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Bambu
02-29-2008, 10:21 AM
In reading through Dr. Daves work, I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed.
At first glance that concept looked strange to me, because I didnt think stroking with an "angled" cue could possibly be a good thing. At that point I thought to myself, how could this be....isnt a straight stroke better? As I actually tried a few different shots though, I realized that pivoting was something I have always done, but never noticed.
So I take the topic to the local pool gods in my area, and I get a split decision. But neither can explain why their way is better, only that it is the way they shoot. Even though I do it, pivoting just seems wrong on the surface, because straighter strokes should be better than angled.
I am interested in knowing if my non pivoting friend is just an exception, or if moving your bridge hand instead of pivoting is also a choice for others, and why. Can a case be made for both sides?

dr_dave
02-29-2008, 10:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In reading through Dr. Daves work, I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed.
At first glance that concept looked strange to me, because I didnt think stroking with an "angled" cue could possibly be a good thing. At that point I thought to myself, how could this be....isnt a straight stroke better? As I actually tried a few different shots though, I realized that pivoting was something I have always done, but never noticed.
So I take the topic to the local pool gods in my area, and I get a split decision. But neither can explain why their way is better, only that it is the way they shoot. Even though I do it, pivoting just seems wrong on the surface, because straighter strokes should be better than angled.
I am interested in knowing if my non pivoting friend is just an exception, or if moving your bridge hand instead of pivoting is also a choice for others, and why. Can a case be made for both sides? </div></div>I make cases both for and against aim-and-pivot methods in my November '07 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/nov07.pdf). One problem is that aim-and-pivot methods don't account for changes is swerve due to shot speed, cue elevation, shot distance, and table conditions. See my March '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/march08.pdf) for more information.

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
02-29-2008, 12:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed.
... </div></div>
This idea first appeared in print more than 150 years ago. It was only within the last ten years or so (so far as I know), that there has been any good explanation of the physical reason that "aim-and-pivot" works. It's also called backhand english.

Most of the users and fans of backhand english seem to be unaware of the problems with it. I think that lack of in-depth knowledge can lead to problems when using it.

dr_dave
02-29-2008, 02:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... It was only within the last ten years or so (so far as I know), that there has been any good explanation of the physical reason that "aim-and-pivot" works</div></div>... and when and why it doesn't work.

Dave

cushioncrawler
02-29-2008, 06:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In reading through Dr. Daves work, I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed. At first glance that concept looked strange to me, because I didnt think stroking with an "angled" cue could possibly be a good thing. At that point I thought to myself, how could this be....isnt a straight stroke better? As I actually tried a few different shots though, I realized that pivoting was something I have always done, but never noticed. So I take the topic to the local pool gods in my area, and I get a split decision. But neither can explain why their way is better, only that it is the way they shoot. Even though I do it, pivoting just seems wrong on the surface, because straighter strokes should be better than angled. I am interested in knowing if my non pivoting friend is just an exception, or if moving your bridge hand instead of pivoting is also a choice for others, and why. Can a case be made for both sides?</div></div>Bambu -- FrontHandPivot and BackHandPivot iz something i have been experimenting with for over 1yr, since hearing about it from Dr Dave and others, notably Colin Colenso i think. And now i uze fhp and/or bhp for allmost every shot -- English billiards here (2-1/16" balls) on a 12' table.

But i dont see the need to play bhp with an angled stroke. Instead of mooving just the backhand across, why dont u pivot your whole body (and shoes if u like), keeping just the bridge fixed (the pivot axis).

Alternatively, if u insist on mooving just the backhand across, u can "half" get rid of the angle problem if u then spin your body around a bit, ie uzing the backbone az the axis.


And, anyhow, to an extent, this angled-stroke bizness iz a circular arguement. I mean, if u have chosen a bridge-length (pivot-length) to suite your cue pivot-length (or vice-versa), and, if your pivot-length test woz dunn with an angled-stroke (ie mooving the back-hand only), then the angle-stroke will be ok for u -- See????? The only difference might be (will be) that u might (will) need a different pivot-length for right-hand-english and left-hand-english.

In theory there shoodnt be a need for such a difference (ie different pivot-length for left-english and right-english) if u elect to uze a whole-body-bhp, but i suspekt that everyone will need a different pivot-length here nonetheless (koz of lots of reasons).

Me, myself, i uze a little bit of fhp plus a little bit of bhp, ie both, for nearly every shot -- but not for helping me with aiming with sidespin (english) -- no, i uze fhp and bhp to help me to hit the center of the qball, and to hit the qball dead straight (the main shot needed 90% of the time). Koz, i am left-eye-dominant, and i naturally unintentionally hit the qball 1mm to 2mm left of center, and unintentionally aim about 1/4 ball left of center on the OB. Fhp plus bhp help to amend this problem -- hencely i get the feeling that i am hitting right-of-center on the qball, and right-of "the line".

When making the above fhp adjustment i never spin my body around (ie around my backbone) to help "get rid of the angle" (az allready mentioned), but when adding the bhp adjustment i do pivot my whole body (ie around my bridge) to help "get rid of the angle". So, shood i be classed az voting with the "oppozition", or against??

In fact, when wanting lots of sidespin, i prefer to uze feel or fhp or bhp (for aim) depending on the range and force and type of shot (eg skrewz). Here, again, i never spin my body around my backbone to get rid of fhp-angle, but do pivot my whole body for bhp (to ensure i dont get such angle). madMac.

Bambu
03-01-2008, 07:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In reading through Dr. Daves work, I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed.
At first glance that concept looked strange to me, because I didnt think stroking with an "angled" cue could possibly be a good thing. At that point I thought to myself, how could this be....isnt a straight stroke better? As I actually tried a few different shots though, I realized that pivoting was something I have always done, but never noticed.
So I take the topic to the local pool gods in my area, and I get a split decision. But neither can explain why their way is better, only that it is the way they shoot. Even though I do it, pivoting just seems wrong on the surface, because straighter strokes should be better than angled.
I am interested in knowing if my non pivoting friend is just an exception, or if moving your bridge hand instead of pivoting is also a choice for others, and why. Can a case be made for both sides? </div></div>I make cases both for and against aim-and-pivot methods in my November '07 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/nov07.pdf). One problem is that aim-and-pivot methods don't account for changes is swerve due to shot speed, cue elevation, shot distance, and table conditions. See my March '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/march08.pdf) for more information.

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

Very interesting how when using a cue appropriate bridge length, the pivot angle cancels out the squirt angle. At least this explains the why behind the reason backhand english can work. Great article, thanks so much Dave.

Bambu
03-01-2008, 07:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed.
... </div></div>
This idea first appeared in print more than 150 years ago. It was only within the last ten years or so (so far as I know), that there has been any good explanation of the physical reason that "aim-and-pivot" works. It's also called backhand english.

Most of the users and fans of backhand english seem to be unaware of the problems with it. I think that lack of in-depth knowledge can lead to problems when using it.</div></div>

I have seen references to back hand english before, but never did grasp the meaning. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Bob.

1Time
03-01-2008, 08:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most of the users and fans of backhand english seem to be unaware of the problems with it. I think that lack of in-depth knowledge can lead to problems when using it. </div></div>

People don't need to read or understand a single word or concept about back hand English to benefit from using it. And it's easy to learn and use effectively. Simply watch someone use it or have someone show you, and then practice for a while. A little trial and error will teach you all you need to know.

Bambu
03-01-2008, 04:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In reading through Dr. Daves work, I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed. At first glance that concept looked strange to me, because I didnt think stroking with an "angled" cue could possibly be a good thing. At that point I thought to myself, how could this be....isnt a straight stroke better? As I actually tried a few different shots though, I realized that pivoting was something I have always done, but never noticed. So I take the topic to the local pool gods in my area, and I get a split decision. But neither can explain why their way is better, only that it is the way they shoot. Even though I do it, pivoting just seems wrong on the surface, because straighter strokes should be better than angled. I am interested in knowing if my non pivoting friend is just an exception, or if moving your bridge hand instead of pivoting is also a choice for others, and why. Can a case be made for both sides?</div></div>Bambu -- FrontHandPivot and BackHandPivot iz something i have been experimenting with for over 1yr, since hearing about it from Dr Dave and others, notably Colin Colenso i think. And now i uze fhp and/or bhp for allmost every shot -- English billiards here (2-1/16" balls) on a 12' table.

But i dont see the need to play bhp with an angled stroke. Instead of mooving just the backhand across, why dont u pivot your whole body (and shoes if u like), keeping just the bridge fixed (the pivot axis).

Alternatively, if u insist on mooving just the backhand across, u can "half" get rid of the angle problem if u then spin your body around a bit, ie uzing the backbone az the axis.


And, anyhow, to an extent, this angled-stroke bizness iz a circular arguement. I mean, if u have chosen a bridge-length (pivot-length) to suite your cue pivot-length (or vice-versa), and, if your pivot-length test woz dunn with an angled-stroke (ie mooving the back-hand only), then the angle-stroke will be ok for u -- See????? The only difference might be (will be) that u might (will) need a different pivot-length for right-hand-english and left-hand-english.

In theory there shoodnt be a need for such a difference (ie different pivot-length for left-english and right-english) if u elect to uze a whole-body-bhp, but i suspekt that everyone will need a different pivot-length here nonetheless (koz of lots of reasons).

Me, myself, i uze a little bit of fhp plus a little bit of bhp, ie both, for nearly every shot -- but not for helping me with aiming with sidespin (english) -- no, i uze fhp and bhp to help me to hit the center of the qball, and to hit the qball dead straight (the main shot needed 90% of the time). Koz, i am left-eye-dominant, and i naturally unintentionally hit the qball 1mm to 2mm left of center, and unintentionally aim about 1/4 ball left of center on the OB. Fhp plus bhp help to amend this problem -- hencely i get the feeling that i am hitting right-of-center on the qball, and right-of "the line".

When making the above fhp adjustment i never spin my body around (ie around my backbone) to help "get rid of the angle" (az allready mentioned), but when adding the bhp adjustment i do pivot my whole body (ie around my bridge) to help "get rid of the angle". So, shood i be classed az voting with the "oppozition", or against??

In fact, when wanting lots of sidespin, i prefer to uze feel or fhp or bhp (for aim) depending on the range and force and type of shot (eg skrewz). Here, again, i never spin my body around my backbone to get rid of fhp-angle, but do pivot my whole body for bhp (to ensure i dont get such angle). madMac.</div></div>

Thanks, Mac. I suppose you are a fan of both of these shooting methods, and then some. This is looking like another case of different strokes for different folks. It is interesting how we all have our own ways of compensating and adjusting for one thing or another. Something I am not sure of though, why would you need a different pivot-length for right-hand-english and left-hand-english?

cushioncrawler
03-01-2008, 05:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, Mac. I suppose you are a fan of both of these shooting methods, and then some. This is looking like another case of different strokes for different folks. It is interesting how we all have our own ways of compensating and adjusting for one thing or another. Something I am not sure of though, why would you need a different pivot-length for right-hand-english and left-hand-english?</div></div>I think that eye dominance etc makes a difference to perceived objektball contakt and qtip contakt. Secondly i think that few of us stroke straight. Most of us tend to help the english, i know that i am better at helping left hand english than right. Recently i spent some time at a snooker tournament and a billiardz tournament, and i kept a close eye on the player's butts. Only one player stroked throo straight on every shot, ie for left-side, right-side, skrew etc. Everyone else hoiked the qbutt left or right a bit, or a lot.

Anyhow, if u do some pivot tests (ie with straight-in-shots), iz your pivot length etc different for left and right english???? I suppoze that there might be at least one separation tween qball and Oball where the PL iz the same, but this happy coincidence will change at shorter and longer range and on a new bedcloth. madMac.

dr_dave
03-02-2008, 11:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People don't need to read or understand a single word or concept about back hand English to benefit from using it.</div></div>Agreed, although good illustrations (e.g., the 4 diagrams in my November '07 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/nov07.pdf)) can make it a lot easier to learn.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And it's easy to learn and use effectively. Simply watch someone use it or have someone show you, and then practice for a while. A little trial and error will teach you all you need to know.</div></div>What do you have against reading and instruction? "Watching" and "trial and error" can be effective, but not always very efficient.

Regards,
Dave

1Time
03-02-2008, 10:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People don't need to read or understand a single word or concept about back hand English to benefit from using it.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed, although good illustrations (e.g., the 4 diagrams in my November '07 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/nov07.pdf)) can make it a lot easier to learn.</div></div>
I could sooner see at least 95% of people preferring to learn backhand English through observation and/or demonstration. Put it out there on video and even more will learn it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And it's easy to learn and use effectively. Simply watch someone use it or have someone show you, and then practice for a while. A little trial and error will teach you all you need to know.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you have against reading and instruction?</div></div>
Re-read this thread if needed - I've posted nothing to suggest I have anything against (or for) reading and instruction.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Watching" and "trial and error" can be effective, but not always very efficient.</div></div>
Learning something like this by observation and/or demonstration, and trial and error is far more common, efficient, preferred, and effective than reading and deciphering illustrations. This method of learning is used far more than any other and in I'm guessing nearly all sports, baseball, basketball, football, and soccer to name a few.

How about you come up with an efficiency study on this, dr_dave, and change the world?

1Time
03-02-2008, 11:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I take the topic to the local pool gods in my area, and I get a split decision. But neither can explain why their way is better, only that it is the way they shoot. Even though I do it, pivoting just seems wrong on the surface, because straighter strokes should be better than angled.
I am interested in knowing if my non pivoting friend is just an exception, or if moving your bridge hand instead of pivoting is also a choice for others, and why. Can a case be made for both sides? </div></div>
For the short answer, I'll quote Tiger Woods, "It's all about the W". The case to be made with any technique or shot depends on how well it works for you. When you're shooting for the "W", it behooves you to use what ever technique you have in your arsenal that you think will work best. So, if you see a significantly better player using a different technique to their advantage, as a player, you're far better off learning to use it than to debate it, understand it, or be able to explain it. Another way of saying this is, let your stick do the talking.

cushioncrawler
03-03-2008, 02:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you have against reading and instruction? "Watching" and "trial and error" can be effective, but not always very efficient. Regards,Dave</div></div>Dr Dave -- I agree. I allwayz say -- I'll see it when i beleev it. madMac.

cushioncrawler
03-03-2008, 02:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about you come up with an efficiency study on this, dr_dave, and change the world?</div></div>Hi 1Time -- I reckon that i can help Dr Dave with hiz efficiency study. In 2008 i intend to double my best ever break at English Billiardz, and i intend to soar up the State and Ozz rankingz too. And, i am allready past 60yrs of age. And, i intend to soar even higher in 2009. madMac.

Bambu
03-03-2008, 08:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I take the topic to the local pool gods in my area, and I get a split decision. But neither can explain why their way is better, only that it is the way they shoot. Even though I do it, pivoting just seems wrong on the surface, because straighter strokes should be better than angled.
I am interested in knowing if my non pivoting friend is just an exception, or if moving your bridge hand instead of pivoting is also a choice for others, and why. Can a case be made for both sides? </div></div>
For the short answer, I'll quote Tiger Woods, "It's all about the W". The case to be made with any technique or shot depends on how well it works for you. When you're shooting for the "W", it behooves you to use what ever technique you have in your arsenal that you think will work best. So, if you see a significantly better player using a different technique to their advantage, as a player, you're far better off learning to use it than to debate it, understand it, or be able to explain it. Another way of saying this is, let your stick do the talking.</div></div>

Thanks 1time, but what works well for you, may not be what works well for me. What I mean is if you play better than me, and I want to use your technique, I need to grasp the concept before I can make it work. And to me its not always about the W, its about having a true, straight stroke. With that, the w's will come. Do only what you are good at, and you will always have weaknesses.

1Time
03-04-2008, 12:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks 1time, but what works well for you, may not be what works well for me.</div></div>
You're welcome. And yes, I probably do use a few techniques better than you, but as a player, you're still far better off learning to use a new technique than you are to debate it, understand it, or be able to explain it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I mean is if you play better than me, and I want to use your technique, I need to grasp the concept before I can make it work. </div></div>
Although you should have an idea of what it is you're attempting to accomplish, you don't need to "grasp" the concept before learning to make it work. There is a "discovery factor", if you will, that comes into play. You can learn what is needed "as" you try using it, and that's true with you and everyone else and with countless things that are learned.

If you're competent enough, you will be able to observe back hand English and/or have someone demonstrate it for you, and then with a little trial and error have it working for you. But if you're not comfortable yet with using English (not saying you're not), I don't recommend learning back hand English.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And to me its not always about the W, its about having a true, straight stroke. With that, the w's will come.</div></div>
Define that "W" in the short term however you like, and if that's a true, straight stroke, that's on you. I'm guessing you shoot no better than a C player, but no matter how good you shoot now, don't count on your focus on a true, straight stroke getting you to the next level any time soon.

Here's a few exercises I recommend for developing a true, straight stroke. Shoot the cue ball the length of the table and have it come back to your cue's tip. Next, shoot a straight in shot with the CB at one end of the table and the OB in the middle of the table. Next, shoot combination shots with all three balls lined up and spaced about the same distance apart as the closest OB is to the pocket, like this CB--OB--OB--Pocket. Increase the distance between the balls as you get better. And now try these exercises with a little follow and then with a little draw.

Once you've beaten yourself up enough with those exercises and have come close to deciding the game is redicuously too hard to learn, move on and stop focussing on a true, straight stroke. There's much more to the game. You'll be way better off focusing on what you want the balls to do and what you need to do with your aiming / imagination techniques and stroke to make that happen.

The best first thing you can do to move your game forward is to get 1 on 1 instruction. About four 1-hour lessons per day spaced over a week or so would be real good for you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do only what you are good at, and you will always have weaknesses. </div></div>
Everyone will always have weaknesses, regardless. And BTW, the weaknesses of some are predictably stronger than the strengths of others.

Bambu
03-04-2008, 10:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks 1time, but what works well for you, may not be what works well for me.</div></div>
You're welcome. And yes, I probably do use a few techniques better than you, but as a player, you're still far better off learning to use a new technique than you are to debate it, understand it, or be able to explain it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I mean is if you play better than me, and I want to use your technique, I need to grasp the concept before I can make it work. </div></div>
Although you should have an idea of what it is you're attempting to accomplish, you don't need to "grasp" the concept before learning to make it work. There is a "discovery factor", if you will, that comes into play. You can learn what is needed "as" you try using it, and that's true with you and everyone else and with countless things that are learned.

If you're competent enough, you will be able to observe back hand English and/or have someone demonstrate it for you, and then with a little trial and error have it working for you. But if you're not comfortable yet with using English (not saying you're not), I don't recommend learning back hand English.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And to me its not always about the W, its about having a true, straight stroke. With that, the w's will come.</div></div>
Define that "W" in the short term however you like, and if that's a true, straight stroke, that's on you. I'm guessing you shoot no better than a C player, but no matter how good you shoot now, don't count on your focus on a true, straight stroke getting you to the next level any time soon.

Here's a few exercises I recommend for developing a true, straight stroke. Shoot the cue ball the length of the table and have it come back to your cue's tip. Next, shoot a straight in shot with the CB at one end of the table and the OB in the middle of the table. Next, shoot combination shots with all three balls lined up and spaced about the same distance apart as the closest OB is to the pocket, like this CB--OB--OB--Pocket. Increase the distance between the balls as you get better. And now try these exercises with a little follow and then with a little draw.

Once you've beaten yourself up enough with those exercises and have come close to deciding the game is redicuously too hard to learn, move on and stop focussing on a true, straight stroke. There's much more to the game. You'll be way better off focusing on what you want the balls to do and what you need to do with your aiming / imagination techniques and stroke to make that happen.

The best first thing you can do to move your game forward is to get 1 on 1 instruction. About four 1-hour lessons per day spaced over a week or so would be real good for you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do only what you are good at, and you will always have weaknesses. </div></div>
Everyone will always have weaknesses, regardless. And BTW, the weaknesses of some are predictably stronger than the strengths of others.</div></div>

Thanks 1time, but I am not a class c banger. I know how to play.

1Time
03-04-2008, 11:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks 1time, but I am not a class c banger. I know how to play.</div></div>
Excellent, so you're in an even better position to benefit from my advice. No offence intended; by all means play on.

av84fun
03-04-2008, 11:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed.
... </div></div>
This idea first appeared in print more than 150 years ago. It was only within the last ten years or so (so far as I know), that there has been any good explanation of the physical reason that "aim-and-pivot" works. It's also called backhand english.

Most of the users and fans of backhand english seem to be unaware of the problems with it. I think that lack of in-depth knowledge can lead to problems when using it. </div></div>

Television coverage camera angles are typically poor when it comes to seeing the entire stroke (maybe 1 shot in 10 when the entire stroke is visible).

So I have no idea which top pros use the BHE method. Do you have any observations on who, specifically, uses that method?

Regards,
Jim

Bambu
03-05-2008, 07:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed.
... </div></div>
This idea first appeared in print more than 150 years ago. It was only within the last ten years or so (so far as I know), that there has been any good explanation of the physical reason that "aim-and-pivot" works. It's also called backhand english.

Most of the users and fans of backhand english seem to be unaware of the problems with it. I think that lack of in-depth knowledge can lead to problems when using it. </div></div>

Television coverage camera angles are typically poor when it comes to seeing the entire stroke (maybe 1 shot in 10 when the entire stroke is visible).

So I have no idea which top pros use the BHE method. Do you have any observations on who, specifically, uses that method?

Regards,
Jim </div></div>

Not really Jim, no. I dont know either. Its like you said, the camera angles dont show much of the stroke angle. And until recently, I didnt even realize I used it myself, or why it works.

Bambu
03-05-2008, 08:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, Mac. I suppose you are a fan of both of these shooting methods, and then some. This is looking like another case of different strokes for different folks. It is interesting how we all have our own ways of compensating and adjusting for one thing or another. Something I am not sure of though, why would you need a different pivot-length for right-hand-english and left-hand-english?</div></div>I think that eye dominance etc makes a difference to perceived objektball contakt and qtip contakt. Secondly i think that few of us stroke straight. Most of us tend to help the english, i know that i am better at helping left hand english than right. Recently i spent some time at a snooker tournament and a billiardz tournament, and i kept a close eye on the player's butts. Only one player stroked throo straight on every shot, ie for left-side, right-side, skrew etc. Everyone else hoiked the qbutt left or right a bit, or a lot.

Anyhow, if u do some pivot tests (ie with straight-in-shots), iz your pivot length etc different for left and right english???? I suppoze that there might be at least one separation tween qball and Oball where the PL iz the same, but this happy coincidence will change at shorter and longer range and on a new bedcloth. madMac. </div></div>


Maybe I am missing something obvious, but I cant see why the pivot length should be any different from left to right. Isnt moving evenly in both directions the whole idea of a pivot?

cushioncrawler
03-05-2008, 04:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Maybe I am missing something obvious, but I cant see why the pivot length should be any different from left to right. Isnt moving evenly in both directions the whole idea of a pivot?</div></div>Bambu -- (From reading what all u guyz say on the BD forum) -- I suspekt that pivot iz one thing, but that pivot-length iz another. Pivoting iz something that u all do to some extent, one way or another, for some types of shot. But pivot-length iz a technique that some players uze to help get accurate contact on the Oball when uzing english, at least for their favorit sort of shot (ie for their favorit separation tween qball and Oball, for their favorit strength of shot). Some players probably uze the same PL technique for other shots (ie when separation iz different to their favorit, or when the strength iz different) but make allowance in their aim. Some players might make allowance by changing the length of the pivot-length. I suspekt that the first thing such a player might do when inspecting a "new" table iz to check what PL the bedcloth needz. (I might be talking frogkrap here???).

One thing about PL that haznt been mentioned here lately iz that PL iz also a technique for hitting straight (call this PivotB). What i mean iz, if u have "bent" eyesight, and a "bent" stroke, then, if u get the "right" cue, u will be able to hit some straight-in-shots ok. Here i am talking about uzing zero english (zero intentional english). The "right" cue will have the "right" squirt, to suit your favorit bridge-length (preferably), and in the end 4 "wrongz" make a "right" and u sink that straight-in Oball (zero intentional english here). Once again PivotB will only work for your favorit seperation and favorit strength and favorit bed-cloth etc. (I might be talking frogkrap here???).

Now, i suspekt that the pivot-length for PivotB iz the same az the pivot-length for PivotA (not sure), and, PivotA itself iz i reckon made up of PivotA-L (left) and PivotA-R (right).

But, this duznt really answer your question i guess. But, Bambu, u havnt answered my question -- Iz your PLA-L different to your PLA-R??? madMac.

Jazz
03-06-2008, 07:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... I stumbled upon the concept of pivoting your cue(instead of just moving your bridge hand over)while using english. Specifically, starting out a pre shot routine with a center stroke, but then "pivoting" your cue to adjust for left or right, when spin of some kind is needed.
... </div></div>
This idea first appeared in print more than 150 years ago. It was only within the last ten years or so (so far as I know), that there has been any good explanation of the physical reason that "aim-and-pivot" works. It's also called backhand english.

Most of the users and fans of backhand english seem to be unaware of the problems with it. I think that lack of in-depth knowledge can lead to problems when using it. </div></div>

Do u use backhand or front HE?

Bob_Jewett
03-06-2008, 07:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... Do u use backhand or front HE? </div></div>
Neither. I bring the stick down along the line it needs to be on for the shot and then straight back and straight through, or as straight back and straight through as my fundamentals allow.

Bambu
03-06-2008, 07:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Maybe I am missing something obvious, but I cant see why the pivot length should be any different from left to right. Isnt moving evenly in both directions the whole idea of a pivot?</div></div>Bambu -- (From reading what all u guyz say on the BD forum) -- I suspekt that pivot iz one thing, but that pivot-length iz another. Pivoting iz something that u all do to some extent, one way or another, for some types of shot. But pivot-length iz a technique that some players uze to help get accurate contact on the Oball when uzing english, at least for their favorit sort of shot (ie for their favorit separation tween qball and Oball, for their favorit strength of shot). Some players probably uze the same PL technique for other shots (ie when separation iz different to their favorit, or when the strength iz different) but make allowance in their aim. Some players might make allowance by changing the length of the pivot-length. I suspekt that the first thing such a player might do when inspecting a "new" table iz to check what PL the bedcloth needz. (I might be talking frogkrap here???).

One thing about PL that haznt been mentioned here lately iz that PL iz also a technique for hitting straight (call this PivotB). What i mean iz, if u have "bent" eyesight, and a "bent" stroke, then, if u get the "right" cue, u will be able to hit some straight-in-shots ok. Here i am talking about uzing zero english (zero intentional english). The "right" cue will have the "right" squirt, to suit your favorit bridge-length (preferably), and in the end 4 "wrongz" make a "right" and u sink that straight-in Oball (zero intentional english here). Once again PivotB will only work for your favorit seperation and favorit strength and favorit bed-cloth etc. (I might be talking frogkrap here???).

Now, i suspekt that the pivot-length for PivotB iz the same az the pivot-length for PivotA (not sure), and, PivotA itself iz i reckon made up of PivotA-L (left) and PivotA-R (right).

But, this duznt really answer your question i guess. But, Bambu, u havnt answered my question -- Iz your PLA-L different to your PLA-R??? madMac. </div></div>

Yes mac, as i understand it, pivot length and pivoting using back hand english are 2 different things. Pivot length will vary from shot to shot, but pivoting from left to right should be equal. As far as I know, thats the whole idea behind the pivot. So my answer is that my left and right pivots are even. Given 2 equal shots on opposite sides of the table, my pivot length would also be equal for both shots.

Jazz
03-06-2008, 07:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Neither. I bring the stick down along the line it needs to be on for the shot and then straight back and straight through, or as straight back and straight through as my fundamentals allow. </div></div>

Thanks for the reply.

Is that due to low deflection shaft you use? I've seen you play with Z shaft. Would you compensate if using more "whippy" shaft?

cushioncrawler
03-07-2008, 02:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....Yes mac, as i understand it, pivot length and pivoting using back hand english are 2 different things. Pivot length will vary from shot to shot, but pivoting from left to right should be equal. As far as I know, thats the whole idea behind the pivot. So my answer is that my left and right pivots are even. Given 2 equal shots on opposite sides of the table, my pivot length would also be equal for both shots.</div></div>Me, myself, i have i think twice in my life leant against a pool table (9'). Both times were in Adelaide. I have never played pool on a 9' table, and i have never praktised on a 9' table, but, i have for a few minutes on a 9' table checked out Colin Colenso's (and other's) ideas on pivot length and squirt (in Adelaide). I think that for the standard test (a straight-in shot) my PLA-L woz different to my PLA-R. This might have been mainly due to the fact that i woz uzing (by memory) a 12.5mm 2-piece Predator Z2 birdzeye maple with balance wt well forward and zero linen wrapping (ie damned semi-parallel taper), which iz allmost guaranteed to make my PLA-L different to my PLA-R.

I woz talking to Colin before Xmas, and invited him around to my new joint (about 1 hr away from him). Might try to catch Colin again soon, koz tomorrow i am putting in about $5,000 worth of lighting in my billiard room. He will be impressed. madMac.

Bambu
03-07-2008, 10:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....Yes mac, as i understand it, pivot length and pivoting using back hand english are 2 different things. Pivot length will vary from shot to shot, but pivoting from left to right should be equal. As far as I know, thats the whole idea behind the pivot. So my answer is that my left and right pivots are even. Given 2 equal shots on opposite sides of the table, my pivot length would also be equal for both shots.</div></div>Me, myself, i have i think twice in my life leant against a pool table (9'). Both times were in Adelaide. I have never played pool on a 9' table, and i have never praktised on a 9' table, but, i have for a few minutes on a 9' table checked out Colin Colenso's (and other's) ideas on pivot length and squirt (in Adelaide). I think that for the standard test (a straight-in shot) my PLA-L woz different to my PLA-R. This might have been mainly due to the fact that i woz uzing (by memory) a 12.5mm 2-piece Predator Z2 birdzeye maple with balance wt well forward and zero linen wrapping (ie damned semi-parallel taper), which iz allmost guaranteed to make my PLA-L different to my PLA-R.

I woz talking to Colin before Xmas, and invited him around to my new joint (about 1 hr away from him). Might try to catch Colin again soon, koz tomorrow i am putting in about $5,000 worth of lighting in my billiard room. He will be impressed. madMac.</div></div>

5000 on lighting? What are you making, a pool room disco?
I wonder if your different pivots have anything to do with having a dominant eye. Possible I guess, and interesting how we all compensate differently for things.

Bob_Jewett
03-07-2008, 10:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Neither. I bring the stick down along the line it needs to be on for the shot and then straight back and straight through, or as straight back and straight through as my fundamentals allow. </div></div>

Thanks for the reply.

Is that due to low deflection shaft you use? I've seen you play with Z shaft. Would you compensate if using more "whippy" shaft? </div></div>
I'm back to my no-ferrule shaft which is low squirt. I think whether a shaft is "whippy" has little to do directly with squirt characteristics. I have to compensate for squirt, swerve and throw, just like everyone, but I do it more or less subconsciously. Thinking about the compensation, other than to note "this feels like a good line," usually leads to disaster.

cushioncrawler
03-07-2008, 06:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...5000 on lighting? What are you making, a pool room disco? I wonder if your different pivots have anything to do with having a dominant eye. Possible I guess, and interesting how we all compensate differently for things.</div></div>Just re-reading your original posting on this here thread of yours, and the other postings. It looks to me that allmost nobody actually uses FrontHandPivot for english, nor for anything else. But lots uze BHP. I add a bit of FHP to my BHP koz i uze a short bridge and i am prezently uzing a low-squirt cue. Yes, i think that a dominant eye iz the primary reason why the needed length of BHPA-L might be different to the length for BHPA-R.

But, i have been thinking that one reason why L and R might be different iz that one shood firstly make the pivot (aim etc) compensation needed to hit a straight-in-shot, ie with zero "intentional" english, ie so that there iz in fact zero "actual" english. Then, having made that preliminary compensation (in aim etc), one can now do the BHP thing (to get your english) without worrying about the L or R thing.

So, i went to my 12' table and tryd the above stuff (ie for straight-in-shots with english), but i found it difficult to do accurat tests . Firstly, i found that my needed pivot length for BHP for left english woz longer than for R english -- this iz the opposit of what i found in the past. Nextly, the needed length depended on whether u wanted follow or stun or skrew (which i allready knew). Nextly, the needed length(s) depended on the strength of the shot (which i allready knew). After a few minutes i woz possibly stroking straighter and i found that my needed length for L and R woz identikal, for stun and for skrew at least (and here i woznt uzing any preliminary compensation).

Regarding the billiard room lighting, i temporaryly rigged up six compakt-fluorescent mirror-backed floodlights -- theze are the floodlights u uze outside -- 23W, $21each, 60dg spread. Theze were in simple mounts ($12 each), screwed to the (high) ceiling and theze gave a very good lighting, albeit with each ball having 6 shadowz. Theze 6 lights werent a "bad look", but i decided to pay $4000 for eight leadlight shades, just for a "good look" really, and i guess that 8 shadows will be better than 6 "harder" shadows. They will hang on chains, high enuff above the table to be over my head when i walk around "on" the table. Just 2 of theze (23W) lights etc would be all u need for a 9' table i guess (ie just $1000). In addition the billiard room will have 4 "victorian" wall lights and a "5-candle" alabaster ceiling pendant, costing $2000. But instead of the alabaster pendant i might hang 2 big old white glass (??) shades -- the writing sez (The Plume & Atwood Mfg. Co. Waterbury. Conn. U.S.A.) -- madSherie hates them, but its my room. madMac.

dr_dave
03-09-2008, 07:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to compensate for squirt, swerve and throw, just like everyone, but I do it more or less subconsciously. Thinking about the compensation, other than to note "this feels like a good line," usually leads to disaster.</div></div>But what about the people who don't know (consciously or intuitively) all of the stuff you know about squirt, swerve and throw? Without knowledge and/or intuition backed up by lots of successful experience and intelligent practice, many people aren't as good as you are at choosing the line (and feeling good about it). What do you suggest to those people?

Regards,
Dave

Bambu
03-09-2008, 07:52 PM
Thanks for the input, mac. Sounds like quite a pool room you have, nice.

1Time
03-09-2008, 08:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to compensate for squirt, swerve and throw, just like everyone, but I do it more or less subconsciously. Thinking about the compensation, other than to note "this feels like a good line," usually leads to disaster.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But what about the people who don't know (consciously or intuitively) all of the stuff you know about squirt, swerve and throw?</div></div>
Those not compensating for ALL factors involved will not shoot well. And then later most will adjust, compensate, learn, and improve.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without knowledge and/or intuition backed up by lots of successful experience and intelligent practice, many people aren't as good as you are at choosing the line (and feeling good about it).</div></div>
Choosing a line is only one factor involved in shooting well, and it's easy to learn and implement with proper instruction.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you suggest to those people?</div></div>
I'm guessing Bob_Jewett will suggest reading a book.

I, however, suggest one on one pool instruction.

dr_dave
03-10-2008, 10:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without knowledge and/or intuition backed up by lots of successful experience and intelligent practice, many people aren't as good as [Bob Jewett is] at choosing the line (and feeling good about it).</div></div>Choosing a line is only one factor involved in shooting well, and it's easy to learn and implement with proper instruction.</div></div>Agreed. Nothing beats quality instruction and lots of intelligent practice. More thoughts can be found here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/mental.html).

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
03-10-2008, 01:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I'm guessing Bob_Jewett will suggest reading a book.

I, however, suggest one on one pool instruction. </div></div>
Some can learn from books and some can't. An intermediate choice is videos. For those on a limited budget, on-line resources and books may be the only choice. There is also the problem of finding an instructor who matches the needs of the student. But mostly, I'd agree with you.