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View Full Version : Cue Experts - Identify This Odd Shaft/Ferrule?



SpiderMan
08-06-2002, 09:11 AM
Looks like an outer layer of plastic, then wood/resin, then a plastic core with resin at the very center? Anyone know who uses this construction, and how it is actually put together? And why?

SpiderMan

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album&.src=ph&.dnm=Odd+Ferrule+Constr uction.jpg&.view=t&.done

Troy
08-06-2002, 09:19 AM
Can't be sure, but it looks like maybe it could be a "screw on tip" that has been partially "repaired". Very odd looking indeed.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr> Looks like an outer layer of plastic, then wood/resin, then a plastic core with resin at the very center? Anyone know who uses this construction, and how it is actually put together? And why?

SpiderMan

<a target="_blank" href=http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album&amp;.src=ph&amp;.dnm=Odd+Ferrule+Constr uction.jpg&amp;.view=t&amp;.done>http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album&amp;.src=ph&amp;.dnm=Odd+Ferrule+Constr uction.jpg&amp;.view=t&amp;.done</a>


<hr></blockquote>

Pizza Bob
08-06-2002, 09:34 AM
Wonder how far back that "inner core" extends? - Full length? Or are we seeing part of a cap that may disappear if another .125" is sectioned off? Either way, I don't have a clue. Sorry.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

08-06-2002, 11:11 AM
I think that the center and ring are actually glue that looks like wood or resin. I have seen this on some older cues (ie. Szamboti's) that cut this groove in the ivory ferrule to give the glue more of a bite. If you sand or mill that down a little more the marks will probably disappear. Although leaving it there and glueing another tip back on will do no harm either. If it is an ivory ferrule I would suggest a backing pad.

SpiderMan
08-06-2002, 12:17 PM
That's a good hypothesis, I just wish I could check it out without disassembly. Problem is, the ferrule has two hairline cracks and I need to be sure of myself before I start machining it off to replace it. If I shouldn't take on the job, I'll hand it back as is. Once I take that first cut, I'm committed to finishing the job right.

I'm going to hold out for a few more opinions, but I do appreciate your idea.

SpiderMan

BLACKHEART
08-06-2002, 12:58 PM
The ferrule probably had surface cracks, so the repairman turned it down to where the rest was still solid. Then he cut off a ferrule from a Q( maybe a house Q), drilled a hole in the tenon remaining in the middle of the cut off ferrule &amp; simply glued it to the turned down ferrule. When I first started I did this a few times when I ran low on new ferrules...JER

BLACKHEART
08-06-2002, 01:02 PM
I forgot to say that the middle part that you see, is what's left of a capped ferrule. The repairman probably didn't know how to make one &amp; if he took it off he would have a shaft that was 1/4" shorter. This was his solution...JER

SpiderMan
08-06-2002, 01:13 PM
Jerry,

If that's the case, how did he wind up with such a large difference in the ID of his new ferrule and the OD of what he left of the tenon? That would mean that the first band of "brown" from the outside would have to be a glue line, but it's very wide and perfectly concentric.

SpiderMan

BLACKHEART
08-06-2002, 01:28 PM
No, the ring you see is WOOD. Reread my post, maybe I wasn't clear. He cut off a ferrule that was glued to a wooden tenon of an old shaft. That would mean the SAWED off ferrule, still had the wooden tenon in the middle. Then he drilled a hole in the middle the size he needed to go over the capped ferrule, that he had made smaller using the lathe. When you look at the ferrule he is going to use to make the repair, it has a white fiber outer ring &amp; a inner ring of wood. He simply slid that over the remainder of the capped ferrule &amp; glued it in place...JER

Rod
08-06-2002, 01:44 PM
Jer, well that makes sense but that inner ferrule must be paper thin. It's hard to tell the diameter just by looking.

BLACKHEART
08-06-2002, 01:48 PM
Anyway, to make the repair, turn off everything down to the capped ferrule diameter, using your lathe. Then, pop off what little is remaining of the capped ferrule. Then MAKE a new capped ferrule, with an ID to fit the tenon &amp; you're home free, with a great repair job. HELL THAT MIGHT BE ONE OF MY EARLY REPAIRS.HA-HA...JER(GOOD LUCK &amp; E-MAIL me if you have any problems)

SpiderMan
08-06-2002, 02:03 PM
JER,

OK, I see what you're saying about the ferrule re-use. Still, all the times I've turned down a threaded ferrule to remove it, the end cap has popped off as soon as I reached wood on the sides. Since this inner ring of plastic is only about 1/4" in diameter, it must certainly have been turned down below the threads. How did this small piece of end cap happen to stay attached to the turned-down original tenon?

Also, the inner and plastic outer material matches suspiciously well, as does the inner and outer brown stuff.

What did you think of gypsy's response? It would explain the excellent match between all material colors and textures. Have you seen capped ferrules grooved before?

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
08-06-2002, 02:07 PM
JER,

If it does turn out to be as you say, do you think the remaining tenon is thick enough (1/4") to be permanent? I have some melamine rod and brad point bits that I can use to make a capped ferrule.

SpiderMan

Q-guy
08-06-2002, 02:30 PM
I haven't read any of the posts so I hope I am not just repeating anything. It appears to be a linen phenolic ferrule. The dot in the center most likely is the glue relief hole indicating a capped ferrule. The line from what I can see in your picture is a groove often cut by many cuemakers in the end of ferrules. It is probably filled with glue causing the color. That is my best guess. Try picking at the brown ring and see if it in fact glue.

BLACKHEART
08-07-2002, 12:37 AM
A 1/4" tenon is fine. Your ferrule wall will be thicker &amp; stronger. Face off the end as someone sugested to start, but if it goes deeper, then the REUSED FERRULE, as I think it may be, can be repaired like a normal capped ferrule...JER

ted harris
08-07-2002, 12:49 AM
Is the ferrule a thermoset, or a very soft milk white thermoplastic? When you faced the ferrule off, did it string off or flake off? After you clean the ferrule off, put your magnifiers on and see if the ferrule is from a woven material? It looks a little shiny in the picture to be fiber, and it sure does not look like phenolic to me. Does it look like a Taiwan shaft to you? Most of them that I have seen like this have the pin in the shaft, or a 5/16 18 threaded insert. Sometimes with two black rings with a white .050(approximately) ring in the center. Maybe the whole length of the ringwork is 1/2". I suppose it could even have some checked ringwork. I have seen them both ways before. Can we see a picture of the whole shaft?

ted harris
08-07-2002, 01:11 AM
No way is that wood!

SpiderMan
08-07-2002, 12:34 PM
Ted,

I did a couple more things since my last posting. I talked to the owner and explained about the hairline cracks. The cracks are very short (about 0.15" long), at the base of the ferrule (not the tip end), and don't appear to go all the way through. You can't snag a needle point on either one. She asked me to go ahead and install the tip with a pad. So I put on the tip, told her not to break with the cue, and told her to keep an eye on the crack in case it begins to move.

I also asked about the origins of the shaft. It is one of two orginal shafts that came with the cue. She is the original owner, having ordered it from Huebler through Cecil Lowery approximately 10-15 years ago. The ferrule has never been replaced. I polished the ferrule up, and it appears to be real ivory. There is a distinct grain and it has varying shades of off-white and yellow that follow the grain.

It looks like the gypsy may have been correct, and the brown annular ring was a filled groove purposely cut. I had just never heard of this being done.

SpiderMan

TonyM
08-07-2002, 12:39 PM
I'd have to agree that this is the result of some sort of repair, and not an intentional production method. i don't know of any cuemaker that does this, nor do I see any reason why they would.

Tony

Q-guy
08-08-2002, 06:47 AM
I was sure that was what it was, when I said to try picking at the brown ring. (see my original post) Although from the picture I could not tell it was ivory. I don't know the real benefit of the groove, although Szamboti use to do it also.