (although, it does make it easier).

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
03-07-2008, 05:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">turns out the ignore feature is more like a junk mail filter. You can still read a post, at your own risk, by using the "toggle switch".
We may all have the right to free speech, but there's no guarantee
that anyone will be listening. And since I find your posts to be
"in bad form",I'm just choosing to formally ignore you, but I don't read all the posts here anyway.
Read into that what you will.... </div></div>

Are you delusional? The day after this post, you sent me a PM, (in which you stated I could take this public if I chose to) in which you said that you searched your posts re: me back to 2/17 and could find none that were remotely offensive but accused me of posting negatively about you.

Well, in addition to the above-quoted post, you also posted the following after 2/17

"I added my first user name to the ignore list, an easy choice...
It'll be a little more difficult to keep up with the threads, but the trade-off will be well worth it."

If you think the above quotes are not in the least offensive, then you certainly have a warped understanding of the definition of that word.

For whatever reason, your game is to slam me in PMs and then come on the public forum pleading innocence. Well, I don't like that game and I don't like your PMs, so would you kindly stop sending them?

I am not childish enough to put people on "ignore" as you have, either on the forum or PMs so send more if you must, but ONLY with the understanding that from this day forward, by sending them, you are giving me permission to post them puclicly.

Jim