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Deeman3
03-19-2008, 07:49 AM
I thought Obama did about as well as he could yesterday in the issue of his pastor. If he had gone much further, he would alienate his minority base.

Of course, being from the deep South, I am familiar with the different type of fervor and messages in the black churches. While most are not as militant as this one, we whites do not often understand the forum that these churches and preachers play in the lives of the lay members. Even if that passion goes over the top on occasion, most members do not take the message as "absolutely true" as we often do in our churches.

I agree Obama has to continue to say he does not have these beliefs himself but I think its not accurate to define him based on these rantings. I would like to defeat him or Hillary in November but would prefer to do so on issues, not this case. To judge him by association, in this case, is to mis-understand the role of the church in black America a little I think.

I do think there are plenty of issues where his candidacy has gaping holes and that is where the focus should be, not his church, his middle name or his not wearing a lapel pin.

Mason King
03-19-2008, 09:50 AM
That's really well said, DeeMan. And I also was impressed by the speech, in its largely successful attempt to articulate how confused America is about race. This really was the point at which I said, I want this guy running our country. The guy who will bring a nuanced understanding of an important issue to the people, instead of the most politically expedient response to criticism. The president doesn't DO a lot, per se; his most important role is in shaping his administration's approach to the problems of the day. And Obama shows here that he has the intellectual power and compassion required to take a humane and clear-headed approach to the country's major issues.

Like Obama, I also have family members who are essentially good people but have bigoted opinions of other races. I love them, I respect them, I'll stand by them, but they are not me. I should not be judged by their words. It's wholly appropriate to kick the pastor off the campaign's spiritual committee especially if it's involved with creating policy but to judge Obama by this guy's red-meat pulpit rhetoric is ridiculous.

Does anybody remember that Nancy Reagan essentially ran the White House with the advice of an astrologer?

DickLeonard
03-19-2008, 01:12 PM
Mason King I for one knew Ronnie had Alzhimier from the begining and Nancy and her astrologer were running the Government.

Her standard reply was tell them were doing all we can when he was asked a question while getting on the Helicopter going to Camp David.####

New2Pool
03-19-2008, 01:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mason King</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's really well said, DeeMan. And I also was impressed by the speech, in its largely successful attempt to articulate how confused America is about race. This really was the point at which I said, I want this guy running our country. The guy who will bring a nuanced understanding of an important issue to the people, instead of the most politically expedient response to criticism. The president doesn't DO a lot, per se; his most important role is in shaping his administration's approach to the problems of the day. And Obama shows here that he has the intellectual power and compassion required to take a humane and clear-headed approach to the country's major issues.

Like Obama, I also have family members who are essentially good people but have bigoted opinions of other races. I love them, I respect them, I'll stand by them, but they are not me. I should not be judged by their words. It's wholly appropriate to kick the pastor off the campaign's spiritual committee especially if it's involved with creating policy but to judge Obama by this guy's red-meat pulpit rhetoric is ridiculous.

Does anybody remember that Nancy Reagan essentially ran the White House with the advice of an astrologer? </div></div>

I am not a fan of Senator Obama and I would not be even if this was not an issue. I disagree with him on most issues so take this will a grain of salt.

I think Obama's speech was not a good one. He has spent the previous part of the campaign talking about how much he respects Reverend Wright and how the reverend was a mentor to him. Reverend Wright has clearly articulated his beleifs over a long period of time. I might not agree with the man but he is a good communicator who expresses himself well. For Senator Obama to first say that he did not hear Reverend Wright make the comments and then to amend that statement at a later date to his current defense of having heard the comments but excusing the remarks because of his regards for the man is just politics as usual. I would expect that from a Clinton or McCain but Senator Obama is inexperienced and is running on a platform of change. For him to practice politics as usually be doing things such as being involved with Tony Rezko is much more damaging for him because his honesty and integrity are his main assets.

The president does a lot by his appointments to key positions and by his ability to lead from a "bully pulpit". As such, it is one of the single most powerful positions there is in the world.

So according to Obama his white grandmother was a foul mouthed racist on occassion. Gee, I bet she is thrilled that he has announced that to the world. If that were the case wouldn't that make it more likely that Senator Obama would gravitate to someone like Reverend Wright? How painful would it be to have your own grandmother call you racial slurs? And while many of us from the South have older relatives who have bigoted opinions about race must of us don't proclaim those people to be our spiritual mentors and to be fit to advise us during a presidential campaign. We love them and we don't critisize them in public because that would be disrespectful. But we know what they believe and we act accordingly.

And finally, I remember Nancy Reagan and her reliance on astrology. That a rather frightening revelation when it came out. I don't really understand what that has to do with Reverend Wright though. I also now know that President Reagan was showing signs of Alzheimer's during his last term in office. Both of those facts call into question whether or not President Reagan was fit for office his last term. I am a huge Reagan fan but if I would have known either of those things then I would have voted differently. But we know about Senator Obama and Reverend Wright. For some people, that is troublesome enough that they will vote against him. For others, it will not matter because they are either firmly for or against him. But it is a troublesome relationship in any event.

Deeman3
03-19-2008, 01:48 PM
We do have the strange situation of Reagan having early signs of Alzheimer's and, like you, it would have concerned me as well. Now we have, for instance, Hillary, who may be the self proclaimed, smartest politician in history who had serious memory lapses in questioning on the Travelgate as well as White water affairs. Remember the dozens of "I don't recall" answers that she gave?

Again, I don't support Obama but would feel if we base our judgements mostly on association with others in our private life, most of us would not meet standards of conduct we call for here. True, he is running for President but as I said, any black leader who has attended church has heard similar things. In a perfect world you might stand up and say, "I'm leaving, this is wrong." In fact, most of us would roll our eyes and go on especially if we knew the history of black congregations.

Have we, when it came up, always called friends who might havew uttered racist remarks in our presence? I know I have let things slid when I should not have. I am just saying, let's vote against him for reasons of basic disagreemtn with experience, policy, taxes, etc. not becuase we fear he is closet racist. I don't think he is or has ever shown that personally. His actions seem to speak of a guy who does cross cultures to get folks together.

wolfdancer
03-19-2008, 02:13 PM
"I would like to defeat him or Hillary in November but would prefer to do so on issues....."

I wasn't aware that you were running..... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
I've already decided on my vote come Nov. In the McCain Vs Obama/Hillary....I'm selecting "none of the above"
I think Obama would be wise to put aside any hint of a race issue.
I want to vote on the merits of a candidate, and skin color is not one of the qualifications. He may alienate White voters that otherwise might have given him the nod , by playing that card in the campaign. But given the voter apathy in recent elections, if Obama can turn out an overwhelming majority of Black voters...that could swing the election, but for the wrong reasons.
On the Republican side, since McCain is a true believer in the war, and a rabid supporter of GWB....I thought that might hurt him.......but given Cheney's new assertions about the WMD's ????
Maybe there were???...We know for a fact that he had chemical weapons:
Saddam (http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s092002.html)

Deeman3
03-19-2008, 02:47 PM
I should run, coming from my fly-over status and slow grasp of world events. However, after finding it difficult to get through the link you provided (anything beyond 200 pages is a challenge, as I have been reading detail of Hillary's running the country for the last few hours).

I do see that:

Bush the 1st certainly seemed to help provide the chemicals for Saddams WMD's so we do know they were there.

Clinton further helped him stockpile just to get cross party support of the regime.

McCain, Obama nor even Hillary were mentioned in the piece. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Are we letting them off scott free? I can't wait for Hillary to say she opposed this all along but was not listened to. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I do agree with you that skin color should not be an issue as sex should not as well. Unfortunately, the electorate, present company excepted, are about as educated as a bag of rocks. They will gravitate toward what they know and are comfortable with.

It is those very uninformed people who will decide based on the wrong reasons as you state.


As I hopefully predicted long ago (honestly never thinking they would actually do it) the Democrats are so far ot the left, they can't get back and the raging hormones that are Hillary are tearing the heart out fo the party. When I rudely said a year ago that she would tear the party apart to get elected, I probably didn't really believe myself.

I'm now a Believer.

"I'ma believer, I couldn't leave her if I try..."

wolfdancer
03-19-2008, 03:26 PM
I confess I didn't read the article all the way through myself. I quit somewhere in the middle of the chemistry exam.
I remember them good old days though, when the Ayatollah was the bad guy.....
It's all just a continuation of the great work done by our state dep't, as noted in William Lederer's book "Our Own Worst Enemy" We love dictator's...Papa Doc, Batista, the Shaw, Noriego, and the once and future king,GWB (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif)
I think though that after your comments re: Hillary, we will have to rescind your app't as head of the "Hillary for President" fan club, Ala. chapter.
I still think she will be the first lady to become President.(Might be a pun in there?)

Deeman3
03-19-2008, 03:35 PM
We can agree that our State Department has not done us many favors over the years if we can also agree it has taken more than a few administrations to screw it up so badly.

I'll still campaign for Hillary here in the Deep South, a sure sign she will crash and burn. If she is elected, I do promise to move even further back in the hollows of Alabama and not poke my head out for 4 years. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I do figure we will be chumming up to the new Castro pretty soon. Maybe I can at least, get good cigars then.

pooltchr
03-19-2008, 06:22 PM
Dee,
While I agree that we shouldn't judge Obama on his religeon, this whole situation does raise the issue of his judgement.
Why would someone support a church for so many years, choose a man to perform his wedding ceremony, baptize his children, and bring them week after week to listen to someone deliver the kind of messages we have heard so much of?
When I look for a church, I look for one that matches my personal beliefs.
This whole issue now helps me understand why Mrs Obama has never been proud of this country in all of her adult life. If I listened week after week to the kind of preaching we hear from this man, I might begin to feel the same way.
What is really scarey to me is that there are obviously an awful lot of members of this church, and I'm sure, others like it, who actually believe this stuff! It is going to be very hard to bring the black and white communities together for anything if there are those who refuse to stop looking backward rather than looking forward. Jesse, Al, Lewis, and now this guy. You don't suppose that is why there is so much anger in those communities, do you?
Steve

Deeman3
03-20-2008, 07:39 AM
Steve,

I do understand the judgement issue and wish anyone who hears racist talk on either side would reject it. I am just saying that I am very familiar with the black church's way of saying things that, while wrong and do continue the history of bad feelings between the races, arenot exactly taken in the rational context most of us understand in discussions and sermons in our churches.

This is a hard concept for most of us to understand but the pulpit in the black community is, by it's nature, a political sounding box. It is much more emotional and highly charged than normal worship. I don't pretent it is right and they would certainly be better off to say things differently to allow the children in particular to grow up with less animus towards other races. What I mean is it is taken much less to heart by many better educated in the congregation than by the older and poorer segments. That does not make it right but "politically correct" in the black community. Any black politician must, in some way, play to that crowd at least locally.

I know it's wrong as hate always is. My point is that it is more normal and while certainly holding back the black community in a way, it is even traditional and expected by many. You know I am not an Obama supporter but I am just saying there are some things we can't truely understand and in a wway, Obama loses no matter what he does here. He should have quietly changed churches a few years ago and I'm sure he now wishes he did. However, it was probably necessary for him to fit in and prove he was black enough a very few years ago. Rewmember when they were asking if he was "black enough?"

He can be easily defeated on socialist issues. I just don't want to see us be the ones to make an issue of this, Hillary will do it and I still don't like it from her. On the faith issue, at least he was in church and not just attending for the 6 months before the election. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Anger in the black community is from many areas. It has become easy to blame the white community for slavery and other things. I know they never remember that hundreds of thousands of whites died to free them in the biggest war we ever participated in or that black tribe members sold their own people to the slave traders. This, among many other things is not rational thought. Now, do you convict them for fallacy in rational thought? If that were true, many of us would be serving time. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif When we fail, we always look elsewhere and the weaker of them, like us, do that even now while the stronger just become more successful. Its a natural thing that occurs everywhere, not just in the black community. Many were weakened further by social programs that rewarded dependence making it harder for the ones that would eventually climb out of poverty, for instance. A few have fingured all this out and been wildly successful. What reaaly frightenes the people who want to "provide" more is that a generation might become less dependent on "Katrinafare" and realize their potential and not "need" their social masters. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

wolfdancer
03-20-2008, 02:39 PM
We don't use fancy sounding words like nuanced here....it slows down the reading for the right.
" Does anybody remember that Nancy Reagan essentially ran the White House with the advice of an astrologer? "
I think Nancy got her personal advice from Jean Dixon:
"While she was alive, Dixon was an adviser to many famous celebrities including Ronald and Nancy Reagan. As a matter of fact, Nancy Reagan was constantly hounded by the press for her reliance on astrologers and psychics to set the president's schedule. Jean Dixon was one of the people she relied on the most until one day she decided that Dixon had lost her powers and decided instead to align herself with Dixon's rival, Joan Quigley."

I'm not sure who GWB is channeling, but it isn't God!!

Deeman3
03-20-2008, 03:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure who GWB is channeling, but it isn't God!! </div></div>

He aint channeling me! Maybe Atilla? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

pooltchr
03-20-2008, 05:25 PM
Dee,
I understand what you are saying, and agree that the black churches,particularly in the south, are more than a place to practice religeon. They are often the core of community social functions. I guess I am just concerned that using the pulpit to preach GD America, and blacks are still victims of the white man do little to address the racial divide in this country. It seems to further the victim mentality, which I see as a crutch for those who just want what can be given to them without having to work for it.

I heard an interesting comment the other day that should Obama become President, so much of the victim mentality will be disproved. After all, if a black man can be president, what limits are there on anyone.

If nothing else, this democratic race has certainly been interesting. I wonder if the Democratic party can survive the extended battle that seems inevitable.

Steve

sack316
03-21-2008, 12:53 AM
Deeman, excellent way of putting it all a few posts ago. I'll vouch for that as someone who was born and raised right here in central Alabama (awaiting cheap pop from local crowd... practicing for my political career).

Steve, you are correct in your assessment in that using the pulpit in such a way does little to address the racial divide. I can't speak for other regions of the country, but at least down here the purpose is not to accomplish that anyway. It's more or less an attempt at unifying that particular congregation (community, etc.). What better way to do that than to find a common "enemy" for all those particular people to come together? As deeman said... it obviously isn't right, but that's more or less the way it is in such a church as the one mentioned. I get several of those people coming into my store on a regular basis... and usually things are pretty nice... but I sure do notice on Sundays when I work I feel certain eyes burning a hole through me... and I can generally identify who went to what church that day.

As far as this all goes... I don't see myself ever becoming an Obama supporter in this election, but I must admit that the man has for the most part impressed me not only by his charisma, but also in how he's handled pressure. He has certainly gained much respect and admiration from me over the last few months. But then again it could be just because I feel the connection with him in going against a common enemy at present time /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sack

Gayle in MD
03-21-2008, 07:53 PM
Between the Blacks spewing hate in their churches, and the Islamists spreading hate in their Mosques, I'm just damned glad I've got a gun!

:-)