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View Full Version : Force Follow - What is going on with this shot?

Billy_Bob
02-17-2008, 09:13 AM
I have a question about force follow shots like the shot below. What is actually going on here? To make this shot, shoot very high with a little left and tons of follow through.

With this shot, if I use less follow through, the cue ball will come off the 1, hit the rail, then head in a straight line toward the side pocket. But if I use tons of follow through, the ball will curve around to hit in the 2 ball.

Is the cue ball actually rolling forward faster than the ball is rolling with the curve shot?

What different is happening with less follow through and the ball coming straight off the rail -vs- the curve shot with more follow through?

The shot...
http://cuetable.com/P/?@1AaMb2BaMe4PWPU4kWPU1kYfX1kVls5kSjT5kJTq6kIFk2kX xS3uClH@

dr_dave
02-17-2008, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>With this shot, if I use less follow through, the cue ball will come off the 1, hit the rail, then head in a straight line toward the side pocket.<hr /></blockquote>I would bet you are not hitting the CB as high as you think. Use a numbered ball for the CB, with the number facing you, and look at where the chalk mark is after the shot.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>But if I use tons of follow through, the ball will curve around to hit in the 2 ball.<hr /></blockquote>I would bet that when you use more follow-through you are dropping your elbow and hitting the CB higher than you do when you don't drop your elbow. Again, look at the chalk mark.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-17-2008, 10:11 AM
Billy_Bob,

Another possible explanation involves the cut angle. If you cut the 1-ball too thin, the CB will retain too much speed and the the topspin won't curve the CB path as much. If you hit the 1-ball too full, you would get something like this:

HSV 4.3 - Rail dribble follow shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV4-3.htm)

Maybe when you follow through, your stroke is straighter.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> I have a question about force follow shots like the shot below. What is actually going on here? To make this shot, shoot very high with a little left and tons of follow through.

With this shot, if I use less follow through, the cue ball will come off the 1, hit the rail, then head in a straight line toward the side pocket. But if I use tons of follow through, the ball will curve around to hit in the 2 ball.

Is the cue ball actually rolling forward faster than the ball is rolling with the curve shot?

What different is happening with less follow through and the ball coming straight off the rail -vs- the curve shot with more follow through?

The shot...
http://cuetable.com/P/?@1AaMb2BaMe4PWPU4kWPU1kYfX1kVls5kSjT5kJTq6kIFk2kX xS3uClH@<hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
02-17-2008, 12:45 PM
I'd guess that speed is the key....on a very hard shot the cue ball will be skidding at impact, like a stun shot.
It's a useful shot around mid-table, where you need the cb to follow, but first "curve" around an interfering ball...
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

av84fun
02-17-2008, 04:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'd guess that speed is the key....on a very hard shot the cue ball will be skidding at impact, like a stun shot.
It's a useful shot around mid-table, where you need the cb to follow, but first "curve" around an interfering ball...
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The shot is a follow shot. About a tip of high center will cause almost immediate "true roll" (no skid) at least at moderate speeds. I don't know if skid can be induced with follow at very high speeds..Dave?

But certainly, there would be no skid at the distance referered to by the OP.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
02-17-2008, 11:13 PM
I just tested it out myself and no...skid cannot be induced with normal top spin shots...even when only 1 ball width separates CB and OB.

Regards,
Jim

Billy_Bob
02-18-2008, 05:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Another possible explanation involves the cut angle. If you cut the 1-ball too thin, the CB will retain too much speed and the the topspin won't curve the CB path as much. If you hit the 1-ball too full, you would get something like this:

HSV 4.3 - Rail dribble follow shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV4-3.htm)

Maybe when you follow through, your stroke is straighter.
<hr /></blockquote>

The above is what happens when I am stroking correctly, but hit the object ball too full. This shot (Rail dribble follow shot) is what I would call a "force follow" shot.

Basically you are getting the same action on the CB as with the shot above, but the aiming is off and you are hitting the OB too full.

So the question is: With your "Rail dribble follow shot", is the cue ball rotating faster forward than the ball is traveling on the cloth? Or is it just a fast shot which is rolling the same speed as it is traveling on the cloth?

Also... What makes using more follow get the cue ball to roll further after contacting the object ball? (Shooting higher up on the cue ball.)

Note: I can also use more follow through to get more follow (the cue ball will travel further forward after contacting the OB with a full on hit).

Billy_Bob
02-18-2008, 06:11 AM
Another thing which might be going on with these "force follow" shots is that there is so much speed, when the CB contacts the OB, the impact causes the CB to fly up off the table a bit, then this allows the continued forward rolling as seen in the "Rail dribble follow shot"???

Vapros
02-18-2008, 08:26 AM
Here's a question for some of our gurus. When a cue ball with spin (english or follow or draw) hits an object ball, or even a cushion, does the collision ever cause the axis to shift, so that the force changes direction? Seems like it should, but I don't see that it does. Thanks.

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'd guess that speed is the key<hr /></blockquote>Agreed ... both speed and cut angle affect the post-impact path of the CB.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>on a very hard shot the cue ball will be skidding at impact, like a stun shot.<hr /></blockquote>Only if the CB is struck lower (e.g., due to elbow drop before tip impact), resulting in less topspin.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>HSV 4.3 - Rail dribble follow shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV4-3.htm)
With your "Rail dribble follow shot", is the cue ball rotating faster forward than the ball is traveling on the cloth?<hr /></blockquote>No. With almost all follow shots (regardless of speed), the CB is "rolling" at object ball impact. This is certainly the case in the "rail dribble" video. For more info, see the "normal roll" link under "follow" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>Or is it just a fast shot which is rolling the same speed as it is traveling on the cloth?<hr /></blockquote>That's it. With more speed, there is correspondingly more topspin, but the CB is still rolling (provided you are hitting the CB high enough).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>Also... What makes using more follow get the cue ball to roll further after contacting the object ball? (Shooting higher up on the cue ball.)<hr /></blockquote>The amount of follow action depends on how little CB speed remains in relation to the amount of topspin retained. With a fast follow shot, the CB has lots of topsin (as the ball rolls at a higher speed). With a smaller cut angle, most of the CB's speed is lost, but almost all of the topspin is retained after OB impact. That's what produces the follow "action" ... lot's of spin, not much speed. That's why both speed and cut angle are important in this type of shot.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>Note: I can also use more follow through to get more follow (the cue ball will travel further forward after contacting the OB with a full on hit).<hr /></blockquote>The only explanation I can think of here is: when you follow through, you might be hitting the CB harder and higher (e.g., with elbow drop). Have you checked the chalk marks?

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> Here's a question for some of our gurus. When a cue ball with spin (english or follow or draw) hits an object ball, or even a cushion, does the collision ever cause the axis to shift, so that the force changes direction? Seems like it should, but I don't see that it does. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>With the rail dribble shot, the CB's spin is changed very little; however, spin changes do occur with collisions (especially with a cushion). You can see lots of examples here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/index.html) (e.g., see HSV A.31 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-31.htm)). Kicked and bank balls can change direction and swerve quite a bit due to transferred spin and collision-induced spin changes.

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-18-2008, 12:55 PM
dr_Dave "No. With almost all follow shots (regardless of speed), the CB is "rolling" at object ball impact."

What would be the rare example of a follow shot where the CB is not rolling?

dr_Dave
"Only if the CB is struck lower (e.g., due to elbow drop before tip impact), resulting in less topspin."

1. Struck lower that what? I just shot a HARD shot with the OB only a ball width in front of the CB and with no more than 1/4 tip of high and the CB rolled 4 diamonds so it clearly didn't skid...at least not for more than 2.25 inches.

2. An elbow drop before CB impact will cause the tip to RISE not descend...correct?

Regards,
Jim

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 02:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>What would be the rare example of a follow shot where the CB is not rolling?<hr /></blockquote>If the CB is hit hard and/or the distance to the OB is short, and the CB ball is not struck at the natural roll point (see the info and links in the message under "follow - normal roll" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html)), then the CB can be sliding or over-rotating (and not "rolling").

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>dr_Dave
"Only if the CB is struck lower, [edited] resulting in less topspin."

1. Struck lower that what?<hr /></blockquote>BillyBob was comparing two shots, one with good follow action and one without. I was just suggesting possible reasons for the difference. If the CB is not hit in the same place for both shots, there will be a difference in the "follow action" in his example.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>2. An elbow drop before CB impact will cause the tip to RISE not descend...correct?<hr /></blockquote>Yes. My bad. Thank you for correcting me. An elbow drop before tip contact will result in more follow (as long as there is no miscue over the top).

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-18-2008, 10:07 PM
dr_dave
Quote av84fun:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What would be the rare example of a follow shot where the CB is not rolling?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the CB is hit hard and/or the distance to the OB is short, and the CB ball is not struck at the natural roll point (see the info and links in the message under "follow - normal roll" here), then the CB can be sliding or over-rotating (and not "rolling").

---------------------------------------------------------

My understanding is that the "natural roll point is about 1 tip of high. But whatever, I just shot 10 shots with the CB/OB on ball width apart. In each case, I shot VERY hard and made every effort NOT to contact the CB one tip above center.

On no occasion did the CB do anything other than roll significantly forward proving the CB was not skidding at OB contact.

If you have any super slow mo video showing that skid does occur(not top spin which I agree can be induced) then seeing, of course, would be believing. But absent that video, I will remain convinced that CBs struck above center do not skid.

I know that you and I are in GENERAL agreement on that subject. You just sparked my curiosity by saying that such skid would infreqently occur.

Nevertheless, wolfdancer holds to the view that the CB could be skidding over a distance of several FEET as in the OP's diagramed shot. Do you agree that skid over that distance with top english of ANY amount would be impossible?

Thanks!

Jim

dr_dave
02-18-2008, 11:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>What would be the rare example of a follow shot where the CB is not rolling?<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If the CB is hit hard and/or the distance to the OB is short, and the CB ball is not struck at the natural roll point (see the info and links in the message under "follow - normal roll" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html)), then the CB can be sliding or over-rotating (and not "rolling").<hr /></blockquote>My understanding is that the "natural roll point is about 1 tip of high.<hr /></blockquote>Depending upon how you define "1 tip" and depending upon the size and and shape of your tip (see my January '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/jan08.pdf) for more info), that's probably about right.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Wolfdancer holds to the view that the CB could be skidding over a distance of several FEET as in the OP's diagramed shot. Do you agree that skid over that distance with top english of ANY amount would be impossible?<hr /></blockquote>I don't think long-distance skid is likely with typical conditions for a typical follow shot (which is hit near the normal roll point), but "impossible" is a strong word. At high speeds and slick conditions, the CB can skid a large distance before complete roll develops (unless the CB is hit exactly at the normal roll point, in which case it rolls immediately, regardless of the speed).

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-18-2008, 11:51 PM
this wolf guy must be one dumb sob.That's probably why they don't let him post up here too often. I think he hit the skids himself, a few years back...

av84fun
02-19-2008, 01:39 AM
Self-correction. Above I wrote:
"On no occasion did the CB do anything other than roll significantly forward proving the CB was not skidding at OB contact."

Of course, I meant that it was not "skidding without rotating" which would cause a stop shot to occur.

Obviously, a skidding or sliding ball can have either reverse spin or "excess" top spin (force follow) in which case no stop on a full hit or tangent line travel on a cut shot will occur.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
02-19-2008, 01:52 AM
dr_dave

Quote av84fun:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolfdancer holds to the view that the CB could be skidding over a distance of several FEET as in the OP's diagramed shot. Do you agree that skid over that distance with top english of ANY amount would be impossible?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think long-distance skid is likely with typical conditions for a typical follow shot (which is hit near the normal roll point), but "impossible" is a strong word. At high speeds and slick conditions, the CB can skid a large distance before complete roll develops (unless the CB is hit exactly at the normal roll point, in which case it rolls immediately, regardless of the speed).

Regards,
Dave

OK, but I was referring to a specific distance i.e. the OP's diagramed shot in which the CB/OB separation is about 5 1/2 feet.

Given realistic conditions, I don't think that a rate of forward rotation in excess of that explained by normal roll (i.e. "top spin" or "force follow") can be sustained for anywhere near 5 1/2 feet by anyone other than those with near-superhuman strokes....like Nevel or Massey.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
02-19-2008, 01:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> this wolf guy must be one dumb sob.That's probably why they don't let him post up here too often. I think he hit the skids himself, a few years back... <hr /></blockquote>

Well, being wrong occasionally doesn't make one either dumb or a sob. It has even happened to me once or twice!

And you have over 6,000 posts here so you don't seem to be under any restraints along those lines!
(-:
Jim

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 09:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Given realistic conditions, I don't think that a rate of forward rotation in excess of that explained by normal roll (i.e. "top spin" or "force follow") can be sustained for anywhere near 5 1/2 feet by anyone other than those with near-superhuman strokes....like Nevel or Massey.<hr /></blockquote>It is difficult to get much "over-rotation" without risking miscue. However, it is certainly possible to have skidding, with topspin less than the normal roll amount, over large distances. An important factor to consider is that for a firm follow shot (with under-rotation, normal roll, or over-rotation), the CB is airborne quite a bit (due to slight cue elevation and squirt down into the table, causing a slight jump), especially in the first few feet (e.g., see HSV A.124 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-124.htm)).

Regards,
Dave

av84fun
02-19-2008, 10:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Given realistic conditions, I don't think that a rate of forward rotation in excess of that explained by normal roll (i.e. "top spin" or "force follow") can be sustained for anywhere near 5 1/2 feet by anyone other than those with near-superhuman strokes....like Nevel or Massey.<hr /></blockquote>It is difficult to get much "over-rotation" without risking miscue. However, it is certainly possible to have skidding, with topspin less than the normal roll amount, over large distances. An important factor to consider is that for a firm follow shot (with under-rotation, normal roll, or over-rotation), the CB is airborne quite a bit (due to slight cue elevation and squirt down into the table, causing a slight jump), especially in the first few feet (e.g., see HSV A.124 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-124.htm)).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Right re: the relative rarity of "overspin." As you know, what many think is overspin or force follow (because the CB accelerates and "scoots forward" after OB impact) is nothing more than natural forward roll resuming after CB slowdown at OB impact.

And yes, I realize that there is some cb hop even with high cueing due to downward "squirt." But it is fun to watch it in slo mo. Thanks for the link and your always informative posts!

Regards,
Jim

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>As you know, what many think is overspin or force follow (because the CB accelerates and "scoots forward" after OB impact) is nothing more than natural forward roll resuming after CB slowdown at OB impact.<hr /></blockquote>Good point. I think there are lots of misconceptions out there about "force follow."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>And yes, I realize that there is some cb hop even with high cueing due to downward "squirt." But it is fun to watch it in slo mo. Thanks for the link and your always informative posts!<hr /></blockquote>You're welcome.

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
02-19-2008, 11:54 AM
With the Jim Rempe training cue ball, there are numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) of follow, draw, and english. So far as the follow goes, does it matter if I use 1 for follow, or 2, or 3?

Or would 1 in "theory" work for all shots and get just as much follow for all shots?

Or if hitting at 5 gets more follow than hitting at 1, why would this be? What different is happening with the cue ball?

I suppose to test this, you would need to have a robot to assure you are hitting the cue ball at the same exact speed with a 1 as opposed to another amount of follow.

Note there is a drill called the "wagon wheel". What you do is place the object ball dead center on the table, then set up the cue ball about a diamond away from the object ball for a slight cut into the side pocket. (Straight in to the side pocket would have both the cue ball and object ball in line with the side pockets, for this shot, move the cue ball a bit toward a corner pocket (couple of inches) to make it a slight cut shot into the side.)

Then with this "wagon wheel drill" and using the training ball as the cue ball, you shoot higher or lower on the cue ball and see where the cue ball goes after the shot (no english). So 5 draw, then 4 draw, 3, 2, 1, center, then 1 follow, 2 follow, 3, 4, 5.

What happens is that the cue ball will come off the shot and go all sorts of different directions after the hit depending on how high or low you hit the cue ball. Looks like the spokes on a wagon wheel!

So what different is happening when hitting 1 follow -vs- 2 follow, 3, etc?

dr_dave
02-19-2008, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> With the Jim Rempe training cue ball, there are numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) of follow, draw, and english. So far as the follow goes, does it matter if I use 1 for follow, or 2, or 3?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, depending on the shot speed and distance to the OB. At low speeds and large distances from the OB, it doesn't matter how high or how low you hit the CB, it will be rolling when it hits the OB (due to drag action). However, for fast shots close to the OB, the tip contact height makes a big difference in how much the CB curves after OB impact. As I pointed out before, the other important thing with follow shots is how much spin vs. speed the CB has after OB contact. A fast follow shot will create more follow action when the OB is hit more fully. Most of the speed is lost, but most of the topspin is retained, and there is more topspin with more initial speed and tip offset.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>Then with this "wagon wheel drill" and using the training ball as the cue ball, you shoot higher or lower on the cue ball and see where the cue ball goes after the shot (no english). So 5 draw, then 4 draw, 3, 2, 1, center, then 1 follow, 2 follow, 3, 4, 5.

What happens is that the cue ball will come off the shot and go all sorts of different directions after the hit depending on how high or low you hit the cue ball. Looks like the spokes on a wagon wheel!<hr /></blockquote>I have a simple and similar demo in NV 4.25 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV4-25.htm). The actual cut angle, how much you cheat the pocket, and speed are also important factors. I have an English drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/English_drill.pdf) in the instructor and student resources section of my website (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html) that is helpful in learning to experimenting with all the factors.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-19-2008, 01:26 PM
Billy, do you have Ted Brown's "Wagon Wheel" book? I had it once,and lost it, and haven't seen a copy for years now.
When I first got serious about pool, I'd make it a point to sit in the stands, near Ted, and listen in on his running commentary about the game. I believe those were my first "lessons" on position play. Nice man, and very knowledgeable.

Billy_Bob
02-20-2008, 08:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Billy, do you have Ted Brown's "Wagon Wheel" book? <hr /></blockquote>

No. I was taught the wagon wheel drill by another player (A very good player I might add)...

Billy_Bob
02-20-2008, 10:04 AM
Here is another interesting follow shot which I find works only with a medium stroke and tons of follow-through. It is the hook shot. A slight left cut into the side pocket with high center follow.

For me on this shot, too fast does not work, and slower without following through does not work. Only medium speed and tons of follow-through works. Note cue ball placement is critical. I have this drawn for a 7 ft. table. Needs to be a slight left cut into side pocket and aim slightly to right of OB.

Hook shot...
http://CueTable.com/P/?@2CanT2PBqi2WanT6WcKk6Wanr6WYAn6WXCe3WXQH2kBqi2kb EW2kbEW2uDCA@

dr_dave
02-20-2008, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>For me on this shot, too fast does not work, and slower without following through does not work. Only medium speed and tons of follow-through works.<hr /></blockquote>All the cue ball cares about is tip contact point, cue speed, and cue elevation at the moment of impact. Follow-through is just a symptom of your stroke and has no direct affect on the action of the shot. Now, when you follow through, maybe you are doing something different with your stroke to get a different cue speed or a different tip contact point, or maybe your stroke is straighter. You might want to videotape your stroke changes and look at the chalk mark on the CB. Use that Jim Rempe ball you have. If two shots have the same cue speed and tip contact point, but have different amounts of follow through, the action of the shots should still be the same. If you are getting different action, you are not hitting the CB with the same speed, tip-contact point, or aiming line.

The chalk mark doesn't lie,
Dave

av84fun
02-20-2008, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Here is another interesting follow shot which I find works only with a medium stroke and tons of follow-through. It is the hook shot. A slight left cut into the side pocket with high center follow.

For me on this shot, too fast does not work, and slower without following through does not work. Only medium speed and tons of follow-through works. Note cue ball placement is critical. I have this drawn for a 7 ft. table. Needs to be a slight left cut into side pocket and aim slightly to right of OB.

Hook shot...
http://CueTable.com/P/?@2CanT2PBqi2WanT6WcKk6Wanr6WYAn6WXCe3WXQH2kBqi2kb EW2kbEW2uDCA@ <hr /></blockquote>

That's a fun shot to shoot and see. Another cool variation...if the corner pockets are wider than 4.5, you place two OBs in the jaws and tell the spectator that you will pocket BOTH balls with one shot without caroming the CB from one to the other.

You shoot with very high entlish and the CB will srike OB #1, rebound from the cushion and then "masse" back forward to pocket #2.

Gotta get your speed right but when you do, it's fun to see.

(-:
Jim

wolfdancer
02-20-2008, 11:54 AM
That shot is on Buddy Hall's video on position play...good shot to know, as you say. Reminds me that I should dig out some of my old Buddy/Grady Tapes,.. haven't viewed them in awhile
If I knew how to use the cue table app...AND paste it in here, I might have saved myself from a recent brouhaha...but it's all in a days work here.
I haven't been over to Bill's in a while, for a butt whipping on the Snooker table....with my sense of direction,I need a GPS unit and a guide dog to find his place. Have you made it up there recently?

Rod
02-21-2008, 01:45 AM
BB, this shot like the first one shown is a matter of how full you hit the O/B. This one the O/B can easily be 6" away from the side and still get it to hook around and follow down into the corner. I shoot it with top left.

I've had whitey hit the rail twice before the side and still follow into the corner. Variations of this shot is very good to know. On rare occasions it comes up and there is no other way to go down table. Of course then its a matter of how much top/left and power needed. Really the hook effect can be done at slower speeds to full power.

You don't need tons of follow through. What ever speed your shooting at just let the cue naturally go through the c/b. I know many players do not naturally let the cue go through. So they think they need to "force" some kind of long follow through to get the same effect.

A forced follow through (for lack of better words) is a phony finish. A good follow through is natural, nice and smooth all the way through.

Rod

Billy_Bob
02-21-2008, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>...I haven't been over to Bill's in a while, for a butt whipping on the Snooker table....with my sense of direction,I need a GPS unit and a guide dog to find his place. Have you made it up there recently? <hr /></blockquote>

With these high gasoline prices, I'm sticking close to home pretty much...

Billy_Bob
02-21-2008, 10:23 AM
So far as my following-through more and getting more follow, I'll videotape myself and see what is going on if possible. I only have a regular VCR, but I can see quite a bit when playing back in slow motion.

The shots I will be interested in are...

-The force follow curving cue ball shot at the beginning of this topic. Find out what is different with a shot where the cue ball comes off the rail straight and toward the side pocket -vs- a shot where the cue ball curves.

-The hook shot. Find out what different is happening when the ball comes off the rail at a natural angle and no curve -vs- curve and stops near side pocket -vs- curves and continues all the way down to near the corner pocket.

-Regular follow shots (cue ball 1 diamond from OB). Find out what different is happening when I use more follow-through to get more follow action on the cue ball (CB rolls further after contacting OB when I use more follow-through).

-Break follow shot. I only shoot 1 tip above center for a break follow shot, yet get a lot of follow on the cue ball. See what is happening with this. (If I shoot higher than 1 tip when breaking, I will miscue.)

So I will try to see what is going on with the tip contacting the cue ball with these shots (my stroke), and also see what is going on when the CB contacts the OB with these shots. (What is the CB doing just before it hits the OB?)

av84fun
02-21-2008, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> So far as my following-through more and getting more follow, I'll videotape myself and see what is going on if possible. I only have a regular VCR, but I can see quite a bit when playing back in slow motion.

The shots I will be interested in are...

-The force follow curving cue ball shot at the beginning of this topic. Find out what is different with a shot where the cue ball comes off the rail straight and toward the side pocket -vs- a shot where the cue ball curves.

-The hook shot. Find out what different is happening when the ball comes off the rail at a natural angle and no curve -vs- curve and stops near side pocket -vs- curves and continues all the way down to near the corner pocket.

-Regular follow shots (cue ball 1 diamond from OB). Find out what different is happening when I use more follow-through to get more follow action on the cue ball (CB rolls further after contacting OB when I use more follow-through).

-Break follow shot. I only shoot 1 tip above center for a break follow shot, yet get a lot of follow on the cue ball. See what is happening with this. (If I shoot higher than 1 tip when breaking, I will miscue.)

So I will try to see what is going on with the tip contacting the cue ball with these shots (my stroke), and also see what is going on when the CB contacts the OB with these shots. (What is the CB doing just before it hits the OB?)
<hr /></blockquote>
It is well known that the tip remains on the CB for about one millisecond. Therefore, the length of the follow through IN AND OF ITSELF...is immaterial since a forward moving cue that is not in contact with the CB cannot possibly influence the CB's behavior.

However, the speed of the cue AT IMPACT obviouls is VERY meaningful.

Since an object in motion tends to stay in motion until encountering some form of resistence. So, if you try to hit as hard as you can BUT...attempt to stop the cue's forward motion in inch forward of the CB contact point, I guarantee you that you have forced the cue to begin decelerating before impact.

Place two coins on either side of the center of the CB and hit a hard shot while preventing the cue tip from passing the line between the two coins. Ain't gonna happen unless you intentionally slow the stroke down on the way to the CB.

What the long follow through indicates is that you have have not imposed any restrictive force on the forward motion of the cue and therefore, have achieved the highest forward speed possible given the acceleration force you applied.

A long follow through also indicates that you allowed your elbow to drop. If that drop began before CB impact, then the tip raised somewhat and you likely struck the CB somewhat higher than to intended, thereby causings somewhat more topspin than would have been the case given lower tip to CB contact.

Regards,
Jim

Bob_Jewett
02-21-2008, 01:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> ... What different is happening with less follow through and the ball coming straight off the rail -vs- the curve shot with more follow through? ... <hr /></blockquote>
Billy Bob, I urge you to start studying carom billiards. These sorts of shots are absolutely standard at the artistic version of that game. Bob Byrne does a pretty good job of explaining the repeated rail shots in his books. Also, check out Semih Sayginer on youtube.

Personally, I learned these shots from Mosconi's "Winning Pocket Billiards" my first few months of play. A main point I learned is that from a distance, the table will put plenty of follow on the ball for you, and it is sufficient to hit the ball just a little above center to get a hug-the-rail shot. Of course if you are playing on new, slippery cloth, you will need to hit the ball higher.

While for your particular fundamentals a long follow-through seems to be required to get the action, I suspect that is more due to a flaw in your technique. I'm betting that Allen Hopkins has no trouble with the shot without much follow-through. Of course I'm not advocating that everyone use a punch stroke, but I am saying that you need to be careful about what is absolutely required for a shot and what is conducive to good form.