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cp1
04-03-2008, 02:45 PM
So last night I am on another 8 Ball playing binge with my father in law.
Its a ritual. We play like 20+ games a night sometimes. Basically the one with the most wins at the end of the night is declared the winner. He has been kicking my @$$ something major for a long time. I've won 2 out of 5 so far this year.

Anyway, one play came into huge question and under major debate.
So I want some 8 Ball players (veterans) to comment on how true this is.


Here is the situation.
I have the last shot corner pocket. We play last pocket 8 Ball.
My shot is in the corner. 8 Ball is right on the rail. My father in law still has 1 ball he needs to hit in before he can go for the 8 ball. Its sitting right next to my pocket. I hit the 8 ball, roll it towards the pocket a bit off from the target but, it bounces off of his ball and goes into my pocket.

He says its a foul and I loose.
I call BS.


Here is a picture:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9251/dsc04919hz4.jpg


Is he right?

I went ahead that night and looked at two OFFICIAL 8 Ball rule sites and they say I am correct. Yet he still wont accept them.
BCA (http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml)
IPT (http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Rules/)

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 02:57 PM
Not being an expert, and knowing nothing about "Last Pocket," I'd say you won the game and there is no foul.

And 20+ games is a binge? That's a little more than a warm-up!

And, whose house and table you playing on? If it's his, then by all means be gracious. If not, then tell him to quit being a control freak and let you and your wife live your own life....just kidding there....we'll leave the "shrink" stuff to JoeW!!

Greg E
04-03-2008, 02:57 PM
I always play that you have to call kisses, banks, combos, everything on call shots, whether it's straight pool or the 8 in 8-ball. But all that really matters is that you both agree on the rule in the game you're playing. Some people don't care what is called or not called as long as it gets in the right pocket. It's up to you. Maybe call this one a draw and start over with a firm rule in place.

Deeman3
04-03-2008, 02:58 PM
By most rule sets you are correct but many bar rules make you pocket the 8 ball "clean" or, sometimes, call it off the opponent's ball. In a friendly family game, you just have to agree to use whatever rules you agree on, "Before you begin play."

Is this the first ime it has come up in your many games?

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 03:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always play that you have to call kisses, banks, combos, everything on call shots, whether it's straight pool or the 8 in 8-ball. But all that really matters is that you both agree on the rule in the game you're playing. Some people don't care what is called or not called as long as it gets in the right pocket. It's up to you. Maybe call this one a draw and start over with a firm rule in place. </div></div>

Greg, that's fine that you guys play that way, but I just could never understand it. Granted, folks may get lucky once in awhile and carom off a ball unintentionally and make a shot, but the better player generally wins assuming you will be playing more than 1 game. I just don't play with those that require that degree of "calling everything." If the ball I (or my opponent) call goes into the pocket I call, then that's good enough.

cp1
04-03-2008, 03:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By most rule sets you are correct but many bar rules make you pocket the 8 ball "clean" or, sometimes, call it off the opponent's ball. In a friendly family game, you just have to agree to use whatever rules you agree on, "Before you begin play."

Is this the first ime it has come up in your many games? </div></div>

This is the first time that comes up yes.
We are going to set straight forward rules for the next set of games, call every shot.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And 20+ games is a binge? That's a little more than a warm-up!

And, whose house and table you playing on? If it's his, then by all means be gracious. If not, then tell him to quit being a control freak and let you and your wife live your own life....just kidding there....we'll leave the "shrink" stuff to JoeW!! </div></div>

We play A LOT sometimes.
We went to about 40 games one night.
It was too close to let go man. lol

And we play at my house. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always play that you have to call kisses, banks, combos, everything on call shots, whether it's straight pool or the 8 in 8-ball. But all that really matters is that you both agree on the rule in the game you're playing. Some people don't care what is called or not called as long as it gets in the right pocket. It's up to you. Maybe call this one a draw and start over with a firm rule in place.</div></div>

We are going to do that moving forward.

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 03:07 PM
Don't forget the most important thing...have fun....

Greg E
04-03-2008, 05:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always play that you have to call kisses, banks, combos, everything on call shots, whether it's straight pool or the 8 in 8-ball. But all that really matters is that you both agree on the rule in the game you're playing. Some people don't care what is called or not called as long as it gets in the right pocket. It's up to you. Maybe call this one a draw and start over with a firm rule in place. </div></div>

Greg, that's fine that you guys play that way, but I just could never understand it. Granted, folks may get lucky once in awhile and carom off a ball unintentionally and make a shot, but the better player generally wins assuming you will be playing more than 1 game. I just don't play with those that require that degree of "calling everything." If the ball I (or my opponent) call goes into the pocket I call, then that's good enough. </div></div>

That's cool. There's really no right or wrong, and what you say makes sense - pocket the 8 and you win, no matter how. I can see the logic in that. The main thing is, as you said in a later post, just have fun.

SKennedy
04-03-2008, 09:25 PM
I'd still play 8-ball with you Greg!

JoeW
04-04-2008, 04:15 AM
I would guess that you play by the rules you agreed to. If no specific rules were agreed to then the "usual" rules apply.

Sounds to me like you agreed to last pocket which says the eight must go in the last pocket. You did not say that the player had to call the last pocket or "how" it had to be played in the last pocket, only that it had to go into the last pocket. That is what you did and you won.

BTW the same logic applies to calling ball and pocket. Nothing says "how" it has to go into the pocket so in that cse you win too.

In a game in which one must call "how" it goes into the pocket then anything that touches near a rail before it goes into a pocket is a miss unless one stated that they were playing off the point of the pocket. That is, every shot has to hit the back of the pocket. Now that would be a tough game and very few people play that way.

There is picky and then there is real picky. Maybe you need to recalculate all those games or throw them all out and start over with the new agreed upon rules. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Billy_Bob
04-04-2008, 06:32 AM
Say to your opponent: Show me where it says that in the rules! Show me the written rule for that!

Since you were able to produce written rules and your opponent has not been able to, then in my book you win!

Simple as that.

Buy official rulebook here...
http://www.seyberts.com/products/BCA_Rule_Book-271-313.html

Treehumper
04-04-2008, 08:50 AM
Pick up one of those "Rules of the Game" poster and hang it where it's readily visible. Start the night by agreeing to those rules with whatever exceptions like the last pocket rule.

I've played with people who nailed me on just that sort of call shot that JoeW has described. That led me to playing by the BCA rules. While some barroom players are uncomfortable with it, they come around when the get ball in hand.

Oh and you won, period.

Eric.
04-04-2008, 09:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cp1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So last night I am on another 8 Ball playing binge with my father in law.
Its a ritual. We play like 20+ games a night sometimes. Basically the one with the most wins at the end of the night is declared the winner. He has been kicking my @$$ something major for a long time. I've won 2 out of 5 so far this year.

Anyway, one play came into huge question and under major debate.
So I want some 8 Ball players (veterans) to comment on how true this is.


Here is the situation.
I have the last shot corner pocket. We play last pocket 8 Ball.
My shot is in the corner. 8 Ball is right on the rail. My father in law still has 1 ball he needs to hit in before he can go for the 8 ball. Its sitting right next to my pocket. I hit the 8 ball, roll it towards the pocket a bit off from the target but, it bounces off of his ball and goes into my pocket.

He says its a foul and I loose.
I call BS.


Here is a picture:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9251/dsc04919hz4.jpg


Is he right?

I went ahead that night and looked at two OFFICIAL 8 Ball rule sites and they say I am correct. Yet he still wont accept them.
BCA (http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml)
IPT (http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Rules/) </div></div>

See? This is the age old problem with 8 Ball; there are too many variations to the rules.

For example, in "bar rules", the 8 ball must go clean, so that would be a bad shot. On the other hand, most leagues are "call pocket" which means that all you have t odo is call the pocket and it doesn't matter how the ball gets there, it's a good shot.


Eric &gt;didn't read the other responses in this thread

JJFSTAR
04-04-2008, 12:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always play that you have to call kisses, banks, combos, everything on call shots, whether it's straight pool or the 8 in 8-ball.</div></div>

So Greg when you are playing strait pool do you when playing a cluster shot call lets say hypothetically that you have to call "Combination 1, 2, 10, 9, 15, 13 off the 8 and 6 in the corner" and the OB doesn’t touch the 6 on the way to the pocket how do you rule that good or bad hit?

Greg E
04-05-2008, 05:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'd still play 8-ball with you Greg! </div></div>

Me too S!

Greg E
04-05-2008, 05:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always play that you have to call kisses, banks, combos, everything on call shots, whether it's straight pool or the 8 in 8-ball.</div></div>

So Greg when you are playing strait pool do you when playing a cluster shot call lets say hypothetically that you have to call "Combination 1, 2, 10, 9, 15, 13 off the 8 and 6 in the corner" and the OB doesn’t touch the 6 on the way to the pocket how do you rule that good or bad hit?
</div></div>

I checked out the rules from the Billiard Congress of America and found this:

"A player may shoot any ball, but before the shot, must designate the called ball and called pocket. Details such as kisses, caroms, combinations or cushions (all of which are legal) need not be indicated."

I was mainly thinking of the 8 in 8-ball when I wrote my comment, and probaly shouldn't have included straight pool. I think I'll still call all the extra stuff on the 8, though. That's the way I play with my neighbour and it just feels "right". Plus he's a little older and has probably been playing that way all his life and don't feel like getting picky and bringing out the rule book.

MichaelS
04-05-2008, 07:13 AM
Usually the way I would handle it if playing someone, call ball and pocket. Easiest to set up and no arguments.

JJFSTAR
04-05-2008, 12:02 PM
Greg, cp1 and all; I am probably going to sound somewhat arrogant here and am probably going to fall under attack by some of the folks on this board however; I believe that this must be said. This isn’t really a question about if cp1 won the match of course he did and that is very easily proven. The question here is is it ok to have "house rules". Is it ok to organize and run little tournaments under "bar rules" format. I say of course it is and I love those rules. When I am out at bars and people are playing for $ with bar rules I always ask if I can play and bet more money than I would with someone on an opposing team. When I am about to play someone for cash and when discussing the rules they say they want everything called rails kisses etc... I always want to play for a little more. That person has just told me that they can’t beat me, they are not a break and run player so they are going to try this set of rules to make shots of mine a little more difficult and add an extra distraction that they are comfortable with fine; I am probably going to knock them to the moon anyway. <u>I am not a great pool player I have seen and played against too many great pool players to make that claim. </u>However I am working on becoming the best pool player that my natural ability will allow given my time and financial constraints. If you play this game long enough you will at some point figure out that in order to become a great pool player you have to play great pool players. And no great player is going to play "funzies" with you having to call the shot as it is intended. Sure they will play you for $ and that will get really expensive for you. But you are never going to become the best of the best because you’re not going to be playing with the best of the best. So to all those who stick to local, house, bar and other unrecognized rules because it “feels right” or “because that’s the way you have always played” more power to you. You are the pool hustler's bread and butter if you play for money I hope to meet you out there in hall or tavern. But understand that I believe that you have stymied your own development. Nothing in this world is played at the top level with "house rules" not football, darts, poker, tidily winks, curling or whatever; this question is not limited to pool. But is seems to be like an insect infestation in the pool world. However I do enjoy squashing the bugs so it’s ok with me.

Scott Lee
04-05-2008, 09:49 PM
No offense JJFSTAR, but you would be the "sucker" for a real pool hustler. It is inordinately easy to beat someone who "calls everything". I drive players like that crazy, by asking them which of six ways about how they're going to play the shot. This is only to demonstrate to them that it's much better to play by REAL rules...call the ball and pocket only.

Scott Lee

Cornerman
04-06-2008, 06:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No offense JJFSTAR, but you would be the "sucker" for a real pool hustler. It is inordinately easy to beat someone who "calls everything". I drive players like that crazy, by asking them which of six ways about how they're going to play the shot. This is only to demonstrate to them that it's much better to play by REAL rules...call the ball and pocket only.

Scott Lee </div></div>I think you'll find that JJFSTAR said exactly the same thing.

Fred

JJFSTAR
04-06-2008, 10:19 AM
Scott read my post CAREFULLY!!!