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View Full Version : 8 Ball problem - What should I have done?



BigRigTom
03-07-2008, 10:37 AM
This was my last APA League match.
I was strips and it was my shot.
My opponent was a really good skill level 7.
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum/memberuploads/20080303eightballshotexample.jpg

bsmutz
03-07-2008, 11:40 AM
The way I see it, you can either try to knock the 12 into the 11/10 when you make the 15 and hope for the best, or try to get the 15 to hit the rail just to the right of the corner pocket and leave the cue ball behind the 12. He does have a fairly easy kick from there, though, so I don't really like that shot. If you get the cue ball over by the top long rail after you make the 15, you should have a nice little cluster to hide behind along the foot rail that would make the kick more difficult. If you are really lucky, you might move stuff around enough to get out.
Another way would be to draw back off the 15 and try to leave an angle on the 12 to send the cue ball into the gap between the 11/10. If you get right, you might be able to draw off the 11 or force follow to get back on the 1 ball side of the 10, then you're out. I think this is how I would end up attacking it.

BigRigTom
03-07-2008, 12:05 PM
I may not have placed the balls exactly (though I tried to get them as close to the real shot as I could) BUT the 15 would not go clean into that corner!

The shot I attempted was to force the 15 into the corner while I knew it was an ALMOST impossible shot I managed to make the 12 break up the 11&10 sending the 12, 11, & 10 bouncing around the table. My thinking was that even if I missed the shot on the 15 (which I did miss) I would still have a chance that something would drop somewhere or I might even get lucky in some other way.

It didn't happen, he made the one, sunk the 8 and I lost.

Rackum_n_Crackum
03-07-2008, 12:08 PM
..Or try to play a safety by kicking up behind the 11/10...It's a touch shot, but it might be feasible..

BigRigTom
03-07-2008, 12:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rackum_n_Crackum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..Or try to play a safety by kicking up behind the 11/10...It's a touch shot, but it might be feasible..</div></div>

Yep, I considered that. I was not comfortable with being able to hit that shot at the right speed and accuracy both. Since the 10 was frozen on the rail, I would have had to hit the 11 and the to get a legal safe the cue would have to go to the rail. Just hitting the 11 was not good enough it would have had to be a perfect hit and with the perfect speed to hook the other guy behind the 10.

JoeW
03-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Shoot the 15 use above center and use the 12 to break the 11, 10. You have a back up shot on the one and leave the CB on the rail. You have an easy shot, he has a tough one.

So its a two way shot in my opinion.

Nobody finds that 8 easy to make off a rail to a rail.

The alternate version using left on the CB off the 15 is reasonable with an APA 4 or lower.

I would not shoot the one unless I knew I could draw into the 11/10 for position and another two way shot.

KellyStick
03-07-2008, 12:15 PM
Could you simply hit the 11 dead straight with just a bit of follow to break up the rail cluster slightly and leave the CB where a kick is difficult on the rail. A lot of times I look at these multiple problems as a progression. You like to bust everything up and and be able to run out. But so many times you have to settle for small progress. A little movement and hide. A little movement and hide. My whole match last night was like that. Things were clustered up everywhere but I had hiding spots. I went more than 5 innings in almost every game as an SL 6. There just was no good out. Several of my break outs weren't even breakouts. They were slight nudges to develop better position and HIDE. Be sure to HIDE the CB! In fact I made several shots that I am sure baffled many as to why. The reason was table management and trying to win not just pocket balls.

JoeW
03-07-2008, 12:21 PM
I really like using the 11 to break the 11/10 and hide.
Wednesday I played an APA 4, scratched on the 8 first rack. Left him an easy run out with a bad roll on my seventh ball in the second game. That put him on the hill. I had to play hide and watch for the next four matches to finally win. Lots of fun but nerve wracking.

KellyStick
03-07-2008, 12:23 PM
A agressive lower percentage shot would be to draw off one of your balls with rights spin into the one ball and send the CB down table (due to right spin) to make the 8 a harder shot. Lots of down side there and also a chance for balls to move alot to your possible luck... or detriment as you can stike fairly hard on your OB. If there were a way to send a ball to block the 8 ball that would be another shot. Either block access to the 8 or access to the corner pocket that the 8 is looking at.

KellyStick
03-07-2008, 12:28 PM
I like this kind of question with the picture and what would you do? When I was in grade school learning to play chess I used to love looking at these books that had a chess game set up in them. It would say something like find Checkmate in 5 moves or capture the queen in two moves. Then you had to figure it out. This is sorta like that.

It also looks like the 11 might cut into the corner. The ball next to it (the 10? I can't see the picture now) might be made to bank down towards the 8 and block access to the 8 in the corner. Infact you might try to do both at once. Both doesn't look too good here though.

KellyStick
03-07-2008, 12:43 PM
Bank across the table with precision. Just nudge the 11 and tuck up against the rail behind the 10. If you hit a bit too hard you still have two balls there to slow down the CB and get a decent snooker. The other advantage is that you are moving towards deeper cover behind the 15 ball cluster as opposed to hitting the 11 head on where your CB motion is towards moving out from behind the 15 ball cluster cover and possibly opening up the relatively easy bank into the 1 ball for you Very Good SL 7. Basically if you mess up you lose so you gotta go for it whatever IT is.

Here's another strategy. Watch (or play) lots of snooker and absorb how they hide the ball with such precsion it is amazing at times. Actually I think you can learn just by watching good players. Not only learn type of shots but kind of absorb some of they stroke memory into your own.

Ok, I'm supposed to be working now. I am having trouble concentrating on anything but how to win your match!

Yet another solution. Go back in time and fix these problems before you get in such a pickle. Maybe you didn't get a chance I dunno. How many times did you shoot in this particular game? I find that many of the problems at the end of the game have more to do with what you did or did not do in the beginning of the game. THis might only have been one or two turns if that.

Rackum_n_Crackum
03-07-2008, 12:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigRigTom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rackum_n_Crackum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..Or try to play a safety by kicking up behind the 11/10...It's a touch shot, but it might be feasible..</div></div>

Yep, I considered that. I was not comfortable with being able to hit that shot at the right speed and accuracy both. Since the 10 was frozen on the rail, I would have had to hit the 11 and the to get a legal safe the cue would have to go to the rail. Just hitting the 11 was not good enough it would have had to be a perfect hit and with the perfect speed to hook the other guy behind the 10. </div></div>

OK, it didn't look like the 10 was frozen in the pic.. How about playing a safe shot, pocketing the 15 ball and pushing the cue ball straight forward to hide it on the rail??

BigRigTom
03-07-2008, 01:13 PM
My opponent was responsible for the mess you see. He didn't do it on purpose but he was certainly happy with the situation. His shot before mine was an attempt to nudge the one ball off the foot rail into that corner from a position half snookered behind 10 and 11 where he had left himself after pocketing a previous ball.

He masse'd around the 11, rattled the pocket with the one ball, the cue ball came off the long rail and bumped the 12 rolling the 12 into the 15 while the cue ball rolled off the 12 to the position you see in the CueTable diagram. He was all smiles after seeing the out come of his missed shot.

I studied my situation from several angles then called my time out. My teammate and I discussed the options we saw and I decided to play aggressive and try to force the 15 into the corner as I described above. Afterward, since my attempt failed I began second guessing my decision. In hindsite I think I would have been better off if I had played the kick safty into the 11/10 and even if I left a shot on the one I may have cause enough traffic to limit his ability to make the one and get good shape on the 8 both.

If the pool Gods had smiled a little for me, who knows what might have been. I just hope I never see this shot again.

KellyStick
03-07-2008, 01:27 PM
So your opponent screwed up on his leave. Then made a decent masse but not good enough (Missed, sorta screwed up again) then got lucky and left you crap. I hate it when that happens but it reminds me of one of my favorite pool quotes and luck is part of the game.

Many people will say "I'd rather be lucky than good". My response is always "I'd rather be lucky AND good cuz then you can't beat me"

BigRigTom
03-07-2008, 01:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KellyStick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So your opponent screwed up on his leave. Then made a decent masse but not good enough (Missed, sorta screwed up again) then got lucky and left you crap. I hate it when that happens but it reminds me of one of my favorite pool quotes and luck is part of the game.

Many people will say "I'd rather be lucky than good". My response is always "I'd rather be lucky AND good cuz then you can't beat me"</div></div>

Yep!
I like to say that the better I shoot, the luckier I get.
Unfortunately that holds true for my opponent and that is what happened in that match. He is always very good and that night he was his usual "VERY GOOD" and he was lucky too.

One game in this same match before the one I described above he ran down to the last ball before the 8. He had a straight in shot to the corner but had to draw pretty stong to get back to position on the 8. He can do this kind of thing pretty much in his sleep, so I figure I'm racking again.

He drops into his stance and WHAM! he cues under the cue ball, jumps over the object ball and the cue ball rebounds 2 rails back into the object ball, kicks it into the side pocket and then follows it across and bounces off the long rail to line up perfectly for the straight in shot on the eight.

What's a poor country boy like me to do when that happens!
I rack the next game!
That's what!

I lost that match 5 to 1 in 11 innings. He played 4 safes and I played 5 safes. You do the math.

bsmutz
03-07-2008, 03:20 PM
Another option that comes to mind is to bank the 12 two rails up to the corner by the 8 using follow to get the cue ball hidden behind the 11/10. You might get lucky and put the 12 in front of the 8, but I would concentrate on the leave most.

BigRigTom
03-07-2008, 03:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bsmutz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another option that comes to mind is to bank the 12 two rails up to the corner by the 8 using follow to get the cue ball hidden behind the 11/10. You might get lucky and put the 12 in front of the 8, but I would concentrate on the leave most. </div></div>

That is another good idea, I didn't think to try to cluster my balls in the area around the eight.
Thx

New2Pool
03-07-2008, 03:39 PM
Well, at my skill level I would not play a 7 but if I did about the only shot I would have a chance of making that might slow him down would be to hit the 12 with follow and try to leave the cue on the rail behind the 10/11. If I got lucky and the 12 happened to stop somewhere that made his bank more difficult then so much the better. If you are good enough to be able to try and put the 12 into the bottom left corner pocket and still leave the cue next to the right rail then you have a three for one shot. You might get a nice roll and make the 12, or the 12 might block that pocket for the 8, and you put the cue where your opponent has to hit a bank at least.

Billy_Bob
03-08-2008, 06:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KellyStick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could you simply hit the 11 dead straight with just a bit of follow to break up the rail cluster slightly and leave the CB where a kick is difficult on the rail...</div></div>

I would do this because then your opponent would need to shoot a 2 rail kick and you might get lucky and get ball-in-hand. (Although it should be fairly easy for an APA 7 to shoot a 2 rail kick like this, you might get lucky as this would be a lower percentage shot than a 1 rail kick.)

Also this shot is a pretty sure thing. I would not want to attempt a kick safety as it would not be so much of a sure thing.

My thinking is that if I don't know for sure I can pocket a ball (in this situation), I will play safe. And that I would try to play multiple safeties to try to get my balls out in the open and un-clustered.

Cornerman
03-08-2008, 02:36 PM
Nothing to do but hope. If the 15-ball goes, I might pocket it with a bit of draw and nudge the 12-ball. If I land well, maybe I can pocket the 12-ball and open up the two balls.

If I don't land well, I'd pocket the 12-ball and follow on the other side of the two ball cluster and play a lock safe. But, I think I'm still an under dog. The safety needs to be as strong as possible, so if you can knock the 11-ball to the bottom long rail, your opponent can't afford to slow kick at his 1-ball.

Fred

caedos
03-12-2008, 09:58 PM
I would probably choose to 2-rail the 12 in front of the 8-ball (skill+luck), and roll the cue ball forward to duck behind the 11/10. The high priority would be on hiding the cue ball... If he can jump, the 12 had better have made its position to block the 8 or the cue-ball would need to get pretty close to the 11/10 (tough to do because if you bump it much the cue ball never gets behind them).

Depending on the angle, the 15 can be 2-railed the same way and the cue ball goes one to two rails and sticks to the back of the 11/10 for the non-jumpable safe. I like this best but the angle for the 15 can be touchy.


And remember: speed kills /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Carl