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New2Pool
04-02-2008, 08:38 AM
I apologize for asking so many basic questions. I just recently started playing pool and I am reading a lot of books and watching a few videos and sometimes the rules get a little jumbled up in my head.

I notice in the BCA rules for 8 ball that for a shot to be legal if you fail to make a ball you have to have a ball hit a rail after the object ball is hit. I thought I had read that if you were totally snookered and had no direct shot on any legal ball then if you pointed that out to your opponent in advance then you did not have to strike a rail on the shot you just had to make contact. Am I totally off base or is that rule for a different game?

dr_dave
04-02-2008, 10:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: New2Pool</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought I had read that if you were totally snookered and had no direct shot on any legal ball then if you pointed that out to your opponent in advance then you did not have to strike a rail on the shot you just had to make contact. Am I totally off base or is that rule for a different game? </div></div>You either thought wrong or read something that didn't apply to standard 8-ball. A concise summary of 8-ball rules can be found here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules_summary.pdf). The complete official WPA rules can be found here (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament).

Regards,
Dave

bsmutz
04-02-2008, 10:32 AM
The only game that I know of off hand where you don't have to drive a ball to the rail after contact is English snooker. You don't ever have to hit a rail so there is no need to point it out when snookered. I'm not sure where you came up with this rule, but 8-ball as it is played around the US has some of the weirdest made up rules of any game I've ever encountered. Some may have been in the rules at one time (ball in hand in the kitchen), but there are a few that seem to be perpetuated by certain players in certain locations as standard for their very small arena. Also, players count on other people to teach them the rules instead of finding out from an official source what they are, so stuff gets left out or changed in the translation much like the experiment we did in grade school where we tried to pass on a message by word-of-mouth only and saw how garbled it got.

New2Pool
04-02-2008, 10:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: New2Pool</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought I had read that if you were totally snookered and had no direct shot on any legal ball then if you pointed that out to your opponent in advance then you did not have to strike a rail on the shot you just had to make contact. Am I totally off base or is that rule for a different game? </div></div>You either thought wrong or read something that didn't apply to standard 8-ball. A concise summary of 8-ball rules can be found here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules_summary.pdf). The complete official WPA rules can be found here (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament).

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

Thanks Dave,
Oddly enough, it was referring to the documents you mentioned that lead me to asking the question. I was bumbling along in my misunderstanding until I read the rules for a local pool tournament. Their rules were so horrible that I sent them both the links you just gave along with some suggestions. I am getting there but this game offers a lot to learn.

Just for grins, the rule that I was attempting to correct was as follows:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 9. LEGAL SHOTS: (Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his groups of balls first and pocket the object ball. (If a person cannot hit their ball without pocketing the 8-ball a stalemate occurs. Re-rack)</div></div>

So according to their rules failing to pocket a ball is a foul. The stalemate rule was interesting but I did not worry about it because I can't think of an instance where it could occur.

There were several other rules that were almost as bad.

I guess me trying to give advice on drafting rules is kind of like the old saying, "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king."

Regards,

Ross

BigRigTom
04-02-2008, 10:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: New2Pool</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: New2Pool</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought I had read that if you were totally snookered and had no direct shot on any legal ball then if you pointed that out to your opponent in advance then you did not have to strike a rail on the shot you just had to make contact. Am I totally off base or is that rule for a different game? </div></div>You either thought wrong or read something that didn't apply to standard 8-ball. A concise summary of 8-ball rules can be found here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules_summary.pdf). The complete official WPA rules can be found here (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament).

Regards,
Dave </div></div>

Thanks Dave,
Oddly enough, it was referring to the documents you mentioned that lead me to asking the question. I was bumbling along in my misunderstanding until I read the rules for a local pool tournament. Their rules were so horrible that I sent them both the links you just gave along with some suggestions. I am getting there but this game offers a lot to learn.

Just for grins, the rule that I was attempting to correct was as follows:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 9. LEGAL SHOTS: (Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his groups of balls first and pocket the object ball. (If a person cannot hit their ball without pocketing the 8-ball a stalemate occurs. Re-rack)</div></div>

So according to their rules failing to pocket a ball is a foul. The stalemate rule was interesting but I did not worry about it because I can't think of an instance where it could occur.

There were several other rules that were almost as bad.

I guess me trying to give advice on drafting rules is kind of like the old saying, "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king."

Regards,

Ross</div></div>

Ross it sounds like you might be playing pool at the Moose Lodge in Simi Valley.....except....I don't think they have come up with those exact rules yet.....the rest of your story sure sounds familiar though.

I played a few seasons with the Moose lodge and we tryed like crazy to get them to adopt the official BCA or APA rules and it was a lost cause.
"They don't like ball in hand and they don't want anyone shooting slop! They all believe in always shooting your best! No one should be allowed to play safe. Always make your best effort to sink the object ball."
At least that was the reasoning or lack of reasoning that was stated for the dumb rules they had adopted and would die defending. I finally gave up and just played by their rules for a few seasons and finally had to move on.

New2Pool
04-02-2008, 11:08 AM
Well, it bugged me enough I finally thought to ask my friend "Mr. Google". He found the probable source of my confusion. The game of Blackball (Rule 5.10) (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_blackball#5.12) has that rule.

I am getting better on the rules of 8-ball and 9-ball though. I am still pitiful but I have done a break and run a couple of times in 8-ball and once in 9 ball. Making 3 balls on the break helped a lot in 9 ball though.

Thanks to all.

SKennedy
04-02-2008, 12:09 PM
[quote=BigRigTom
"They don't like ball in hand and they don't want anyone shooting slop! They all believe in always shooting your best! No one should be allowed to play safe. Always make your best effort to sink the object ball."
[/quote]

That was the mentality in my geographical area of the proper and "manly" way to play pool, and still is in many bar rooms. Since joining the APA league I have had to learn a new way to play, which includes safeties, defensive shots, etc. Back in the day, playing a defensive shot was just not done. One never had ball in hand anywhere on the table, it was always "in the kitchen." Hence, there was a considerable amount of purposeful scratching when your opponent only had one remaining ball that was near the head rail. However, one had to make the scratch look unintentional, and preferably you made your shot (pocketed the object ball) and still scratched. A decent player might do this 3 or 4 times in a single game, if necessary. In fact, one was often judged by his ability to scratch at will as opposed to actually winning at 8-ball. I imagine these "Moose" fellows are generally older and grew up much the way I did with respect to playing pool. There was "honor" in always making your best effort to pocket a ball regardless of the set-up!

eb_in_nc
04-02-2008, 01:03 PM
Skennedy, you are right on with your comments. For me, this is the biggest difference between my play and the younger players of today at the same skill level. My defensive game is not as good as theirs as I also was brought up to always "take the shot" in lieu of losing the match. But playing within the APA has changed that all, and it's given me the motivation to make my defensive game as strong as my shot making side. I say this as my shooting as of late has been running out the table and leaving either one ball or the 8 ball remaining, but ending up losing the game due to lost position, or the ball being stuck in a cluster which I could not break up during the run. Considering I have been losing a very high percentage of games going in this direction, I address that to not being able to play a stronger defensive shot by putting my opponent in a more difficult lie to run the table out on me.

SKennedy
04-02-2008, 01:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skennedy, you are right on with your comments. For me, this is the biggest difference between my play and the younger players of today at the same skill level. My defensive game is not as good as theirs as I also was brought up to always "take the shot" in lieu of losing the match. But playing within the APA has changed that all, and it's given me the motivation to make my defensive game as strong as my shot making side. I say this as my shooting as of late has been running out the table and leaving either one ball or the 8 ball remaining, but ending up losing the game due to lost position, or the ball being stuck in a cluster which I could not break up during the run. Considering I have been losing a very high percentage of games going in this direction, I address that to not being able to play a stronger defensive shot by putting my opponent in a more difficult lie to run the table out on me. </div></div>

Not sure how long you've been playing league, but I have been playing for 1 year now (this is my 4th session). I struggled with the same thing. I'm aggressive and generally finish a game stronger than I start. However, with these guys more skilled with defensive shots I was having trouble finishing the game. My defensive play has improved, but still needs much work. We have a really good 6 (Richard) on the team who I expect any day will move to a 7 (8-ball league). He's won 12 of 13 matches this session and almost all against 6's and 7's. His one loss this session was revenged last night when he played the same guy again. Richard won the match 5 - 0. In the 4th game it looked like Richard might end up losing the game as his opponent had about run-out and Richard had some balls with fuuny lies or tied up. But Nope! He went into major defensive mode and frustrated his opponent. The defensive skill was just as impressive as his offensive skills. And his offensive skills....I played him 9-ball a few nights ago and he won the first 4 games and I never even touched my cue stick. He broke and ran, 9-ball on the break, 9-ball on the break again, and then broke and ran again. Better lucky than skillful? How about both?

If Richard playing defense like he did last night vs an opponent 30+ years ago in the south for money, he'd likely get his money but he'd still get his butt kicked...one way or the other.

eb_in_nc
04-02-2008, 02:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not sure how long you've been playing league, but I have been playing for 1 year now (this is my 4th session). I struggled with the same thing. I'm aggressive and generally finish a game stronger than I start. However, with these guys more skilled with defensive shots I was having trouble finishing the game. My defensive play has improved, but still needs much work. We have a really good 6 (Richard) on the team who I expect any day will move to a 7 (8-ball league). He's won 12 of 13 matches this session and almost all against 6's and 7's. His one loss this session was revenged last night when he played the same guy again. Richard won the match 5 - 0. In the 4th game it looked like Richard might end up losing the game as his opponent had about run-out and Richard had some balls with fuuny lies or tied up. But Nope! He went into major defensive mode and frustrated his opponent. The defensive skill was just as impressive as his offensive skills. And his offensive skills....I played him 9-ball a few nights ago and he won the first 4 games and I never even touched my cue stick. He broke and ran, 9-ball on the break, 9-ball on the break again, and then broke and ran again. Better lucky than skillful? How about both?

If Richard playing defense like he did last night vs an opponent 30+ years ago in the south for money, he'd likely get his money but he'd still get his butt kicked...one way or the other. </div></div>

I've been playing APA now only for only 6 months, have a total of 32 matches under my belt. From the sounds of your teammate Richard, he is my idol and that's how I want to be able to shoot knowing best when to optimize my offensive game and defensive game. No doubt that ball lie has a lot to do with winning the game, but players like him bring good karma to the table and they often seem to have the better luck as well.

BigRigTom
04-02-2008, 02:46 PM
The better you shoot the luckier you get!

SKennedy
04-02-2008, 03:08 PM
Brings good karma for the team as well.

Bob_Jewett
04-02-2008, 03:41 PM
So as you noticed, the rule was for a different game, but in fact the "hit no cushion from a snooker" rule was in mainline pool a few years ago (like maybe 80).

If you are just learning the rules, I recommend the new BCA/WPA rules which are available on http://www.wpa-pool.com and just recently on the BCA web site. In particular, try to learn the fouls well enough that you can recognize the short names.

Understanding why those particular actions are fouls is not always easy. Your example is a good example for that. The "no rail after a hit" rule prevents infinitely long safety battles in which players just roll up to a ball or maybe don't hit any ball at all. Requiring a cushion contact after ball-ball contact is a simple way to prevent such play. The rule in blackball is another way, but it is descended from the rules and attitudes of snooker rather than pool and so the difference.

pooltchr
04-02-2008, 06:15 PM
eb,
Just wondering where in nc you are playing?
Steve

eb_in_nc
04-03-2008, 07:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">eb,
Just wondering where in nc you are playing?
Steve </div></div>

Steve, I play in Raleigh. You're lucky, I hear the play in Charlotte is top notch with having people like Allison Fisher living in your area.