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hondo
04-02-2008, 09:34 AM
Quote LWW on AZ:"Even your buds from the moombat forum have abandoned you houndo".

He has made several comments like this recently.
" You've become the laughing stock of your own moonbat forum", etc.

Is this true? I know Eg doesn't think much of me, but I thought I had a good relationship with everyone else on here, lib or conservative.

I felt he needed called on this one.

sack316
04-02-2008, 10:21 AM
Sack still loves ya Hondo--- whatever that may be worth.

Besides, I may need to hire you do to ride to Buena Vista to do some spying for me... seriously!

Sack

bsmutz
04-02-2008, 11:33 AM
I heard you can get a very good view from Buena Vista...

wolfdancer
04-02-2008, 11:35 AM
Hondo, since no one is paying much attention to him these days....it's just an attempt to start another flame war.
Ed doesn't like Gayle, myself, nor anyone that isn't a Republican...other then that he's a decent person. I have a different idea though about your wannabe tormentor.
Personally, I think you are one of the "good guys" here, and it's
someone else's problem if they object to anyone not buying into the
"party line"
It's also really trite that he tries to involve this board with AZB's.

SKennedy
04-02-2008, 12:30 PM
Hondo, why be concerned? Do you have respect from those on the board you admire and respect? If you don't respect LWW, why let him get to you? My gosh man....You are a retired school teacher!
I may not agree with you and would not fall into the category of being one of your "buds", but even I haven't abandoned you. I wouldn't even go so far as to say Ed has abandoned you....he just might have given up hope of any reasonable discourse, etc. We all have our opinions and even if we don't respect each other's beliefs, we can still respect each other. LWW must be laughing his butt off right now at this thread topic. Just think of him as one of your troublesome students......and don't give him the satisfaction of getting your goat.
There is one person who contributes on here that I will not engage in any manner. However, I still respect that person for standing up for their beliefs....but I may not respect them for any other reason.

DickLeonard
04-02-2008, 12:47 PM
Hondo if you pay any attention to that pompus idiot, that would be your only flaw.####

eg8r
04-02-2008, 01:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this true? I know Eg doesn't think much of me, but I thought I had a good relationship with everyone else on here, lib or conservative.

I felt he needed called on this one.
</div></div> I think plenty of you, you just don't like it when I state it. This post of yours is another example of why. Why is it so hard for you to figure out that it does not matter what LWW says on AZ? No one cares and he does not have a following over here so there is no reason to care. You just want to start another fight because you got bored again and wanted to ruffle some feathers.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
04-02-2008, 01:26 PM
More fantasies from the nowhere man? You know we're your friends, Hondo, and anyway, when dealing with Bushites, those folks who live in perpetual fog, the so called neocon-onservatives, I refer you to this review of the profile of present day Republicans, Neocons, pseudo conservatives, from a true Goldwater conservative, non other than John Dean. Remember, that what used to be known as a Republican, or conservative, is now called either a Democrat, or an Independent. Hence, only the nutty 28% is left on the true right, hence only those who need crayons to connect the dots, can still be called Republicans. Thos who finally woke up and dried out from the kool aid, are now red faced, and members of either the Independent, or Democratic party's.


[quote]Bus ran one of the dirtiest, not to mention most negative campaigns in American historyl. As New York Times columnist Maurine Dowd, who has been watching campaigns longer and closer than most, succcinctly summarized it: "The President got re-elected by dividing the country along fault lines of fear, intolerance, ignorance and religious rule. He doesn't want to heal rifts; he wants to bring any riffraff who disagree to heel.' An even more blunt asessment of the election war offered in the London Daily Morrir's wicked and now notorious headline HOW CAN 59,04,087 PEOPLE BE SO DUMB? And the Mirror spared no insults in describing these 50 million Bush voters: 'The self righteous, gun totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay loathin', Foreign-despisin', non passport-ownin'" rednecks, who believe God gave America the biggest dick in the world so it could urinate on the rest of us and make their land "free and strong.' "

Sadly there is much truth to the charge about the ignorance of Bush voters. In fact, the evidence indicates that Bush and Kerry voters literally occupied "separate realities" - and this is not a reference to the red states versus the blue states of TV land. Rather the term coomes from an acadenic study prepared by the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA). This report, based on polling conducted just before voters cast their ballots on November 2, 2004, is titled The Separate Realities of Buysh and Kerry Supporters. Unlike the London Mirror, the PIPA study is not the work of a few left-leaning writers and editors poking fun at the United States, The PIPA project, underwritten by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund and the Ford Foundation, is solid scjholarship, and its erudition makes the findings all the more stark. A few examples make the point.

Notwithstanding widely and well reported information to the contrary, a large majority of Bush supporters (72 percent) believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. (Only 26 percent of Kerry supporters had this miscinception.)

Although Bush's chief weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, provided his well-publicized report to Congress (shortly before the poll was taken) advising that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, a substantial majority of Bush supporters (57 percent) believed that Duelfer had reported exactly the opposite. (Only 23 percent of Kerry supporters had this misimpression.)

Despite the widely reported findings of the 9/11 commission that there was no evidence that Iraq provided any significant support to al Qaeda, and overwhelming number of Bush supporters (75 percent) believed that Iraq had provided such support. (Only 30 percent of Kerry supporters had this information wrong.)



The separate realities of the Bush and Kerry supporters is most striking given the poll results showing that they both agreed
that the United States should not have gone to war if there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or if there was no support of al Qaeda by Saddam. The PIPA study of voters' perceptions was not limited to the war in Iraq; rather, theBush supporters' ignorance about their candidate's positions covered a wide spectrum. For example, an overwhelming majority of Bush voters believed he supports "multilaeral approaches," when in fact he supports unilateral approaches; and a majority (52 percent) believed he is 'ddressing global warming,' when he is not.

Bush opponents believe such polls prove that these people are simply stupid. cognitive linguist and University of California (Berkely) professor George Lakoff provides a better explanation. For Lakeoff it is a matter of 'framing.' "Framing is about getting language that fits your worldview,' he explains. 'It is just language. The ideas are primary - and the language carries those ideas, evokes those ideas.' Lakoff sees Bush as the beneficiary of dedades of framing and message disciplina by conservatives and their think tanks (which progressives have failed to do). 'To be accepted, the truith must fit people's frames, 'he says. 'If the facts do not fit a frame, the frame [or worldview] stays and the facts bounce off.' Lakoff, however, is not saying that blatant lying becomes truth, only that what appears to those with a different worldview to be a falsehood may be seen by others as truth.

But anyone who believes that Bush and Cheney did not lie their way back into a second term is smoking something stronger than bad frames. The misinformation that they relied on to get reelected makes their postelection claim of a mandate even more dubious, for how can there be a mandate if those who voted for Bush did not understand and were lied to about his positions, and the issues he now claims to have recieved a mandate for were barely discussed during the campaign? In addition, not everyone who voted for Bush and Cheney shares their frames. *In truth, Bush is again pretending, as he did in 2000, to have a mandate, when in fact he doesn't.

Bush's second term is built on the weakest of foundations. A secret presidency is not a strong presidency, but rather a weak one. To understand this presidency, it is important to look beneath its bluff and bravado and bullying.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


Interesting, huh? Bottom line is they can't follow anything, so why bother paying any attention at all to their yabbering stupidity? Consider the source, friend. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

hondo
04-02-2008, 01:42 PM
Thanks to all who responded. I'm feeling so much better now, think I'll cakewalk into town.

hondo
04-02-2008, 01:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think plenty of you, you just don't like it when I state it.

eg8r </div></div>


Hmmm. That could be taken two ways???

eg8r
04-02-2008, 01:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ed doesn't like Gayle, myself, nor anyone that isn't a Republican...other then that he's a decent person. </div></div> This is not a fair statement but thanks for blindly believing I am a decent person. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Actually I enjoy chatting with Gayle through PM. We have not chatted much lately but it is not because I don't like her. As for you wolf, I don't dislike you, I just don't know you besides the posts of yours on this board. I am sure in person if you have as short of a temper as I see on the board, we may not ever be close friends because I do freely speak what is on my mind and you don't seem to handle that as well. No issues though. Now, for hondo...I would be fine with hondo if he just started acting his own age.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's also really trite that he tries to involve this board with AZB's.
</div></div> To be fair, hondo is the only one trying to involve this board with AZB. LWW does not come over here and tell us about the other board. The only person doing that consistently is hondo. The only reason hondo does this is to stir up crap.

eg8r

wolfdancer
04-02-2008, 02:41 PM
I have a quick temper, but it's in response to the fact that while I reserve my contempt for this admin, all I see in reply are personal insults....and to aggravate matters,I'm supposed to be afraid of some ****(I'm trying not to add in my own insults)
It is a moot point for me now, as I have decided not to involve myself in any political discussions here anymore *****.(never could keep a resolution though)
As for Hondo not acting his age, and being the instigator....I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you there. I've read a few of lww's posts, concerning this board over on AZB, and think they should be reported back here, so that more members here can see what kind of person they are dealing with.
It wasn't a blind belief re you being a decent person....I picked up on that from the few "friendly" non-political pms that we have exchanged in the past....quite some time ago.

wolfdancer
04-02-2008, 02:49 PM
while your "turn the other cheek" might be good advice for Hondo, the other poster is looking for any opportunity to try to belittle somebody....and it's not easy to remain quiet while your name is being smeared on two boards.

"There is one person who contributes....."
Does this mean we won't be exchanging Xmas cards (again) this year????

SKennedy
04-02-2008, 03:22 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">while your "turn the other cheek" might be good advice for Hondo, the other poster is looking for any opportunity to try to belittle somebody....and it's not easy to remain quiet while your name is being smeared on two boards.

"There is one person who contributes....."
Does this mean we won't be exchanging Xmas cards (again) this year???? </div></div>

I did not mean to imply that Hondo "turn the other cheek" as I often have trouble with that issue myself. I was basically stating, or trying to, that by him starting this thread as a response to LWW he has shown that he's allowed LWW to get under his skin. And it was just my way of letting Hondo know I certainly harbor no ill-will toward him.
And as for you Wolfie? I'll always be glad to exchange a card with you. And while Ed may or may not be right about your temper, I suspect your bark is much worse than your bite and once you finish your ranting and raving, you settle down pretty quickly. I mean, what else are us older guys going to do anyway other than bark a lot and talk about how hard we use to bite!! Ed is still a young man! Isn't that alone grounds enough for hating him? LOL

hondo
04-02-2008, 05:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ed doesn't like Gayle, myself, nor anyone that isn't a Republican...other then that he's a decent person. </div></div> This is not a fair statement but thanks for blindly believing I am a decent person. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Actually I enjoy chatting with Gayle through PM. We have not chatted much lately but it is not because I don't like her. As for you wolf, I don't dislike you, I just don't know you besides the posts of yours on this board. I am sure in person if you have as short of a temper as I see on the board, we may not ever be close friends because I do freely speak what is on my mind and you don't seem to handle that as well. No issues though. Now, for hondo...I would be fine with hondo if he just started acting his own age.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's also really trite that he tries to involve this board with AZB's.
</div></div> To be fair, hondo is the only one trying to involve this board with AZB. LWW does not come over here and tell us about the other board. The only person doing that consistently is hondo. The only reason hondo does this is to stir up crap.

eg8r </div></div>

I'll be honest. There are times when I get tired of your crap.
You don't know me. You sit in judgement of me because I don't buy
into your George is great, the Republicans are great, the war is great, crap.
You'll be fine for a while and then when your time of the month rolls around, you start in on what I have posted at the time.
I'd just as soon you plug it up and leave me out of your little PMS tirades.
Hope I made myself clear.
I've tried to get along with you. It's impossible.
You're a dick. Piss off.

pooltchr
04-02-2008, 06:03 PM
Those are some interesting statistics, but I have to wonder how accurate they are.
Here's a question that might provide some interesting results. I wonder what percentage of Reps vs Dems have a college degree, or for that matter, a high school diploma.
Steve

hondo
04-02-2008, 06:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a quick temper, but it's in response to the fact that while I reserve my contempt for this admin, all I see in reply are personal insults....and to aggravate matters,I'm supposed to be afraid of some ****(I'm trying not to add in my own insults)
It is a moot point for me now, as I have decided not to involve myself in any political discussions here anymore *****.(never could keep a resolution though)
As for Hondo not acting his age, and being the instigator....I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you there. I've read a few of lww's posts, concerning this board over on AZB, and think they should be reported back here, so that more members here can see what kind of person they are dealing with.
It wasn't a blind belief re you being a decent person....I picked up on that from the few "friendly" non-political pms that we have exchanged in the past....quite some time ago. </div></div>


Thanks, Wolfie. Eg got jealous over the brouha Dub created and blamed me.
So now he attacks me when the opportunity arises.
I suggest he put me on ignore and then he won't have to concern
himself with anything I say.
As for him being a decent person? Define decent.

hondo
04-02-2008, 06:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">while your "turn the other cheek" might be good advice for Hondo, the other poster is looking for any opportunity to try to belittle somebody....and it's not easy to remain quiet while your name is being smeared on two boards.

"There is one person who contributes....."
Does this mean we won't be exchanging Xmas cards (again) this year???? </div></div>

I did not mean to imply that Hondo "turn the other cheek" as I often have trouble with that issue myself. I was basically stating, or trying to, that by him starting this thread as a response to LWW he has shown that he's allowed LWW to get under his skin. And it was just my way of letting Hondo know I certainly harbor no ill-will toward him.
And as for you Wolfie? I'll always be glad to exchange a card with you. And while Ed may or may not be right about your temper, I suspect your bark is much worse than your bite and once you finish your ranting and raving, you settle down pretty quickly. I mean, what else are us older guys going to do anyway other than bark a lot and talk about how hard we use to bite!! Ed is still a young man! Isn't that alone grounds enough for hating him? LOL </div></div>

Actually Eg is somewhat right. This post was to make a point to Dub.
He's not really getting under my skin.
When he spouts off, I like to call him on it.
I feel that I get along real well with all the regulars on here but Eg and I wanted to prove to Dub that he was just talking
sheet on the other forum.

hondo
04-02-2008, 06:14 PM
Steve, I realize it may be different in other areas but in my state, Republicans tend to be quite a bit wealthier than Dems overall.
So I would guess more of them tend to go to college.

LWW
04-03-2008, 04:50 AM
Well, it seems that other than Wolfie and Gaylie ... who we both know would vote for a Hitler - Stalin ticket as long as it had the DNC flag waving behind them ... that I was right, but you knew that.

LWW

hondo
04-03-2008, 05:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, it seems that other than Wolfie and Gaylie ... who we both know would vote for a Hitler - Stalin ticket as long as it had the DNC flag waving behind them ... that I was right, but you knew that.

LWW </div></div>


Prove it. Every single poster but Eg had something good to say to me and Eg told me that you're so insignificant on here that I
should ignore you.
Once again you're caught up in your lies and made to look foolish. I feel bad for you.
Even your buddies on AZ are starting to tell you to STFU.
What's left if they abandon you?

Really you haven't been bad on the other forum and I should have left you alone.
I wanted to prove a point to you, but apparently you never even
read the posts.
I'm starting to think you might make a worthy successor to bushie after all.

Gayle in MD
04-03-2008, 07:32 AM
You are so welcome, dear friend. I'm glad that you realized that I wasn't suggesting that you didn't have a right to be angry about this idiotic nowhere man's tactics, only that you take into account the irrelevancy of the attacks, given the source.

Taking a stand against Republicans, and particularly this administration, in this day and time, is not only an urgent and necessary requirement of partiotism, but I view it as my responsibility as a citizen of the United States Of America.

While it has certainly been extremely well documented that the Bush Administration has lied to we American Citizens, over and over again, about their national and international policies, and also thoroughly documented that they have praticed the greatest campaign in our history for secrecy, hidden government, and hidden illegal actions, also, Unconstitutional actions, anti-American actions. They have lied throughout, about what they were doing, and, we must all remember that Republicans assisted their illegal actions throughout, and worked to cover up their incompetence and lies.

It is also important to never forget that Republicans sold arms to Iran, propped up Saddam, armed the Taliban, the contras, Iraq insurgents, bin Laden, and hence al Qaeda, and Republicans pardoned their fellow Republicans who committed these failed, defeating and illegal policies. Republicans have blocked every attempt to cut funds for this illegal war, or to hold the corrupt Iraqi government to any standard which could have saved countless American and Iraqi lives, and failed, also to require any accountability regarding their obstruction of Justice, and war crimes.

The result is that while George Bush will force this nation to continue on this failed path of national self destruction, and loss of life and treasure in Iraq, he could never have gotten away with his incompetence and lies without the support of the Republicans in the Congress and the Senate, and those foolish Republican citizens who have voted for him twice, and in spite of the many faceted failures of the Republican Hawks, those same sheep will go out and vote for his cohort, John McCain, a man who would insure more McPolicy for failure, and waste.

While we dissenters will be bashed for stating what every informed and reasonable American knows is true, we can never be victims, only proud patriots, for only through dissent can our democracy survive attempts to turn our democracy into imperialism, radicalism, dictatorship.

It is important, therefore, that we never overlook the proven fact that every horrendous leader in history has had his sheep, his supporters, and always, they were not the informed segment of the society, but always the deniers of reality. Some things never change.

My name, also, has been used over on AZB, by several from here, who also post there, so I'm told. It has no affect on me, since those who have done so have been among the sheep who still deny that this fiasco in Iraq is a failure, and deny that Bush lied us into this war, had a hidden agenda, has broken law after law, and that his involvement with the oil industry has played no role in his foreign policies, nor required secrecy to cover up the administration's energy policy meetings. Only an idiot would maintain such a point of view, given the vast proof which is, and has been, available throughout the going on eight years of this failed, deceitful administration.

Unfortunately, we cannot bring back those who have died in the midst of the Bush Administration's illegal occupation of Iraq, the chaos, lies, hidden government, hidden agendas, and supreme incompetence, but we can take action to prevent further loss of life and treasure resulting from Republican policies. The well documented, and obvious misjudgements, unrealistic suppositions, skewing of intelligence, which the Republican Party is now, and forever, linked, can only be ended by keeping them out of the White House.

From Nixon, to Ford, and throughout Reagan, and Bush, one and two, lies about their international policies, and pardons of those who broke our laws, have been their legacies. The results have led us to this point of no win repercussions. Iraq is still lost to any celebration of success. The "Surge" has failed, and it was doomed before it began. War is no longer an acceptable solution for the problems of the world, or a slumping economy, and only the most radical among us could still believe that war is ever the correct action absent a real and pressing danger. When our entire planet can be blown to smitherines in one day, and it is suffering and dying from pollution, use of fossile fuels, chemicals, overfishing of our oceans, global warming, caused somewhat by over population, it is long past time to save the planet, remove the religious doctrines which fly against the efforts of a zero population global policy, and come to terms with the true threats to human survival,.... nuclear arms, dirty air and water, and global climate change.

I think it is obvious, given their history, that Republicans, and their bottom line philosophy of using war to pump up the economy, and and their statments and actions of abandoning, hiding and denying the real and pressing threats to our planet, in the interests of the corporate bottom line, can never be leaders in addressing the pressing threats that our planet faces at this time, nor will they use those challenges to change our energy policies in order to provide the jobs of the future, and save the planet in the process. No, they will deny the illness of our planet, and let it die, in order the keep the bulk of our treasure, in the tight, filthy, grubbbing little fists of the wealthy few, the corporate fascist pigs of the militray industrial complex, which cannot survive without the slaughter of the youth of the middle class, in un-necessary, illegal wars and occupations, which in the end, create more global chaos and more grudges between the nations of the world, and hence a greater desire by each of them to procure nuclear weaponry.

There is nothing which compliments me more than to be attacked over my ideology by someone from the nutty 28%! I encourage you to experience those attacks as the huge compliments which they truly are. You may not be liked by some for doing so, throughout, but you will have been right all along.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Gayle in MD
04-03-2008, 07:50 AM
LOL, it was the sheepies who supported Stalin, and Hitler,and no American President in our history, nor Vice President, has been so consistantly compared to Stalin and Hitler, as has George Bush, hence, he cannot walk out onto the ball field without the whole statium booing him!

Same ol' reverse and antithetical arguments as the sheep always apply. They are the ones who would have been supporting history's former dictators, as has been documented in study after study, and was referenced in my earlier post.

Once again, the no-where man, gets no-where!

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tired.gifZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Gayle in MD
04-03-2008, 08:36 AM
Unfortunately, such a statistic would not include any apptitude for common sense, without which, fewer decisions turn out to have been correct. Doing what works, is a good sign of having common sense. Results of predictions, are the proof of accurate judgements. Under those circumstances, it's hard to glue together any justification for the Bush policies, or the Republicans who protected them, and bought into them.

Fighting al Qaeda, and terrorism, for example, which we know is in many countries in the world, has never been centered in Iraq, for example, regardless of what anyone says about it, Bush, or bin Laden.

Using small units of Special Forces to flush them out and kill them where they live, organize, plan, train, and enlist their followers, is, and always was, the only realistic, effective way of fighting al Qaeda, and terrorism.

Survaillence of their Mosques, training centers, and the training and positioning of our own infiltrators, would have been far more effective than spying on Americans, or occupying Iraq, for example.

All of George Bush's desperate and decietful attempts to use the 9/11 attack for his own hiddden agenda, and personal family grudges, and setting out to scare Americans into believing that Iraq was involved with bin Laden, and Saddam involved in 9/11, and was a real and present danger, have since been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to have been intentional lies, which were unsupported by our own intelligence. Many people with college degress bought into the lies, including me, originally.

Emotionally immature, authoritarian loving, radical ideologists, often hold college degrees. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily provide them with reasonable views.

A college degree is a very valuable asset, but not a reliable insurance for good judgement, nor a valuable substitute for common sense, IMO.

The decision to think, is the hallmark of maturity. Blind followers, too often, don't make that decision. Group think, is the antithesis of critical judgement. Emotional intelligence is just as important intellectual intelligence. People who have it don't take anything at face value. When all is said and done, only the facts hold up in the end. The suspention of critical judgement on the basis of political affiliation, is not the American Way. What has made this country great, is the right of it's citizens to dissent, and speak their minds. An Administration which slanders and ruins those who endeavor to do so, is far from patriotic. A politician which resorts to spreading slanderous lies about his opponent, is nothing more than a thug, as far as I'm concerned.

When I watched the Bush Campaign's attacks on John McCain, a former POW, I knew that those people were trash. Everything they've done since has only proven to me that my original take on them was correct. Karl Rove, and George Bush, are pigs, as far as I'm concerned. When I read about what they did to Anne Richards, in Texas, I never respected them after that. One thing I can say for Bush Sr., he threw Karl Rove out of his campaign because he was more of a statesman than his son could ever be. In fact, his son isn't good enough to lick his father's boots, as far as I'm concerned, in spite of his efforts to skip over his own father, and use Ronald Reagan's tephlon inspired popularity. Reagan was easily liked, and got away with plenty because of it, and being a good actor, didn't hurt, but he, too, like Bush 1, did have some class, and would draw the line when it came to total filthy tactics. This administration believes the end justifies the means, regardless of the costs. They all have degrees.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

hondo
04-03-2008, 09:58 AM
Excellent post, Gayle.
Really good to see you posting again.

wolfdancer
04-03-2008, 10:00 AM
Gayle, you're in rare form today /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif
Interesting article that you quoted!!
Me voting for a Hitler/Stalin ticket???...no, actually I voted for Gore, then Kerry.
Some folks are just jealous because Al invented both the internet and global warming, while Bush only invented this war.

Deeman3
04-03-2008, 11:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gayle, you're in rare form today /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif
Interesting article that you quoted!!
Me voting for a Hitler/Stalin ticket???...no, actually I voted for Gore, then Kerry.
Some folks are just jealous because Al invented both the internet and global warming, while Bush only invented this war. </div></div>

Don't forget Hillary's brave battle under sniper fire. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r
04-03-2008, 12:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a quick temper, but it's in response to the fact that while I reserve my contempt for this admin, all I see in reply are personal insults....and to aggravate matters,I'm supposed to be afraid of some ****(I'm trying not to add in my own insults)</div></div> I would hate to put words in your mouth, so let me ask, are you implying I am the only person that has typed an insult? I hope you don't live in a glass house.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for Hondo not acting his age, and being the instigator....I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you there. I've read a few of lww's posts, concerning this board over on AZB, and think they should be reported back here</div></div> Why? Do you honestly think those of us over here have no idea he is on the other forum. I have yet to see anyone ask what he is saying on that board so that means we don't really care, or already know the type of person he is.

Now, maybe you are right, maybe some here on the board are being blindsided by lww and have never heard of him before and have no idea what AZ is, BUT, why is there a need to constantly start threads like this? Hondo, just wants to stir up crap, no more or less.

eg8r

eg8r
04-03-2008, 12:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, Wolfie. Eg got jealous over the brouha Dub created and blamed me.
</div></div> Jealous of what? Don't you remember me trying to help him in the beginning. I blame you because it is your fault and you admitted it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suggest he put me on ignore and then he won't have to concern
himself with anything I say.</div></div> How will that help you act your age?

eg8r

Bobbyrx
04-03-2008, 02:40 PM
Quote Gayle in MD: When I watched the Bush Campaign's attacks on John McCain, a former POW, I knew that those people were trash. Everything they've done since has only proven to me that my original take on them was correct.

If "those people were trash" because of their attacks on "John McCain, a former POW", then what should we think of someone who attacks "John McCain, a former POW" with these jewels:

"He's too old, and since he has shown signs of his lack of mental sharness all along"

"McCain, is so senile, he has to stand there and wait when the teleprompter malfunctions, and he is known for being unbalanced, and flying into rages, and being an all round prick in general."

"McCain, is plum nuts, and even his own party talks about his temper."

"McCain is senile. Just what we need!" !!!this could be a good bumper sticker!!

".....yet another tool of the military industrial complex running the show, John McCain, bilking all of us for another four years."

Deeman3
04-03-2008, 02:52 PM
Bobby,

Now that Hillary has said only she and McCain can run the country and now that we have found out how she "sees" situations (Gunfire, ducking and runnning for cover, Sir Edmond Hillary and Chelsea standing among the ruins of the World Trade Center) I guess old John McCain is not nearly as senile as the competition. If you worry about his age, check out his mother still spry and supporting him at the tender age of 96!

I could just tell the left was visably shaken by the treatment Senator McCain was getting at the hands of Bush a few years ago. I know they felt his pain. Surely, they would not stoop to the same thing? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Looks like Hillary is still considering Obama as her number two guy, despite not paying her staff's health care premiums and fading her advertising bills. With all those mean men now picking on her, the treasury will surely swell before Pennsylviania in a couple of weeks. I, for one, am happy the left is pointing out all this abuse of McCain. I'm sure he'll be thrilledwith their support in November. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

hondo
04-03-2008, 03:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"></div></div> How will that help you act your age?

eg8r </div></div>


If you have me on ignore why should you care how I act? What's it to you?

hondo
04-03-2008, 03:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bobbyrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quote Gayle in MD: When I watched the Bush Campaign's attacks on John McCain, a former POW, I knew that those people were trash. Everything they've done since has only proven to me that my original take on them was correct.

If "those people were trash" because of their attacks on "John McCain, a former POW", then what should we think of someone who attacks "John McCain, a former POW" with these jewels:

"He's too old, and since he has shown signs of his lack of mental sharness all along"

"McCain, is so senile, he has to stand there and wait when the teleprompter malfunctions, and he is known for being unbalanced, and flying into rages, and being an all round prick in general."

"McCain, is plum nuts, and even his own party talks about his temper."

"McCain is senile. Just what we need!" !!!this could be a good bumper sticker!!

".....yet another tool of the military industrial complex running the show, John McCain, bilking all of us for another four years."

</div></div>


???????????????? Which of those quotes do you dispute?

hondo
04-03-2008, 03:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, Wolfie. Eg got jealous over the brouha Dub created and blamed me.
</div></div> Jealous of what? Don't you remember me trying to help him in the beginning.

eg8r </div></div>


Hey, Dub, be honest. Do you remember Eg trying to help you in the beginning? I must have missed that. LMFAO.

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 03:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bobby,

Now that Hillary has said only she and McCain can run the country and now that we have found out how she "sees" situations (Gunfire, ducking and runnning for cover, Sir Edmond Hillary and Chelsea standing among the ruins of the World Trade Center) I guess old John McCain is not nearly as senile as the competition. If you worry about his age, check out his mother still spry and supporting him at the tender age of 96!

I could just tell the left was visably shaken by the treatment Senator McCain was getting at the hands of Bush a few years ago. I know they felt his pain. Surely, they would not stoop to the same thing? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Looks like Hillary is still considering Obama as her number two guy, despite not paying her staff's health care premiums and fading her advertising bills. With all those mean men now picking on her, the treasury will surely swell before Pennsylviania in a couple of weeks. I, for one, am happy the left is pointing out all this abuse of McCain. I'm sure he'll be thrilledwith their support in November. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

</div></div>

Deeman, I, for one, admire your response and the way it was presented. Well done! However, you are really treading shark-infested waters here and you should be aware that after a post like that you must be on the verge of being "ignored" or sending other part-time "participants" back on sabbatical. Just reminding you to watch where you are stepping. For some of us it is too late and we are already knee deep in it and barefoot!

hondo
04-03-2008, 03:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now, maybe you are right, maybe some here on the board are being blindsided by lww and have never heard of him before and have no idea what AZ is, BUT, why is there a need to constantly start threads like this? Hondo, just wants to stir up crap, no more or less.

eg8r </div></div>

One last comment and I'll let this go.
Why do you care so much about what I post?
What's it to you? You stir up crap all the
time on here, attacking what others believe.
Why so obsessed with me?
I usually leave your posts alone even though I think they're largely nonsense, the inane ramblings of certifiable wingnut.
I only respond to you when you attack me which is about once a month.
If you have a problem with me, put me on ignore.
Then you won't have to worry about me acting the way you
assume I should act.

hondo
04-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Well, I,for one, worship the quicksand you conservatives walk on and would never put any of you on ignore.

Bobbyrx
04-03-2008, 03:22 PM
What I dispute is not the point...you see the point...we righties do it too but it's so much more fun to catch someone else doing it /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Deeman3
04-03-2008, 03:22 PM
I'll slink back and mend my ways....

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 03:38 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, Wolfie. Eg got jealous over the brouha Dub created and blamed me.
</div></div> Jealous of what? Don't you remember me trying to help him in the beginning.

eg8r </div></div>


Hey, Dub, be honest. Do you remember Eg trying to help you in the beginning? I must have missed that. LMFAO. </div></div>

I do remember Ed coming to the defense of Wolf and others vs LWW early on. And, he wasn't the only "conservative" on here that did so.

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 03:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I,for one, worship the quicksand you conservatives walk on and would never put any of you on ignore. </div></div>
Of course you don't want to ignore us. If you find a tick on you what do you do? Pick it off immediately, or let him bloat and then send him on his merry way. I prefer to leave the tick on and let it bloat, then pick it off, step on it, and watch it explode....like a catsup package!

Quicksand? Funny!

wolfdancer
04-03-2008, 04:29 PM
Ed, you might add an insult, or two, into your posts, on occasion...but it was lww that I was referring to.
As for his posts on AZB....I don't go over there because of his boasting about how he has put everybody down here in the "minor leagues"...etc, etc.
To be honest, I have him on ignore, and regret even having to mention him.

hondo
04-03-2008, 04:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, Wolfie. Eg got jealous over the brouha Dub created and blamed me.
</div></div> Jealous of what? Don't you remember me trying to help him in the beginning.

eg8r </div></div>


Hey, Dub, be honest. Do you remember Eg trying to help you in the beginning? I must have missed that. LMFAO. </div></div>

I do remember Ed coming to the defense of Wolf and others vs LWW early on. And, he wasn't the only "conservative" on here that did so. </div></div>


I thought he was saying that he came to Dub's defense??
Maybe I misread.

hondo
04-03-2008, 04:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I,for one, worship the quicksand you conservatives walk on and would never put any of you on ignore. </div></div>
Of course you don't want to ignore us. If you find a tick on you what do you do? Pick it off immediately, or let him bloat and then send him on his merry way. I prefer to leave the tick on and let it bloat, then pick it off, step on it, and watch it explode....like a catsup package!

Quicksand? Funny! </div></div>

LOL! Good grief that was a disgusting analogy!

hondo
04-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Mention who? What? Where?

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 09:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I,for one, worship the quicksand you conservatives walk on and would never put any of you on ignore. </div></div>
Of course you don't want to ignore us. If you find a tick on you what do you do? Pick it off immediately, or let him bloat and then send him on his merry way. I prefer to leave the tick on and let it bloat, then pick it off, step on it, and watch it explode....like a catsup package!

Quicksand? Funny! </div></div>

LOL! Good grief that was a disgusting analogy! </div></div>

Thank you! I was rather proud of it!

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 09:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, Wolfie. Eg got jealous over the brouha Dub created and blamed me.
</div></div> Jealous of what? Don't you remember me trying to help him in the beginning.

eg8r </div></div>


Hey, Dub, be honest. Do you remember Eg trying to help you in the beginning? I must have missed that. LMFAO. </div></div>

I do remember Ed coming to the defense of Wolf and others vs LWW early on. And, he wasn't the only "conservative" on here that did so. </div></div>


I thought he was saying that he came to Dub's defense??
Maybe I misread. </div></div>

Pretty sure I'm correct. He came to the whole group's defense when he thought LWW had gone too far, etc. That's my recollection anyway......but senility may be nearer than I think!

Gayle in MD
04-04-2008, 10:15 AM
Eg, Eg, Eg, Wolf, above all others here, displays a much greater ability to maintain his sense of humor. To accuse him of having a short fuse, is unfair, IMO.

It's time for you to admit that you constantly call others here liars when their statements are true statements.

I once stated that I have little concern about the thoughts of others, particularly regarding their opinions of me, when they display a consistant attitude of denying things which have been proven beyond question.

The fact that Bush lied to us about the need to occupy Iraq, is a fact, and there is plenty of proof that he knew he was lying when he did so.

The fact that incompetence, corruption, lies, and denials of of true circumstances of this war, and the damage it has brought to our country, by Bush, Cheney and Rice, is also a fact.

The fact that this administration has used this war as a means to acquire oil contracts for their oil buddies, another fact.

The fact that they have mistreated our troops in a way which they have never before been treated in war time, cannot be denied, another fact.

The many laws they have broken, have been documented, over and over, as have their efforts to secure more power than our founders ever intended the executive office to have.

It is a fact that Republicans have nixed every attempt made by the Democrats to hold the corrupt Iraqi Government to any kind of benchmarks, and hence, promoted more casualties, more deaths, more Iraqi war refugees, more pointless losses of everything from life and treasure, to American credibility and allies, and also strengthened our enemies in the process.

It is a fact that Bush has continually changed the mission, the mission statement, and raised the bar on the mission throughout.

It is a fact that climate change is being affected by overpopulation, use of fossile fuels, and that the world is at risk as a result, and this administration has worked to hide the scientific studies which prove that.

It is a fact that they pay people to write glowing lies of success in Iraq in newspapers, and it is a fact that their tax cuts advantage the wealthiest Americans more than any other segment of our society.

When people, like yourself, call others who state these facts, liars, only a saint could avoid ever getting angry over such accusations.

This administration has built the biggest federal work force, EVER! The greatest Federal budget, EVER! The greatest federal deficit, EVER! The greatest national debt, EVER! The greates trade deficits, EVER! And, they have been the most fiscally irresponsible administration in history.

In short, while Republicans always frame their policies as fiscally responsible, they never are. While they promise no nation building, and a non intervention foreign policy, they never keep that promise. While they state they are all for State's rights, their Terry Scheivo actions, and their fight to prevent a recount in the 2000 election, prove them to be liars. Their fight to outlaw medical THC, on the federal leval, proves them to be against states rights. Their efforts to prevent States from deciding their own stance on abortion, further provides proof that they lie about what they believe, and when they are in office, they do exactly the opposite of what they promise in the election cycle.

Their failure to respond to the needs of We The People, over and over, from Katrina, to Walter Reed, to the mortgage fiasco, bailing out only the corporate fascists, who were the culprits who created it, and stuffed their take in their greedy corrupt pockets, while abandoning those who were most taken advantage of, is obvious.

They promise a more moral government, with respect for Constitutionally limited Chief Executive, but deliver unprecedented corruption, Borrowing, Spending, debt, foreign disaster, and abuse of executive power.

I suggest you read up on the number of Republicans who are either in jail, or on their way to jail. Then do a study of corporate retirement packages for oil executives, and corporate profits, and note that we the people have been paying for their unprecedented profits, subsidizing them, and getting nothing in return but the opportunity to be gouged at the pumps, while folks like you maintain that you believe in personal responsibility, for all, except the corporate fascist pigs.

As long as there are people from the right who insist on denying facts which are easily accessable to all Americans, those same righties should not expect to be experienced with any respect. It is time for you righties to digest the fact that 81% of Americans believe that this country is going in the wrong direction, and 69% say they are worse off now than they were at the end of the Clinton Administration, which BTW, was known for building a Federal emergency Response agency, FEMA, into an agency which was labeled as the very best agency in Washington D.C.

When the founders framed our government to have a unitary executive, they didn't mean an executive office which one person could operate outside the law, in hidden meetings, and hidden agendas, trashing our constitutional rights, and the law of the land, for the sake of Imperial Tyranny.

Insulting those who speak the truth, does not provide you with credibility, it only makes you look uninformed, which you are, if you continue to deny what has been proven.

Six billion dollars to bail out home builders, and more to bail out the corrupt mortgage industry, which caused this mess, yet you attack those Americans who are hard working people who were exploited by predatory lending practices, and are against giving them any help.

I am proud to be a liberal! Our philosophy is pay-go, it is Open mind, Open Heart, Open hand. A liberal is someone who believes that people are all that is important, and all people are equally important.

You are watching the end of the conservative revolution. And, while I'm quite sure if you vote, it will be for the biggest flip flopper on the hill, John McCain, a hawk who will have American blood flowing in the Middle East for decades, a former POW, who backed off his stand against torture in order to secure the backing of the Bush tyranny Machine, a man who allowed George Bush to slander his own wife, and child, and then hugged him later, when it was politically advantageous, just don't expect or anticipate that John McCain will be the next president. Fortunately, 81% of Americans absorb facts, and do not give a flying **** what the nutty right says about them, or their views.

Now you can devise your usual personal attack against my intellect, and intentions, but it certainly won't phase my committment to speaking the truith, wirting the truth, and doing everything I can do to get our young people out of this illegal, illogical, pointless, devastating and un-necessary occupation of Iraq, a country which had no WMD's, no connections to 9/11, or bin Laden, and which has nearly put our country into the dumpster, THANK YOU GEORGE BUSH, DICK CHENEY, CONDOLEZZA RICE, and all the so called religious, geniuses who voted for them twice, and still haven't seen the light. Nothing is funnier than reading a post written by a rightie which suggest that the Democrats Campaign is a dying cause, as our country faces financial disaster and ruin after these years of Republican lies, incompetence, and corruption. That is an excellent example of a rightie living in a dreamworld! Dream on righties! It is over, and not a moment too soon! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Oh, and one other thing, the right should be very relieved that they aren't being mowed down in the streets of this country for their persistant fog of denial. Unlike Nixon, we don't shoot people who demonstrate against our beliefs. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Gayle in MD
04-04-2008, 10:33 AM
Since 81 % of Americans, (that's right, the greatest number since the great depression) think that Bush has this country going in the wrong direction, and 69% say they are worse off than they were at the end of Clinton's administration, I'd say that it is clear that the man who has recieved the Nobel Peace Prize, and who won the 2000 election, would not have left our country in this mess.

Nothing is funnier than listening and reading the Republican predictions these days.

This will be an election that turns this country on a dime. people are sick and tired of Republican debt, Republican lies, Republican tyrany, Republican abuse of power, Republican trashing of our laws and Constitution, and Republican corruption and incompetence.

Anyone who thinks that the big story will be about two Democratic candidates playing Politics as usual, and that John McCain will reap any gains from it, after eight years of total chaos and failure, is not playing with a full deck!

But then we knew that! BWA HA HA HA...

Hey, did you hear about McCain's financial interests in the corporate (war profiteering) fascists in Iraq?

Wonder how long it will take the right to absorb that this war is a civil war, and that this country is in a recession?

Hey, we should start a ganbling web site. We could call it the wheel of misfortune, and let people vote on how long it takes righties to digest reality! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Yeah, that's the ticket! WE can track how long it takes them to admit that global warming is real, and is caused by human beings. Or, how long it takes them to admit that Iraq is such a colossal mess that we can't even get our people out of there.

Did you watch the Senate hearings on the war? The prognosis is FUBAR, FUBAR, and MORE FUBAR, regardless of what we do, it's lost, but we knew that!

Later, when I have time, I'll write the entire interview of Michael Ware on CNN. Man, my highschool shorthand has really gotten good since Bush has been ruining our country. He has probably saved me from ever having Alzsheimers (sp)disease. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

Love,
Gayle

LWW
04-04-2008, 10:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LWW must be laughing his butt off right now at this thread topic.</div></div>
Nahhhh...

...I did that on day 1 of the thread.

LWW

LWW
04-04-2008, 10:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is it so hard for you to figure out that it does not matter what LWW says on AZ? No one cares and he does not have a following over here so there is no reason to care. You just want to start another fight because you got bored again and wanted to ruffle some feathers.

eg8r </div></div>
1 - houndo cares or he wouldn't have started the thread.

2 - If I have no follwing here then how do you explain that a passing comment made a month ago on AZB started a 50 post thread here?

3 - I know houndo is baiting a fight.

LWW

Gayle in MD
04-04-2008, 11:08 AM
FYI, George Bush slandered McCain's wife, and child. My statements about McCain, usually include something praising his service, although his mental problems cannot be overlooked when he is attempting to take over the helm AND RUN this country.

Any man who would hug and kiss another man who slandered his own wife and child, I cannot admire. An American can appreciate his service to our country, but that does not give him an accountability bye, for the rest of his life. The things that the Bush/Rove attack machine said about Anne Richards and John McCain, when he was campaigning in both in Texas, and in the presidential campaigns, were among the most common statements I've ever heard. Politics has always been a dirty business, but George Bush changed it into filthy dirty business.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quote Gayle in MD: When I watched the Bush Campaign's attacks on John McCain, a former POW, I knew that those people were trash. Everything they've done since has only proven to me that my original take on them was correct.

<span style="color: #000099">This statement should come as no surprise to you, or anyone else. Why would I change my opinion about Bush, after he has proven everything I've ever said about him was true, including the way he used the religious right for his political purposes. </span>

If "those people were trash" because of their attacks on "John McCain, a former POW", then what should we think of someone who attacks "John McCain, a former POW" with these jewels: <span style="color: #000066">My statements about John McCain are true. You should think that I'm paying close attention to him, since he is running for president. Perhaps, you should do the same!</span>

"He's too old, and since he has shown signs of his lack of mental sharness all along"

<span style="color: #000066">Again, a correct statement. he has flubbed up every speech he's made, including confusing Iran and Iraq, and Shiite with al Qaeda. He's either dumb, or senile. I think I was being kind. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif </span>

"McCain, is so senile, he has to stand there and wait when the teleprompter malfunctions, and he is known for being unbalanced, and flying into rages, and being an all round prick in general."
<span style="color: #000066">aGain, I stand by those statements. It is well documented that he is known for his rages, and I happen to know enough people on the Hill to know just how bad they are. </span>
"McCain, is plum nuts, and even his own party talks about his temper."

<span style="color: #000066">Again, a true statement. Perhaps you only watch fox? </span>

"McCain is senile. Just what we need!" !!!this could be a good bumper sticker!!

<span style="color: #000066">That's right, and I may have some of them printed up. Atleast Reagan had Nancy, to wisper to him what he should say. Atleast Nancy Reagan had a quick mind. I don't think McCain's wife is the brightes bulb on the tree, however, I don't believe that she was really a drug addict, as Bush said. </span>

".....yet another tool of the military industrial complex running the show, John McCain, bilking all of us for another four years." </div></div>

<span style="color: #000066">I suggest you do a search on McCain's financial interests in the War profiteering pigs that are stealing from we AMericans daily, compliments of the Administration.

Just because a man served in a war, and had the misfortune of being captured, does not make his qualified to run this country. I can feel sorry for him for what happened to him, but lets not forget, it wasn't something he volunteered to do, be capture and tortured, and having said that, what do you think about the way he backed off his own legislation against torture in order to acquire George Bush's blessing of his campaign? That did it for me. Whatever respect I ever had for him as a Senator, was gone forever when he did that. He has flip flopped on everything, from his former stance against against Falwell and Roberts, to providing assistance to our veterans, to abortion, and spying on Americans. I could go on, but for what. Apparently you don't research presidential candidates very closely, obviously, you voted for Bush. </span>

Gayle in MD
04-04-2008, 11:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now that Hillary has said only she and McCain can run the country and now that we have found out how she "sees" situations (Gunfire, ducking and runnning for cover, Sir Edmond Hillary and Chelsea standing among the ruins of the World Trade Center) I guess old John McCain is not nearly as senile as the competition. <span style="color: #000066">Gee, I thought being aware of which country al Qaeda is affiliated with was pretty bad for a man who is running his whole campaign on foreign affairs, especially since he's already stated that he doesn't know anything about economics. Why would anyone vote for hik,, just because he was a tortured prisoner of war, after he turned his back on his own legislation against other soldiers being put at risk of the same treatment, backing off his own anti-torture bill? Anyway, I though Hillary was lying, right? That doesn't require senility. </span> If you worry about his age, check out his mother still spry and supporting him at the tender age of 96! <span style="color: #000066">Not a good comparison, I'm afraid, since women live longer than men, and we all know after watching Hillary, that they're much tougher than men, and have far more endurance. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </span>

I could just tell the left was visably shaken by the treatment Senator McCain was getting at the hands of Bush a few years ago. I know they felt his pain. Surely, they would not stoop to the same thing? <span style="color: #000066">What they did had nothing to do with the recipient, it was a dirty filthy thing to say ab out anyone, and, btw, back then, I had a lot of respect for John McCain. he's changed a great deal since then, IMO. </span>

Looks like Hillary is still considering Obama as her number two guy, despite not paying her staff's health care premiums and fading her advertising bills. <span style="color: #000066">hey Deeman, keep me up on this, I thought that had already been proven to be a lie. Her Campaign director, and her PR lady stated they had no outstanding bills. I'd guess if they had lied about it those rumors would have been proven by the un-identified sources?</span> With all those mean men now picking on her, the treasury will surely swell before Pennsylviania in a couple of weeks. I, for one, am happy the left is pointing out all this abuse of McCain. I'm sure he'll be thrilledwith their support in November. </div></div>

<span style="color: #000066">Dear friend, brace yourself. I know this will shock you, but I'm not voting for McCain. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif While I wish him all the best in his private life, it would be a disaster if he were to win the election. The last thing this country needs is another neocon, pseudo-conservative hawk, who is loosing it, with a blond wife... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</span>

Love,
Gayle

Deeman3
04-04-2008, 12:27 PM
Gayle,

Of course after voting for Hillary in the Alabama primary, I had hoped to have her as the opposition in the general. However, after the recent revelations about Obama's pastor w/links to support of Jew hater Farrokan (in while I initially defended Obama) I now see that Jimmy Carter is going to throw his support behind Obama. I consider this the death nell to Obama's candidacy and now will supporet Hillary in the hopes Mccain can eek out a win against her. While nearly inept in office, Carter has gone from being the best ex-president to an America hater even beyond Rev Wright.

I do agree that Hillary will be the lesser of two extream evils now and will ask anyone who will not consider McCain to help us defeat Obama. As he has virtually gotten away scott free with the association with Wright, I think he night have a shot at being elected and that is a chance none of us should be willing to take. Besides, Bill will be there to answer the phone anyway at 3:00a.m.

NO, I do beleive you and the others that Hillary is not having a cash flow problem as will become evident when and if she really releases her tax records. Of course, she has to wait until the election on the Democratic side is decided or risk exposing China and big business.

I agree Hillary si tough, you don't survive dodging bullets and ducking for cover without some memory loss! Add tho this Billy said she tried unsuccessfully to volunteer for the Army (she said Marine Corps) after graduating from law school all the while under cover on the Watergate hearings and pretending to attend anti-war marches. Wow, if Senator Sam had only known!

I am very anxious to see the "pay-as-we-go" system she will propose. That will be a mean trick on top of reversing the Bush tax cuts, socialized "Free" medicine. However, I do have to admit that the cheap oil supply she will insure for us might make up the difference as she abandons Iraq to popular applause.

Gayle in MD
04-04-2008, 01:06 PM
lol, I just hope when that phone rings, it won't be answered by McCain, singing... Bomb, Bomb, Bomb-Bomb Iran!

Hillary was pretty funny on Jay Leno's show, she said she almost didn't get there, due to sniper attacks. It was good to see her making a joke on herself.

I don't know if I posted about this, but an Iraq Vet, who shoots in my league, real nice young man, has been filling me in on lots about Iraq. He's very disillusioned about the war, and his fiance' works on the Hill, for the National Adoption Coalition, a real sweetheart, both of whom I'm very fond of. She told me that her organization has only one Senator they know will come through for them, regardless of what help they need, and that's Hillary.

I do believe that Hillary is genuine, and has always worked for single mothers and for children. Even biographies which were written by the Hillary haters, support her claims of working for single Moms, orphans, and children of poverty.

I wish she could win the election, because I believe she would be the best president of those we have from which to make our choice. Although, I don't think that is likely, I am still making phone calls for her campaign, and contrubuting what I can afford.

I will be very disappointed if either Barrack, or McCain, should win. I don't think Barrack has enough experience, and I don't trust McCain's judgement, at all, and wonder why he has refused to release his medical reports. I truly don't think McCain has a chance, due to many of his views, particularly about Iraq.

Just a thought, I didn't think any of the medicine programs discussed included "Free" medical, just cheaper, and based on greater numbers, for a better deal. Hillary stated that she intended to use the same coverage as the Congress provides. I can't see why they should have a more reasonable program than the rest of us. However, any money that we can keep here, instead of wasting it in Iraq, to benefit Iraqis, instead of our own people, will be a huge improvment over what we've been doing, IMO.

With atleast 80,000 more jobs lost already this month, and the Fed trying to ease us into the reality of this recession, and our increasing debt, and bleak economic future, and with compounding interest on our debt, and Corporate American being subsidized for out-sourcing our jobs, as big oil gouges us and slurps up our tax dollars for what advantage, I don't know. But, I can't see why Americans should get some of our tax dollars back to benefit those of us who are paying them, instead of using it all on the Iraqi's, and bailing out the corporate fascists sub-prime thieves. We can bail out auto manufacturers, airlines, corrupt mortgage and finance banks and mortgage bundlers, and the homebuilders, but not the struggling American Middle Class Workers? I can't see the logic in that. This mortgage mess was nothing but a premeditated swindle by the same wealthy pigs who get their billions by bilking the average guy and gal, who work hard for their money. It was exploitation at its worst, IMO, and they should have let them crash and burn for what they did to this country. No fudiciary conscience at all.

Ah well, My Robin is back. I'm happy, well fed, and very lucky to be living in a house that is worth much more than I paid for it, but not all of my fellow Americans have been as fortunate as I. I'd like to see our country take care of their own, for a change, instead of poiring our money into the samds of the Middle East, where we will never have loyal allies, and where they hold their grudges for eternity. If this mess was supposed to give us the edge on the oil market, it's been a total failure.

Love,
Gayle

Deeman3
04-04-2008, 01:51 PM
I really hope you are at least partially right on all of this. If she were to be elected, I'd give her my full support if she really tried to make things better, not just better for her politically. I would give her a fair assessment of ehr efforts.

Gayle in MD
04-05-2008, 10:10 AM
I believe you. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

wolfdancer
04-05-2008, 12:07 PM
It's nice to see two people with opposite political beliefs, discussing politics, without the "mud-slinging" that has become so prevalent here, courtesy of .....(no name)
I'm also surprised ...(no name) hasn't taken the opportunity to add in the usual juvenile insults, that he believes enhances his stature.

hondo
04-05-2008, 01:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is it so hard for you to figure out that it does not matter what LWW says on AZ? No one cares and he does not have a following over here so there is no reason to care. You just want to start another fight because you got bored again and wanted to ruffle some feathers.

eg8r </div></div>
1 - houndo cares or he wouldn't have started the thread.

2 - If I have no follwing here then how do you explain that a passing comment made a month ago on AZB started a 50 post thread here?

3 - I know houndo is baiting a fight.

LWW </div></div>

1.Thanks. I appreciate your support.
2. 50 posts in support of me, not you.
And I'm truly touched.
3.Why the name-calling, though?
Really seems beneath you.
4. I think you're significant, LWW.
But, then again, I have a wart on my ass that I think is significant, also.

eg8r
04-05-2008, 07:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If I have no follwing here then how do you explain that a passing comment made a month ago on AZB started a 50 post thread here?</div></div> All my posts were about hondo so minus them out of the 50. While you are at it, go read a few more and tell me how many were about you?

eg8r

Qtec
04-05-2008, 10:12 PM
The reason Christian extremist America [ and I mean Dobson, Falwell, Hagee; the AFA, Focus on the Family, etc etc] doesn't like Carter or B.C is because they actually behaved like Christians.


It cracks me up when people[ who practically scream about LESS Govt in their sleep] are quite ok with Govt telling a 14 yr old kid who has just had unprotected sex that she may not interfere with the conception process.[ no Plan-B ] That if she becomes pregnant then she MUST have that baby...all because every life is precious...and in practically the same breath voice their support for Iran to be turned into glass...........etc


When I watch these Sunday Pastors on TV in their massive Churches and their $2,000 suits and their Rolex's . I keep waiting for one to bring up the old Camel and the Needle story................never happens.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. " </div></div>

The two big issues for these faith based orgs are Gays and abortion.

Jesus never mentioned either subject.

Q

LWW
04-06-2008, 06:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If I have no follwing here then how do you explain that a passing comment made a month ago on AZB started a 50 post thread here?</div></div> All my posts were about hondo so minus them out of the 50. While you are at it, go read a few more and tell me how many were about you?

eg8r </div></div>
You would lose on that one my friend ... but, you knew that.

LWW

pooltchr
04-06-2008, 06:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The two big issues for these faith based orgs are Gays and abortion.

Jesus never mentioned either subject.

Q </div></div>

No, but God did! Read the OT.
Steve

Qtec
04-06-2008, 10:20 AM
So?

Q

wolfdancer
04-06-2008, 12:37 PM
citing something from the OT as "proof" only works if one buys into a literal meaning of the entire book....and then given the punishments recommended for the various transgressions....as Bob Dylan wrote:
"Everybody must get stoned"

wolfdancer
04-06-2008, 03:00 PM
Looks like Rocky trapped himself again...thinking the thread was mainly about and supportive of...him.
Now he is trying to deflect attention away from his delusion, by involving others...
Think he'll ever realize that no one is buying into his self importance....I doubt in reality that even he isn't?????????
Quote lww:
"I want to make sure that as many people as possible, read my important posts.."
I'm thinking as many people as possible are wondering wtf is it with this schmuck?????????????????????????????????

hondo
04-06-2008, 03:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If I have no follwing here then how do you explain that a passing comment made a month ago on AZB started a 50 post thread here?</div></div> All my posts were about hondo so minus them out of the 50. While you are at it, go read a few more and tell me how many were about you?

eg8r </div></div>
You would lose on that one my friend ... but, you knew that.

LWW </div></div>


I'll take your bet. How much?
Before you lose your ass, let me warn you. I counted.
Other than me, only one person responded to you at all and that was Eg telling you nobody pays any attention to you.
Other than that, there are 3 slight references to you.
2 by Wolfie saying he ignores you & one by Eg saying you're insignificant.
So, I repeat. How much?
Honestly, I do feel bad for you at times.
Please don't embarrass yourself like this.

wolfdancer
04-06-2008, 03:38 PM
Hey, play this song for him, will you?

I've got to stop mentioning that I am ignoring him, because even that implies that I believe he is "somebody".

eg8r
04-06-2008, 05:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So?</div></div> You crack me up. You make a stupid statement that means nothing and then pooltchr explains it for you and all you have in response is "So?". You are a true lefty. Make a stupid statement that means nothing and then try to side step it.

eg8r

eg8r
04-06-2008, 06:00 PM
LOL, your ego is astounding.

eg8r

Qtec
04-07-2008, 02:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So?</div></div> You crack me up. You make a stupid statement that means nothing and then pooltchr explains it for you and all you have in response is "So?". You are a true lefty. Make a stupid statement that means nothing and then try to side step it.

eg8r </div></div>

pooltchr didn't explain anything.
The OT contains none of the teachings of Jesus and actually some of the ideas in it in are totally the opposite from those that Jesus taught.


eg,

The phrase "an eye for an eye", (Hebrew: עין תחת עין‎) is a quotation from Exodus 21:2327 in which a person who has taken the eye of another in a fight is instructed to give his own eye in compensation. At the root of the non-Biblical form of this principle is the belief that one of the purposes of the law is to provide equitable retaliation for an offended party. It defined and restricted the extent of retaliation. This early belief is reflected in the Code of Hammurabi and in the laws of the Hebrew Bible (e.g., Ex 21:2325, Lv 24:1820, Dt 19:21).

Lex talionis in Christianity

Christian interpretation of the biblical passage has been heavily influenced by the quotation from Leviticus (19:18 above) in Jesus of Nazareth's Sermon on the Mount. In the Expounding of the Law (part of the Sermon on the Mount), Jesus urges his followers to turn the other cheek when confronted by violence:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:3839, NRSV)




Q

wolfdancer
04-07-2008, 08:06 AM
what I got from Ed's post is that you are dumb because you are on the left side of the political spectrum. Also just mentioning the OT should suffice as an explanation for the Ungodly "left".
He made a similar remark to me when I mentioned prayer and our soldiers. I was an alter boy for a few years; might be a strayed Catholic now....but this insane belief that only the right are Christians is just that....****** insane.
All this Right wing Christians Vs the left wing heathens crap, and meanwhile we have a President that will surely rot in hell for his sins, but claims to be doing God's work!!
It goes beyond religion though...as all of society's ills supposedly belong to the left. I think "right" and "righteous" are thought to have the same meaning in the Republican lexicon.
You quoting from the OT, kind of makes his insulting post...look about as bad as Rocky's

Qtec
04-07-2008, 09:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what I got from Ed's post is that you are dumb because you are on the left side of the political spectrum. </div></div>

Nah. I'm dumb because I actually sometimes respond to his posts! LOL

Q

eg8r
04-07-2008, 10:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pooltchr didn't explain anything.
The OT contains none of the teachings of Jesus and actually some of the ideas in it in are totally the opposite from those that Jesus taught.
</div></div> He explained it perfectly, you just don't know what you are talking about.

eg8r

eg8r
04-07-2008, 10:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what I got from Ed's post is that you are dumb because you are on the left side of the political spectrum.</div></div> Thanks for proving the point about your lack of comprehension.

eg8r

wolfdancer
04-07-2008, 12:01 PM
SO.......in reply to your post to me....what else could anybody infer from this one except that as a true lefty, Q can't back up his stupid statement? ...and your proof: Steve explained it all, with a mere mention of the OT? I must have skipped school the day they taught right wing logic. I know I did because I still can't buy into your theory that lying to Congress about an extra marital affair and lying to begin a war have equal weight. In my religion we have venial sins, like Bill's and mortal sins like GWB's...and the punishment fits the crime...Bill get's off with 10 "Hail Marys" for getting off with Monica....George rots in hell for all eternity
Must have fried your ***** when he did counter that flawed reasoning.
You have a history of accusing the "other side" of being clueless and Godless..."loony left", etc.
I see all that invective in your posts; read all the idiotic, insipid statements by Rocky, and realize any discussion here is folly, with people that have placed themselves so high on the pedestal, that they then look down on, and despise others that disagree with them.
So.....you can continue you're "holier then thou" and "better then..." beliefs...I could care less what a bigot thinks of me, my politics, religion, or lack thereof.
I would point out though the inherent dangers of that intolerance....you could easily cross the line and become another
lww

bsmutz
04-07-2008, 01:11 PM
Say it ain't so, Wolfie! Not another LDubDumb! Where'd I put that razor blade?

Bobbyrx
04-07-2008, 02:25 PM
When Bush bashes him he's a war hero but when you bash him he's a mentally unstable, senile nut job......No, the point is you are doing the very same thing to McCain that you accuse Bush of doing. Of course there is no proof that the Bush campaign was behind the whisper campaign of McCain's wife being a drug addict and McCain having a black child etc and the Bush's camp denied being behind it. But if you believe he was then you have to believe that Hillary's campaign was behind the crazy guy (Larry Sinclair)on the internet that says he and Obama smoked crack together and that they were gay lovers.

Bobbyrx
04-07-2008, 02:26 PM
Sorry LWW, this was replying to Gayle...

pooltchr
04-07-2008, 05:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The two big issues for these faith based orgs are Gays and abortion.

Jesus never mentioned either subject.

Q </div></div>

Let me try to explain my comment so even a child can understand. YOU were the one to bring up the subject as quoted above. You are correct. However, the Bible is divided into two distinct areas. The OT is the time before Jesus came to live on earth. The NT is about the life and teachings of Jesus. Jesus is God in human form. (God the Son)
Now, try to follow me here.
The OT describes homosexuality as an "abomination".
The OT tells us not to Kill.
See how simple it is????
Jesus didn't have to cover those two topics. They had already been covered.
If you are going to bring the Bible into a discussion, be prepared to be challenged by someone who might have actually read it.
Steve

Qtec
04-07-2008, 06:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The two big issues for these faith based orgs are Gays and abortion.

Jesus never mentioned either subject.

Q </div></div>

Let me try to explain my comment so even a child can understand. YOU were the one to bring up the subject as quoted above. You are correct. </div></div>

So I am correct? Thank you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> However, the Bible is divided into two distinct areas. </div></div>

This is my whole point.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

[quote] The OT is the time before Jesus came to live on earth. </div></div> ie nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The NT is about the life and teachings of Jesus. Jesus is God in human form. (God the Son)
Now, try to follow me here.
The OT describes homosexuality as an "abomination".
The OT tells us not to Kill.
See how simple it is????</div></div>

So?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jesus didn't have to cover those two topics. They had already been covered.
If you are going to bring the Bible into a discussion, be prepared to be challenged by someone who might have actually read it.
Steve </div></div>

If everything 'had been covered' in the OT there would have been no reason for JC to preach.


If you had actually read the OT you would know that death and destruction are are integral theme throughout every chapter.
Cain and Able?
David and Goliath?
Sodom and Gomorrah?

Need I go on?

IMO Jesus was totally original. The OT said the messiah would free the Jews and they all expected a warrior with sword in hand. Instead they got someone who instead of saying 'kill thine enemy' he preached 'love your enemy'.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9) </div></div>


To me the message is clear.

Q

Qtec
04-07-2008, 06:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pooltchr didn't explain anything.
The OT contains none of the teachings of Jesus and actually some of the ideas in it in are totally the opposite from those that Jesus taught.
</div></div> He explained it perfectly, you just don't know what you are talking about.

eg8r </div></div>

Wow. Yet another 0.0 for content eg8r.

What did he explain and how was it perfect?

What has Jesus got to do with the OT?

Q

hondo
04-08-2008, 05:40 AM
IMO Jesus was totally original. The OT said the messiah would free the Jews and they all expected a warrior with sword in hand. Instead they got someone who instead of saying 'kill thine enemy' he preached 'love your enemy'.
.................................................. ..........
I have always wondered if one of Jesus's purpose on earth was to
repudiate some of the teachings of Yahweh and show the true
nature of God.
Of course, I'm a bit of a gnostic.
Good post, Q.

Gayle in MD
04-08-2008, 06:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Bush bashes him he's a war hero but when you bash him he's a mentally unstable, senile nut job <span style="color: #000066"> I didn't bash him at all, merely stated some well documented facts about him. B ush slandered his family, and if you don't think Karl Rove was behind it, you qualify, you definitely ARE a right wing nut job!</span> ......No, the point is you are doing the very same thing to McCain that you accuse Bush of doing. <span style="color: #000066">Not at all. I am referring to information I have known about for decades, from people who work with him, and they are both Senators, journalists and even Republicans. He is known for having a loose screw, and an unreasonable person, who flies off the handle over nothing. He's too old, and he lies about what is going on in Iraq, just like Bush. He talks about winning a war, which everyone agrees is unwinnable. He touts the success of the surge, after last week there was a virtual line of of experts on foreign policy, from Doctors of Political Science and warfare, to retired generals, and aarab speaking journalists, who all agreed that the drop in violence is a result of the genocide which has been going on in Iraq, with the support of the United States, for several years. That there is not a single good option, and all we can do is try to chose the least dangerous and disasterous of several bad options for our future participation in a failed foreign policy decision made by your boy Bush. There is a shared point of view, at present, that we MUST get out of Iraq, and that getting out will not be easy, and could end up looking like the exit from Vietnam, or worse. The present campaign in Iraq of paying these people to stop killing one another, has not changed their intentions, individually as groups, to take the country over, eventually. They are collecting the money that Bush doles out to them, and alughing all the way to the bank, knowing full well, that we can't possibly stay much longer, so they might just as well get some money, regroup, and wait till we leave to continue their civil war, and their fight to take control. Atleast we don't have to listen anymore to Bush touting his former predictions of a Democracy in Iraq, which was a ridiculous prediction, or goal, in the first place. Every single general stated last week that alwaeda shouldn't even be brought up. That al Qaeda is based in many countries, but Iraq is not one of them, and that the Sunni, AND the Shiia, would have run them out of the country regardless of the surge. They stated that the appearance of success of the surge, was a result of several accidental events which occured before the surge began. The all agreed, from the generals to the journalists, to the intellectuals, that Fredrick Kagen's input is worthless, and that people like McCain, who go on these babysitting tours of Iraq, don't have a clue what is really happening in other parts of the country, and that the entire philosophy of staying in Iraq to prevent Al Qaeda from inheriting Iraq as a safe harbor, is absurd. Virtually everything McCain is saying about the economy, and Iraq, is a lie, or absurd. Even George Will stated last sunday that McCain's statements about how to handle this recession were adolecent statements, at best.

</span> Of course there is no proof that the Bush campaign was behind the whisper campaign of McCain's wife being a drug addict and McCain having a black child etc and the Bush's camp denied being behind it. <span style="color: #000066">BWA HA HA HA, since when has the Bush Camp ever admitted to any of their illegal, failed, absurd actions? </span> But if you believe he was then you have to believe that Hillary's campaign was behind the crazy guy (Larry Sinclair)on the internet <span style="color: #000066">Ah, yet another of your usual flawed reasoning, and illogical conclusions. </span> that says he and Obama smoked crack together and that they were gay lovers. <span style="color: #000066">While I'm not an Obama fan, he couldn't possibly be gay, he's not Republican! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif </span>
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Bobbyrx
04-08-2008, 10:25 AM
You said "When I watched the Bush Campaign's attacks on John McCain, a former POW, I knew that those people were trash." If you had said "When I watched the Bush Campaign's attacks on John McCain, an old,mentally deranged,senile idiot who is Bush on crack" then I would not have had a problem because you would have at least been consistent....

And as for "While I'm not an Obama fan, he couldn't possibly be gay, he's not Republican!" You got me there (not that there's anything wrong with that) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Deeman3
04-08-2008, 12:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bobbyrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You said "When I watched the Bush Campaign's attacks on John McCain, a former POW, I knew that those people were trash." If you had said "When I watched the Bush Campaign's attacks on John McCain, an old,mentally deranged,senile idiot who is Bush on crack" then I would not have had a problem because you would have at least been consistent....

And as for "While I'm not an Obama fan, he couldn't possibly be gay, he's not Republican!" You got me there (not that there's anything wrong with that) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif </div></div>


Bobby,

At least she didn't bring up the McCain and Abel Story... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

sack316
04-08-2008, 01:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

At least she didn't bring up the McCain and Abel Story... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

hey-ho!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/photogalleries/carson/images/12_carson.jpg

Gayle in MD
04-08-2008, 02:23 PM
I think my point is that McCain's recent statements and actions have dampened my former positive feelings about him, and particularly when he abandoned his own anti-torture bill, speaks dishonestly about Iraq, and his intention to continue on a failed track in Iraq. I absolutely do think he demonstrates in many ways, that he is too old for the job, and one of them is the fact that he looks like his mother's dad!

McCain wants war with Iran, and I want us to use diplomatic intervention in our future conflicts, not more going off half cocked, like the typical neocon war monger.

His lack of knowledge im the field of domestic economic policies are of great concern to me, and most inside the beltway believe that his would be another Bush Administration, at a time that we can ill afford that disasterous possibility.

Appraising his credentials for the presidency, is a far cry from slandering his wife and child, IMO. Being a former POW is hardly the preview of being president, that being the wife of a president is, just watch the series, John Adams, for proof.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
04-08-2008, 04:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Appraising his credentials for the presidency, is a far cry from slandering his wife and child, IMO. Being a former POW is hardly the preview of being president, that being the wife of a president is, just watch the series, John Adams, for proof.

Gayle in Md.

Especially when the First Lady was pinned down by sniper fire, while her campaign manager was off cutting a deal in South America, while McCain was leisurly resting in a North Viet Nam Day Camp. I was not aware that docudramas were evidentary in preping for the role of President.

I'd much rather see how she handles the questioning of General Betrayus (Moveon.org spelling) and her explaination of how she will contain Iran than how much she resembles a character on TV. She may have good answers but I fear her not being in a forum that will ask relavent questions may make it unlikely we will ever know. The Tonight show that she and the other know they will get softball questions makes it hard to get a good answer with follow-up. Of course, obama is getting the same treatment for now.

NPR did say today that as soon as America leaves, the Al Queda will leave and the Iransians will "assist" Iraq. Wow, I can't wait to see what that assistance is. Now that McCain is done, will she let us know the details of her policy plans? I can't wait to ditch this Blue Cross/Blue Shield and get some real government help. It will save my company millions a month.



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hondo
04-09-2008, 02:01 PM
NPR did say today that as soon as America leaves, the Al Queda will leave and the Iransians will "assist" Iraq.

NPR talks? And has opinions of its own?

Deeman3
04-09-2008, 03:03 PM
NPR, National Public (Pubic) Radio does, on occasion, talk. See, I even listen to the evil side as well. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

SKennedy
04-09-2008, 04:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> .....just watch the series, John Adams, for proof.

Gayle in Md.
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There was supposed to be a smiley face at the end of that statement....right?

Gayle in MD
04-10-2008, 08:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Especially when the First Lady was pinned down by sniper fire, while her campaign manager was off cutting a deal in South America, <span style="color: #000066">I believe there has been plenty of documentation that Hillary was against the NAFTA policy. Several who were serving in the White House during Bill Clinton's administration have stated that. </span> while McCain was leisurly resting in a North Viet Nam Day Camp. <span style="color: #000066">I don't think McCain was a prisoner during the Clinton Administration, but I stand by my opinion that being captured, jailed and tortured, while horrible, is not presidential experience. I had admired John McCain for years until I watched him change his M.O. on almost everything, for political gains. For me, the beginning of my loss of respect for him as a politician began when he told that horrible joke about Chelsea when she was just an adolecent...."Do you know why Chelsea is so ugly, because Janet Reno is her father." What kind of person does something like that? Friends of mine watched him lunge at a fellow Senator, for a fight, and he has been known to curse people out, and generally treat them like trash, from fellow Senators, to Blue collar workers, who work in the Senate office building. Between that, and his admitted lack of knowledge of economics, at a time when George Bush has led this country into the worst economic situation since the great depression, and additionally, being unable to keep it straight who is fighting whom in Iraq, and why, and his continually exaggerating the success of the surge, I shudder at the thought of him leading this country.

</span> I was not aware that docudramas were evidentary in preping for the role of President. <span style="color: #000066">Gee, friend, I thought it was history. I have a book of the letters which Abagail and John wrote to one another during his service to our country. I think it is more than fair to say that she played a huge role in his decision making, and in his growth as a man. I do think that while some women are very self involved, and take little part in their husband's growth and successes, there are other kinds of women who play a huge role, behind the scenes, and I do believe that both Abagail Adams, and Hilary Clinton, played very active roles in their husband's successes.

All three of the presidential political campaigns have suffered the exposure of their supporters being involved in questionable activities, including McCain. I'd say they're on equal ground, in that regard.</span>

I'd much rather see how she handles the questioning of General Betrayus (Moveon.org spelling) and her explaination of how she will contain Iran than how much she resembles a character on TV.


<span style="color: #000066">Well, friend, after having watched the retired generals, last week, along with three renouned Iraq experts, on another day, I'd have to say that even though obviously, Petraeus and Crocker have displayed a much less optimistic projection than their original statements about what would be accomplished by the "Surge" they have still exaggerated the actual real time improvments. I will quote several statements made by others, who spend a great deal of time in Iraq, talking also with Iraqis, and generals on the ground, to support my claim.

General Odem, to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the success in Anbar: [quote]

Turning to the success in Anbar, and a few other Sunni areas, this is not the positive situation it has been purported to be. Clearly, violence has declined, as local Sunni leaders have begun to cooperate with U.S. forces, but the "Surge" tactic cannot be given full credit. The decline started earlier with Sunni initiatives. What are their motives? First, anger at the al Qaeda operatives, and second their financial pride. Thier break with al Qaeda should five us little comfort. The Sunnis welcomed al Qaeda, pricisely because they would help kill Americans. The concern we hear the president and his aides expressed about a residual base left for al Qaeda if we withdraw is utter nonsense. The sunnis will soon destroy al Qaeda if we leave. the Kurds do not allow them in their region, and the Shiites, like the Iranians, detest al Qaeda. Th understand why, one need only take note of the al Qaeda campaign over the last few years on internet bloggs. They implore the United States to bomb and destroy this Apostate Shiite regime. Now, as an aside, just let me comment that it gives me pause to learn that our Vice President, and some members of the Senate, [color:#006600]McCain, clearly one of them) </span>are aleigned with al Qaeda on spreading the war to Iraq. Let me emphasize that our new Sunni "friends" insist on being paid for their loyalty. I've heard of one example where the rough estimate for the costs in a hundred square killometer, thats a ten by ten killometer area, is $250,000.00 a day to pay these fellows. Now you might want to find our when the administrations witnesses come next week what these total costs add up to and what They're forcasted for in the years ahead. Remember, we do not own these people, we rent them, and they can break that lease at any moment, at the same time, this deal protects them to some degree, from the government's troops and its police, hardly a sign of reconciliation!

Now, let us consider the implications of the proliferating deals with Sunni Strong Men. They are far from unified unde any single leader. Some remain with al Qaaeda, many who break and join with our forces are beholding to no one else. Thus the decline in violence reflects a dispersion of power to dozens of local Strong Men, who distrust the government, and occasionally fight among themselves. thus the basic military situation is worse because of the proliferation of armed groups, under local military chiefs, who follow a proliferating number of political leaders. This can hardly be called military stability, much less progress toward political soncolidation, and to call it gragility that needs more time to become success is to ignore its implications.

At the same time as Prime Minister Maliki's actions last week indicate an even wider political and military fragmentation. We're witnessing what could more accurately be described as the road to balkinization, that is political fragmentation, in Iraq. We're being asked by the president to believe that this shift of so much power and finance to so many local chiefs, is the road to political centralization. He describes this process as state building from the bottom up. Now I challenge you to press the administration's witnesses to explain this absurdity. Ask them to name a single historical case where power has been agrigated to a central government, from local strong men, except through bloody violence and a civil war leading to the emergence of a single winner without exception, a dictator. The history of fuedal Europe, to absolute monarchy, is this story. Its the story of AMerican colonization of the West, and our civil war. It took england 800 years to subdue the clan rule on the Scottish, English border. This is the source of violence in Bosnia and Kasova today. How can our leaders celebrate this defusion of power as effective state building? More accurately, it' described as placing the United States astride several civil wars, not just one, and it allows all sides to consolidate, re-arm, refill their financial coffers at U. S, expense.

To sum up, we face a deterriorating situation, with an over extended army, so aptly described by General McCaffrey.

[color:#000066]Although I think I may have screwed up this color function, I'm hoping you can still follow...as here are statements made by Mr. Nir Rosen, of the NY University, Fellow, and Prize winning author, and Arab Speaking Expert on Middle East Affairs....

[quote]I spent most of the last five years in Iraq, especially with Sunni and shiia militiamen in Mosques and powers of center. Other than the green zone, so I hope to five you a different perspective.

I left Iraq a little over a month ago. The Bush administration and the US military have stopped talking of Iraq as a grand project of nation bujilding. The American media has obeyed this as well, and they have also abandoned the larger narrative, presenting Iraq as a series of small pieces, and just as Iraq is being physically de-constructed, it's also being intellectually de-constructed, a stronger estate undergoing an occupation in a civil war and a transition, by small stories of local heros and villians, and well meaning American soldiers of good new here and progress there. Butthe whole is much less than some if its parts.


Iraq is basically Somalia, I'm leaving aside Kurdistan when I talk about Iraq, You have war lords and lilitias controling fiefdoms. Most of the experts who give their opinion on Iraq, such as Fred Kagan, from the American enterprise Institute, and those people who don't speak Arabic, who go around on baby sat tours with the American soldiers, the view they present of Iraq, is false, and they've done you a disservice. there is no shortage of Iraqis, though I applaud you for bringing Mr,Saide of the Revenue Watch Institute, Middle East Director. Iraqis can speak for themselves and journalists who have aspent much of their time there. While it's true that fewer AMericans are dying in Iraq , and perhaps from purely an American point of view, that's a success, but less Americans are dying in Iraq because the dominate sotry is no longer resistance to a foreign ocupation. It's no longer a war of national Liberation. Less Americans are dying because Iraq has been in a civil war. Less Americans are dying because Iraq is now in a battle for control between various Iraqi factions, and the propper standard for judging progress in Iraq isn't the number of American deaths, but it's the quality of life for Iraqis and unfortunately, for most Iraqis, life under Saddam, was better. Even opponents of Saddam are saing this and I was just a few weeks ago with people from the Mahdi Army asking them, after five years, was life for you better with Saddam, and they said yes, it was.

An Iraq doesn't exist today. It has no government. It's in the control of War Lords, as I said, and events in the green zone, have never mattered, and still don't matter. It's always been a theater. The people who control power in Iraq are the militia leaders who have never inhabited the green zone, and therefore focussing on laws passed in the green zone, and political deals made in the green zone, or the international zone, is a distraction, and a dangerous one.

Now since the escalation of American soldiers began last year, thousands of Iraqis have continued to flee their homes, mostly from Baghdad, and Baghdad has become virtually a Shiia city leaving aside a few Sunni pockets. So one of the main reasons why less Iraqis are dying is because there are less Iraqis to kill. the civil war was very successful in achieving the goals of the various parties. This is a key to understanding the drop in violence. Shiia were cleansed from Sunni areas, so this was bound to stop eventually, the violence was logical and ti achieved it's logic, it achieved its goals. the enemy'd population was displaced. And if war is politics by any other means, the Shiia won, and they now control most of Iraq. Fortunately, for the planners of the surge, events were working in their favor internally in the Iraqi civil war. The Sunniw had lost and beginning in 2006, when I interacted with Sunni resistance leaders in Iraq and Syria and Jordan, they began to realize Oh my God, we've lost, what do we do now? And there were internal recriminations. They blamed Sunni Clerics in 2003 who had issued Fatwas prohibiting sunniw from joining the Iraqi government. They began to wonder what they should do next, and they began to realize that from their point of view, now, their main opponent may be the same opponent that the Americans had, Iran, and they began to pursue that route, and they hoped that AMericans would realize that they had this common enemy although it took a while for them to come on board. In many ways, they were shocked how they became the enemy. They thought that they were the rightful rulers of Iraq, and they would have been very happy to accomodate an AMerican presence...............so you heard Iraqi resistance leadres saying this throughout the years, as long as they were in power, these mostly Sunni men. Now, the AMericans armed both sides, in a civil war, and this was also basically allowed for some temporary stability. How are you arming both sides in a civil war? The Iraqi security forces, majority Mahdi Army, ofcourse, and now you are allowing for Sunni Militiamen to arm themselves, to use money given to them by AMericans to arm themselves, David Cucullen, the influential counter insurgent advisor has defined this asbalancing competing armed interest groups.

Now supporters of the war and the Surge tout this as a success, but they forget that tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands perhaps, ofIraqis have been killed, millions displaced, and thousands of dead and American wounded have also been a price, just so that the violence could go back to the horrifying levels that it was a couple of years ago, and much of the violence doesn't get reported. American officers under-report the violence, much of the violence occurs outside the sight of the American Military, or of the media. When I was living in Baghdad these last few months, several times there were dead bodies outside in front of my house that didn't makje the media. A guy was shot in the head on his way to work who was an interriro ministry official, these sorts of things happen all the time, yet they don't get reported, although it's true that violence is down a little bit. Now at the same time that Sunniw were realizing that they lost the civil war, al Sadr realized that his militia was out of control. He had lost control of many of his men, they were no longer resisting the Americans, or protecting areas from Sunnis, but they were establishing their own mafias, they were trrrorizing civilians, and they feared that clashing with the EMricans and with Sunnis who were being empowered, would threaten his own power, and he knew that within the context of the surge, he was one of the main targets, or his militia was, so he could reform his troops, he could consolidate his control over theml. He Could take out the bad ones, and sort of wait the AMericans out, because liketge sunnis, he knew that AMericans were bound to leave eventually.

The Mahdi Army freeze, which began in late August of last year, coincided with a huge drop in violence, which among other things shows us just how responbible they were for the recent violence, the same time the Sunni militias imposed bascially their own cease fire. they had been battling the Americans, the shiia's and al Qaeda and they had failed on every front. Resistance to the occupation had not succeeded in liberating Iraq from the invading Americans or in seizing power overthrowing the Iraqi government. the Shiia militias had won the civil war, and Sunnis were being purged from Baghdad, purged from the Iraqi state, phuysically purged and also purged from the ministries, they majority of Iraqi refugees outside of Iraq were Sunni, while they innitially allowed al Qaeda to enter their areas to protect them from Americans, and from the Shiias, but while this had been a temporary successful tactic, al Qaeda began to impose it's own reign of terror in Sunni Areas, establighing it's own mafias, bin Ladens al qaeda, as you should be familiar to inner city america, teen agers stealing cars, calling themselves al Qaeda, because it sounds kool, makes you sound tough, that's what they are. but the route of these out of control young men undermining these traditional authorities, undermining traditional smuggling routes, and something had to be done, as a result, Sunni men began to cooperate with Americans against al Qaeda. Members of the resistance who fought the AMericans and engaged in organized crims, just couldn't take it anymore. These humilitrists called the awakening groups, or sons of Iraq, or concerned Local Citizens, critical infrastructure security gaurds, Iraqi security volunteers, are the the most part former members of the resistance. I've spent a lot of time with them in Baghdad and elsewhere, their members of the 1020 REvolution Brigade, Islamic Army of Iraq, Army of the Mujahadine, and other groups.

Now the tactic of U.S. supporting these armed groups worked best in the Anbar Province, it's partially worked in Baghdad, although many of the Iraqis in BAAghdad, and elsewhere, feel that al Waeda has imposed its own cease fire, so they're waiting on the surge as well, in the they're lying low. And now in the very violent Dialla Province and the Sa Hadine, the Anbar model has not succeeded at all. And like the Madi Army, the Sunni militias hope to wait for the AMericans to reduce their troop levels to resume fighting the Shiia militias, and jamming the AMerican backed militias has given them territory in Baghdad and elsewhere that they now control. This was their dreamm to seize power in as many areas as possible and from there even seize control of the state and for the first time in a couple of years, they feel optimistic. These Sunnimilitias also have political goals, and they're attempting to unite tobecome a larger movement that will be able to regain Sunni territory and effectively fight the Shiia militias and the Shiia dominated government which they refer to as an Iranian accopation so they say, we have a temporary cease fire, a hoohdna, with the Americans, so we can fight the Iranian occupation of Iraq, which to them means the Shiia dominated government, the Shiia Militias. I actually accompanied a few weeks ago, members of some of these Sunni Militias from South Baghdad from Dora to Ramadi where they paid homage to alBarichi, the brother of the slain awakening leader that President Bush met, and they hope to jam his movement. they didn't view themselves as Security Gaurds, they view themselves as nacent political movement, we have achieved military success, now we have to translate that into some sort of political success, and to them the main enemy is the Iraqi state. They're very explicit about that, atleast when the American soldiers aren't around.

Now these awakening groups are paid by the US military, and operate in much of the country and they employ former fighters, and are empowering them and this is much to the consternation of the Shiia dominated government as well as the Shiia militias, who throught they had defeated the Suinniw just to see the Americans come into Baghdad through the back door. So the militais, the main problem in Iraq, we've just created new ones. American soldiers, officers, call this Iraqi solutions for Iraqi problems - but it's really quite a very frightening scenario when you ahve more militias in a country that's been terrorized by militias. Now by accepting money from Americans, the Sunni militias have rid themselves from their point of view, of an onerous American presence. the AMericans think they've purchased Sunni loyalty, but the Sunniw think that they've purchased American loyalty. they think they've gotten the AMericans off thier backs, for a little while, so they can rebuild their power, rebuild their strangth and eventually take on the shiia, the militias are chaffing under the restrictions place on them. the Mahdi Army fighters are losing power on the street. they're no longer out there with their guns. Either American groups are there, or awakening groups are there. Crime in increasing in these areas because the Madi Army was preventing some sorts of crimes, and they're very frustrated, and they were for a while, that the Americans are still targetting them, still arresting them, and that the Iraqi Army is targetting them. And they're very frustrated with what they see as al Qaeda guys who were killing us a few months ago now are being employed and paid by the Americans.
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[color:#000066]Deeman, I realize I have taken this post way beyond where it started, but I will leave you now with only two thoughts. I, Like you, am not thrilled with any of our candidates, frankly, I was hoping that either Mark Warner, former Virginia governor, along with either Biden, or Chuck hagle, yes, a Republican, or John Murtha, or someone, anyone who I thought was realistic about Iraq, would be involved in this presidential campaign. Obama will never be my choice, but I do believe that if all Americans would go to the C-Span website and give a fair listen to the hearings before the Senate Foreign Relations and the Senate armed services committee last week, and then listen to statements made by John McCain, and even our illustrious General Petraeus, and the speech impeeded Iraq Ambassador, it would be very hard for any American to buy into any kind of statements which suggest that this surge, and this process of continuing to arm these warring factions, or buy them off temporarily, is a reasonable, successful plan for the safety of America, and the best interests of our troops, they would certainly have to suspend critical judgement, as Hillary once stated.

There is no question in my mind, according to her stated intentions, that Hillary is the best person to get us out of this colossal mess in Iraq, out of he results of Bush's disasterous economic policies, and out of Iraq, where in short time, our troops will be the targets of all who hate AMerica in Iraq, which in actuality, is almost every Iraqi there.

We're being jerked off, Bush is abusing our national Gaurd, our Army is broken, Iraq has fractured into more dangerous pieces of a greater civil war, expanding with our money, and McCain is whooping up the so called success of the Surge. Iraq is enjoying billions upon billions as we are being gouged at our pumps, and borrowing money from China, to pay for the liberation of a people who never liked us, but will now hate us for the rest of their lives. We have no allies in the Middle East. We are the enemy, of our enemies, and in fact, the enemy of our friends.

Unbelievable!
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NPR did say today that as soon as America leaves, the Al Queda will leave and the Iransians will "assist" Iraq. Wow, I can't wait to see what that assistance is. Now that McCain is done, will she let us know the details of her policy plans? I can't wait to ditch this Blue Cross/Blue Shield and get some real government help. It will save my company millions a month.


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Deeman3
04-10-2008, 09:34 AM
Gayle,

Your reply is way too long for a southern boy to reply to but I see many of your points.

On another subject, I watched a special on HBO last night about the rape of women in Africa. This was one of the most tragic stories I have seen. Of course, I was aware of the treatment of women there but the attitude of the people was most amazing to me. These poor souls get it from both the Army that should protect them as well as Rebel groups. It is thought of as a right of soldiers in the bush to "relieve" his needs with any women he can find. These serial rapists even have a cultural belief that it gives them power battle like a potion.

The sad thing is that there is absolutly no hope that the government will help and generations of these poor women, as well as their grandmothers and daughters have nothing to look forward to other than more of the same. The police even rape the victims with punishments of being released for as little as $3! If reported, the victims families are raped and killed in retaliation. Many of them have their husbans killed and are raped in front of their children who, of course, turn into rapists when they grow up.

This whole situation makes the genital mutilation seem calm by comparison. You know, it seems some societies have almost no redeaming value. This is not something money, nor politics seem to be able to stop. As they are "Africa" it will not be in the political interest of the American government to interviene.

Gayle in MD
04-10-2008, 01:37 PM
I couldn't watch it, Deeman, but I have watched documentaries on the subject, before. I usually don't sleep well for atleast three nights afterward.

I've always said that women, above all other groups, have been most consistantly abused and opressed, during war, and during other forms of broad social unrest, their plight, always increases. Even our own women, presently serving in Iraq, are being raped at an alarming pace, given that we are Americans.

I heard the other night that Shirly Chisholm, (think that's the right spelling) was the first woman to run for President, a black woman, during the seventies, I believe, and I must confess, I had forgotten all about that. She was asked if she thought she had been most discriminated against for being black, or for being a woman, and she laughed, "Definitely, for being a woman," she said.

I find it very distressing observing this presidential campaign, and as I have stated before, I feel that Hillary has been held to a much higher standard than the male candidates. I also think it is a disgrace that our president would attend the Opening ceremony, and also suck up to China, even borrowing huge amounts of money, from such a communist country, which has been so involved in what is happening in Africa.

I often wonder, could an international Force be organized to end what is happening in Africa? Does anybody care? It is hard to accept that we live in a world that does not respond to such inhumane horror, and that it has been going on for so long.

BTW, did you know that the Mormans who were infiltrated in texas, get a great deal of money from welfare in the form of food stamps, etc., which is collected by the women for all their illiegitmate children, and then given to the male leaders of the church?


Unbelievable!

hondo
04-10-2008, 03:38 PM
I see that McCain is now tied in the polls with the Democratic
candidates.
Starting to look like 8 more years of hell.
I'm sure the neo-cons are thrilled.

Gayle in MD
04-15-2008, 07:38 AM
Here is everything we need to know about McCain...as it was stated by General Odem, to the Senate Foreign Relations committee, before the rosey summation by Petraeus, a week later....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"How can our leaders celebrate this defusion of power as effective state building? More accurately, it' described as placing the United States astride several civil wars, not just one, and it allows all sides to consolidate, re-arm, refill their financial coffers at U. S, expense."

General Odem
</div></div>

The fact that John McCain is for this campaign in Iraq, is more than enough reason not to vote for him. To think that we are paying these former insurgents not to kill our troops, for a while, and they are saving the money we pay them in order to kill our troops again, at a later date, is pure insanity!

McCain has lied over and over about Iraq, and we've had enough lies about Iraq to last a lifetime.

No one who votes for him can say they give a flying **** about our troops, which have been left to die for nothing, in an un-necessary, militarily unwinnable war, between warring civilians, which all experts agree, has no good solutions, and will come back to a fight for power between Iraqais, regardless of how many of our troops die, or how long we stay, or how soon we leave.

The only reasonable thing to do is to get them out of there as soon as possible, and tell the Iraqis, You're on your own, and BTW, you can re-pay us for all our losses by giving us a deal on oil for the nest ten years, since you refused to take the ball for five years, and our soldiers lost their lives trying to bring you safety and peace, because you wanted to sit on the sidewalk and sip tea, while they died, and chose to go on vacation, while they were fighting for your country.

It is positively disgusting for me to hear of ANY American death in the interest of Iraq's future. Listening to McCain talk about al Qaeda's possible safe haven in Iraq, if we leave, is a complete lie! It proves either his complete dishonesty, or his complete lack of understanding of the situation.

I don't think most Americans have any taste for fear mongering at this point.

If McCain should pull this election off somehow, it will be because of all the Republicans who don't bother keeping abreast of current affairs, or their undying hatred of anything that they precieve as liberal. Only a total idiot would vote for a man who states that al Qaeda will have a safe haven in Iraq if we leave! al Qaeda NEVER had a safe haven in Iraq, and never will. That is pure BUSHLIES. McCain, supports the lies of the Bush Administration, bottom line, and for him to do so after having suffered as he did in another unwinnable war, says quite a lot about his integrity, IMO, and none of it good!

Gayle in Md.