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SKennedy
04-22-2008, 02:57 PM
What do you guys think about league play time-outs? I know they are necessary, but we have a team captain that seems to call them just because he can and wants to show that he can. All of us, including me, get agitated when he does this to us, but he claims it is our ego getting in the way. He is right on that some of the time, but often I think it's more about his ego. He claims that as the captain he has that right and will exercise that right any time he sees fit. We'll be down on a shot getting ready to stroke and he'll holler time-out! It just really takes us out of our game. He's a great captain and we are a decent team, but this part of the game for us is truly annoying. Any suggestions? Do we just need to check our egos at the door (remember we are pool players)? If he's not there I serve as captain and I generally do not call any time-outs. If my teammate wants one, he or she calls for it. Otherwise, I leave them alone!

Wally_in_Cincy
04-22-2008, 03:04 PM
If he's a good captain otherwise you may have to overlook it. My captain does that too but not as much as he used to.

If he's calling when you are down on the shot that's bad, but sometimes necessary.

I have no problem with coaching. Sometimes a seocnd pair of eyes can see something I don't. The only problem is if it goes too long. If you can't do it in 30 seconds or i minute tops, that's a problem. It makes for a long night.

You could always talk to him about it

BigRigTom
04-22-2008, 03:45 PM
I am co-captain on both our 8 ball and 9 ball teams but I serve as coach on both teams so I can give you the other side of this issue.
I used to call time outs way more quickly than I should have and I learned the hard way that every player must play his own game in his own way. That realiztion actually made my job as coach much easier. I will now call time out with reluctance but the coach can not leave the time out entirely up to the player.

Like Wally says the player will often not see an option or consider an option that he should because he in engrossed in playing his type of game. That can cause tunnel vision and tunnel vision is seldom a good thing. Players should try to be open minded about shot options and sometimes they need to be reminded to play a good safe instead of ALWAYS going for the shot.

The coach needs to be considerate of the players ability or lack of ability. Telling a low skill level player to play a difficult safe or execute a masse or jump can be ridiculous. On the other hand showing that player how to play a great safe that will result in ball in hand can make the difference in winning and losing.

Most of our players are 3's and 4's. All of them have unique personalities and they all shoot differently. It is a challenge to coach a lot of different people in all sorts of situations week after week. The players need to cut that coach a little slack at times but we have a policy "If after a time out the player properly executes and makes the shot it is ALL to his credit, on the other hand if he does not execute the shot it is ALL the coaches fault!" Everyone on the team will call out "Bad Coaching!" when the player misses or messes up after a time out.

I like that because it gives our players a free ride on misses if they will just try to do what the coach tells them. They still get all the cheers if they succeed and none of the blame if they fail. Try it, it works for us.

SKennedy
04-22-2008, 03:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wally_in_Cincy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If he's a good captain otherwise you may have to overlook it. My captain does that too but not as much as he used to.

If he's calling when you are down on the shot that's bad, but sometimes necessary.

I have no problem with coaching. Sometimes a seocnd pair of eyes can see something I don't. The only problem is if it goes too long. If you can't do it in 30 seconds or i minute tops, that's a problem. It makes for a long night.

You could always talk to him about it </div></div>

We've all talked with him about it and all feel the same way. He is very defensive on the subject. He means well. And at times I do see why he calls it on lower skilled players, but never see whay he calls it on me!! LOL Once he did call time out when I shot a very nice run and was about to shoot the 8 ball for the win. He told me he just wanted me to slow down my pace a little. Slow down? If I'm running balls who cares? Don't want to get back home too early with the wife? Well, my pace is always faster than his and I feel and do better with a faster pace. He could tell how unhappy I was with him and it made for an uncomfortable night (for him).

Like you said..he's a good captain and a great guy....we'll just live with him the way he is....

SKennedy
04-22-2008, 03:53 PM
You are a mature and experienced player and it shows. Our captain hasn't really been playing all that long and is in his late 20's. He's just learned a great deal and has come along quickly. No doubt as he matures he will use more discretion on the time outs.

I do need a time out once in a while for just the reasons you mention...including not seeing a defensive shot, etc.

Thanks for the advice fellows! We play tonight and we really need to win 4 or 5 points tonight!

JJFSTAR
04-22-2008, 04:41 PM
SKennedy this is going to sound very bias I know that already because I am a team captain. In our league there are no time outs and coaching in any way is actually a foul.

It is my opinion that you and your team need to cut him the slack that is his due. Remember this; he probably coordinates with the league, sends in the fees, finds out where your are playing, contacts people to tell them where and when to be, makes the roster, sends in the scores, attends captains meetings, recruits team members and referee's the match for all of you. Why does he do this? What does he get out of it? I will tell you two things he definitely gets out of it; higher pressure and lower concentration for his own game.

Team captain is usually a job that gets very little if any thanks or recognition. Usually it is quite the opposite most of what I have gotten over the years is just a lot of questioning and complaining and then the season ends and we have another trophy on the wall we go out to dinner with our winnings and I save enough to pay for the player fees next season. One team member in the 8 years that I have been the captain has actually thanked me for doing all that I do for the team. I was the former co-captain of the team.

He is probably one of the better players on your team. He does see more than you do simply because he is an observer. It actually goes much deeper than just the game at hand, he is seeing the whole match not just that game.

I have found over the years that most players are egocentric to some degree. Quite often they worry about their own game; situation or whatever has to do with them at the time rather than being focused on the match and the season as a whole.

Talk to him sure but first tell him that you arenít telling him how to run a team or a match but rather that YOU have a problem reestablishing focus when he calls a time out and that he should consider that effect relative to how worth it is. And thank him for all he does, you will be one of the few who ever does anywhere.

BigRigTom
04-22-2008, 05:23 PM
Tap, Tap, Tap!
Well said JJFStar!

Smile(s) and Thank You(s) are free to give away but to the reciever they can be priceless. Why we don't all pass them out a lot more frequently I'll never understand. I am too selfish with them myself, so thanks for that little reminder.

Everyone go to league this next week and say thank you to the Captain....bet it makes him or her feel GREAT!

pooltchr
04-22-2008, 05:46 PM
I have on occasion called a time out when a player is down on their shot. Usually, I have watched them trying to decide which shot to take, and I don't know what their decision will be until they are ready to shoot. With the better players, and most of the time with all the players, rather than call "Time Out!", I would be more likely to ask "Steve, do you want to talk about this one?" and leave the decision to the player.
Steve

Bambu
04-22-2008, 07:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you guys think about league play time-outs? I know they are necessary, but we have a team captain that seems to call them just because he can and wants to show that he can. All of us, including me, get agitated when he does this to us, but he claims it is our ego getting in the way. He is right on that some of the time, but often I think it's more about his ego. He claims that as the captain he has that right and will exercise that right any time he sees fit. We'll be down on a shot getting ready to stroke and he'll holler time-out! It just really takes us out of our game. He's a great captain and we are a decent team, but this part of the game for us is truly annoying. Any suggestions? Do we just need to check our egos at the door (remember we are pool players)? If he's not there I serve as captain and I generally do not call any time-outs. If my teammate wants one, he or she calls for it. Otherwise, I leave them alone!</div></div>

I think its just a matter of knowing who wants coaching, and who doesnt. There are 3's on my team that refuse coaching, and even offer their own advice to anyone who will listen. There are other 3's who know that a good time out can win them games.
I've also seen some bad timeouts. Bad advice leading to bad rythm. I guess it all comes down to how good your coach is, and how much the team trusts him. If I didnt value his opinion, I wouldnt want any timeouts called for me. If I did, I would have no problem with it.

Sid_Vicious
04-22-2008, 08:38 PM
I am in a humble situation these days, I play on a TAP league where time-outs(2) are permissible, and even though I THINK I know my own strategy, I have to say, "I have been helped with the simplicity of a finish" by these calls for an out. I have no emotion over winning or losing due to advice, after all, that is what the system is set up for, and my captain does it well. Yea, I see bristling on the neck on peeps when the call is made, but that in itself adds to the mahyem to the event, which ain't team-like. jm2c...sid

Rich R.
04-22-2008, 09:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SKennedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you guys think about league play time-outs? I know they are necessary, but we have a team captain that seems to call them just because he can and wants to show that he can. All of us, including me, get agitated when he does this to us, but he claims it is our ego getting in the way. He is right on that some of the time, but often I think it's more about his ego. He claims that as the captain he has that right and will exercise that right any time he sees fit. We'll be down on a shot getting ready to stroke and he'll holler time-out! It just really takes us out of our game. He's a great captain and we are a decent team, but this part of the game for us is truly annoying. Any suggestions? Do we just need to check our egos at the door (remember we are pool players)? If he's not there I serve as captain and I generally do not call any time-outs. If my teammate wants one, he or she calls for it. Otherwise, I leave them alone! </div></div>
My captain does the same thing, or, I should say, he does the same thing with the other players on the team. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif
Although we are the same SL level now, he used to do that to me when I was a lower SL. I was a lower SL because I was fairly new to the league and I hadn't played a lot of pool for many years. I can honestly say, I had much more knowledge than my ability could execute. Also, it was clear early on that my captain plays a table much different than I do. Neither of us is right or wrong, we just play different.
After calling time outs many times, while I was ready to pull the trigger, I let him know that I didn't appreciate it. He still didn't learn, so I would just ignore him and take my shot. He finally got the hint and he doesn't do that to me any longer.
Keep in mind, if he calls a time out while I'm still standing, I welcome his input. I just don't care for him calling a time out once I make a decision and get down on the shot.
We are now equal SL's and he is the division rep for the league. Our league is totally in house, so, when I play, he usually makes his rounds and touches base with the other teams in the league. We get along much better this way. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

When I coach other players, I do try to wait until they make a decision on the shot. If it looks like they are going to take the right shot, I don't bother them. If it looks like they are taking the wrong shot, I step in, but I try to do it as early as possible. As someone else mentioned, when a player seems puzzled, I tend to ask if they want to talk about it, rather than just call a time out.

Billy_Bob
04-23-2008, 05:56 AM
I will say I have learned quite a bit of priceless information from timeouts when the person giving me the advice was a master pool player.

Also that it wrecked my motivation to play when the advice was from a very selfish jerk who did not want anyone to play better than himself and would intentionally give bad advice to players on HIS TEAM doing better than him on a particular evening (different team). He wanted to be the "star" every tournament!

So I guess it can be quite a good learning experience (having options pointed out which you may not have considered - safeties, etc.) or it can be a nightmare in the wrong hands.

dg-in-centralpa
04-23-2008, 08:21 AM
I play in two different leagues and we don't allow timeouts/coaching. While it would be helpful, it makes for a long night. We stopped doing this years ago. The general consensus was, everyone's been playing long enough to know that if you create a problem, it's up to you to get out of it. Not good for the newer players or players who don't know how to play position, bank, etc. But it works.

DG

SKennedy
04-23-2008, 08:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SKennedy this is going to sound very bias I know that already because I am a team captain. In our league there are no time outs and coaching in any way is actually a foul.

It is my opinion that you and your team need to cut him the slack that is his due. Remember this; he probably coordinates with the league, sends in the fees, finds out where your are playing, contacts people to tell them where and when to be, makes the roster, sends in the scores, attends captains meetings, recruits team members and referee's the match for all of you. Why does he do this? What does he get out of it? I will tell you two things he definitely gets out of it; higher pressure and lower concentration for his own game.

Team captain is usually a job that gets very little if any thanks or recognition. Usually it is quite the opposite most of what I have gotten over the years is just a lot of questioning and complaining and then the season ends and we have another trophy on the wall we go out to dinner with our winnings and I save enough to pay for the player fees next season. One team member in the 8 years that I have been the captain has actually thanked me for doing all that I do for the team. I was the former co-captain of the team.

He is probably one of the better players on your team. He does see more than you do simply because he is an observer. It actually goes much deeper than just the game at hand, he is seeing the whole match not just that game.

I have found over the years that most players are egocentric to some degree. Quite often they worry about their own game; situation or whatever has to do with them at the time rather than being focused on the match and the season as a whole.

Talk to him sure but first tell him that you arenít telling him how to run a team or a match but rather that YOU have a problem reestablishing focus when he calls a time out and that he should consider that effect relative to how worth it is. And thank him for all he does, you will be one of the few who ever does anywhere.
</div></div>

Actually, he and I are co-captains and I also do a lot of the work. However, he is the one usually calling time-outs, etc. We managed to win first place for our league last night at the end of a 16 week session. We had lost the lead in the last 2 weeks and had been in the lead all session long. I did thank him last night and told him he was one of the big reasons we did so well. And I meant it...he matches players up very well! Last night he called time-outs on our lower skilled players and each time it was well worth it!
And you are right....we play, and serve the team as co-captains because we enjoy the game. And while I do thank him, others only tend to criticize when things don't go their way....number of matches played, etc. In addition, our captain has his father in-law and brother in-law on the team. That makes things worse!
But, when you are winning, everything is OK!

eb_in_nc
04-23-2008, 09:03 AM
I can appreciate both sides of this situation, but after 8 months play in the APA, I am more leaning to the captain who is committed to his teams play as a whole.

I'm currently on two leagues, one with a young exuberant captain who feels he needs to coach everyone even when they don't solicit his input, myself included, and I'm a SL 6. At the beginning, I felt he was trying to push his mentoring on me, but I allowed him the right since I was new to the team and wanted us to be in harmony with each other, and help to maximize our chances to win for the evening. Nowadays, he has backed off and he can sense when to approach someone needing a time out. But he still on occasion yells out "time -out" at his own discretion.

In the other league, my captain does not seem to care about anything and anyone other than to make sure he plays the bulk of the games in a particular session. There is really no structure to this team other than to play pool and decide who will go against the "put up". To be honest, at this point I am not all too happy with this nonchalant approach and more prefer the guy who may be perceived as egotistical and pushing himself on his team player by calling unsolicited time-outs. In this scenario, at least you have a captain who truly cares about the team and how they are performing as a unit. As JJFSTAR states, this sort of captain is putting in a whole lot of energy for you as a team and there is a lot going on behind the scenes demanding his time. The least we can do in appreciation is allow him to exercise his right as the captain.

Ego's at the door please!

SKennedy
04-23-2008, 09:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Ego's at the door please! </div></div>

That's the hardest part of all!

supergreenman
04-23-2008, 11:19 AM
I personally don't think time outs should be allowed. This is a competitive event, not pool school. Save the learning for outside of league play and play with the skills you've brought to the table.

Just my 2 cents(CAN)

BigRigTom
04-23-2008, 11:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supergreenman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally don't think time outs should be allowed. This is a competitive event, not pool school. Save the learning for outside of league play and play with the skills you've brought to the table.

Just my 2 cents(CAN)</div></div>

In the APA the league is handicap and we do consider it a learning ground (or pool school) for lesser skilled players and experienced players as well.
We all are learning to play the game in competition (sort of on the job training). The time outs allow the more experience players to share knowledge and help lesser skilled or lesser experienced players.
This is the great thing about the APA.
Pool is not longer a coveted secret of pros and hustlers.
Anyone and everyone can learn and anyone can win.
There are many good players in the APA that would have never stuck with the game without the benefit of learning from the better players. Much of that learning comes in the form of the time outs taken during competitive matches.

Even the pros benefit from time out or coaching sessions in matches such as the Mosconi Cup.

Time outs have their place in pool, "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water here!"

supergreenman
04-23-2008, 12:11 PM
I'm familiar with the APA timeouts. I just happen to not agree with them, especially in the match play format that the APA uses. Time outs tend to make a long evening even longer.

Players can get thier after a match, on another day during practice or before a match. I don't care which, but when I play an opponent I'd like to play an opponent not him and his captian at the same time. Part of playing pool is learning to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses, this isn't possible when you have a time out so someone can tell him how to get him out of the jail you put him in.

eb_in_nc
04-23-2008, 12:50 PM
Again, I can see both sides, but I have to stay with BigRigTom on this one. We are playing as a team, not as individuals, and as such the team's performance is based on everyones play for the night. For one team member to allow another to make a stupid shot when a simple time out can remedy the situation does not make sense. We have to remember this is not an individual playing environment even though we have discreet opponents during our match.

For APA play with skill level handicaps, time outs make sense in the overall context of things.

Bambu
04-23-2008, 12:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supergreenman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm familiar with the APA timeouts. I just happen to not agree with them, especially in the match play format that the APA uses. Time outs tend to make a long evening even longer.

Players can get thier after a match, on another day during practice or before a match. I don't care which, but when I play an opponent I'd like to play an opponent not him and his captian at the same time. Part of playing pool is learning to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses, this isn't possible when you have a time out so someone can tell him how to get him out of the jail you put him in.</div></div>

Thats one of the best things about a good time out. It can piss the other player or team off. When I see that, I purposely take even longer.

Sid_Vicious
04-23-2008, 11:20 PM
We are talking about anything from a raw beginner to an APA7. How would a semi-bar league keep players to maintain a league? The bar owner gets beer tabs like no other organized, BCA league, and the general class of these players have FUN! BTW, we count 8's on the break for a win, that's fun but I bet you'll would say sh!t on that addition to the fun factor, right? I always thought these kinds of local leagues should have all of the freedoms, for pure FUN...sid

JJFSTAR
04-24-2008, 12:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supergreenman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm familiar with the APA timeouts. I just happen to not agree with them, especially in the match play format that the APA uses. Time outs tend to make a long evening even longer.

Players can get thier after a match, on another day during practice or before a match. I don't care which, but when I play an opponent I'd like to play an opponent not him and his captian at the same time. Part of playing pool is learning to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses, this isn't possible when you have a time out so someone can tell him how to get him out of the jail you put him in.</div></div>

Thats one of the best things about a good time out. It can piss the other player or team off. When I see that, I purposely take even longer. </div></div>

In the West Penn Pool League there are no time outs and coaching of any type including "secret signals" is a foul, I like that. But if the WPPL went to time outs tomorrow I wouldnít mind either. With my team I would probably call time out 2 or 3 times a season.

Supergreenman and bambu I am going to have to disagree with both of you. Supergreenman you can't "get with" someone later to discuss options they should or should not have taken unless you mark the exact position of the balls as they lay. The reason being is that the person whose shot it was will place the balls with their perception of the shot and most often it is skewed. That is why they made the error that they did, they had a misperception. I see this all the time with lower level teams that we play especially in the play off's. It almost always starts off an argument of where the balls actually were.

Bambu your snide comment of course to some gets a little chuckle. However it is quite narrow minded. It is focusing on the selfish idea of what is good for me right now. To purposefully attempt to "piss-off" your opponent or the opposing team is just bad for many reasons hereís why.

This creates negative energy and not necessarily just on the opposing side; it is possible that you are embarrassing other members of your team by your actions therefore shifting focus from the game and table and directing it to social interactive concerns; that weakens both sides leading to worse play. You are most certainly interrupting the momentum of the player you are trying to help even if (and would hope not) he was enjoying such an attempt.

It even goes deeper than that. I am going to sound a little kooky here so bear with me. If you have ever attempted to go out and try to gain sponsorship for a pool event you will realize very quickly that pool in the USA has a seedy reputation as a sport. The gambling, hustling, smoke filled and generally obnoxious atmosphere have many sponsors reluctant to give you a dime even if you promise them good exposure.

It is this kind of thing that tavern owners see all the time and if they are not pool players frown on when poor sportsmanship rears its ugly head in their establishments. This does nothing for us except take money out of our pockets in the form of available prize money distributions from corporate sponsorship from non pool related sources such as breweryís and distillerís.

This sport that we have all chosen as a hobby is the IMHO the quintessential blend of mental focus, skill and artistic thought that exists in the world. If you are so selfish that you can't stand to have your evening interrupted for the potential gains of a lesser skilled player or you are willfully advocating what is obviously unsportsmenship like conduct then you should rethink what you stand for in the world.

JoeW
04-24-2008, 01:37 PM
I have found it an easy problem to solve. If the coach is a jerk or doesn't respect the player's usual style or the player doesn't like coaching, call a time out after the first shot. Do this a couple of times and the coach will get the message. We allow one time out per game in our league.

On the other hand, some coaces are good and there are times we can all use that second pair of eyes. If the coach is not a jerk then don't call a time early. It all depends on the team your playing on at the time.

I think that coaching is for the player to request or decline. It is his game / match to be played his way. Once in a great while the player may not see a shot that he would usually play and then the coach gets involved. On our team you get help only when you ask for it 95% of the time.

wolfdancer
04-24-2008, 04:52 PM
I don't like time outs....unless the player himself calls for help.
I had an Attorney for a teammate, that presented his advice as an option to consider....not the mandatory "do it my way, or.."
that some Captains impose upon their teammates. He'd also ask first about the shot that you were thinking about.
While he had great input...I'd often " I did it my way" since his shot selections sometimes required his skills...which I didn't have then....(maybe not even now....but there's always bowling if pool doesn't work out...I'll give it another 10 yrs)
Before a Captain gives you the exact way to run the table, he should understand, subsets, Markov chains and maybe Kariera rules (if he is a polygamist)
If you take a simple two ball run out...and realize you could do it A then B...or B then A....then factor in that each ball could go in one of 6 pockets....which means that there are now 72 different ways to get out...and only one is correct????

SKennedy
04-24-2008, 05:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't like time outs....unless the player himself calls for help.
I had an Attorney for a teammate, that presented his advice as an option to consider....not the mandatory "do it my way, or.."
that some Captains impose upon their teammates. He'd also ask first about the shot that you were thinking about.
While he had great input...I'd often " I did it my way" since his shot selections sometimes required his skills...which I didn't have then....(maybe not even now....but there's always bowling if pool doesn't work out...I'll give it another 10 yrs)
Before a Captain gives you the exact way to run the table, he should understand, subsets, Markov chains and maybe Kariera rules (if he is a polygamist)
If you take a simple two ball run out...and realize you could do it A then B...or B then A....then factor in that each ball could go in one of 6 pockets....which means that there are now 72 different ways to get out...and only one is correct????

</div></div>

Can I use those lines on our captain? It would blow his mind! Actually he is pretty good about how he calls a time out and he presents it well and as an option, especially those of us who are the same skill as he, but he still is only advising with the lower level also. He'll call a time out and then come up to me and say "What are you thinking?" And usually, it's in a situation where I have a tough shot and need to think about a defensive shot, etc. All in all, after reading everyone's input I can state that although I was initially complaining about him calling time-outs, I must say he does it in a pretty postive manner most of the time and from what I'm hearing, he could be much worse. I think my team can live with him! Maybe I'll even print out these posts and show him the comments, etc. Like someone suggested, I (and all of us) need to check our egos at the door. Thanks for the feedback guys!
And Wolf? You let an attorney play on the team? You must really be a nice guy!

JoeW
04-24-2008, 05:33 PM
Friend of mine is an attorney and collects lawyer jokes. He has more jokes than anyone I know.

Coaching on our team always begins with, "What were you thinking," and ends with two or more options. N factorial options is just a few too many for anyone.

One of the interesting things I have noted about coaching is that most of us can sit and look at the table and (at times) comment to each other, "this is what they will do," within 30 seconds of calling a time out. Three to five minutes later that is what they decide sometimes with the input of the whole team. Sometimes coaching is just a gas. I agree, check your ego at the door.

Fellow I met had not played in the leagues before. He was a 5 - 6 handicap. The first match he got stuck and could see the whole team ready to jump up. He walks around the table, stops, faces the team and begins sucking on his thumb. We all cracked up.

Bambu
04-24-2008, 06:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supergreenman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm familiar with the APA timeouts. I just happen to not agree with them, especially in the match play format that the APA uses. Time outs tend to make a long evening even longer.

Players can get thier after a match, on another day during practice or before a match. I don't care which, but when I play an opponent I'd like to play an opponent not him and his captian at the same time. Part of playing pool is learning to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses, this isn't possible when you have a time out so someone can tell him how to get him out of the jail you put him in.</div></div>

Thats one of the best things about a good time out. It can piss the other player or team off. When I see that, I purposely take even longer. </div></div>

In the West Penn Pool League there are no time outs and coaching of any type including "secret signals" is a foul, I like that. But if the WPPL went to time outs tomorrow I wouldn’t mind either. With my team I would probably call time out 2 or 3 times a season.

Supergreenman and bambu I am going to have to disagree with both of you. Supergreenman you can't "get with" someone later to discuss options they should or should not have taken unless you mark the exact position of the balls as they lay. The reason being is that the person whose shot it was will place the balls with their perception of the shot and most often it is skewed. That is why they made the error that they did, they had a misperception. I see this all the time with lower level teams that we play especially in the play off's. It almost always starts off an argument of where the balls actually were.

Bambu your snide comment of course to some gets a little chuckle. However it is quite narrow minded. It is focusing on the selfish idea of what is good for me right now. To purposefully attempt to "piss-off" your opponent or the opposing team is just bad for many reasons here’s why.

This creates negative energy and not necessarily just on the opposing side; it is possible that you are embarrassing other members of your team by your actions therefore shifting focus from the game and table and directing it to social interactive concerns; that weakens both sides leading to worse play. You are most certainly interrupting the momentum of the player you are trying to help even if (and would hope not) he was enjoying such an attempt.

It even goes deeper than that. I am going to sound a little kooky here so bear with me. If you have ever attempted to go out and try to gain sponsorship for a pool event you will realize very quickly that pool in the USA has a seedy reputation as a sport. The gambling, hustling, smoke filled and generally obnoxious atmosphere have many sponsors reluctant to give you a dime even if you promise them good exposure.

It is this kind of thing that tavern owners see all the time and if they are not pool players frown on when poor sportsmanship rears its ugly head in their establishments. This does nothing for us except take money out of our pockets in the form of available prize money distributions from corporate sponsorship from non pool related sources such as brewery’s and distiller’s.

This sport that we have all chosen as a hobby is the IMHO the quintessential blend of mental focus, skill and artistic thought that exists in the world. If you are so selfish that you can't stand to have your evening interrupted for the potential gains of a lesser skilled player or you are willfully advocating what is obviously unsportsmenship like conduct then you should rethink what you stand for in the world.
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What you call unsportsman like conduct, I call making the best out of my time outs. I am not the one who didnt put a time limit on the time out, so dont blame me for taking as much time as I feel my players need. The more you or the other teams cry about it, the better it is for me. Its kinda like honking your horn at me the second the light turns green. Yeah, youre gonna wait longer now.

SKennedy
04-25-2008, 08:47 AM
"Sucking on his thumb".....he certainly left his ego at the door. Those types make for great teammates.
Maybe I'll take a pacifier with me to our next match?

wolfdancer
04-25-2008, 10:08 AM
I have strange thoughts on what a Texas pacifier would look like.
Joe bought up an interesting point though...regarding looking at the table/shot for an inordinate length of time. there's an old pool adage that if you don't see your next move in the first minute ,you'll never see it...as he wrote "n factorial" or info overload.
When i first learned to play...(around the same time they were switching from ivory balls to plastic ones, I think...seems like that long ago)...I would go "brain dead" after the other guy rearranged the table.
I just came back from a big team tournament...one team mate plays great, while the other guys are still developing their games, and their strategy is "suspect". He tried to help them, but his frustrations also came out during that. I had to smooth things over. I have lots of patience because I either used to make the same mistakes, or still do.. Only thing he had to say about my game was that I was stressing him out, by having to kick or bank in my last ball....but I can't help it if I run the table "backwards"...

JJFSTAR
04-25-2008, 11:13 AM
Bambu I believe you need to read my post a little more carefully but I will post again just to clear up a couple of points.

1. I have nothing to "cry" about because in my league coaching of any type is a foul. The penalty is ball in hand for my opponent I have never been in a league where time outs are called; one must make their shot in 2 minutes period.

2. I am not debating with you that making the most of your time outs is good for you. I am debating with you that taking an inordinate length of time with the intention of pissing off your opponent is bad for pool in its attempt to become a more recognized and respected sport worldwide and is poor sportsmanship; and you undeniably said the later not the former.

Do not attempt to say now that you are of the position that you are simply taking the maximum time that your player needs because that is not what you said; you said that you are taking more time exclusively to disconcert your opponent.

Read my post CAREFULLY!!!

PlayersChoiceSTL
04-25-2008, 02:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am debating with you that taking an inordinate length of time with the intention of pissing off your opponent is bad for pool in its attempt to become a more recognized and respected sport worldwide and is poor sportsmanship; </div></div>

Well said JJFSTAR! I agree completely!

pooltchr
04-25-2008, 05:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> one must make their shot in 2 minutes period.



</div></div>

League night must last an awfully long time. 30 seconds is normal, 45 seconds is a good limit for a tough shot, and a full minute is long enough for just about any shot. If someone was taking two minutes between shots, I would fall asleep between turns!
Steve

JJFSTAR
04-27-2008, 01:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> one must make their shot in 2 minutes period.



</div></div>

League night must last an awfully long time. 30 seconds is normal, 45 seconds is a good limit for a tough shot, and a full minute is long enough for just about any shot. If someone was taking two minutes between shots, I would fall asleep between turns!
Steve </div></div>

Steve our league states that the shot must be made within 2 minutes not that it must take 2 minutes to make a shot; if you ever run into a league that has a minimum allotted time as opposed to to a maximum time allowed I would suggest that you not play in that league for obvious reasons.

Any rational person that shoots the game well will undoubtedly run the last 2 or 3 balls within a few seconds; we all know this; I think you are doing the same thing that the person I am debating with in this question with you are "scanning" not "readingĒ READ AND UNDERSTAND!!!
"

pooltchr
04-27-2008, 05:58 AM
I did read your post, not just scan it.
My point is that the pros often play with a 30 second shot clock with one extention allowed. Doesn't seem to cause any problems. Seems that for amateurs, that doubling the time would be more than sufficient. In our APA league, at the tournament level, if a match gets put on the shot clock due to slow play, it's 45 seconds. I'm only saying that 2 minutes seems excessively long, even as a maximum, and even for amateur players.
I used to run a 9-ball tour and we had one player who would take a full minute on nearly every shot. The other players hated playing against him, and his matches were always the last to finish in each round.
Steve

Bambu
04-27-2008, 09:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bambu I believe you need to read my post a little more carefully but I will post again just to clear up a couple of points.

1. I have nothing to "cry" about because in my league coaching of any type is a foul. The penalty is ball in hand for my opponent I have never been in a league where time outs are called; one must make their shot in 2 minutes period.

2. I am not debating with you that making the most of your time outs is good for you. I am debating with you that taking an inordinate length of time with the intention of pissing off your opponent is bad for pool in its attempt to become a more recognized and respected sport worldwide and is poor sportsmanship; and you undeniably said the later not the former.

Do not attempt to say now that you are of the position that you are simply taking the maximum time that your player needs because that is not what you said; you said that you are taking more time exclusively to disconcert your opponent.

Read my post CAREFULLY!!!

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I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I think YOU need to read
MY post more carefully. I didnt say I take extra time just for the hell of it. I only do it when the other team complains.

JJFSTAR
04-27-2008, 12:33 PM
[/quote] Thatís one of the best things about a good time out. It can piss the other player or team off. When I see that, I purposely take even longer. [/quote]

This is your statement exactly and what I am saying is that this tactic is detrimental to pool as an esteemed sport in the world. I am very simply saying that purposely taking additional time for the sole purpose of agitating your opponent is unsportsmanlike and you are completely free to disagree with that contention. I never said or implied that you were taking additional time "for the hell of it".

You state here that you are attempting to piss off your opponent because taking time you see is to them an irritant. The difference from being apathetic to the fact that they are irritated by the length of your time out and using it as a tactic to disquiet them is as different as night and day. You can amend your statement but you cant say you didnít say this.

Bambu
04-27-2008, 12:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote] That’s one of the best things about a good time out. It can piss the other player or team off. When I see that, I purposely take even longer. </div></div>

This is your statement exactly and what I am saying is that this tactic is detrimental to pool as an esteemed sport in the world. I am very simply saying that purposely taking additional time for the sole purpose of agitating your opponent is unsportsmanlike and you are completely free to disagree with that contention. I never said or implied that you were taking additional time "for the hell of it".

You state here that you are attempting to piss off your opponent because taking time you see is to them an irritant. The difference from being apathetic to the fact that they are irritated by the length of your time out and using it as a tactic to disquiet them is as different as night and day. You can amend your statement but you cant say you didn’t say this.
[/quote]

There is no amendment needed. I have seen guys who take extra time as part of their game, just to be irritating. I am not one of those guys, and this is not the same at all.
You can call it a tactic, but its only a reaction. Most teams understand that some players play a grind it out type match, and need all the coaching they can get. Complaining to me is not going to make me rush my time out. Guys who cry about the length of time get no sympathy from me. Sorry, but my player is more important than your big hurry. And frankly, being interrupted annoys me. Dont like it, dont play. I didnt make the rules, or ask for a field of 2's and 3's. Whats really unsportsmanlike, is whining.

JJFSTAR
04-27-2008, 01:11 PM
pooltchr I am just telling you what the rules are in our league. I had no part in the drawing up of those rules nor have I ever seen in 20 years of play ever seen anyone call a foul for taking longer than 2 minutes to make a shot. There are many rules in the rulebook such as an entire section on "balls moving spontaneously" that for 99.99% of us are completely useless.

My belief at this point is that those rules are in there for the folks in sections 4 and 5. Many of those players that I have seen barely know how to hold a cue and their matches I have literally seen go until 2am. IMHO they are just trying to cover the absurd and not designed for use in normal play just like every other rule book.

As for a 30 second shot clock not causing any problems for a pro I am going to have to disagree with you there. If Steve Tipton had a dime for every time he told a pro they had 10 seconds to shoot or the pro used their extension he would be a very wealthy man. There was a match a few years ago that the pro actually did foul for taking over 30 seconds and I do remember Vivian Villarreal a couple of years ago saying "extension" and Steve saying "No" she rushed the shot got out of position and failed to run a fairly easy rack.

In the world cup of pool this last year the shot clock was at 40 seconds not 30 and it didnít start until the first shot following the break IMHO a much better system. Still with some frequency the shots went down to the last few seconds.

JJFSTAR
04-27-2008, 05:51 PM
Bambu you do not find these 2 statements to be contradictory?

Thatís one of the best things about a good time out. It can piss the other player or team off. When I see that, I purposely take even longer.

And

I have seen guys who take extra time as part of their game, just to be irritating. I am not one of those guys.

These two statements were both made by you.

eb_in_nc
04-28-2008, 08:15 AM
My my, this is a testy thread.. Seems too many egos here trying to assert their fine points about something that is a reality if you play in the APA.

I agree, time outs can be a real pain, and only add to a sometimes miserably long evening. I also cannot stand shooting a player who has to think about every shot for a minute, even though the next shot can be so darn obvious. To be honest, it does to some extent throw my own game off as it disrupts the pace of the match. I think the point we have to remember here however is that we all have our own style of play and that can be very demanding to the given match and situation. If a player knows he is stressing out my game because I grow impatient to wait out my turn to shot, I don't think this is being unsportsman like. I think Bambu chose the wrong words which got JJFSTAR going on semantics, but let's be honest. We all want to win our matches and we will use whatever is in our arsenal to use in order to defeat our opponent. Short of cheating or trying to disrupt your opponent by making distracting noises, I don't see anything wrong with using a time out to put your opponent off of his game. It's up to you to know how to deal with it and move on with your own game.

JJFSTAR
04-28-2008, 11:33 AM
Eb_in_nc if you think that bambu by saying that he tries to piss off his opponents by taking additional time when it obviously disquiets them and trying to throw off another playerís timing is one and the same I wont disagree with that; everyone has their own take on things. But do you think that the 2 statements in post #273345 - 04/27/08 07:51 PM are consistent lines of thought? I am simply of the opinion that trying to piss someone else off is wrong and I donít care where you are or what youíre doing outside of physically trying to defend yourself. And it is not a strong opinion but in fact a very light hearted one; if you disagree I will still play pool with you no big deal.

However if you have that opinion I say consider this. Pool has a seedy reputation in the eyes of the great part of the population here in the USA, and you can test this theory by cold calling and trying to gain corporate sponsorship for a pool event from non pool related companies, the hurdle you have to get over having to prove that pool is in fact in any way wholesome would surprise most of us, it sure surprised me. In contrast over in the Philippines such is not the case although the companies do not have as much to contribute toward advertising pool is a much more revered sport.

To sum it all up I say lets not try to piss off the other player it does no good for the game that we love so dearly. It might help us for the here and now but I think we should not be that short sighted. I know people can become jerks on match night but try not to be one of them and donít try to antagonize those who are. If you do you harm our sports development if even in a minute way. You also throw in social interactive concerns that have nothing to do with pool and therefore potentially throw off your own team in the process.

Bambu
04-28-2008, 11:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bambu you do not find these 2 statements to be contradictory?

That’s one of the best things about a good time out. It can piss the other player or team off. When I see that, I purposely take even longer.

And

I have seen guys who take extra time as part of their game, just to be irritating. I am not one of those guys.

These two statements were both made by you.
</div></div>

Again, there is no contradiction. And, I am not the Dr. Evil of pool you think I am. You can quote me all you like, and I will continue to defend my position. The first statement pertains to people who complain about my timeouts taking too long. Doesnt happen often, but I will not be cutting my advice short, just to accomodate a complaining opposition. In fact, complaining made the timeout take longer anyway because I was interrupted. If it takes even longer at that point, you only have your impatient self to blame.
The second statement is about guys taking too long as part of their game, and only pertains to taking too long for almost every shot. Shooting time and timeouts are 2 different issues, so I fail to see your point.
You dont even know how long I really take, so dont assume I am up there for more than a few minutes during every timeout. If you b*tch and moan about it, dont expect me to stop and smooth out your feathers.

eb_in_nc
04-28-2008, 12:10 PM
JJSTAR, I'm a newbie here like you and don't really know the character of Bambu, so I would be talking out of turn to comment on what he means from one posting to another. Maybe he is just trying to elicit a reaction from you, and it seems he has.

Regardless, I can sit on the fence and see both sides without taking anything said too literally. The APA allows timeouts and we can use them as we see fit, even if this at some level upsets our opponent. One of the things I believe we all understand as reasonably serious pool players is to study your opponents playing ability before getting to the table so that you can see where his potential strengths and weaknesses may be. If I see that my opponent is a quick shoot player (I had a match against a 6 the other night and this guy was banging shots off one after the other like there was no tomorrow), I will purposely slow down my own game as I don't want him to dictate the playrate of the match, and I know it is to some extent "quietly" pissing him off because even if I missed, it's taking some time for him to get back to the table, and causing him possibly to falter in his own game (by the way, I won the match by the skin of my teeth). Like a defensive shot, this is fair game play but using the mental side of the game to gain advantage in the match.

I also agree the pool has a seedy history and I for one would like it to emerge from the dank and smokefilled bars that still to this day fuel it's fire for survival. One of my other postings was asking about what happened to mens billiards on TV and one of the responses was that the women get all dressed up and know how to look good for the camera, whereas the men as now wearing jeans and looking like they are playing in their garage. Long gone are the days of wearing ties and vests; the pool culture seems to have slip-slided and we need to bring it back to a more respectable level if we want solicitation in the form of sponsorships and such. So yes, we should not try to offensively piss off our opponent, but let's use what we can of the game to the best of our own advantage.

Looking forward to playing pool with you some day.

JJFSTAR
04-28-2008, 12:36 PM
Bambu I guess you are just going to maintain that you will not cut short your time out to accommodate someone who is complaining about the length of your time out and if TOís were a part of my league I wouldnít either. I in fact would ignore them completely. That is fine, but that is not what you said; you said that when this happens you do not ignore them but you use this reaction of unrest that they have to farther antagonize them.

Those two ideas to me are very different; I personally donít see how they can be viewed as the same thing. But as I said in an earlier post everyone has their own take on things. I just happen to believe that you shouldnít ever try to piss someone off.

I am the team captain and if I see one of my players trying to piss someone off I tell them that I do not condone that action and that my players will conduct themselves politely even if the opponent happens to be a jerk and that is not always as easy as it sounds. I have done this before and those players are still on my team today.

I never said you were a Dr. Evil of pool I just happen to believe that you shouldnít ever try to piss someone off and believe that it is poor sportsmanship to do so. Lots of people do it and are just fine with it, if you are one of those people no problem I play pool with people like that all the time and I donít think they are ďbad peopleĒ just a little short sighted.

Bambu
04-28-2008, 12:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JJSTAR, I'm a newbie here like you and don't really know the character of Bambu, so I would be talking out of turn to comment on what he means from one posting to another. Maybe he is just trying to elicit a reaction from you, and it seems he has.

Regardless, I can sit on the fence and see both sides without taking anything said too literally. The APA allows timeouts and we can use them as we see fit, even if this at some level upsets our opponent. One of the things I believe we all understand as reasonably serious pool players is to study your opponents playing ability before getting to the table so that you can see where his potential strengths and weaknesses may be. If I see that my opponent is a quick shoot player (I had a match against a 6 the other night and this guy was banging shots off one after the other like there was no tomorrow), I will purposely slow down my own game as I don't want him to dictate the playrate of the match, and I know it is to some extent "quietly" pissing him off because even if I missed, it's taking some time for him to get back to the table, and causing him possibly to falter in his own game (by the way, I won the match by the skin of my teeth). Like a defensive shot, this is fair game play but using the mental side of the game to gain advantage in the match.

I also agree the pool has a seedy history and I for one would like it to emerge from the dank and smokefilled bars that still to this day fuel it's fire for survival. One of my other postings was asking about what happened to mens billiards on TV and one of the responses was that the women get all dressed up and know how to look good for the camera, whereas the men as now wearing jeans and looking like they are playing in their garage. Long gone are the days of wearing ties and vests; the pool culture seems to have slip-slided and we need to bring it back to a more respectable level if we want solicitation in the form of sponsorships and such. So yes, we should not try to offensively piss off our opponent, but let's use what we can of the game to the best of our own advantage.

Looking forward to playing pool with you some day.</div></div>

Good point EB. There is also a mental war about the pace of the game. I just played a 7 last week, and the guy took forever, studied every shot and angle. Instead of letting it get to me, I brought the pace of the game down to his level myself. It was all I could think of, since I wasnt about to play fast on purpose. I dont know if he used that slow strat on purpose, but it backfired on him.
That reminds me of the slowest guy I ever saw, his name was bob the school teacher. The guy would have his opponents so on edge, they were all ready to break their own cues over bobs head as he stalked the table (over, and over). All you would see is the other guy in the chair, squirming and eye rolling. Now bob swore up and down, that it was just the way he played, but nobody believed him. He wasnt one of the best players in the house either, but bob won alot of matches he wasnt supposed to. Looking back, I wouldnt be surprised if that really was just the way bob played. Nobody could have the b*lls to do that on purpose, and with a straight face.

Deeman3
04-28-2008, 12:42 PM
Timeouts, used sparingly, can be a good teaching tool as well as a chance to chill out a player who is nervous or frustrated. Like anything, if abused or called just because you can, it delays play and, as we have seen, even cause ill will within a team.

It is nice if the person (Captain) knows more than the shooter and can be susinct and quick about giving advice and getting out of the way. Of course, it will impact the outcome of many games, thus, is not allowed in some leagues and allowed in others.

eb_in_nc
04-28-2008, 12:52 PM
Bambu, I think Bob is smarter than his team mates gave him credit for. In my mind just another example of using whatever is in your arsenal of weapons, if this is what he was doing.

For me, I can only get so analytical about shooting a shot, and if I stare at it long enough, I will probably lose my concentration. So there is a metered response (at least for me) for trying to play the game cerebrally before it starts to work against me. This goes back to the dead stroke topic which is really what I seek when I play pool.

Bambu
04-28-2008, 12:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bambu I guess you are just going to maintain that you will not cut short your time out to accommodate someone who is complaining about the length of your time out and if TO’s were a part of my league I wouldn’t either. I in fact would ignore them completely. That is fine, but that is not what you said; you said that when this happens you do not ignore them but you use this reaction of unrest that they have to farther antagonize them.

Those two ideas to me are very different; I personally don’t see how they can be viewed as the same thing. But as I said in an earlier post everyone has their own take on things. I just happen to believe that you shouldn’t ever try to piss someone off.

I am the team captain and if I see one of my players trying to piss someone off I tell them that I do not condone that action and that my players will conduct themselves politely even if the opponent happens to be a jerk and that is not always as easy as it sounds. I have done this before and those players are still on my team today.

I never said you were a Dr. Evil of pool I just happen to believe that you shouldn’t ever try to piss someone off and believe that it is poor sportsmanship to do so. Lots of people do it and are just fine with it, if you are one of those people no problem I play pool with people like that all the time and I don’t think they are “bad people” just a little short sighted.
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It is bad sportsmanship to deliberately piss someone off, I agree. But when you disrespect me first by interrupting my timeout, I might bite back. I will not allow my opponent to dictate the pace of the match to his liking, or even let him think he is. If I ignore him when he complains, and the timeout happens to be ending anyway....he might think he was successful in rushing me off the table. So I would rather let him squirm for an extra minute, instead of strengthening his ego and teams morale. You just cant let other teams push you around, or even think they are.

JJFSTAR
04-28-2008, 01:12 PM
eb_in_nc well said for your entire post #273404 - 04/28/08 02:10 PM your thinking and mine are exactly alike and I just want everyone to join this club thatís all. I want everyone to realize that it would help our sport to become more respected if we all gave it the regard that is its due.

I want us to become representatives of the sport in a positive light 100% of the time; it would not only help our games individually but also our cause here and abroad.

I go to wine tastings in NYC semi annually give or take, the next time I am about to come up I will PM you, looking forward to playing you also.

eb_in_nc
04-28-2008, 01:18 PM
JJFSTAR,I have the same vision for billiards and those that play and represent the sport.

BTW, I'm in NC, not NYC, but hey, I love wine so that put's us even on a more even playing ground. Never get caught drinking wine when shooting in the pool league however, I think this is some sort of pool blasphemy. I know where I shoot they would all be looking at me like I was from mars.

Anyhow, if you ever get to the vineyards of North Carolina, give us a holler!

Eric B.

Bambu
04-28-2008, 01:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bambu, I think Bob is smarter than his team mates gave him credit for. In my mind just another example of using whatever is in your arsenal of weapons, if this is what he was doing.

For me, I can only get so analytical about shooting a shot, and if I stare at it long enough, I will probably lose my concentration. So there is a metered response (at least for me) for trying to play the game cerebrally before it starts to work against me. This goes back to the dead stroke topic which is really what I seek when I play pool.</div></div>

I feel the same way, its tough to get in a rythm when you have an inconsistent pace. Overthinking can take you out of your zone in a hurry.

JJFSTAR
04-28-2008, 01:53 PM
Bambu it isnít that I donít understand your point I just happen to disagree with it. And that does not mean I think you are a bad or lesser person than I or anyone else on this board. I never "bite back" with words, taking additional time or the like.

The best way to "bite back" is IMHO is to do it with my stick. If (for me) ANY if even the MOST MINUTE attention is taken up by the reaction to some whinny person's mutterings then I am delivering him a 99.99% Johnny. I want to deliver him a 100% Johnny.

Bambu
04-28-2008, 02:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bambu it isn’t that I don’t understand your point I just happen to disagree with it. And that does not mean I think you are a bad or lesser person than I or anyone else on this board. I never "bite back" with words, taking additional time or the like.

The best way to "bite back" is IMHO is to do it with my stick. If (for me) ANY if even the MOST MINUTE attention is taken up by the reaction to some whinny person's mutterings then I am delivering him a 99.99% Johnny. I want to deliver him a 100% Johnny.

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You are free to disagree JF, no hard feelings. I would rather run a rack on the guy after he complains too. But by the time the complaining comes(if it does)it is the last match, when everybody is drunk and wants to go home(including me). For the last match its only a race to 2, and all we have left is 2's and 3's. That match can decide the winner if there is a typical 2-2 match score. Its always one of those 30 inning matches that take forever. My players dont know much about position, safeties, or what to do with ball in hand. But, they do listen and work well with me. The players that dont, I dont force myself upon them. So its up to me to make the most of my timeouts, and that does not include allowing the other team to think they are dictating their lengths.

KellyStick
04-29-2008, 11:33 AM
Good coaching can take as much mental effort and attention as playing. You have to know your player as well as analyze the opponent plus watch the game. The only thing worse than calling timeouts too soon or not calling them at all when you have a cranky player who does not like timeouts is not calling a timeout when you should have. When you wait it often becomes to late to fix what otherwise would have been easy to fix.

Not that it helps but sometimes when a player calls time out after it's too late my thinking is that you should go back about two shots and do everything over so you don't end up in this bad place. I'm also wishing I had called a time out too sometimes but didn't. Some people don't like time outs and that's ok by me. I don't try much to fight it these days. I like what I like and they like what they like and after all it's only a pool game.

JJFSTAR
04-29-2008, 11:41 AM
I am sorry I dont agree with your last 5 words Kellystick /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif