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Soflasnapper
04-23-2008, 01:46 PM
A couple of my hitting partners and I start sets by lagging instead of a coin flip.

I've got a running bet of $1.00 for the first one of us that delivers the perfect lag, where the lagged ball comes to rest on the rail.

Is that even possible? Ever see it? Ever see anybody do it more than once? I'm wondering if that is comparable to a hole in one in golf, which is quite rare, but happens some number of times each year given how many people are playing so many holes of golf.

On that topic, if you lag occasionally, do you use a center ball hit skidding the ball at first before it turns into normal roll, or a little top, so it starts off with roll right away? Sometimes it seems that with a little top at the onset, and with some follow on the ball, it acts in reverse off the rail to brake the ball's speed. (But I doubt this is so.)

Deeman3
04-23-2008, 01:57 PM
Hit very well, it is more likely to stop on the rail than near it as the absorption of energy is large for a rebounding ball plus the channel that is right under the rail will help "capture" a slow rolling ball. I have seen it often but not as often as I would expect.

I saw Allison Fisher do it on TV just last week.

eb_in_nc
04-23-2008, 02:23 PM
I actually witnessed a lag 2 weeks ago by a SL 3 who mishit the ball, it came back and was headed to the right corner pocket. It actually came to rest inside the pocket, beyond the rail position without dropping into the pocket! Now that's a lag to beat.

bsmutz
04-23-2008, 02:32 PM
I agree that it happens more often than you would think. I've had a few and seen quite a few.

BigRigTom
04-23-2008, 03:54 PM
I agree with the rest of the answers. It happens a lot.
I lag with a tip of top and I try to hit my shot a split second ahead of my opponent.
It seems that when he catches a glimps of my ball taking off he has a tendency to pull up on his stroke and then when mine hits the foot rail the brakes come on and it slow crawls back to the head rail while his will stop just past center table.

That may be all in my head but as long as I get that 1st break, especially in 9 ball ...who cares?

dr_dave
04-23-2008, 04:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you lag occasionally, do you use a center ball hit skidding the ball at first before it turns into normal roll, or a little top, so it starts off with roll right away? Sometimes it seems that with a little top at the onset, and with some follow on the ball, it acts in reverse off the rail to brake the ball's speed. (But I doubt this is so.)</div></div>For the best and most consistent speed control, it is better to hit above center for immediate roll. Roll into the rail typically converts to stun on rebound (e.g., see HSV 7.16 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV7-16.htm)), which slows the ball (due to skidding) even more than the rail inefficiency itself slows the ball. That's why it is generally better to hit the head rail rather than not with a lag shot. This will generally result in the best average lag results.

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
04-23-2008, 08:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... On that topic, if you lag occasionally, do you use a center ball hit skidding the ball at first before it turns into normal roll, or a little top, so it starts off with roll right away? Sometimes it seems that with a little top at the onset, and with some follow on the ball, it acts in reverse off the rail to brake the ball's speed. (But I doubt this is so.)

</div></div>
Almost no matter how you hit the cue ball, it will be rolling smoothly on the cloth when it gets to the far rail. If you don't believe me, try lagging with a stripe so you can see the spin.

There is a certain height to hit the cue ball that makes it insensitive to how high you hit it. That is about 60% of the height of the cue ball. Suppose you hit with some draw. If you hit a little lower, you will first have more draw on the ball which will slow it down, and second, you will have less initial speed in the cue ball, due to the more off-center hit. The conclusion is that it is very bad to hit a lag with draw unless you can hit very, very consistently at the height you want.

On the other hand, if you hit somewhat above center, the cue ball starts out with some forward roll. If you hit higher, it will have more forward roll so there won't be as much slowing as it acquires full roll, but it will not start as fast because you are hitting the ball more off-center. These two opposite effects will cancel exactly at a certain height and that is the height you should hit the cue ball. The actual height depends on the weight of the stick, as I recall, and the springiness of the tip, but for common values, you want to hit about 1/4-inch above center or at 60% of the height of the ball.

You would start with smooth rolling by hitting at 70% of the height of the ball, but that's not best for this purpose because a little higher or lower will change the total distance traveled more.

BigRigTom
04-23-2008, 09:30 PM
So!
Joe and Dave.....
We should be hitting at the 60% mark above the table which is approximately 1 tip and the roll consistency will be maximized.

The only thing left is to figure how hard to stroke on a particular size table when the humidity is X and the cushion rebound is Y and the cloth speed is Z....

The result is a perfect lag every time....presto!
Thanks

pooltchr
04-24-2008, 04:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> where the lagged ball comes to rest on the rail.

Is that even possible? Ever see it? </div></div>

A couple of years ago, a few of us were getting ready for a ring game and were lagging to establish shooting order. Scott Lee came up within 1/4 inch of the rail, and I got ever so slightly closer. I said to RandyG as he was getting ready for his lag that he was going to have a hard time beating those. He looked at them, said, "Neither one of you is on the rail", and proceeded to do exactly that.
Steve

New2Pool
04-24-2008, 06:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I actually witnessed a lag 2 weeks ago by a SL 3 who mishit the ball, it came back and was headed to the right corner pocket. It actually came to rest inside the pocket, beyond the rail position without dropping into the pocket! Now that's a lag to beat. </div></div>

Just don't foul and you beat it according to general rule (PDF) (http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54#General%20Rules) 3.6 F

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Other cushion contacts are immaterial, except as prohibited below. It is an
automatic loss of the lag if:
(f) The ball rests within the corner pocket and past the nose of the head cushion, or;</div></div>

BigRigTom
04-24-2008, 08:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just don't foul and you beat it according to general rule (PDF) 3.6 F

Quote:Other cushion contacts are immaterial, except as prohibited below. It is an
automatic loss of the lag if:
</div></div>

That is great!
I never heard that one.
I bet it will come up between now and the end of the season too.

Bob_Jewett
04-24-2008, 09:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: New2Pool</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just don't foul and you beat it according to general rule (PDF) (http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54#General%20Rules) 3.6 F </div></div>
That rule is out of date. The WPA accepted new rules last November that went into effect on January 1st, 2008. The new rules are on the WPA website. See http://www.wpa-pool.com

New2Pool
04-24-2008, 11:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: New2Pool</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just don't foul and you beat it according to general rule (PDF) (http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54#General%20Rules) 3.6 F </div></div>
That rule is out of date. The WPA accepted new rules last November that went into effect on January 1st, 2008. The new rules are on the WPA website. See http://www.wpa-pool.com </div></div>

Thanks for the link and the update. The rule stayed the same but it is now rule 1.2 e (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament#1.2).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lag shot is bad and cannot win if the shooter’s ball:
(a) crosses the long string;
(b) contacts the foot cushion other than once;
(c) is pocketed or driven off the table;
(d) touches the side cushion; or
(e) the ball rests within the corner pocket and past the nose of the head cushion.</div></div>

eb_in_nc
04-24-2008, 12:35 PM
New2Pool2, these are the WPBA rules, but I don't think a - e all apply to the APA? Please correct me someone if I am wrong.

Scott Lee
04-24-2008, 01:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> where the lagged ball comes to rest on the rail.

Is that even possible? Ever see it? </div></div>

A couple of years ago, a few of us were getting ready for a ring game and were lagging to establish shooting order. Scott Lee came up within 1/4 inch of the rail, and I got ever so slightly closer. I said to RandyG as he was getting ready for his lag that he was going to have a hard time beating those. He looked at them, said, "Neither one of you is on the rail", and proceeded to do exactly that.
Steve </div></div>

As much as I hate to admit getting beat on a lag...it happened just the way pooltcher described it. I've been practicing now, and I'm ready for a "rematch" on the lag! LOL

Scott Lee

New2Pool
04-24-2008, 01:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">New2Pool2, these are the WPBA rules, but I don't think a - e all apply to the APA? Please correct me someone if I am wrong.
</div></div>

Thanks for the reminder. I have been concentrating on learning the WPBA rules so I forget to consider the APA. Looking up the lag rule on their website it appears to me that it would be a legal shot for the ball to stop past the head rail but it would not be an unbeatable shot since the winner is the one whose ball is closest to the head rail. It does not distinguish between the front or side of the head rail.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> LAG: Method used to start a match. Players simultaneously shoot a ball
from behind the head string, banking it off the foot rail and back to the head
of the table. Striking the side rails or any pocket results in loss of the lag.
The closest ball to the head rail wins. It is permissible to strike the head rail.
If the lagged balls make contact with each other, lag over.</div></div>

APA Website (http://www.poolplayers.com/materials.html)

pooltchr
04-24-2008, 06:08 PM
[quote=Scott Lee
As much as I hate to admit getting beat on a lag...it happened just the way pooltcher described it. I've been practicing now, and I'm ready for a "rematch" on the lag! LOL

Scott Lee [/quote]

Bring it on, my friend! Pool School in Charlotte will be in September this year. Are you planning on being in the area then?
Eddie and John are both committed to be here, but then they don't have as far to drive as you do. Anyway, whenever you are in the area, you know you've always got a playing partner.
Steve

Scott Lee
04-25-2008, 09:27 PM
Steve...It's certainly possible this year!

Scott Lee

Sid_Vicious
04-26-2008, 01:42 PM
The lag is simple. Stroke directly into the perfect center of the CB, thinking only about the purity of the hit and the exactness of the speed and impact onto the the bounding short rail. Smoothness and perfection of the stroke is all there is to it. sid

tatcat2000
04-28-2008, 09:13 PM
BCAPL rules also prohibit the ball coming to rest past the nose of the head cushion. See Rule 1.12.2(f) (pg. 24) and Diagram 6 (pg.18) at: http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

Buddy Eick, BCAPL National Senior Referee and
BCAPL Referee Training Coordinator
bca_referee@yahoo.com

<span style='font-size: 8pt'> The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in this forum.
 The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
 No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
 Not every imaginable rules issue has been addressed by the BCAPL. Nor will it ever be, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed appropriate, that ruling will then be added to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.</span>

Tom_In_Cincy
04-29-2008, 09:34 AM
Buddy,
Would you kindly explain why one of the largest and popular pool leagues in the USA doesn't follow the World Standard Rules?



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tatcat2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BCAPL rules also prohibit the ball coming to rest past the nose of the head cushion. See Rule 1.12.2(f) (pg. 24) and Diagram 6 (pg.18) at: http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

Buddy Eick, BCAPL National Senior Referee and
BCAPL Referee Training Coordinator
bca_referee@yahoo.com

<span style='font-size: 8pt'> The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in this forum.
 The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
 No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
 Not every imaginable rules issue has been addressed by the BCAPL. Nor will it ever be, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed appropriate, that ruling will then be added to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.</span> </div></div>

KellyStick
04-29-2008, 11:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigRigTom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So!
Joe and Dave.....
We should be hitting at the 60% mark above the table which is approximately 1 tip and the roll consistency will be maximized.

The only thing left is to figure how hard to stroke on a particular size table when the humidity is X and the cushion rebound is Y and the cloth speed is Z....

The result is a perfect lag every time....presto!
Thanks </div></div>

Tom, this one made me snicker, LOL. I see someone is posting for pool jokes. This might be one. It's all quite simple once you put it like this!

tatcat2000
04-29-2008, 01:54 PM
Tom (all),

I can only summarize by saying that the BCAPL felt that their membership would be better served by having their own rules. A press release to that effect was issued in May 2007 during the BCAPL Nationals.

Though I was honored to have been asked to assist in preparing the document, I do not make policy decisions and am not privy to all of the resoning behind the decision to move to their own rule book. My job is to answer questions based on that book. The reasons that I am aware of are far too complex to go into here, particularly just nine days before the largest pool tournament in the world. I (and the National Office) are totally snowed under right now trying to stay ahead of the administrative power curve in preparing for Nationals.

Buddy