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JoeW
03-09-2008, 06:55 PM
After several weeks of trouble with the Microsoft Continuous loop download which completely crashed my computer I am back up and running.

The Pool Ability Test has been renamed Pool Quotient. It no longer conflicts with P.A.T. and their naming conventions.

The preliminary version of the test was submitted to several players and instructors for review and comment. I did learn that some of the sub-tests were derived from Bob Jewett’s work. After discussing the issues with Bob he has graciously, magnanimously, allowed me to use his Progressive Drill designs as part of the test.

Pocket Billiards Review and the Pool Quotient are now ready for prime time. I hope that many people will participate with the construction of this new free test. It can be used in many ways.

I will be adding more links to instructor’s home pages and other great pocket billiards sites. If you would like yours included please email or leave a note here.

I sincerely welcome all comments that will help to improve the test. Inflammatory comments are ignored.

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/

1Time
03-09-2008, 08:59 PM
Please post a link directly to the PQ so I can take a look at it. Thanks

JoeW
03-09-2008, 10:06 PM
The link is at the bottom of the last post
Here it is again

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/

1Time
03-09-2008, 10:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The link is at the bottom of the last post
Here it is again

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/ </div></div>
Right, but could you please post a direct link to the "Pool Quotient Test"?

JoeW
03-09-2008, 11:59 PM
The On-line version is here:

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/PQ_administration_man.htm


The manual is also available for off-line printing as indicated on the site and in the link provided.

Sorry if you had trouble finding it.
From the Main Menu on the Home page select "Pool Quotient."
From the Pool Quotient page select "Manual" from the menu options.

I have edited the site and the html link is now at the top of the Pool Quotient page. Hope that helps.

1Time
03-10-2008, 03:51 AM
Yes, that link helped.

This test would be easiest on a 7' table and hardest on a 9' table. Is it to be done on any size table or a specific size?

I didn't see on that page where it explains how to do the Hopkins Q skill score (10 racks) and the Fargo Score (10 racks).

Bambu
03-10-2008, 08:21 AM
Nice site joe, congrats on the launch.

Billy_Bob
03-10-2008, 08:23 AM
Table and pocket size is something to factor in. For example my 7 ft. table has quadruple shimmed pockets. Also if someone plays mostly on a certain size table, then takes the test on a different size table, I suppose the results could be different.

More things to test for...

Breaking - Distribution of balls over table? Any clusters or all balls out in open? Ability to leave cue ball at foot of table after break, central area of table, or at head of table after break. Ability to get cue ball to come straight back after break when breaking with cue ball in center (can hit head ball dead center). (Newness of balls [all same exact size], quality of triangle, and speed of cloth would be a factor with this.)

Combination shots - The test is to pocket the first ball with a combo shot, then leave the cue ball for a shot into the same pocket for the remaining ball.

Speed control - Shoot just the cue ball and get it to stop at specific distances. Like 1 diamond, 1/2 table, to far rail, lag shot, etc.

Breakout - Shoot a shot and break out a cluster nearby.

Avoiding balls - Shoot a shot and get cue ball to avoid hitting other nearby balls after shot. One shot might require follow, another stun, another draw, another follow with english, etc.

Runout - Have a certain set-up of balls on table - How many balls can be pocketed without missing?

Safety - Make legal shot and leave cue ball hidden from certain ball(s) (snooker opponent), leave cue ball on rail.

Kicking - 1 rail kick shots, 2 rail kick shots. Hit object ball? Pocket object ball?

Draw - Draw cue ball back 1 diamond, 2 diamonds, 1/2 table, etc. (Specific distance)

Follow - Cue ball follows 1 diamond, 2 diamonds, 1/2 table, etc. (Specific distance)

Billy_Bob
03-10-2008, 08:38 AM
Also I think some things could be points instead of a yes/no thing. Like leaving the cue ball in a certain spot for position play. Maybe get more points for closer to spot, less points for further away.

So if way off, then few or no points. If close, more points. If in target area, then max points.

JoeW
03-10-2008, 09:34 AM
Thanks for the suggestions and kind comments.

Some of the new suggestions for shots can be placed in a standard format and included in a longer test used for diagnostic purposes. I like the ideas and will see what I can design.

1Time, the test will be standardized on 7, 8, 9, and 12 foot tables. The data collection sheet requests the table size.

I agree that tables with different size pockets and different types of cloth will lead to slightly different scores. That is one reason the specific shots selected were used. They are not immune to table factors but are intended to minimize the table condition effects. The test needs to be as reliable as possible under many conditions and the data analysis will show if that was accomplished.

Thanks for the suggestion re the Hopkins' Test and Fargo Test links. I will post links on the site today if I can find them.

Does any one know where I can get "official" links?

I have the tests obtained from others who copied from unknown places.

Billy Bob, in the psychometric literature there are opinions pro and con about the use of yes/no versus interval or "real" measurements. In one groups' thinking yes / no types of items are often as well as we can accurately measure some things. Attempts to have what appears to be a finer measurement adds more noise to the goal of accurate measurement. To use and analogy to explain the problem, it is something like measuring Jello with a micrometer; The tool is good the phenomena to be measured is too gross. Sometimes, and only sometimes, if we add up enough yes / no we get a better measurement with the "right" items. There is as much art as math to the design of a good instrument.

dr_dave
03-10-2008, 10:23 AM
Joe,

Excellent job! I think you chose well to use Bob's progressive drills. I look forward to giving it a try. FYI, I've added links to your stuff in appropriate places in my site (e.g., in the links area (http://billiards.colostate.edu/links.html) and under "drills" in the instructor and student resources area (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html)).

Regards,
Dave

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After several weeks of trouble with the Microsoft Continuous loop download which completely crashed my computer I am back up and running.

The Pool Ability Test has been renamed Pool Quotient. It no longer conflicts with P.A.T. and their naming conventions.

The preliminary version of the test was submitted to several players and instructors for review and comment. I did learn that some of the sub-tests were derived from Bob Jewett’s work. After discussing the issues with Bob he has graciously, magnanimously, allowed me to use his Progressive Drill designs as part of the test.

Pocket Billiards Review and the Pool Quotient are now ready for prime time. I hope that many people will participate with the construction of this new free test. It can be used in many ways.

I will be adding more links to instructor’s home pages and other great pocket billiards sites. If you would like yours included please email or leave a note here.

I sincerely welcome all comments that will help to improve the test. Inflammatory comments are ignored.

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/
</div></div>

dr_dave
03-10-2008, 10:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the suggestion re the Hopkins' Test and Fargo Test links. I will post links on the site today if I can find them.</div></div>I have links to the FARGO stuff under "drills" in the instructor and student resources section of my website. (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html)

Regards,
Dave

JoeW
03-10-2008, 11:46 AM
Thank you Dave the Fargo link is just what I was looking for. I just now finished writing up a revision of the Hopkins test from AZBilliards. Your link saves work.

Now if I can only get enough people to complete and send results.

For those who might be interested, I will list my snail mail address on the web site so that many submissions can be sent at one time by mail.

All help is appreciated. To make a really good test about 1,000 assessments are needed. Multiple submissions by individuals over time and on various equipment all lead to a better test.

BigRigTom
03-10-2008, 12:00 PM
Joe,
Great idea and I am looking forward to doing this test myself.
This kind of thing is way overdue in the pool world!
Thanks for putting in the effort (of which it appears you have put in a LOT of effort here).

A couple of suggestions (my 2 cents worth).
Simplify some of your terminology.
For example:
On your home page:
Make a link to the online test call "Online Test"
Make a link to the print version of the test called "Print Version of Test"
Make a link to the Manuel called "Instruction Manual"

Most of my pool playing friends are not overly computer savy and I sometimes have trouble getting them to even use email.
Most of them think I am to much of a book worm too so they are not real anxious to pickup a pencil and paper when we are talking pool. My experience is that most pool players want it kept simple no matter how complicated it is to do that.:)

Also Joe,
I attempted to sign up for your forum and I got to the page that said I was emailed a password. I have not received an email yet and it has been about an hour now. You may want to check into that.

Good luck with it all.

JoeW
03-10-2008, 01:21 PM
Thanks BigRigTom, I will try to simplify !

Very few people on the PBR forum, perhaps this is why. I will check it out. The PBR forum is not intended to conflict with forums such as this. It is a small free service for feedback more than anything else.


I believe in programming with a sledgehammer and find that MS Frontpage is fast and easy. So I should be able to make all the suggested additions and modifications fairly quickly, now that I have my house chores done.

BigRigTom
03-10-2008, 01:53 PM
There is a saying that "You can tell the quality of the mechanic by the size of his hammer!"

That may hold true for programmers as well.
If you have a sledge hammer you are getting pretty high on the quality scale. Just remember if you are determined and persistent long enough, all things will yield over time.

wolfdancer
03-10-2008, 03:36 PM
Joe, thanks for doing all that work...
I've been waiting for a friend to visit and show me some of the P.A.T. stuff.....might get a head start with this...
thanks again for the link

Brian in VA
03-15-2008, 03:15 PM
Excellent work Joe! I've just taken the test for the first time and will do so next weekend as well. I will also attempt the Hopkins challenge which I haven't done in a few years. Looking forward to seeing your results down the line.

Best Regards,

Brian in VA

BigRigTom
03-18-2008, 09:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brian in VA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent work Joe! I've just taken the test for the first time and will do so next weekend as well. I will also attempt the Hopkins challenge which I haven't done in a few years. Looking forward to seeing your results down the line.

Best Regards,

Brian in VA</div></div>

Brian, how long did this take you?
I know the estimate said something like 30 minutes....I was just wondering if that is realistic? I keep putting it off until I can be sure to do the whole thing at the same time and it just seems like I can't squeeze out a chunk of time that is predictable ahead of time.

JoeW
03-18-2008, 01:42 PM
Thanks for participating. There are currently only a few submissions and I am waiting for at least 30 data sets before posting some idea of how people are doing.

Depending on your willingness to accept that you simply cannot make some shots consistently (3 out of 4 times) the test can be completed in 30 minutes. This does not include the warm up period so it might be more like 45 minutes with a 15 minute warm up.

My friends, who are basically "C" players with a few "B" players tossed in, are scoring in the mid 20s. Some higher some lower. There appears to be a real relationship to league handicaps. The maximun score is 48.

Now if I could only find a way to get the pros involved. I hope to get 100 or so submissions and then email most of the pros and ask them to contribute on the same basis. A Pro is defined on the basis of the number of national tournaments won.

Rest assured the test is not as easy as it appears to be and this of course makes it a good "test"

An endorsement or two would not hurt but that will have to wait until there is a ground swell of submissions.

Brian in VA
03-20-2008, 06:29 AM
Hey Tom,

After warming up for 15 minutes or so, I'd say that 30 minutes is about right. If you can set aside an hour just to be sure you should be fine.

Joe's right; the test is difficult. I only scored a zero on one of the tests and that was the position test. Try as I might, I could not get the cue ball to stop on the piece of paper, or even over hang the edge. I rarely play position that precisely and it showed. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I intend to take it again this weekend, as Joe requested and will post a score each week over the next 3 or 4 weeks. It was fun and humbling.

Brian in VA

BigRigTom
03-22-2008, 03:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brian in VA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Tom,

After warming up for 15 minutes or so, I'd say that 30 minutes is about right. If you can set aside an hour just to be sure you should be fine.

Joe's right; the test is difficult. I only scored a zero on one of the tests and that was the position test. Try as I might, I could not get the cue ball to stop on the piece of paper, or even over hang the edge. I rarely play position that precisely and it showed. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I intend to take it again this weekend, as Joe requested and will post a score each week over the next 3 or 4 weeks. It was fun and humbling.

Brian in VA</div></div>

Thanks Brian,
It took me about 40 minutes because I kept going back and forth reading and re-reading the instructions to make sure I was doing it close to right....still think I may not have been 100% sure a few times....???

Joe, is is just me or did others report difficulty following the instructions completely?

That very 1st exercise for example:
I have an 8' Pro Brunswick Table (46"x92" playing surface). The Corner Pockets are cut to 5.25 at the opening and narrow down to 4.25 at the back of the rail and back of the ledge where the balls actually drop.
If you place an object ball 1 ball's diameter (2 1/8") from the side rail and at the 1st diamond and then place the cue ball 1 ball's diameter from the side rail at the next diamond it is a fairly easy shot to stop the cue ball with a soft draw....but....once I moved the cue ball back to the 3rd diamond I realized that that to completely stop the cue ball with draw and still make the shot, it is necessary to cheat the pocket to the extreme right side or apply a small amount of low left to the cue ball or both. This made the shot on my table VERY difficult for me....good information...and I will have to work on that.

Great exercise all around (even though I didn't score very good), it truly is humbling and made me aware of some weaknesses I wasn't fully aware of before.

Thanks again Joe for putting all the effort into this thing. I hope enough people will do it to give you some really good data and eventually give the pool world some good bench marks too.

Brian in VA
03-30-2008, 04:17 PM
Took it for the third time this afternoon and finally managed to improve my score by a couple of points. (That position test is going to drive me to an early grave!) I also spent a few days taking my first Hopkins Q Skills Challenge. That's really an enjoyable way to measure yourself and stay focused for a longer period of time! The fact that it ranks me as highly as it does leads me to believe the rankings are skewed too low versus the score. (I'm a terrible judge of myself.)

How much data have you been getting Joe?

Brian in VA

JoeW
03-30-2008, 07:53 PM
Right now I have about 15 reports, some are repeats. At this rate it will be another few weeks before I can publish any results and be sure that no individual can be identified on the basis of demographics.

Currently an APA 6 / TAP 7 has scored in the 30s and an APA 3/4 scored under 20 and an APA 5 scored in the upper 20s. The test appears to be working. These are "local" scores only.

To date I have not had problems with the instructions accept as reported here. However, I have been giving the test to fellow players in this are so that doesn't say much Tom. I did note the problems that people here have reported and will fix as needed for the next revision.

BigRigTom
04-05-2008, 05:02 PM
I did the test a second time today and I thought I did better but when I added the total it was the SAME! DAMIT! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

I did better in some thing and worse in others.

I hope a few of you others do this so I can eventually see home my scores compare with the rest of the world of pool.

Joe,
I can see where there is a lot of room for tweeking those instructions.
For instance:
How many times to you get to try a particular exercise before you mark down the score. Like the draw shot...If I miscue'd on the 3rd shot I would consider that a miss and if I then miss the 4th shot my score would be based on the previously completed position, and I move on to the next exercise.....right?

If I did the same one over and over I am sure I could get a better score but I didn't feel that would be 100% honest. Once it is allowed to fudge on the number of attempts the end result is meaningless in my opinion but it doesn't say in your instructions that you have to mark the 1st score you get either.

JoeW
04-05-2008, 07:16 PM
The warm up can be one or two racks or until the person feels comfortable -- It is not a rigid time period. Once the test begins the "rules" come into play.

If the player makes the shot on three of four attempts then back up by at least a half diamond. A full diamond could be moved depending on the player, time, comfort level, boredem, etc.

If the player misses twice in three attempts then move forward at least one half diamond. If the player has already made three from this position then that is the score.

I agree the instructions need to be clairifid in a few places and I will do this but wanted to get a few more forms an critiques before making changes.

Thanks to all who have submitted data so far. It is coming along, not as fast as it could but it is moving. I am also making changes to the web site and adding content.

The Zot
04-07-2008, 01:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If the player misses twice in three attempts then move forward at least one half diamond. If the player has already made three from this position then that is the score.
</div></div>

What if you just start at the 8 point position and keep moving lower until you make 3 out of 4?

JoeW
04-07-2008, 06:23 PM
That would be OK. The directions state that the player should start where they feel comfortable. In general, I think it is better to start where the player feels like they can make it three of four times. This helps to build confidence. However, there is currently no specific instruction on where to start. This type of instruction was used so that people do not get bored having to make many shots that are quite easy.