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dr_dave
03-13-2008, 09:07 AM
I just posted some videos showing different options for an end-of-game situation in 8-ball (or 9-ball). The 8-ball is frozen to the end rail close to the center diamond, and the cue ball is close to the center of the table. Here are the videos showing four shot options:

1.) NV B.11 - End-of-game rail cut shot offensive option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-11.htm)

2.) NV B.12 - End-of-game bank shot offensive option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-12.htm)

3.) NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm)

4.) NV B.14 - End-of-game cut shot safety option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm)

Which option would you choose, and why?

Do you know of any other good options?

Do you have any comments, suggestions, or questions concerning any of the videos?

Thanks,
Dave

PS: As always, if you cannot view YouTube videos, you can access videos files directly via the alternative interface available at the top of my main video page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/index.html).

PS: I wanted to post this as a poll, but it appears this feature has been disabled. Does anybody know anything about this?

JoeW
03-13-2008, 09:25 AM
I had a situation that was similar to NVB.12 in a league match last night. However the CB was 8 inches off the head rail and four inches to the right of the center diamond (as seen in your video). OB near the center of the foot rail about two inches off the rail. I reverse banked into the pocket nearest me (and made it).

I like the shot shown in NVB.11 and seem to be able to make it about two out of five times. The bank has a higher probability for me, maybe three or four times out of five on a seven foot Diamond.

On a regular bar box I would have to play the cut because the rails can't be trusted.

On my nine foot Gold Crown with Simonis, I would have to think about it and it would probably depend on how much of an angle I had for either shot.

While I have played on a nine foot Brunswick for many years, I find the seven foot Diamond is a joy to play on. The rails seem to be the same as mine. So the bank was an easy selection.

Funny how the table can often dictate the shot selection.

dr_dave
03-13-2008, 09:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a situation that was similar to NVB.12 in a league match last night. However the CB was 8 inches off the head rail and four inches to the right of the center diamond (as seen in your video). OB near the center of the foot rail about two inches off the rail. I reverse banked into the pocket nearest me (and made it).

I like the shot shown in NVB.11 and seem to be able to make it about two out of five times. The bank has a higher probability for me, maybe three or four times out of five on a seven foot Diamond.

On a regular bar box I would have to play the cut because the rails can't be trusted.

On my nine foot Gold Crown with Simonis, I would have to think about it and it would probably depend on how much of an angle I had for either shot.

While I have played on a nine foot Brunswick for many years, I find the seven foot Diamond is a joy to play on. The rails seem to be the same as mine. So the bank was an easy selection.

Funny how the table can often dictate the shot selection.</div></div>Joe,

Excellent points. Thank you for your input. I probably should have included the reverse bank option also.

I also prefer the running English rail cut shot (NV B.11 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-11.htm)); although, if I were playing a lesser opponent, I might also consider one of the safety options (NV B.13 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm) or NV B.14 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm)). And as you point out, rail conditions and consistency could play a big part in the decision.

Thanks again,
Dave

SKennedy
03-13-2008, 09:59 AM
I have used all 4 options. Generally, I use #1 or #2. Which of these depends upon how well I'm executing my cut shots. I would prefer to cut than to bank, but have banked these shots before just as you demonstrated.
I am not real safety/defensive minded (which is why I get beat too many times) but have done both Options 3 and 4 as well. If I am playing a weaker player who I do not think can make a shot after using Option 3 or 4, then I may decide to use one of those options, especially if I do not feel confident in making Option 1 or 2. However, if I'm playing a higher skilled player that I feel can make difficult shots, then I usually feel like I have to go ahead and be aggressive (offensive) and go for Option 1 or 2.
Generally, I'm going with Option 1 or 2. Which could be why I lost to a 7 Tuesday night. I won the first game (and the only game I won) but I made 4 defensive shots. They were the only defensive shots of the entire match.

dr_dave
03-13-2008, 10:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am playing a weaker player who I do not think can make a shot after using Option 3 or 4, then I may decide to use one of those options, especially if I do not feel confident in making Option 1 or 2. However, if I'm playing a higher skilled player that I feel can make difficult shots, then I usually feel like I have to go ahead and be aggressive (offensive) and go for Option 1 or 2.</div></div>Good points. I agree 100%.

Dave

Billy_Bob
03-13-2008, 10:35 AM
I would choose the "NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option".

This would be for my rule, that if I don't have a for sure shot which I know I will make, then I prefer a safety if that is an option. The safety is a for sure thing. I will be leaving my opponent with a low percentage shot. Good chance my opponent will leave me with a more for sure shot unless he plays a safety.

If my opponent makes the bank, then good for him! At least he had to work for it and I did not hand him an easy shot.

Most of the time I win with the above thinking. Sometimes I lose.

Many times in this situation the 8 is slightly off the rail. In those cases, I slow roll the cue ball up to lightly tap the 8 full on.

dr_dave
03-13-2008, 10:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billy_Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would choose the NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm) option.</div></div>Have you tried this shot out? It does require a fairly accurate hit. If you are a little off, you usually sell out to your opponent, leaving an easy shot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billy_Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This would be for my rule, that if I don't have a for sure shot which I know I will make, then I prefer a safety if that is an option. The safety is a for sure thing.</div></div>I agree with you except for the last part. The kiss-back safety is not exactly a sure thing (for me anyway). When I am faced with the choice between a medium-percentage offensive shot and a medium-percentage safety, I usually choose the offensive shot (depending on who I am playing).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billy_Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will be leaving my opponent with a low percentage shot.</div></div>... not if you sell out by not hitting the kiss-back shot well.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billy_Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many times in this situation the 8 is slightly off the rail. In those cases, I slow roll the cue ball up to lightly tap the 8 full on.</div></div>Good suggestion, but would you do this against a really good player?


Give the kiss-back shot option a bunch of tries. I'd be curious to know which shot you would choose after you practice all of them a bit.

Thanks,
Dave

Billy_Bob
03-13-2008, 11:49 AM
I shoot these safety shots quite a bit, so quite experienced at being able to hit the ball full on exactly.

So far as a really good player and doing this, I know of one person on this board (no names mentioned...) who if he has a bank or kick, he will shoot it and pocket the ball many more times than not. This guy is incredible! Anyway with this guy, the only safety is a lockup safety which requires a multi-rail shot. So in if playing such a person, I would try to pocket the ball.

I would prefer a "shot safety" though. That is if I can, I would try to shoot the shot and at the same time leave the cue ball and object ball in a difficult spot should I miss. (Not easy in this specific situation...)

BigRigTom
03-13-2008, 12:34 PM
Good situation analysis Dr. Dave.
I like the thin cut into the corner pocket when the 8 ball is frozen on the end rail so I would pick your example in NV B.11 - End-of-game rail cut shot offensive option most of the time.

I would like to point out that in the 2nd shot in your example "NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option" the cue ball did not make it back to the head rail...if the 8 ball was frozen to the foot rail before that shot...that would result in a foul and ball in hand for the opponent.....so it is important to hit that shot with enough force to get the cue ball back to the head rail.

dr_dave
03-13-2008, 01:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigRigTom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good situation analysis Dr. Dave.</div></div>Thank you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigRigTom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the thin cut into the corner pocket when the 8 ball is frozen on the end rail so I would pick your example in NV B.11 - End-of-game rail cut shot offensive option most of the time.</div></div>Me too, depending on my opponent.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigRigTom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to point out that in the 2nd shot in your example "NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option" the cue ball did not make it back to the head rail...if the 8 ball was frozen to the foot rail before that shot...that would result in a foul and ball in hand for the opponent.....so it is important to hit that shot with enough force to get the cue ball back to the head rail. </div></div>Thank you for pointing that out. I didn't notice this when I was filming and editing. This makes the kiss-back shot a little less desirable if the OB is frozen to the rail. With a small gap, there is no risk of a foul.

Regards,
Dave

bsmutz
03-13-2008, 02:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
With a small gap, there is no risk of a foul.

</div></div>
You've obviously never seen me shoot!

dr_dave
03-13-2008, 02:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bsmutz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a small gap, there is no risk of a foul.</div></div>You've obviously never seen me shoot!</div></div> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Funny and good point. There is plenty of opportunity for a foul (with a miscue, scoop jump off the table, or dink). What I meant was there is no risk of the type of foul BigRigTom pointed out with the second shot in NV B.13 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm).

Regards,
Dave

Jal
03-13-2008, 03:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Which option would you choose, and why?</div></div>
Dr. Dave, normally I would shoot the bank, but I really like the apparent ease with which you demonstrate the running english cut option. I'll have to practice it more. If I really couldn't abide losing to a particular opponent though, I think the kiss-back safety would be my choice. Your demonstration of the importance of using draw or stun instead rolling the cueball was excellent.

One possible nit. I'm not sure if using english on the bank shot, right-english in this case, helps or hurts. In the case of a non-bank shot, isn't it true that the only angle you gain is the approach or "ghostball" angle (ie, because of "cueball throw" you don't get the full addition to the cut angle...or, you can look at it from a conservation of momentum point of view as well.) This angle is very, very small at this separation. And it would tend to be negated or even reversed by swerve on the way to the object ball. The bank shot might be an exception, but I haven't thought it through. Have you come to any conclusions on this?

Jim

dr_dave
03-13-2008, 04:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Which option would you choose, and why?</div></div>Dr. Dave, normally I would shoot the bank</div></div>Interesting ... the bank is actually my least favorite option. But that's why I posed the question ... I wanted to see what other people think.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but I really like the apparent ease with which you demonstrate the running english cut option. I'll have to practice it more. If I really couldn't abide losing to a particular opponent though, I think the kiss-back safety would be my choice.</div></div>The running English rail cut shot is easy only if you are good at compensating (consciously or not) for squirt and swerve.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your demonstration of the importance of using draw or stun instead rolling the cueball was excellent.</div></div>Thanks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One possible nit. I'm not sure if using english on the bank shot, right-english in this case, helps or hurts. In the case of a non-bank shot, isn't it true that the only angle you gain is the approach or "ghostball" angle (ie, because of "cueball throw" you don't get the full addition to the cut angle...or, you can look at it from a conservation of momentum point of view as well.) This angle is very, very small at this separation. And it would tend to be negated or even reversed by swerve on the way to the object ball. The bank shot might be an exception, but I haven't thought it through. Have you come to any conclusions on this?</div></div>Your "nit" is very well received. When I was editing the video, I realized that the English was probably not necessary (and maybe even counterproductive). That's why I added overlay text to the video explaining that the "outside cut" alone shortens the rebound angle (without the CB English).

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
03-14-2008, 09:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure if using english on the bank shot, right-english in this case, helps or hurts.</div></div>One thing the right English does is help kill the CB motion (with reverse English off two rails) to keep the CB close to the foot rail and help prevent a possible scratch in the side pocket.

Dave

Bambu
03-14-2008, 08:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just posted some videos showing different options for an end-of-game situation in 8-ball (or 9-ball). The 8-ball is frozen to the end rail close to the center diamond, and the cue ball is close to the center of the table. Here are the videos showing four shot options:

1.) NV B.11 - End-of-game rail cut shot offensive option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-11.htm)

2.) NV B.12 - End-of-game bank shot offensive option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-12.htm)

3.) NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm)

4.) NV B.14 - End-of-game cut shot safety option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm)

Which option would you choose, and why?

Do you know of any other good options?

Do you have any comments, suggestions, or questions concerning any of the videos?

Thanks,
Dave

PS: As always, if you cannot view YouTube videos, you can access videos files directly via the alternative interface available at the top of my main video page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/index.html).

PS: I wanted to post this as a poll, but it appears this feature has been disabled. Does anybody know anything about this?</div></div>

Great stuff as usual, Dave. Its tough for me to comment, being that I have never played on an 8 footer. Generally though, the double kiss safety is not a popular shot for me. If the table plays loose and i am feeling good, I go for the bank. If not the safety.
The one small suggestion: Using a bit of outside english in the end of game safety option NV.B14 helps. That way the object ball gets closer to the rail. You can hit softer because the spin separates the balls at a greater angle.

dr_dave
03-16-2008, 12:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great stuff as usual, Dave.</div></div>Thanks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its tough for me to comment, being that I have never played on an 8 footer.</div></div>Why do you think table size makes much of a difference with any of the shot options (other than with speed, which also depends on cloth type)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Generally though, the double kiss safety is not a popular shot for me.</div></div>NV B.13 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm) does require good accuracy with the squareness of the hit.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The one small suggestion: Using a bit of outside english in the end of game safety option NV B.14 helps. That way the object ball gets closer to the rail. You can hit softer because the spin separates the balls at a greater angle.</div></div>I played around with NV B.14 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm) some before I filmed the video, and I got much better results using no Enlgish. As long as I can freeze (or close to freeze) the CB on the rail and get the OB adjacent (even if a bit off the rail), I am happy. With outside English, the results for both balls were never as good or consistent for me.

Thanks for the feedback and comments,
Dave

Bambu
03-18-2008, 08:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great stuff as usual, Dave.</div></div>Thanks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its tough for me to comment, being that I have never played on an 8 footer.</div></div>Why do you think table size makes much of a difference with any of the shot options (other than with speed, which also depends on cloth type)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Generally though, the double kiss safety is not a popular shot for me.</div></div>NV B.13 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm) does require good accuracy with the squareness of the hit.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The one small suggestion: Using a bit of outside english in the end of game safety option NV B.14 helps. That way the object ball gets closer to the rail. You can hit softer because the spin separates the balls at a greater angle.</div></div>I played around with NV B.14 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm) some before I filmed the video, and I got much better results using no Enlgish. As long as I can freeze (or close to freeze) the CB on the rail and get the OB adjacent (even if a bit off the rail), I am happy. With outside English, the results for both balls were never as good or consistent for me.

Thanks for the feedback and comments,
Dave </div></div>

I'm not saying the safety cant be played on a smaller table. Its just that on a bar table, I dont play too many safeties. Big pockets and less green makes the safe game less attractive.

As for the outside english on the long bank type safety, I guess its just a matter of whats comfortable. Works for me. Without the outside english I sell out too often, by leaving the object ball near the side pocket. The english helps land the object ball on the rail.
There is also another safety there by cutting the 8 ball super thin with outside english. Right english send cueball off side rail and down table. After a few feet of distance that gets really tough, but its possible(especially if there is another ball around to kick the 8 into, leaving it in the same area).

JJFSTAR
03-19-2008, 11:36 AM
Here is my 2 cents, when I was being taught pool by my mom (National college strait pool champion 1949) she told me the way those shots are done is to never hit a half ball hit or thicker because of the danger of the double kiss and to use speed and english to make the bank. Later I read Byrnes' books and he thinks the way to best do this is the cut rail 1st option. Aim directly at the edge of the OB and let squirt take over hitting the rail first. Since then the dampening cues have come out (predator, cutec etc..) reducing deflection and allowing one to actually aim just at the rail and the inside english cuts the OB in after hitting the rail. I use both of those. My compliments on how thoroughly you have covered this subject, it is groundbreaking. However there is now way on earth I would take the defensive road on the money ball <u>being the only ball on the table</u> unless I am playing one pocket or a beginner and the only time I am playing a beginner is if they are paying me to teach them. I play bank pool regularly both with 9 and 15 balls; I am no great pool player by any stretch of the imagination. I have played with enough great pool players to know what they play like. But I must say that in my humble opinion what you left with the last 2 options isn’t all that hard for the well read and/or highly skilled player. If you watch enough ESPN2 you will hear the pro say at some point “when the defensive shot is as hard as or almost as hard as the offensive shot pick the offensive shot”. I hate quoting Mr. Hopkins but Mrs. Lee and Mrs. Lawrence also have said this over the years. Once again, fantastic job with the videos keep them coming.

wolfdancer
03-19-2008, 01:32 PM
You have covered all the options...except NVB 666.
A kick shot that sinks the 8 into one of the near corner pockets.
It's a shot that only an advanced player like myself would attempt during a match, and then probably only after 3 or 4 Gin & Tonics.
Nice job on the videos, and a good shot to display for alternative ways to play it.
I'd like to borrow your hs camera and take it to the local golf course....but I'm afraid I might quit the game afterwards. As a teaching pro once told me after watching me hit a few..."you have good hand-eye coordination....you would have to, with that swing"
I passed on Randy's school, as I was afraid he might say something similar about my pool stroke.....

dr_dave
03-22-2008, 09:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I played around with NV B.14 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm) some before I filmed the video, and I got much better results using no Enlgish. As long as I can freeze (or close to freeze) the CB on the rail and get the OB adjacent (even if a bit off the rail), I am happy. With outside English, the results for both balls were never as good or consistent for me.</div></div>
I guess its just a matter of whats comfortable. Works for me. Without the outside english I sell out too often, by leaving the object ball near the side pocket. The english helps land the object ball on the rail.</div></div>On a shot like this, I prefer to concentrate more on the CB. To me, leaving the CB on the rail is more important than leaving the OB on the rail; and as you point out, the most important thing is to not sell out by leaving an easy cut or bank.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is also another safety there by cutting the 8 ball super thin with outside english. Right english send cueball off side rail and down table. After a few feet of distance that gets really tough, but its possible(especially if there is another ball around to kick the 8 into, leaving it in the same area).</div></div>I don't think it is generally wise attempting to use English with "super thin" hits. The risk of hitting too full or not at all (with poor squirt and swerve compensation) is too high.

If there were other balls near the 8-ball, then there would be countless additional options.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
03-22-2008, 09:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... there is now way on earth I would take the defensive road on the money ball <u>being the only ball on the table</u> unless I am playing one pocket or a beginner

... If you watch enough ESPN2 you will hear the pro say at some point “when the defensive shot is as hard as or almost as hard as the offensive shot pick the offensive shot”.</div></div>I think that is good advice; but as you point out, it depends on who you are playing and what your percentages really are to make the particular shot and not sell out.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
03-22-2008, 09:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have covered all the options...except NVB 666.
A kick shot that sinks the 8 into one of the near corner pockets.
It's a shot that only an advanced player like myself would attempt during a match, and then probably only after 3 or 4 Gin & Tonics.</div></div>The next time I have 3-4 gin&tonics I'll give it a try.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice job on the videos, and a good shot to display for alternative ways to play it.</div></div>Thanks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to borrow your hs camera and take it to the local golf course....but I'm afraid I might quit the game afterwards. As a teaching pro once told me after watching me hit a few..."you have good hand-eye coordination....you would have to, with that swing"
I passed on Randy's school, as I was afraid he might say something similar about my pool stroke..... </div></div>I also hate video-taping myself, but I do it anyway, because it makes me face the truth.

Regards,
Dave

Bambu
03-22-2008, 10:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I played around with NV B.14 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm) some before I filmed the video, and I got much better results using no Enlgish. As long as I can freeze (or close to freeze) the CB on the rail and get the OB adjacent (even if a bit off the rail), I am happy. With outside English, the results for both balls were never as good or consistent for me.</div></div>
I guess its just a matter of whats comfortable. Works for me. Without the outside english I sell out too often, by leaving the object ball near the side pocket. The english helps land the object ball on the rail.</div></div>On a shot like this, I prefer to concentrate more on the CB. To me, leaving the CB on the rail is more important than leaving the OB on the rail; and as you point out, the most important thing is to not sell out by leaving an easy cut or bank.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is also another safety there by cutting the 8 ball super thin with outside english. Right english send cueball off side rail and down table. After a few feet of distance that gets really tough, but its possible(especially if there is another ball around to kick the 8 into, leaving it in the same area).</div></div>I don't think it is generally wise attempting to use English with "super thin" hits. The risk of hitting too full or not at all (with poor squirt and swerve compensation) is too high.

If there were other balls near the 8-ball, then there would be countless additional options.

Regards,
Dave</div></div>

Probably not generally advisable, no. That safety is risky and difficult, but not uncommon. It works better at closer distances, and when the object ball isnt kissing the rail(that way it has room to breathe). Personally, I would rather try a thin hit with lots of spin than a double kiss safety, because as long as you hit the object ball thin, you usually at least create distance on the leave.
Too much can go wrong with a double kiss safety, but maybe thats just for me. Can you call that shot high percentage, and is there any special spin you use to do it, or just a center ball hit? Thanks for the input, Dave.

dr_dave
03-24-2008, 03:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Too much can go wrong with a double kiss safety, but maybe thats just for me. Can you call that shot high percentage, and is there any special spin you use to do it, or just a center ball hit?</div></div>For me, the kiss-back safety in NV B.13 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm) is not "high percentage" but it isn't "low percentage" either. For somebody with excellent aim and a good stroke, it certainly can be fairly "high percentage." The video describes and illustrates in super slow motion why bottom-spin is used.

Regards,
Dave

Bambu
03-25-2008, 08:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Too much can go wrong with a double kiss safety, but maybe thats just for me. Can you call that shot high percentage, and is there any special spin you use to do it, or just a center ball hit?</div></div>For me, the kiss-back safety in NV B.13 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm) is not "high percentage" but it isn't "low percentage" either. For somebody with excellent aim and a good stroke, it certainly can be fairly "high percentage." The video describes and illustrates in super slow motion why bottom-spin is used.

Regards,
Dave</div></div>

I should have watched the end of the video. Sorry I missed that part, Dave. I look forward to trying the shot your way very soon. I hope it works for me because I love safeties, and hate long bank shots on the rail.

Eric.
03-25-2008, 09:58 AM
Some of the best value in this thread has to be the slow motion vids. For those that don't know the shot, it can really help to understand what you are trying to execute.

In my opinion, I would only choose the cut shot or bank shot. Unless your opponent is susceptable to miss any ball, at any given time, I feel you have to take the shot.

The only thing that might help is to play it with the right speed to separate teh balls, in case you miss. You might get lucky.


Eric

dr_dave
03-25-2008, 10:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of the best value in this thread has to be the slow motion vids. For those that don't know the shot, it can really help to understand what you are trying to execute.</div></div>I agree. In the future, I will always try to include both regular footage and super-slow-motion footage in the same clip (where appropriate). It takes a lot more time, but it is much more instructional.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion, I would only choose the cut shot or bank shot. Unless your opponent is susceptable to miss any ball, at any given time, I feel you have to take the shot.</div></div>Which shot do you think is the highest percentage for you to execute well (i.e., pocket ball and not "sell out" if you miss, or play safe without leaving an easy shot)? I'd be curious to know what you and others think are the percentages for each shot option.

Thanks,
Dave

Eric.
03-25-2008, 10:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of the best value in this thread has to be the slow motion vids. For those that don't know the shot, it can really help to understand what you are trying to execute.</div></div>I agree. In the future, I will always try to include both regular footage and super-slow-motion footage in the same clip (where appropriate). It takes a lot more time, but it is much more instructional.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion, I would only choose the cut shot or bank shot. Unless your opponent is susceptable to miss any ball, at any given time, I feel you have to take the shot.</div></div>Which shot do you think is the highest percentage for you to execute well (i.e., pocket ball and not "sell out" if you miss, or play safe without leaving an easy shot)? I'd be curious to know what you and others think are the percentages for each shot option.

Thanks,
Dave </div></div>

All I can say is what would work for me...

IMO, there is no safe that is truly safe. The only "safe" you can pull off is if you are lucky enough to leave a low percentage shot for your opponent. The problem is that you won't always leave a low percentage shot, it might be a 50/50 shot (due to bad rolls, poor safety execvution, etc).

Regardless, the safety doesn't win the game for you. A lower percentage shot (not a long shot/hail mary) can win you the game and if you miss, you might get lucky enough to leave a low percentage shot. For me, it's a no-brainer.

I like the cut shot best. Play it wit hthe right speed to leave the CB near the head rail.


Eric

dr_dave
03-25-2008, 11:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion, I would only choose the cut shot or bank shot. Unless your opponent is susceptable to miss any ball, at any given time, I feel you have to take the shot.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which shot do you think is the highest percentage for you to execute well (i.e., pocket ball and not "sell out" if you miss, or play safe without leaving an easy shot)? I'd be curious to know what you and others think are the percentages for each shot option.</div></div>All I can say is what would work for me...

IMO, there is no safe that is truly safe. The only "safe" you can pull off is if you are lucky enough to leave a low percentage shot for your opponent. The problem is that you won't always leave a low percentage shot, it might be a 50/50 shot (due to bad rolls, poor safety execvution, etc).

Regardless, the safety doesn't win the game for you. A lower percentage shot (not a long shot/hail mary) can win you the game and if you miss, you might get lucky enough to leave a low percentage shot. For me, it's a no-brainer.

I like the cut shot best. Play it wit hthe right speed to leave the CB near the head rail.</div></div>Fair enough. What would you say is your percentage for making the rail cue shot (NV B.11 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-11.htm)) in a game situation without multiple attempts? What percentage would you think you might sell out to a good player if you miss?

Thanks,
Dave

Eric.
03-25-2008, 11:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion, I would only choose the cut shot or bank shot. Unless your opponent is susceptable to miss any ball, at any given time, I feel you have to take the shot.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which shot do you think is the highest percentage for you to execute well (i.e., pocket ball and not "sell out" if you miss, or play safe without leaving an easy shot)? I'd be curious to know what you and others think are the percentages for each shot option.</div></div>All I can say is what would work for me...

IMO, there is no safe that is truly safe. The only "safe" you can pull off is if you are lucky enough to leave a low percentage shot for your opponent. The problem is that you won't always leave a low percentage shot, it might be a 50/50 shot (due to bad rolls, poor safety execvution, etc).

Regardless, the safety doesn't win the game for you. A lower percentage shot (not a long shot/hail mary) can win you the game and if you miss, you might get lucky enough to leave a low percentage shot. For me, it's a no-brainer.

I like the cut shot best. Play it wit hthe right speed to leave the CB near the head rail.</div></div>Fair enough. What would you say is your percentage for making the rail cue shot (NV B.11 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-11.htm)) in a game situation without multiple attempts? What percentage would you think you might sell out to a good player if you miss?

Thanks,
Dave </div></div>

I cant say what exact percentages arre, but the rail first shot, from a half diamond from center is a pretty comfortable shot to shoot.

The bottom line is that regardless of outcome, that is the right shot(for me) to take.


Eric

JJFSTAR
03-27-2008, 11:11 AM
Gentlemen I am happy that this thread has moved to discussing the 1st two options. I have to correct my earlier blanket statement about the money ball. If the money ball has a shot that is a medium safety and a really really hard pot I MIGHT play the safety. However we are talking about a shot that comes up much more frequently.

As far as exact percentages go it depends on the CB-OB relationship. For me if the OB and CB are perfectly perpendicular to the rail I will shoot the bank and the distance between the balls if greater does not significantly diminish my pot percentage on the shot but the wider the angle of the bank does make my percentage go down.

If the CB-OB relationship is even a ball with to one side or the other I will generally use the rail first. But the kicker for me and I imagine most is that distance GREATLY reduces my percentage for this shot. From a foot away from the OB and even only 1 ball width from being perfectly perpendicular I can pot this 90% of the time; add another 2 feet and I am down to 50% and you give me the length of the table I will switch to the bank because with the rail 1st I am under 10%. I do the rail 1st option much more often so I know more about what I can do with it. It was part of my practice routine for a couple of years and is by far my 1st choice in most situations. Save for odd positions like the obvious scratch in the opposite pocket or having to go past a side pocket.

dr_dave
03-31-2008, 10:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gentlemen I am happy that this thread has moved to discussing the 1st two options. I have to correct my earlier blanket statement about the money ball. If the money ball has a shot that is a medium safety and a really really hard pot I MIGHT play the safety. However we are talking about a shot that comes up much more frequently.

As far as exact percentages go it depends on the CB-OB relationship. For me if the OB and CB are perfectly perpendicular to the rail I will shoot the bank and the distance between the balls if greater does not significantly diminish my pot percentage on the shot but the wider the angle of the bank does make my percentage go down.

If the CB-OB relationship is even a ball with to one side or the other I will generally use the rail first. But the kicker for me and I imagine most is that distance GREATLY reduces my percentage for this shot. From a foot away from the OB and even only 1 ball width from being perfectly perpendicular I can pot this 90% of the time; add another 2 feet and I am down to 50% and you give me the length of the table I will switch to the bank because with the rail 1st I am under 10%. I do the rail 1st option much more often so I know more about what I can do with it. It was part of my practice routine for a couple of years and is by far my 1st choice in most situations. Save for odd positions like the obvious scratch in the opposite pocket or having to go past a side pocket.</div></div>Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience. I also prefer the running-English-rail cut shot option (NV B.11 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-11.htm)), especially at closer distances and when the CB is away from the center of the table a little.

Regards,
Dave

SpiderMan
04-04-2008, 08:54 AM
Dave,

I couldn't play the videos, but luckily the titles were informative /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

My answer is that it depends somewhat on table size and CB distance, but if the CB is only a couple feet away and straight-on, I'd almost always go for the kiss-back over the cut or bank on a frozen ball.

The reason for this is that the offensive options are probably no better than a 50% make probability for me. The safety is child's play to execute and leave the OB frozen, and easily double or triple the shot difficulty for the incoming player.

If the CB distance moves out to three feet, it becomes a tactical decision, and at four feet it gets difficult to shoot softly enough yet still avoid picking up any forward roll before contact with the OB. At four feet I would probably choose another option.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
04-04-2008, 09:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I couldn't play the videos, but luckily the titles were informative /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</div></div>As always, if you can't view the high-quality Youtube versions, you can view alternative WMV files by clicking on "alternative interface" at the top of my main NV video demos page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/index.html).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My answer is that it depends somewhat on table size and CB distance, but if the CB is only a couple feet away and straight-on, I'd almost always go for the kiss-back over the cut or bank on a frozen ball.

The reason for this is that the offensive options are probably no better than a 50% make probability for me. The safety is child's play to execute and leave the OB frozen, and easily double or triple the shot difficulty for the incoming player.

If the CB distance moves out to three feet, it becomes a tactical decision, and at four feet it gets difficult to shoot softly enough yet still avoid picking up any forward roll before contact with the OB. At four feet I would probably choose another option.</div></div>In the videos, the CB is about 4 feet away. Which option would you choose in that case for different CB positions close to (within 1-2 balls of) the table centerline?

Thanks,
Dave

SpiderMan
04-04-2008, 10:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I couldn't play the videos, but luckily the titles were informative /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</div></div>As always, if you can't view the high-quality Youtube versions, you can view alternative WMV files by clicking on "alternative interface" at the top of my main NV video demos page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/index.html).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My answer is that it depends somewhat on table size and CB distance, but if the CB is only a couple feet away and straight-on, I'd almost always go for the kiss-back over the cut or bank on a frozen ball.

The reason for this is that the offensive options are probably no better than a 50% make probability for me. The safety is child's play to execute and leave the OB frozen, and easily double or triple the shot difficulty for the incoming player.

If the CB distance moves out to three feet, it becomes a tactical decision, and at four feet it gets difficult to shoot softly enough yet still avoid picking up any forward roll before contact with the OB. At four feet I would probably choose another option.</div></div>In the videos, the CB is about 4 feet away. Which option would you choose in that case for different CB positions close to (within 1-2 balls of) the table centerline?

Thanks,
Dave </div></div>

Dave,

Alternate interface played like a champ for me. Thanks, I'd forgotten about that.

If the opponent is a good player, I'll go offense with a 4-foot separation. The further the CB is offset from the centerline, the more likely I'd try the cut, assuming the OB is frozen or within a few hairs. With the CB on the centerline, particularly if the OB is just a little bit off, I'd go for the long-rail bank.

From straight-on to maybe a ball or two off-center, I'm going to miss either shot about half the time unless the pockets are pretty loose. For this reason, if I'm playing a beginner who cannot bank well, I'll consider leaving him the short-rail bank. That bank should be low-percentage for this player, and I'd expect him to sell out to me. I'd hate to miss the long bank and sell out to a beginner.

BTW, you played that shot (leaving the short bank) very well on the video - it's usually more frustrating to have the CB near the rail than the OB near the rail, so that's what I focus most on. You might have mentioned this in the narration, but I don't have sound here at work.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
04-04-2008, 10:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the opponent is a good player, I'll go offense with a 4-foot separation. The further the CB is offset from the centerline, the more likely I'd try the cut, assuming the OB is frozen or within a few hairs. With the CB on the centerline, particularly if the OB is just a little bit off, I'd go for the long-rail bank.</div></div>I feel the same way if facing a good player; although, I'd personally be a little less confident with the bank shot than I am with the rail cut shot (unless I specifically practiced the bank shot first).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From straight-on to maybe a ball or two off-center, I'm going to miss either shot about half the time unless the pockets are pretty loose. For this reason, if I'm playing a beginner who cannot bank well, I'll consider leaving him the short-rail bank. That bank should be low-percentage for this player, and I'd expect him to sell out to me. I'd hate to miss the long bank and sell out to a beginner.</div></div>I agree with you again.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, you played that shot (leaving the short bank) very well on the video - it's usually more frustrating to have the CB near the rail than the OB near the rail, so that's what I focus most on. You might have mentioned this in the narration, but I don't have sound here at work.</div></div>Agreed. The focus should be on trying to freeze the CB to the rail. I mention this briefly in the video, and we discussed this some in the thread.

Thanks for your input,
Dave

SKennedy
04-09-2008, 04:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just posted some videos showing different options for an end-of-game situation in 8-ball (or 9-ball). The 8-ball is frozen to the end rail close to the center diamond, and the cue ball is close to the center of the table. Here are the videos showing four shot options:

1.) NV B.11 - End-of-game rail cut shot offensive option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-11.htm)

2.) NV B.12 - End-of-game bank shot offensive option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-12.htm)

3.) NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm)

4.) NV B.14 - End-of-game cut shot safety option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm)

Which option would you choose, and why?

Do you know of any other good options?

Do you have any comments, suggestions, or questions concerning any of the videos?

Thanks,
Dave

PS: As always, if you cannot view YouTube videos, you can access videos files directly via the alternative interface available at the top of my main video page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/index.html).

PS: I wanted to post this as a poll, but it appears this feature has been disabled. Does anybody know anything about this? </div></div>

Dave,
There is one more option. Player and I were hill-hill last night and I left him that shot. He studied it awhile and then picked (marked) a side pocket for some type of mutli-rail bank. My teammate says "he's real good at this crazy stuff and he beat me for a match on the same shot." I thought the odds of him making the shot were slim to none and I had an easy run-out from there. Well, this guy hauls off and hits the crap out of the ball...after 3 rails it's heading for the marked side pocket at about 60 mph! (OK I exaggerate) But the damn 8-ball goes in and stays in. It was incredible! I did manage to make the shot about 2 out of 7 times when I tried, but from what I could see there was much luck involved with the shot also.
Just thought I would share the fact that there are more than 4 options...not that any others are more viable.....and I would certainly not try any others in match play.

dr_dave
04-09-2008, 04:28 PM
Thank you for sharing that. Somebody also pointed this out to me recently. So now we have 6 reasonable options, including:

5) Bank back-at-you to opposite corner pocket

6) Three-rail bank into the side pocket

Maybe I'll try to add these videos to the website if I can find some time.

Regards,
Dave

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just posted some videos showing different options for an end-of-game situation in 8-ball (or 9-ball). The 8-ball is frozen to the end rail close to the center diamond, and the cue ball is close to the center of the table. Here are the videos showing four shot options:

1.) NV B.11 - End-of-game rail cut shot offensive option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-11.htm)

2.) NV B.12 - End-of-game bank shot offensive option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-12.htm)

3.) NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-13.htm)

4.) NV B.14 - End-of-game cut shot safety option (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-14.htm)

Which option would you choose, and why?

Do you know of any other good options?

Do you have any comments, suggestions, or questions concerning any of the videos?

Thanks,
Dave

PS: As always, if you cannot view YouTube videos, you can access videos files directly via the alternative interface available at the top of my main video page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/index.html).

PS: I wanted to post this as a poll, but it appears this feature has been disabled. Does anybody know anything about this? </div></div>

Dave,
There is one more option. Player and I were hill-hill last night and I left him that shot. He studied it awhile and then picked (marked) a side pocket for some type of mutli-rail bank. My teammate says "he's real good at this crazy stuff and he beat me for a match on the same shot." I thought the odds of him making the shot were slim to none and I had an easy run-out from there. Well, this guy hauls off and hits the crap out of the ball...after 3 rails it's heading for the marked side pocket at about 60 mph! (OK I exaggerate) But the damn 8-ball goes in and stays in. It was incredible! I did manage to make the shot about 2 out of 7 times when I tried, but from what I could see there was much luck involved with the shot also.
Just thought I would share the fact that there are more than 4 options...not that any others are more viable.....and I would certainly not try any others in match play. </div></div>