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The Zot
04-07-2008, 09:56 AM
Hello everyone, I was wondering if the APA has ANY standards required for participating bars? The reason I ask is because we have a guy on our team who plays from a wheelchair and he absolutely can't get through the front door of some of the places we play.

I understand the local league's motivation of getting more bars to participate which generates more revenue but some of these places are ridiculous.

Scott Lee
04-07-2008, 10:15 AM
No...that responsibility would lie with the bar owner...not the APA.

Scott Lee ~ former APA league operator

KellyStick
04-07-2008, 11:18 AM
IT would seem to me thaat the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) would have something to say about this. I am not sure what the limits are for the application of this law but I don't see why a bar would be excluded. I am know expert on this but there are rules that may actually be law that speak to just this sort of thing. IT might be that the bar in question is in violation?

bsmutz
04-07-2008, 11:25 AM
I agree that it's up to the bars. That being said, there's also a disability act that requires places to be accessible to those in wheelchairs. I'm not sure how that affects private businesses and may vary from state to state, but I do know there is federal law in place to make sure those with disabilities can use public facilities. We used to play out of a bar where our table was upstairs and there was no other way to get to the table. We had to carry the wheelchair guy up and down the stairs. He didn't like it as the bathrooms and bar were downstairs so he really couldn't do anything on his own. There wasn't much we could do about it either, though, so for that particular bar, he just had to deal with it. Some places just haven't been made aware that they aren't making their establishment accessible and will make changes once they are told. Others need a little more persuasion.

The Zot
04-07-2008, 01:11 PM
We've checked into the ADA's position on this. The law states that any establishment built before a certain date (1973 I think) is "grandfathered" in. The older bars are not required to modify their places up to current standards.

That is not my question. My question was whether the APA held the host bars to ANY standards. Not necessarily up to ADA code.

I mean you could start with things like...
The host bar must have:
1) A roof.
2) Heating and air conditioning.
3) At least 1 (one) pool table.

Obviously those are silly, but it would definitely improve the overall APA environment if a bar owner was told he has to have his place up to a certain standard in order to join.

Once established and enforced, bar owners would wear the "APA Approved Facility" as a badge of honor.

Bob_Jewett
04-07-2008, 02:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Zot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... My question was whether the APA held the host bars to ANY standards. Not necessarily up to ADA code.

I mean you could start with things like...
The host bar must have:
1) A roof.
2) Heating and air conditioning.
3) At least 1 (one) pool table.
... </div></div>
I think it would be up to the local League Operator to decide whether he wants to subject his members to the conditions in a particular location. Around here all the APA rooms are pool rooms and not bars. I suspect that some of the players would have a problem with playing in a bar on bar tables and maybe with big cue balls.

The Zot
04-07-2008, 02:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Around here all the APA rooms are pool rooms and not bars. </div></div>
WOW, I'm jealous. Here in South Louisiana only about 4 out of 60 are actual halls. The rest are bars. And, (I swear to baby Jesus) we actually played in one where we had to go outside to use the bathroom.

I think the desperation factor of our local operator is evident. He won't turn away any potential revenue.

New2Pool
04-07-2008, 05:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Zot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Around here all the APA rooms are pool rooms and not bars. </div></div>
WOW, I'm jealous. Here in South Louisiana only about 4 out of 60 are actual halls. The rest are bars. And, (I swear to baby Jesus) we actually played in one where we had to go outside to use the bathroom.

I think the desperation factor of our local operator is evident. He won't turn away any potential revenue.
</div></div>

Was this a mixed league?

Rich R.
04-08-2008, 12:10 AM
I think the obvious answer to your question is to tell you to contact the national APA office. I'm sure the answers you have received have been given with the best of intentions, and a few may even have the knowledge to back up their answers. However, like any organization, things change constantly. The only way to get the most reliable answer to your question is to contact the main office. You may not get the answer you want, but you may also bring an issue to their attention, which they need to address.

dg-in-centralpa
04-08-2008, 06:09 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Zot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've checked into the ADA's position on this. The law states that any establishment built before a certain date (1973 I think) is "grandfathered" in. The older bars are not required to modify their places up to current standards.

</div></div>

To hold the bar owners to "Standards" so handicapped people can come in and play, the building then must become ADA compliant. It may not be cost effective for the owner. Most bars where I live are not ADA compliant. Most do not have the room for a handicapped accessible bathroom. If you have to enter the building by going up a few steps, ADA requires a ramp at a rate of one inch to one foot, meaning that if you have to go up two steps that equal two feet, you need a 24 foot ramp for wheel chairs. None of the bars where I live have this kind of room to build a ramp. Basr owners have a rough enough time making a living without having to convert to be ADA compliant.

DG

The Zot
04-08-2008, 08:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dg-in-centralpa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To hold the bar owners to "Standards" so handicapped people can come in and play, the building then must become ADA compliant. It may not be cost effective for the owner.</div></div>

Again, you missed my question. I'm not talking about "standards to allow handicapped people to play", That would be way too cost prohibitive to require that. I understand that. I'm talking about ANY standards. The league could start with minimal standards. Like two bathrooms, heating & AC, a minimum number of tables, etc. Over time they could tighten the requirements to include accessibility.

Scott Lee
04-08-2008, 02:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The only way to get the most reliable answer to your question is to contact the main office. You may not get the answer you want, but you may also bring an issue to their attention, which they need to address. </div></div>

Good luck with that! LOL They can't even address the issue of piss-poor L.O.'s, who condone sandbagging, and favoritism within their own franchise areas. I seriously doubt that St. Louis gives a hoot about 'accessability' in the doorways of host locations (not that it's wrong or anything)!

Scott Lee

Deeman3
04-09-2008, 12:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Zot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've checked into the ADA's position on this. The law states that any establishment built before a certain date (1973 I think) is "grandfathered" in. The older bars are not required to modify their places up to current standards.

That is not my question. My question was whether the APA held the host bars to ANY standards. Not necessarily up to ADA code.

I mean you could start with things like...
The host bar must have:
1) A roof.
2) Heating and air conditioning.
3) At least 1 (one) pool table.

Obviously those are silly, but it would definitely improve the overall APA environment if a bar owner was told he has to have his place up to a certain standard in order to join.

Once established and enforced, bar owners would wear the "APA Approved Facility" as a badge of honor. </div></div>

Some of our Texas friends will at least let you know that item #3 is a pretty sure bet but #1 and #2 may not be possible in East Texas... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

SKennedy
04-09-2008, 03:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Zot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've checked into the ADA's position on this. The law states that any establishment built before a certain date (1973 I think) is "grandfathered" in. The older bars are not required to modify their places up to current standards.

That is not my question. My question was whether the APA held the host bars to ANY standards. Not necessarily up to ADA code.

I mean you could start with things like...
The host bar must have:
1) A roof.
2) Heating and air conditioning.
3) At least 1 (one) pool table.

Obviously those are silly, but it would definitely improve the overall APA environment if a bar owner was told he has to have his place up to a certain standard in order to join.

Once established and enforced, bar owners would wear the "APA Approved Facility" as a badge of honor. </div></div>

Some of our Texas friends will at least let you know that item #3 is a pretty sure bet but #1 and #2 may not be possible in East Texas... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

Ouch Dee! That hurt! You know that here in East Texas if we have a decent pool table we will protect it with a good roof and air conditioning. Same with the pick-up truck and the hound dog. Now the kids and the brand new Suburban socer wagon just may have to sit outside and get wet, hail damage, etc......

Rich R.
04-09-2008, 10:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The only way to get the most reliable answer to your question is to contact the main office. You may not get the answer you want, but you may also bring an issue to their attention, which they need to address. </div></div>

Good luck with that! LOL They can't even address the issue of piss-poor L.O.'s, who condone sandbagging, and favoritism within their own franchise areas. I seriously doubt that St. Louis gives a hoot about 'accessability' in the doorways of host locations (not that it's wrong or anything)!

Scott Lee </div></div>
Scott, I wasn't aware that the main office was that bad at responding to important issues involving their leagues. I guess they only care about the money arriving on time.