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sack316
04-19-2008, 01:03 AM
This was from Bill Maher on last week's "Real Time."

FLDS (Warren Jeffs' polygamist outfit)is to the Roman Catholic Church what a mortgage defaulter is to Bear Stearns. If your cult only sexually abuses a few dozen children in an isolated location, you get broken up and prosecuted. If your cult abuses thousands of children across the world over a half century (that we know of), you get parades for your leader in every country. One mortgage defaulter gets thrown out of his house. Bear Stearns defaults on thousands of mortgages and gets bailed out.

Sack

Sid_Vicious
04-20-2008, 12:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was from Bill Maher on last week's "Real Time."

FLDS (Warren Jeffs' polygamist outfit)is to the Roman Catholic Church what a mortgage defaulter is to Bear Stearns. If your cult only sexually abuses a few dozen children in an isolated location, you get broken up and prosecuted. If your cult abuses thousands of children across the world over a half century (that we know of), you get parades for your leader in every country. One mortgage defaulter gets thrown out of his house. Bear Stearns defaults on thousands of mortgages and gets bailed out.

Sack</div></div>

Ain't that the sick truth!? sid

DickLeonard
04-20-2008, 12:31 PM
Yes and George Bush thanks the Roman Catholics for getting him elected.

Of course as a Roman Catholic I get a free ride I can commit any sin and receive Holy Communion without confession. ####

sack316
04-20-2008, 03:07 PM
I've thought about converting before. Just always seemed kinda convenient to do whatever I want for all my days, and then when I'm on my death bed just say "sorry 'bout all that" and be good to go /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Sack

Sid_Vicious
04-20-2008, 04:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes and George Bush thanks the Roman Catholics for getting him elected.

Of course as a Roman Catholic I get a free ride I can commit any sin and receive Holy Communion without confession. #### </div></div>

All of what you said #### gives me solice in believing in "my internal" God. It ain't rocket science, we all SHOULD know right from wrong, and yet we need also feel "comfort" from persucution, especially to ourselves. Main-est thing for all to understand is that our personal feelings surrounding the world politics are a piss-poor excuse to war another nation, especially when that decision is made by fools and greedy b@stards. All in all, the USA is more than bad, in comparison to the fundamentalist of Islam. We here are supposed to be an example. jm2c...sid

Gayle in MD
04-21-2008, 11:33 AM
Sack,
I really like Bill Maher. His humor has a lot of truth in it, IMO.

I feel the same way about the Catholic Church as many felt about Obama's staying in his church after such anti-American sentiment went on, apparently, for years. I could never remain Catholic, after learning about how they handled, covered up, and allowed those pedofiles to move on to greener pastures, excuse the pun.

Did you notice the Pope's Prada Shoes? LOL...

hondo
04-21-2008, 01:10 PM
Maher's politics- thumbs up, even though he is a tad too biased for me.
His religious views- 2 thumbs down.
Like so many he equates God with organized religion.
They have very little to do with each other IMHO.

Deeman3
04-21-2008, 01:37 PM
Hondo,

Amen!

sack316
04-21-2008, 10:40 PM
Agreed with ya there as well Hondo!

But I did think it was one helluva analogy

Sack

eg8r
04-22-2008, 06:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">His religious views- 2 thumbs down.
Like so many he equates God with organized religion.
They have very little to do with each other IMHO.
</div></div> Isn't this the truth.

eg8r

Deeman3
04-22-2008, 07:20 AM
Wow, we can agree on something! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r
04-22-2008, 07:30 AM
Religion ties us all together. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

sack316
04-22-2008, 12:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Religion ties us all together. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r </div></div>

Does that make us all back-asswards from the rest of the world?

Sack

hondo
04-22-2008, 01:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, we can agree on something! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

I'm starting to feel the love on here. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

SKennedy
04-22-2008, 03:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maher's politics- thumbs up, even though he is a tad too biased for me.
His religious views- 2 thumbs down.
Like so many he equates God with organized religion.
They have very little to do with each other IMHO. </div></div>

Something several of us can agree on and it has nothing to do with politics? WoW! There must really be a God!

wolfdancer
04-23-2008, 12:56 AM
Did you notice the Pope's Prada Shoes? LOL...
there's an old, very old related joke about Cardinal Francis Spellman meeting the Pope, but I can't repeat it, being Catholic myself. It has been reported though that "Franny, as he was known
to assorted Broadway chorus boys and others" said this about the Pope:
(Pope John XXIII). But when he returned home, the Cardinal announced his disdain. 'He's no Pope,' Spellman scoffed to his aides. 'He should be selling bananas.'"
Most Priests live exemplary lives, as do most Scout leaders, teachers, etc....but it only takes a few to give the rest a bad reputation.

In Morris West's book "Shoes of the Fisherman" the Catholic church gives away all of it's tremendous wealth to stave off famine in China and prevent a war...( somehow, I can't see that ever happening)...and in the greatest miscast in film history...Anthony Quinn plays the Pope....
The punch line to the joke was the pope after seeing the Cardinals Prada? shoes, and thinking he was one upped says "Francis, you bitch"
Of course we RCs never repeat bad jokes like that....

Gayle in MD
04-23-2008, 05:51 AM
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Made me laugh out loud! Too funny! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Deeman3
04-23-2008, 07:29 AM
I loved Shoes of the Fisherman, even the Movie with Quinn. I have to agree with someone on here who said that if the church did not do something radical to solve the child abuse problem, I'd have to leave it.

As some of us have said, faith and religeon are certainly different things. The Texas problems are certainly showing us that right now. How terrible to have to separate the kids form their mothers but do you leave them exposed to the abuse? I don't know. I do know many will certainly suffer more abuse in the Texas system where many will be stuck in alcoholic and abusive homes with folks in it for the money. I am not sure which is worse but have not seen the government solve problems with a few kids, much less over 400.

I think they would have been better served to separate the mothers along with the kids and get help for the entire family minus the men. Of course, if some of the men are not abusing the family, we may have tromped all over their rights. Big problem...

Gayle in MD
04-23-2008, 08:59 AM
I am very much idsgusted about those mothers. Now I'll be accused of being a man hater, I guess, but isn't this organization pretty much the work of men who took power over others in the name of God?

I believe that Motherhood supercedes everything else. I don't see those women as victims, but as women who took the path of least resistance. Don't tell me that they didn't recall how they themselves felt, when forced to have sex with old men they were not in love with.

This is an example of organized religion at it's worst. As far as I'm concerned the Mothers are as guilty as the men who performed what amounts to the rape of children. I have no respect for those women. The decision to think, is the basis of self-esteem, and although I realize that when one has known nothing but opression, and been under the control of despots like those men, their whole lives, once they saw their own children being abused in the same way they had been abused, they could have gone to the authorities for help, and saved their kids.

The whole thing comes down to kinky sex, and using God and religion to justify rape. I think those women should be forced to get psychological help, and each one of those children should be removed from mothers who failed to protect them.

Everytime I see them, all dressed up like shepford wives, in the same damned dress pattern, and acting like they're innocent angels, I get furious! I have to turn the channel.

Guess this would have been the end of Mitts campaign, huh? I've always been repulsed by Mormans, anyway. One of Jim's cousins married one, and they have graced the world with fifteen kids! What kind of ego does it take to think that you're so special that the world needs fifteen of your reproduction of youself, when the world is eating itself alive?

When are these religious organizations going to address global food, energy and water shortages, and their collective stand against abortion and birth control?

There's the Pope, all dressed up in his Prada shoes, making excuses for an organization that abused thousands of children, living in a palace, like a king, and preaching the evils of birth control to a world that is wrought with the problems of overpopulation.

How damed ignorant can people be? Those women are just as responsible for what they allowed those men to do to their kids as the perpetrators, IMO. Once one becomes a Mother, brings a life into this world, there is no excuse for allowing anyone to hurt ones children. If that doesn't snap one into reality, something is wrong. They were signing up for food stamps, decietfully, knowing that what they were doing was against the law, and they were fine that the rest of us were paying for it.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
04-23-2008, 09:17 AM
I think you are being unfair to those women. If they were raised in that environment since birth, they don't know the difference in right and wrong, much like kids indoctrinated into communist households.

To them, ever word they have heard support's the world view they were provided and, in fact, probably see this as predicted by what those dirty old men taught them all these years.

It is a little like the American Indians or Eskimos in the way we took them form their native culture which, if you study their dexual habits, were outrageous in our eyes. Was it right? I don't know. But to blame these poor women who grew up in this idealogy from birth is not fair to them. They need help, not condemnation.

SKennedy
04-23-2008, 09:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Once one becomes a Mother, brings a life into this world, there is no excuse for allowing anyone to hurt ones children. If that doesn't snap one into reality, something is wrong.
Gayle in Md.
</div></div>

Happens all the time...not just in the name of any god or religion. Mothers abandon children or forsake them for other men, and vice versa. I've seen parents forsake their children for a "new" life filled with selfish indulgence. My wife worked child protective services in Texas for about 12 years. She always seemed most upset by the parent that allowed the other adult to perpetrate the abuse...the mother who knew and allowed the stepfather to abuse her daughter, etc.
And while I don't agree with the Mormon church, not all Mormons believe or behave the same way....same as any other "religion."
This thing in Texas is a travesty. However, in the end the state won't make it any better for the children. The adults made their own decisions...and for some of them this may be the only life they know, but the real tragedy and the real victims are the children. You may need a license drive a car and in some places you may need one to have a dog, but you don't need one to conceive a child!

wolfdancer
04-23-2008, 09:28 AM
Dee, I liked both the book and the movie....also was a fan of Quinns, but since he usually played a "dark" role,and now .......the Pope???
But you're right...somehow it worked

Gayle in MD
04-23-2008, 09:33 AM
You may well be right, Deeman, but when it comes to being a Mother, no man comes before ones children. They may have been victims themselves, but that was no excuse for allowing the same fate to strike down their own kids. They knew damned well they were braking the laws of this country, and stealing food stamps, to line the pockets of a wealthy organization, while other kids in this country, starve, and that is not something I can give them a bye for doing.

Yes, they were victims themselves, but I am of the belief that Motherhood supercedes all other alliances. Maybe I'm confisuing my own repulsion over women too weak to take a stand for fear of male disapproval, with the many ills of organized religion, or even the Stockholm effect, which I know is a fact, but if an individual doesn't have an automatic emotional response to protect their own kids, something that should happen, automatically, regardless, they have more issues than just having been opressed, IMO.

This is one time when I think the role the women played, as Mothers, was just as wrong and just as bad as what the men did.

It reminds me of stories in the news about women who were abused by their husbands, looking the other way while the same husband abuses their daughters sexually. Again, taking the path of least resistance. I may feel sorry for them, but as a Mother, I can't overlook their complete failure to put their children first, and protect them, even if it takes the last breath in their body.

This is one time when I will fully admit that my feeling may well be unreasonable, and probably if I had personal contact with one of those women, and held their hand, and heard their story, I would probably get all welled up with compassion. When I watch it on TV, none of that kind of emotion is there, just an automatic disgust over Mothers, mentally lazy women, with no courage, who failed to protect their children at all costs. I'm not saying I'm correct about this, it's just how I feel.

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
04-23-2008, 09:39 AM
Dee, I'd have to agree with you about the women....it's all they have ever known.
that kind of closed from society, communal living, is more like a cult, then a religion...
For a few similarities of that kind of control...Jim Jones, David Koresh, even Charles Manson

Deeman3
04-23-2008, 09:41 AM
And I can't really say you are wrong. I just know that indoctrination, not matter the subject, is very strong when done form early childhood.

I just hope the cure is not worse than the disease and with the governement helping, it could become very sad, even for these women and children.

Gayle in MD
04-24-2008, 06:55 AM
Deeman,
Let me ask you this, was there anything about the way your own parents raised you, that you didn't agree with? Were there any changes you made, different from their rules, and parenting style, that once you were grown, you took a second look, and decided that you would do it differently with your own children?

All of us are programed to some degree as children. While I agree, these women had a lot stacked against them, some of them, put their children first, and found the courage to break away. I believe that the decision to think, was the foundation for their courage. We do all have brains, and the ability to use them.

I'm sure, if I could sit with one or more of them, hear her story, on a personal level, I would certainly have some compassion for the devastating results of being brain washed in the traditional methods used all over the world by organized religion. Millions of people experience the same kind of religion inspired, group-think, peer pressure everyday. As a mother, I cannot accept that as an excuse for failing to protect ones children. Women who are abused by their husbands, as one of our posters pointed out, are a good comparison to these women. Some of them take the path of least resistance, also. Some of them, inspired by their determination to protect their children, break away, and seek assistance from others. You are right, they need, and needed help, and motherhood should have been the experience that prompted them to seek it, IMO.

Do you think these women didn't know they were breaking the law, when they went out to sign up for food stamps? Do you think they had no inkling that the world around them viewed what they were involved in as unlawful, knowing that only the first wife was legally married in the eyes of the law? They didn't have to lie to get those food stamps?

Sorry, I am not saying that my views of these women are fair, correct, compassionate, or even reasonable. I am saying that I cannot have any respect for any mother, who does not protect her own children, and when they fail to do so, something that should be an automatic human response, is missing. They surely knew what it felt like to be forced, themselves, as young kids, to have sex with those old men, or young men, with whom they had no sexual attrraction. I believe we're talking about human responses, and while it is very true that their own religious brain washing didn't provide them with the mental tools required to have the same skills which one who had had a more traditional up-bringing would have, they were still human beings, with a brain, and knowledge that there was something different about their way of life, that had to be hidden, and kept under wraps, and which was illegal. That should have given them a clue, and provided enough doubt to lead them to THINK. Sure, it would have called for some courage, the kind of courage that should be a human response of a mother, to protect her own children.

I admit, that when it comes to this particular subject, I am short on compassion. As adults, regardless of our history, we have options, and a conscience. Failing to think is not an excuse in my book.

Gayle in MD
04-24-2008, 07:00 AM
Deeman,
Let me ask you this, was there anything about the way your own parents raised you, that you didn't agree with? Were there any changes you made, different from their rules, and parenting style, that once you were grown, you took a second look, and decided that you would do it differently with your own children?

All of us are programed to some degree as children. While I agree, these women had a lot stacked against them, some of them, put their children first, and found the courage to break away. I believe that the decision to think, was the foundation for their courage. We do all have brains, and the ability to use them.

I'm sure, if I could sit with one or more of them, hear her story, on a personal level, I would certainly have some compassion for the devastating results of being brain washed in the traditional methods used all over the world by organized religion. Millions of people experience the same kind of religion inspired, group-think, peer pressure everyday. As a mother, I cannot accept that as an excuse for failing to protect ones children. Women who are abused by their husbands, as one of our posters pointed out, are a good comparison to these women. Some of them take the path of least resistance, also. Some of them, inspired by their determination to protect their children, break away, and seek assistance from others. You are right, they need, and needed help, and motherhood should have been the experience that prompted them to seek it, IMO.

Do you think these women didn't know they were breaking the law, when they went out to sign up for food stamps? Do you think they had no inkling that the world around them viewed what they were involved in as unlawful, knowing that only the first wife was legally married in the eyes of the law? They didn't have to lie to get those food stamps?

Sorry, I am not saying that my views of these women are fair, correct, compassionate, or even reasonable. I am saying that I cannot have any respect for any mother, who does not protect her own children, and when they fail to do so, something that should be an automatic human response, is missing. They surely knew what it felt like to be forced, themselves, as young kids, to have sex with those old men, or young men, with whom they had no sexual attrraction. I believe we're talking about human responses, and while it is very true that their own religious brain washing didn't provide them with the mental tools required to have the same skills which one who had had a more traditional up-bringing would have, they were still human beings, with a brain, and knowledge that there was something different about their way of life, that had to be hidden, and kept under wraps, and which was illegal. That should have given them a clue, and provided enough doubt to lead them to THINK. Sure, it would have called for some courage, the kind of courage that should be a human response of a mother, to protect her own children.

I admit, that when it comes to this particular subject, I am short on compassion. As adults, regardless of our history, we have options, and a conscience. Failing to think is not an excuse in my book.

Deeman3
04-24-2008, 07:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Deeman,
Let me ask you this, was there anything about the way your own parents raised you, that you didn't agree with? Were there any changes you made, different from their rules, and parenting style, that once you were grown, you took a second look, and decided that you would do it differently with your own children?

My parents were Christian Scientists. I grew up in that environment. My parents never kept me from medical care or insisted I beleive in their faith. I am a Christian but am not very attached to a Church or doctrine. I found much in their faith that helped me but chose my own belief system. I do not beleive, ever, inputting your faith in a man or in doctrine. I believe thre are only two critical elements to my faith and they impact no person outside myself with the exception fo some influence on my children when they were young. They were always encouraged to find their own way, which they have, very successfully. I believe cults are for weak people with obvious problems. I believe they have little to do with God or faith and serve a very few person's personal interests and desires.

All of us are programed to some degree as children. While I agree, these women had a lot stacked against them, some of them, put their children first, and found the courage to break away. I believe that the decision to think, was the foundation for their courage. We do all have brains, and the ability to use them.

However, some are weak minded, abused and do not have the personal strength to think for themselves. That is exactly why they find themselves in these situations. Like many abused people, they can't understand a different path.

I'm sure, if I could sit with one or more of them, hear her story, on a personal level, I would certainly have some compassion for the devastating results of being brain washed in the traditional methods used all over the world by organized religion. Millions of people experience the same kind of religion inspired, group-think, peer pressure everyday. As a mother, I cannot accept that as an excuse for failing to protect ones children. Women who are abused by their husbands, as one of our posters pointed out, are a good comparison to these women. Some of them take the path of least resistance, also. Some of them, inspired by their determination to protect their children, break away, and seek assistance from others. You are right, they need, and needed help, and motherhood should have been the experience that prompted them to seek it, IMO.

Do you think these women didn't know they were breaking the law, when they went out to sign up for food stamps? Do you think they had no inkling that the world around them viewed what they were involved in as unlawful, knowing that only the first wife was legally married in the eyes of the law? They didn't have to lie to get those food stamps?

Civil law does not motivate people who believe they are answering to a higher power, weather they really are or not. A left wing kook who thinks he/she is doing good when bombing a government office will rationize their actions and to them, it it "legal".

Sorry, I am not saying that my views of these women are fair, correct, compassionate, or even reasonable. I am saying that I cannot have any respect for any mother, who does not protect her own children, and when they fail to do so, something that should be an automatic human response, is missing. They surely knew what it felt like to be forced, themselves, as young kids, to have sex with those old men, or young men, with whom they had no sexual attrraction. I believe we're talking about human responses, and while it is very true that their own religious brain washing didn't provide them with the mental tools required to have the same skills which one who had had a more traditional up-bringing would have, they were still human beings, with a brain, and knowledge that there was something different about their way of life, that had to be hidden, and kept under wraps, and which was illegal. That should have given them a clue, and provided enough doubt to lead them to THINK. Sure, it would have called for some courage, the kind of courage that should be a human response of a mother, to protect her own children.

You are viewing this fomr the perspective of a safe, sane and independent person. It may become harder if you were in different shoes.

I admit, that when it comes to this particular subject, I am short on compassion. As adults, regardless of our history, we have options, and a conscience. Failing to think is not an excuse in my book.

Many of these women are mentally ill, in strict terms. I would hope we could help, rather than condemn them. As I said, yoiu and I might fight for some pretty outlandish actions for native Americans and others who have different cultural views in some cases. What can happen in these places is very bad but as a percentage there is much more real abuse both sexual and violent in our urban society but we say it is just a part of the bad world. I wish these women had the power and strength to step away but, of course, millions upon millions look away around the world in cases just as evil.

I say, keep the women together with the kids and see if they can be salvaged. if not, give the kids then to the foster abusers.

</div></div>

Gayle in MD
04-24-2008, 07:53 AM
You are right, they do need help. I am admitting to you, my reaction to them is probably not appropriately compassionate. I am all out of compassion when it comes to parental abuse. I am also admitting to you that I cannot muster much compassion for any mother when it comes to failing to protect her children, and I don't care what her past was about.

IMO, the leaders and fiollower of any religious organization who have abused women, and/or children, or covered it up, or aided it in any manner, should be prosecuted for their crimes. Failure to make legal choices in life is no excuse, IMO.

People who take part in abusing their children, for example, are not forgiven in a legal sense just because they were victims of abuse as children. I see no reason why these women should get off for their part in these sexual abuses, when others do not. They aided and abetted the men who abused their own children, and regardless of why or how, non of it could have happened without their own failure to protect those kids. That's the bottom line on this, and IMO, Religious indoctrination is no excuse. We don't provide it for terrorists, who think they are doing God's work, nor liberals, to use your example, of bombings by liberals, nor conservative right wing Christians, who bomb abortion clinics, and shoot down doctors, and there is no reason why those women shouldn't be held to the same standard all other must meet. They were adults, with brains. That means they meet the standard of the law. They weren't retarded.

The women who shot her preacher husband, had been abused by him, and she is in jail, without her kids. Those two brothers in California, who shot both their parents, dead, had been sexually abused by their father, and they are both in jail. If you are an adult, and you know you are breaking the law, and even when you don't know, ignorance of the law is no excuse, prosecution is appropriate.

In my case, I view it from the point of view of being a mother. Loads of people who break the law are mentally ill. We don't let them all off just because of their pasts, or their mental illnesses. The woman who drowned all her kids, was so mentally ill, and really, I cried loads of tears for that women, because it was so obvious how sick she really was, but she still went to jail.

Why should these women not be held to the letter of the law, just like all others. I don't buy it that they had no options. They had options, but they made a choice to allow thier children to go through the same misery that they themselves had suffered through. Failing to think it through, is no excuse. They have proven themselves unfit mothers.



Gayle...

SKennedy
04-24-2008, 04:42 PM
Deeman,
You are "good" people! Wish I had known you when you were in Longview!
If you get through this way (Tyler), please give me a call or look me up.
Steve K.

wolfdancer
04-24-2008, 05:07 PM
I once lived in a very small town in NH...our news sources were the Sunday NY times, and the Wednesday Christian Science Monitor. i also worked for the reader (similar to Pastor) for the local Christian Scientists. I've been to the mother Church in Boston, but never quite bought into "The Keys To The Scriptures"
I'm sure if I did, since they don't believe in death or disease...I could live as long as Noah.....but wonder if my SS benefits would run out beforehand?

Sid_Vicious
04-24-2008, 07:23 PM
Gayle...I don't know when I've been more proud of any post you ever made. martin

Deeman3
04-25-2008, 07:30 AM
Be proud to meet you Steve. I think we have much in common.

Deeman3
04-25-2008, 07:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I once lived in a very small town in NH...our news sources were the Sunday NY times, and the Wednesday Christian Science Monitor. i also worked for the reader (similar to Pastor) for the local Christian Scientists. I've been to the mother Church in Boston, but never quite bought into "The Keys To The Scriptures"
I'm sure if I did, since they don't believe in death or disease...I could live as long as Noah.....but wonder if my SS benefits would run out beforehand? </div></div>


I think there is a lot of good in that faith but, like all organized faith, it can let you down. My parents were wonderful examples of how to apply the good things within it and let me decide my own path. I can't say anything bad about the people I knew in the church but it was just not for me.

wolfdancer
04-25-2008, 08:49 AM
I never meant to imply that the "Church" and it's members do not do good.

SKennedy
04-25-2008, 09:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I once lived in a very small town in NH...our news sources were the Sunday NY times, and the Wednesday Christian Science Monitor. i also worked for the reader (similar to Pastor) for the local Christian Scientists. I've been to the mother Church in Boston, but never quite bought into "The Keys To The Scriptures"
I'm sure if I did, since they don't believe in death or disease...I could live as long as Noah.....but wonder if my SS benefits would run out beforehand? </div></div>


I think there is a lot of good in that faith but, like all organized faith, it can let you down. My parents were wonderful examples of how to apply the good things within it and let me decide my own path. I can't say anything bad about the people I knew in the church but it was just not for me. </div></div>

I've told my children that even parents will let you down. And that ties in with what most of this thread has been about!

Deeman3
04-25-2008, 03:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never meant to imply that the "Church" and it's members do not do good. </div></div>

I didn't take it that way. i may have just answered in a way that sounded defensive but I just never had a bad experience with them but I know some have.

Gayle in MD
04-26-2008, 06:45 AM
Thank you Martin,
I'm afraid I have no compassion for unfit parents, ever, under any circumstances. Now, it has come out that some of those children were only thirteen years old, and have had as many as five children, from age thirteen. In our world, three out of five women/girls suffer sexual abuse. In our own country, one in five, and it is said to be much more if all unreported cases came to light. Every single sexist statement made by any man, contributes to this attitude of, "Oh well, so what, it happens all the time."

That precious bible people tout, was the basis for sexual abuse of women, yet people want to deny that there is more doctrine for human abuse right in that bible, against women, blacks, and gays. If this outrageous sexual abuse organization in Texas, isn't more proof that organized religion can be, and often is the basis for human suffering, abuse, sexism, and sexual abuse, I don't know what is.

Atleast twenty-five, (with more children, girls, expected to surface as this process in Texas goes forward) were under age when they were forced to have sex with these repulsive men. This was nothing more than religious based sex slavery.

I am so sick and tired of seeing organized religion covering up these kinds of abuses, either promoting them, or looking the other way, as did the Catholic Church, I have no compassion for anyone who takes part or aides these abusers, and to think that in this case, it was the mothers who knew that abuse themselves, and yet they failed to protect their own daughters from suffering the same abuse, I say throw their asses right in jail with the men, sexual diviants, they aided and abetted in this sick, disgusting, operation.

Why is it required to give these mothers a bye on all this, just because of their religion? We surely wouldn't dream of doing that for anyone else in our society. It is our duty to stand against every kind of inhumanity we learn about. Painting religious based abuses against others as somehow different from other abuses, is not reasonable. They should be made an example of, and prosecuted. Some things in life should inspire our human empathy, regardless of how we have been influenced. This is nothing but another case of men abuses women, and using God for their disgusting behavior. It is apalling to think that law enforcment waited so long to raid that organization, and it is apalling to think that other Mormons haven't spoken out, and exposed this kind of bahavior themselves, against these kinds of cults.

I appreciate having a friend like you who can understand where I'm coming from, it is meaningful to me. Thank you.

Love,
Gayle

Gayle in MD
04-26-2008, 06:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like so many he equates God with organized religion.
</div></div>

<span style="color: #000066">Very true, and also, God, has nothing to do withrunning a country, and that is why our founders kept both God, and Religion out of..."We the people, in order to form a more perfect union..." To bad that we now have a segment of right wing, radical fundamentalists in our country who think that our founders were wrong, and that our government should be religious based. It is a threat to our deomcratic principles, and must be stopped. As an admirer of Goldwater, I dare say were he alive today, he would be outraged.

Love,
Gayle</span>

SKennedy
04-28-2008, 03:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you Martin,
I'm afraid I have no compassion for unfit parents, ever, under any circumstances. Now, it has come out that some of those children were only thirteen years old, and have had as many as five children, from age thirteen. In our world, three out of five women/girls suffer sexual abuse. In our own country, one in five, and it is said to be much more if all unreported cases came to light. Every single sexist statement made by any man, contributes to this attitude of, "Oh well, so what, it happens all the time."

That precious bible people tout, was the basis for sexual abuse of women, yet people want to deny that there is more doctrine for human abuse right in that bible, against women, blacks, and gays. If this outrageous sexual abuse organization in Texas, isn't more proof that organized religion can be, and often is the basis for human suffering, abuse, sexism, and sexual abuse, I don't know what is.

Atleast twenty-five, (with more children, girls, expected to surface as this process in Texas goes forward) were under age when they were forced to have sex with these repulsive men. This was nothing more than religious based sex slavery.

I am so sick and tired of seeing organized religion covering up these kinds of abuses, either promoting them, or looking the other way, as did the Catholic Church, I have no compassion for anyone who takes part or aides these abusers, and to think that in this case, it was the mothers who knew that abuse themselves, and yet they failed to protect their own daughters from suffering the same abuse, I say throw their asses right in jail with the men, sexual diviants, they aided and abetted in this sick, disgusting, operation.

Why is it required to give these mothers a bye on all this, just because of their religion? We surely wouldn't dream of doing that for anyone else in our society. It is our duty to stand against every kind of inhumanity we learn about. Painting religious based abuses against others as somehow different from other abuses, is not reasonable. They should be made an example of, and prosecuted. Some things in life should inspire our human empathy, regardless of how we have been influenced. This is nothing but another case of men abuses women, and using God for their disgusting behavior. It is apalling to think that law enforcment waited so long to raid that organization, and it is apalling to think that other Mormons haven't spoken out, and exposed this kind of bahavior themselves, against these kinds of cults.

I appreciate having a friend like you who can understand where I'm coming from, it is meaningful to me. Thank you.

Love,
Gayle

</div></div>

I am somwhat familiar with the Bible and can honestly say that nowhere have I seen any advocacy of abuse against women, blacks or gays. And if you see otherwise, it is clearly a demonstration to readers of this forum how your view is misconstrued. I will admit that misinformed people, and those who just wish to unjustly hate others, do use the Bible to justify abuse against these groups. However, those truly familiar with the Bible know otherwise. People may have used the Bible as a "basis" for abuse, but the Bible I read actually says something completely contrary!