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JJFSTAR
04-29-2008, 11:14 AM
In another post someone made the statement that sandbagging is cheating. We all know it isnít ethical for obvious reasons. But is it cheating? Does anyone out there know of any rules local, regional or national that state that sandbagging is cheating?

Rich R.
04-29-2008, 09:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In another post someone made the statement that sandbagging is cheating. We all know it isnít ethical for obvious reasons. But is it cheating? Does anyone out there know of any rules local, regional or national that state that sandbagging is cheating? </div></div>
Because the act of sandbagging results in the artificial manipulation of your handicap, it is cheating, whether or not it is spelled out in the rules.

1Time
04-29-2008, 09:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In another post someone made the statement that sandbagging is cheating. We all know it isn’t ethical for obvious reasons. But is it cheating? Does anyone out there know of any rules local, regional or national that state that sandbagging is cheating? </div></div>
Because the act of sandbagging results in the artificial manipulation of your handicap, it is cheating, whether or not it is spelled out in the rules. </div></div>
Oh good grief Charlie Brown. It's only cheating if it violates the rules.

Sid_Vicious
04-29-2008, 10:02 PM
Amen! Lot's of new players calls safeties, behind the line and roll outs as BS pool, rules are rules, play with them or get out. Frankly I won't play down for my own handicap, but why penalize my team by running up a stupid score, after the fact????sid

eb_in_nc
04-30-2008, 06:37 AM
Purposely missing the shot to manipulate your handicap in order to do better at tournaments is quite different than playing a safety in a defensive shot mode.

JJFSTAR
04-30-2008, 07:54 AM
Interesting results right away and not unexpected. I think that first we have to define sandbagging. What is it exactly, where do we draw the line? Is having a shot of whiskey and a big beer before the match starts after having come from dinner after having 1/2 a bottle of wine sandbagging? I think most of us would say no. However if you do that your not trying really hard to win IMHO.

Is purposely missing or purposely scratching or fouling sandbagging? I would say most of us would probably say yes.

The line for me gets crossed if one purposely tries to loose. When you are not trying really hard to win say by disturbing your rhythm, shooting harder, faster, more aggressively than you normally would, breaking your pre shot routine etc... I would not consider sandbagging.

However if you purposely follow the CB in with the 8, thatís where I draw the line. I am interested as to where everyone else draws the line.

Some players might have the opinion that not playing up to your full potential every time you step up to the table is not only unethical but down right cheating. Someone might throw in that it isn't cheating but it isn't good for your game. Yea we all know that.

While other people might say the rules are the rules if you donít like them go play in your basement.

I like to think I fall right in the middle. But I really want to know if that is the overriding opinion or not. Every once in a while I have to "check myself" keeps me honest and humble.

eb_in_nc
04-30-2008, 08:19 AM
The underlying issue I believe is why do we shoot league pool? For most of us, I would assume this would be because we enjoy the sport, the interaction & competition, and most of all, we want to win. I know I do because I just hate to lose for any reason, and under any circumstance. When I do, I beat myself up and reflect on what I did wrong in the match for days afterwards.

For those of us that come into this environment with some other agenda, I would venture to say they are playing for reasons most of us cannot even connect with, forget about whether or not it is cheating or ethical. It's more a disparity of sorts with the whole intent of what league play is about and why we show up each and every week.

The rules define what we can and can't do on the table, but unfortunately they can't do much about a person's intentions and how they might manipulate the match so long as they stay within the perceived framework of the rules themselves.

Sandbagging exists in golf, bowling, and many other sports where handicapping is involved to level the playing field, so billiards is not an exceptional case. If most of us watched for it and reported it when we thought it was happening in our match, the sport in general would be more pleasurable for the bulk of us.

JJFSTAR
04-30-2008, 09:17 AM
Well said eb_in_nc. My agenda though is winning and winning big. Our league would take pages to explain especially our team's situation this season. I am in agreement with you I think #1 win #2 have fun in that order. I donít think that the question of defining what sandbagging is and if it is unethical or cheating is completely invalid. I will agree that 99.99% of the time it is irrelevant but I canít say forget it.

BTW you forgot something that is HUGE!!!

Sampling the opposing teams chicken wings, burger & fries or pizza!!! It can really bum you out if you loose AND they have better food than you.

eb_in_nc
04-30-2008, 09:44 AM
JJFSTAR, yes, let us not forget the most important reason we show up every week, eating other's food even when they might lose!!

SpiderMan
04-30-2008, 12:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting results right away and not unexpected. I think that first we have to define sandbagging. What is it exactly, where do we draw the line? Is having a shot of whiskey and a big beer before the match starts after having come from dinner after having 1/2 a bottle of wine sandbagging? I think most of us would say no. However if you do that your not trying really hard to win IMHO.

Is purposely missing or purposely scratching or fouling sandbagging? I would say most of us would probably say yes.

The line for me gets crossed if one purposely tries to loose. When you are not trying really hard to win say by disturbing your rhythm, shooting harder, faster, more aggressively than you normally would, breaking your pre shot routine etc... I would not consider sandbagging.

However if you purposely follow the CB in with the 8, thatís where I draw the line. I am interested as to where everyone else draws the line.

Some players might have the opinion that not playing up to your full potential every time you step up to the table is not only unethical but down right cheating. Someone might throw in that it isn't cheating but it isn't good for your game. Yea we all know that.

While other people might say the rules are the rules if you donít like them go play in your basement.

I like to think I fall right in the middle. But I really want to know if that is the overriding opinion or not. Every once in a while I have to "check myself" keeps me honest and humble.
</div></div>

I think you've missed the point here. You're trying to define sandbagging as a "win/lose" scenario or a "playing to your potential" scenario, when you actually started this thread as an offshoot of the "APA SL 7" discussions in which APA sandbagging became a side topic.

If you've never studied the APA handicap system I understand; but sandbagging in APA is not a matter of whether you play to potential, nor is it a matter of losing when you could have won. In APA, you can win the game and still gain a future advantage from sandbagging.

In APA 8-ball, your handicap is primarily governed by the number of innings required to WIN a game. For a 7-ranked player, this is two innings or less. Most 7's I know average around one inning per win (an inning is marked when both players have taken one turn, so a break-and-run is zero innings and an ERO is one inning). The "6" skill level is defined as 2 to 3 innings per win, "5" is 3 to 4 innings per win, etc.

So, you can keep your handicap/SL from progressing by deliberately stretching out the number of innings in a game, EVEN THOUGH YOU WIN THE GAME. Some view this as a test of skill in itself - playing deliberate misses while still controlling the table and cinching the win, without having the scorekeeper realize the miss was defensive (defensive shots, if marked, cancel that inning count).

SpiderMan

JJFSTAR
04-30-2008, 01:23 PM
Thanks for clearing that up Spiderman; I have never played in the APA. And I knew nothing about that system until you explained it just now. I think I understand that part of the APA system seems a little complicated to me. Someone has to count the # of innings, mark down safeties etc... The west penn pool league doesnít have all of that and is not handicapped play.

Those who would be 7's in the APA are in one division. Who would be 5 & 6's are in another and so on; they would never meet in the regular season.
So for the WPPL it is winning and losing. Thatís because the only stats that are kept on you or your team is the total # of wins that season and your win %. But I started this thread to find out what sandbagging is defined by us as individuals. That is why I moved it from the APA 7 thread.

You see you have just said that what you consider sandbagging someone else considers a skill in and of itself and thatís what I want to know how far is too far in your opinion? Some say 1mm, some say a foot, some say a mile and others say "hey it isnít in the rules". IMHO the better players are going to be the least forgiving in this arena across the board.

So I am not missing a point I am asking a question not about the APA, league play or hustling but what constitutes sandbagging in everyoneís opinion. And is it unethical, cheating or neither? I understand you think itís cheating and I respect that; but I want everyoneís opinion thatís all.

Sid_Vicious
04-30-2008, 01:45 PM
"So, you can keep your handicap/SL from progressing by deliberately stretching out the number of innings in a game, EVEN THOUGH YOU WIN THE GAME. Some view this as a test of skill in itself - playing deliberate misses while still controlling the table and cinching the win, without having the scorekeeper realize the miss was defensive (defensive shots, if marked, cancel that inning count)."

To add to this well stated projection from Spiderman, there's definetely no immoral thoughts going throuh my head for playing a less than fundamental shot, "2-ways", knowing I'm certainly going to leave myself another shot, and yet, if I miss the intended ball, the opponent WON'T have a shot. I see it as a test upon myself partly for the shape ball and making a big shot at the same time, but mostly it's fun to see what I can do with the added insurance of the leave, after making or missing. Sure, it extends the innings and may help me in the long run later on, but it's not really an intentional miss.

Would it not be more condusive for the fun-factor to experiment with 2's and three, possibly give them extra innings, rather than murder them? I can't count the times I've "let a weaker player out" and been beaten, which stings just a little, but they are happy. In the end though, I could have sucessfully executed the personal test well, made the OB and set myself up for a "show-off" run out, and gotten praise from other player, we're both happy.

It all comes down to this..."Is it fair to judge any strong player for not shooting the natural shot at times, and call it sandbagging?" No. Is sandbagging real?, you betcha. In 8-ball you are playing a chess game, which is a chess game that sometimes extends beyond that particular event. All I'm saying is that you can play your game in different ways, realizing "it's only league", and actually add fun without intentionally sandbagging.

I play pool for myself, and testing myself in league not only gives me satisfaction, it might just open the game up for a weaker player so they get to play. It is very depressing to have game after game against a strong league team and simply watch run outs from the chair. I do appreciate the run out, don't get me wrong. Did I enjoy in the formative years when all I wanted to do was get to the table for at least one inning? Nope! It got old real fast. I say that you can spice up the game with testy shots, produce innings and actually add fun, all without intentional sandbagging. Losing ain't fun, but it's not totally un-fun either. It is all in your perspective...sid

SpiderMan
04-30-2008, 01:48 PM
I think it all comes down to intent. Are you sandbagging to gain an unfair advantage, or just to keep from making someone feel bad about losing so badly?

I will go on the record as considering APA sandbagging as cheating because it adds unearned points to the score of the sandbagger in match play.

In other words, If I have to give someone two games on the wire in an APA match, because they have represented themselves as a lesser player, when actually they give me the wild 8 any other time, they have lied and I've been cheated /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Suppose I entered a handicap tournament where no one knew me, and I said "well, I'm only a 5 in APA", and they seeded me accordingly. That would be lying. It would also be cheating, in my book. And it would be no different than actually keeping myself as a 5 by sandbagging. In that case, I'm just using my skill to create the lie.

SpiderMan

Deeman3
04-30-2008, 01:51 PM
No one wants a piece of you on a bar table, no matter how you or they are rated. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Now, on a nine footer???? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

JJFSTAR
04-30-2008, 01:53 PM
Thanks sid very insightful.

JJFSTAR
04-30-2008, 01:57 PM
Deeman what about a 9 footer in a bar? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
04-30-2008, 03:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In another post someone made the statement that sandbagging is cheating. We all know it isnít ethical for obvious reasons. But is it cheating? Does anyone out there know of any rules local, regional or national that state that sandbagging is cheating? </div></div>

Specifically there is no rule against missing on purpose. The problem comes when you get to a regional or national tournament and you start to play your true skill level.

In Vegas, IIRC, if a team's total skill level goes up by 3 games during the Nationals, the team is DQ'ed. One team got DQ'ed after winning the finals or semis a few years ago.

My personal opinion is, sandbagging is the work of the devil. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

SpiderMan
04-30-2008, 03:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one wants a piece of you on a bar table, no matter how you or they are rated. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Now, on a nine footer???? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

I hate playing on a table I can't straddle. Bridge heads are the #1 cause of shaft dents /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan

av84fun
04-30-2008, 11:53 PM
Your question and the nature of the answers is why I have never been attracted to league play...NO DISRESPECT INTENDED!!!

Just IMHO, I dislike the handicapping system but more than that, I dislike the concept of handicapping at all.

I understand the concept and it has been a BRILLIANT success of the major league franchisors...i.e. "give anyone a chance to win."

But that's what I personally don't care for.

It not only invites "gamesmanship/manipulation" of the handicapping system...it almost DEMANDS it.

About the only other major sport where handicapping exists is amateur golf but isn't it interesting how all those 25 handicappers manage to shoot 83 GROSS during the Member/Guest events!!

Again...no disrespect to the league players...it just isn't my cup of tea.

Regards,
Jim

Rich R.
05-01-2008, 07:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In another post someone made the statement that sandbagging is cheating. We all know it isn’t ethical for obvious reasons. But is it cheating? Does anyone out there know of any rules local, regional or national that state that sandbagging is cheating? </div></div>
Because the act of sandbagging results in the artificial manipulation of your handicap, it is cheating, whether or not it is spelled out in the rules. </div></div>
Oh good grief Charlie Brown. It's only cheating if it violates the rules. </div></div>
There are written rules and then there are unwritten ethical rules. To violate either is cheating, IMHO.

Some of us just have more self respect than others.

TCIndepMo
05-02-2008, 11:55 PM
Current APA national OFFICIAL TEAM MANUAL on page 30, para 23 contains the following wording "Intentionally missing shots for the purpose of increaseing innings and holding your skill level down to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent is cheating!"

So if you know where to look you can find it in writing that sandbagging IS cheating.

Players that try to parse their words and split some semantical hair so as to absolve themselves of such cheating only make it easier to spot the cheaters. Keep throwing up those smoke screens, boys! Thanks for the help.

Rich R.
05-03-2008, 06:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCIndepMo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Current APA national OFFICIAL TEAM MANUAL on page 30, para 23 contains the following wording "Intentionally missing shots for the purpose of increaseing innings and holding your skill level down to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent is cheating!"

So if you know where to look you can find it in writing that sandbagging IS cheating.

Players that try to parse their words and split some semantical hair so as to absolve themselves of such cheating only make it easier to spot the cheaters. Keep throwing up those smoke screens, boys! Thanks for the help. </div></div>
Thanks for looking that up.
I wasn't sure if it was there or not and I didn't have the time to look.

PlayersChoiceSTL
05-05-2008, 09:26 PM
Great response, SpiderMan. Here is a quote from the APA website.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandbagging is the unethical practice of keeping oneís skill level lower than it should be by missing balls or even by losing on purpose. If all deliberate misses (defensive shots) were marked, there would not be successful sandbagging. It is usually quite obvious when a player is sandbagging. Occasionally, a coach can be heard telling his player to miss a few times to run the innings up. It is important to report this type of behavior. In order for sandbagging to take place, BOTH players/teams must fail to follow the rules. The shooter must deliberately cheat, and his/her opponent must fail to mark the deliberate misses on the scoresheet.</div></div>

We find the words "unethical" and "cheat" in this definition. I think it's pretty clear. I'm not saying you can't have an off day/night...jeeze, we ALL have those times. I would say, though, that intentionally missing and NOT admitting to a safety constitutes sandbagging.

Here is another quote:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remember that defensive means deliberately missed. Players with integrity call all safeties and intentionally missed shots. The failure to mark defensive shots allows players and teams to advance with inaccurate skill levels. </div></div>

I have been accused of being too "black and white" at times, and this may be one of those times it's true, but hey...cheating is cheating. Let's call it what it is.

KellyStick
05-06-2008, 11:27 AM
Sid vicious mentions what I call the perfect shot. Not that I invented it but I have played to this end since I started back at pool years agao. That is a shot that I can make a ball, leave myself another shot and leave my opponent nothing if I miss. These shots are all over the table. Sometimes this means taking a harder than necessary shot but who cares. I leave my opponent nothing if I miss. I can't lose... mostly

Deeman3
05-06-2008, 12:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KellyStick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sid vicious mentions what I call the perfect shot. Not that I invented it but I have played to this end since I started back at pool years agao. That is a shot that I can make a ball, leave myself another shot and leave my opponent nothing if I miss. These shots are all over the table. Sometimes this means taking a harder than necessary shot but who cares. I leave my opponent nothing if I miss. I can't lose... mostly </div></div>

It used to be called a two way shot.

Rich R.
05-06-2008, 09:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KellyStick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sid vicious mentions what I call the perfect shot. Not that I invented it but I have played to this end since I started back at pool years agao. That is a shot that I can make a ball, leave myself another shot and leave my opponent nothing if I miss. These shots are all over the table. Sometimes this means taking a harder than necessary shot but who cares. I leave my opponent nothing if I miss. I can't lose... mostly </div></div>

It used to be called a two way shot. </div></div>

It still is, as far as I'm concerned.

Deeman3
05-07-2008, 08:00 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KellyStick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sid vicious mentions what I call the perfect shot. Not that I invented it but I have played to this end since I started back at pool years agao. That is a shot that I can make a ball, leave myself another shot and leave my opponent nothing if I miss. These shots are all over the table. Sometimes this means taking a harder than necessary shot but who cares. I leave my opponent nothing if I miss. I can't lose... mostly </div></div>

It used to be called a two way shot. </div></div>

It still is, as far as I'm concerned. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Yeah, but your an old geezer like me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</span>

PrdtrNick
05-07-2008, 10:46 AM
I get accused of sandbagging and I've only been playing for a little less than two years!! I'm now a SL4 and am from KY which apparently means I'm sangbagging because I've never heard so many players complain when I shot an out of state tournament. Even in league play I get accused of sandbagging, which I'm not! I'm simply still learning the game and because I have made a few good, more difficult shots, when I happen to miss a slightly easier one I wrongfully get accused of sandbagging.

I've never been one to toot my own horn but with the coaching I receive and the amount of practice and time I dedicate I know I can beat 5's and 6's at given times but not consistantly yet.

By the way guys, I'm new to the board and I look forward to learning from everyone and interacting on this site.

Deeman3
05-07-2008, 12:18 PM
I think many get accused of sandbagging when they are just inconsistent players.

MAC
05-07-2008, 01:04 PM
I agree with Deeman on that. The ones in my league that get accused of sandbagging are just inconsistent or overthink situations. One guy on my team is a SL3 but should easily be a SL5. The pressure gets to him, he rushes shots swaps sticks, thinks way too long about easy shots, etc. This caused him to get accused of sandbagging becuase they know how he shoots when its not a match. Some people just cant handle people watching them I guess.
Mac

JJFSTAR
05-07-2008, 01:20 PM
As I say in this thread "what is sandbagging and is it illegal?" it seems very hard to define sandbagging without having a high emotional response for some of us.

I ask a question and refine my point of view of what is sandbagging saying " what is sandbagging and is it illegal?" and I still get the answer "yea missing on purpose is illegal and unethical" I agree with the ladder point but it has a narrower view to the large question I am asking. The question I am asking is a big one. Thanks TCIndepMo for looking that up for all of us and I am glad someone actually bothered to put that in a rule book. In this thread; Sid seems to have the best handle on the basic question.

The question I am asking is ďTo you what is sandbagging and where do YOU as an individual draw the line?Ē the question of ďIs missing on purpose illegal or unethical?Ē is assumingly easy to answer by comparison. My answer to that question is of course it is letís not get silly. Do we know it isnít good for our game and the definitive test of ourselves? Well I am saying that of course we all know that we arenít going to sandbag our way to the finals in Vegas no matter what the level of play amateur or pro.

Av84fun you did not disrespect me, my league or team competition in general you gave your honest view on the question I asked; I thank you.

Bambu
05-07-2008, 01:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Deeman on that. The ones in my league that get accused of sandbagging are just inconsistent or overthink situations. One guy on my team is a SL3 but should easily be a SL5. The pressure gets to him, he rushes shots swaps sticks, thinks way too long about easy shots, etc. This caused him to get accused of sandbagging becuase they know how he shoots when its not a match. Some people just cant handle people watching them I guess.
Mac</div></div>

In my book, anybody with the legitimate skills of a 5 has no business being a 3(regardless of how much he chokes it).

eb_in_nc
05-07-2008, 02:14 PM
There's too much overlap on any given skill level and this is where we get in trouble with our expectations about how a SL 3 or 5 (or any number for that matter) should play. A very good 3 on a good night could easily shoot like a weak 5 but just hitting more consistently. I my mind it would be easier to distinguish the true sandbagger if the APA increased the SL's for 8-ball from 7 to 9.

For myself however in today's context of things, I have to draw the line somewhere. I understand what PrdtrNick says about still learning the game but to be honest, it makes me nervous when I play a SL 4, and they proceed to run out a rack knowing that they only need 3 games to my 5 to win the match, and I can't help but think that sandbagging is lurking somewhere out in the ether of things.

MAC
05-07-2008, 03:11 PM
Under most circumstances I would agree with you Bambu, but this guy gets so nervous during a match its silly.I mean hes literally sweating and jittery. He really is a weak 5 or a strong 4. We also play on 9ft tables during league which he probably still adjusting to as opposed to the 7fts we were accustomed to.

Deeman3
05-07-2008, 03:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Deeman on that. The ones in my league that get accused of sandbagging are just inconsistent or overthink situations. One guy on my team is a SL3 but should easily be a SL5. The pressure gets to him, he rushes shots swaps sticks, thinks way too long about easy shots, etc. This caused him to get accused of sandbagging becuase they know how he shoots when its not a match. Some people just cant handle people watching them I guess.
Mac</div></div>

In my book, anybody with the legitimate skills of a 5 has no business being a 3(regardless of how much he chokes it). </div></div>

<span style="color: #CC0000">But if he honestly chokes in those situations, he is probably more a 3 than a 5. </span>

SKennedy
05-07-2008, 03:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Deeman on that. The ones in my league that get accused of sandbagging are just inconsistent or overthink situations. One guy on my team is a SL3 but should easily be a SL5. The pressure gets to him, he rushes shots swaps sticks, thinks way too long about easy shots, etc. This caused him to get accused of sandbagging becuase they know how he shoots when its not a match. Some people just cant handle people watching them I guess.
Mac </div></div>

Play-off again last night and a guy on the opposing team was a SL 5 the last time we played them. Last night he had dropped to a 4, which I think is more consistent with his ability. However, he lost the deciding match to an SL3 on our team. And, at best, he looked like a 3. I figure it was just nerves! He is just inconsistent. Not sure how he became a 5, but he is fairly new to the league and I suspect as a new 4 he somehow managed to beat a 5 or 6 and became a 5. With time, he will settle where he needs to be. By the way, we won, so we will soon be playing to se if we make a trip to Vegas. I got beat last night badly by a fellow 5. He won 4 to zip! He played great defense and I could not put any games away when I had the chance. I think I was "thinking" too much.

MAC
05-07-2008, 03:36 PM
I am new to the APA myself, I got the brilliant idea I would round up some friends and start playing in a league. I'm glad I did. I really enjoy myself and have met some great people. I have never met a rude pool player or a rude dart player. I do have a question, about how long does it take a new player to get settled in their appropriate rank skill level??

Thanks Mac

PlayersChoiceSTL
05-07-2008, 04:09 PM
I'm glad you're enjoying the APA. I agree...for the most part, I have always found the folks I shoot pool with to be honorable and fair. I hope you continue to have fun!

To answer your question, they say it takes about 20 matches to "settle" into a true ranking.

BigRigTom
05-07-2008, 05:26 PM
Mac, a new player in the APA is considered properly ranked after he has completed 10 matches but his skill level will probably be some what volitile until about 20 matches because the skill level is based on the best 10 of the last 20 matches.

MAC
05-07-2008, 07:05 PM
Thanks,BRT and PCSTL. Hope my next 10 matches go better than my first 10 haha.

Bambu
05-07-2008, 10:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under most circumstances I would agree with you Bambu, but this guy gets so nervous during a match its silly.I mean hes literally sweating and jittery. He really is a weak 5 or a strong 4. We also play on 9ft tables during league which he probably still adjusting to as opposed to the 7fts we were accustomed to. </div></div>

I suppose there are always exceptions, mac. And as dee pointed out, if he truly plays like a 3 when the heat is on, hes a 3.
I just played another 6 tonight. And I did something I didnt think was possible, I marked the wrong pocket! Naturally, it was the last match...many beers into the night, and none of my team mates had my back. I still won, but that was pretty embarassing.
Now the guy I played also happened to be a division rep, and a very nice guy too. So I asked him about what we have been talking about, the apa system. Tom and others have said that the handicap should be based on your last 10 matches. Seems reasonable to me, but in our division, things just arent consistent from player to player. I asked the rep what it took to jump from a 5 to a 6, and told him there was a 5 that was 14-0 in our division. His answer was that he had to win 30 of 35 matches to make the jump. Meanwhile my captain went 4-2 in 6 matches, and went to a 5(and the games werent special either).
Years ago there was a greek deli on my block. Depending on what time of day you went in, either the father, mother or son would be running the store. Each one of them had a different price for every item in the store, nothing was marked. They just estimated the prices as they went along. As kids we joked about it, and called it the night tax/day tax store. That roundabout way of doing business, is pretty much what the apa does. I'm not knocking it, its still pool. I'd just like to see the league operator actually do something besides paperwork. If I had a 5 that was 10-0 in MY league(not that I have one), I would make it a point to get off my ass and look at his game.

PrdtrNick
05-08-2008, 06:45 AM
eb_in_nc I understand completely what you are saying about having a difficult time when a SL4 runs a rack on you. I think as others have already said there is also a "pressure factor" that comes into play. In my mind there is no doubt I'll eventually be a SL5 and I've been told I'll have no problem being a SL6 in time. Pressure gets to me very easily though; I know all the shots and I know what speed to execute them, I know the break out shots a fair amount of time and I know when to play defense but more times than not it seems as if the pressure just gets to me. Now if I'm playing a non league match (nothing on the line) I've been known to run a rack or just leave someone locked up with a good defense.

Those who do know me know two things about me....
#1 I want to be the best player I can be and I'll never throw off to keep my rank down. If I miss a shot I'll se this same shot up 20 times until I'm satisfied.
#2 I get pissed at myself!!! Knowing that I can break and run and do so well in non league or tournament matches when I miss a straight in shot or just don't execute a shot I'll get pissed at myself and then it's a mental challenge with myself. I think the one downfall to my game is my temper.

I think all these factors come into play when considering someone playing below their SL.

Deeman3
05-08-2008, 07:37 AM
[quote=Bambu And I did something I didnt think was possible, I marked the wrong pocket! Naturally, it was the last match...many beers into the night, and none of my team mates had my back. I still won, but that was pretty embarassing.[/quote]

<span style="color: #CC0000"> Bambu:

LOL, If you think about it, you may live to 100 and run racks upon racks but that marking the wrong pocket will be a memory forever. Just thank God they have named you Wrong Pocket or some such tag! Good story... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</span>

eb_in_nc
05-08-2008, 07:50 AM
The pressure factor is just one factor that causes someone to shoot differently on the table from night to night. I think what we are trying to identify in this thread is what makes someone's play variable, and is this variability a form of sandbagging if indeed it is purposeful?

When observing some people while shooting, I would have you consider the player who executes several well managed shots in a row controlling his position and speed on the CB, and then he slams and misses the next shot like he reverted back to some lower life form on the pool table. I've seen this many times, and I am sure most of us have seen this sort of scenario happen all too often. So I ponder, is this guy still learning the game, is he just not thinking and losing his concentration as it cannot sustain him more than 2 - 3 shots?, is he having a mental fugue where he forgets what he is doing, or is playing a game with all of us by sandbagging?

SKennedy
05-08-2008, 09:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am new to the APA myself, I got the brilliant idea I would round up some friends and start playing in a league. I'm glad I did. I really enjoy myself and have met some great people. I have never met a rude pool player or a rude dart player. I do have a question, about how long does it take a new player to get settled in their appropriate rank skill level??

Thanks Mac
</div></div>

Although I had played quite a bit of pool in my early years, which included quite a few local and some bigger tournaments, etc., I was very nervous when I started playing league. My first match my hands were shaking so badly I had difficulty racking! And, this behavior just wasn't normal for me. I started my first session over 1 year ago. I did not feel comfortable until the very end of the first session....about 16 matches or so. I felt like I was hitting my normal stride about the time we hit the play-offs. I just find my "emotions" to be different playing for a team than just playing for myself. But, like you I am having fun!
I agree with the others about 20 matches or so. Again, for me it was about 16.

SpiderMan
05-08-2008, 09:33 AM
Playing as a SL7, I always felt that my toughest match was against a good strong SL4, because this is the highest skill level that still only has to win two games against me. A SL2, SL3, or SL4 only needs two games against a SL7.

A SL4 is often good enough to get out or play safe if you make a mistake late in the game. Losing just one game on a careless mistake puts the SL4 on the hill immediately, and the SL7 must then play without error for the entire remaining match (possibly still needing five wins).

Another complication to this is the fact that male players are "started" in the APA as SL4s. If a SL7 encounters a relatively-new SL4, he may very well be playing an equal who has not "gone up" yet, or has been sandbagging. And he must still beat the guy 5-0 or 5-1, or lose. It's somewhat risky for a captain to match his SL7 against a good SL4. Likewise, a smart captain will often throw his strong SL4 on an opponent's less-than-stellar SL7.

SpiderMan

Bambu
05-08-2008, 09:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]</span>

I'm not outta the woods yet Dee. Next week is the last week, but I'm sure I will catch some heat!

BigRigTom
05-08-2008, 11:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When observing some people while shooting, I would have you consider the player who executes several well managed shots in a row controlling his position and speed on the CB, and then he slams and misses the next shot like he reverted back to some lower life form on the pool table. I've seen this many times, and I am sure most of us have seen this sort of scenario happen all too often. So I ponder, is this guy still learning the game, is he just not thinking and losing his concentration as it cannot sustain him more than 2 - 3 shots?, is he having a mental fugue where he forgets what he is doing, or is playing a game with all of us by sandbagging?
</div></div>

I had a game of 8 ball a couple of weeks ago where I broke and ran down to the 8 ball, got a straight in leave on the 8 into the corner, proceed to line up on the straight in and when I pulled the trigger the adrenalene was pumping with the thought of a break and run in the bag.....I.... (as you described)....fired the cue ball with what should have been a stop shot on a straight in 8 ball....but...I some how managed to hit a little above center and that cue ball just hesitated a split second and then rammed into the pocket right behine the 8. Talk about embarrASSing! I still managed to win that match but let me tell you it was another lesson in humility. It can happen to anyone!

Go back and look at the video of Efrin Reyes in the World Championship match when he and Bustamonte were playing Japan last year. Reyes missed an almost straight in shot on the 9 ball in the corner after making several amazing shots in that rack to get to the 9. He just chuckled and turned and sat down looking confused as to how that could happen!

eb_in_nc
05-08-2008, 12:10 PM
Unfortunately Tom, it happens to the best, and the worst of us on occasion. I've been where you've were in your match all too often and it never fails to amaze me how we can so let go of this great feat of running all the balls off the table only to miss a fundamentally no-brainer shot on the 8.

Perhaps it's the anticlimax of having done what you did and then being left with a very easy shot on the 8 which takes our mental state down several notches setting us up for the miss.

The quintessential "8-ball choke" has always had me baffled. When I practice at home, I will for 10 or 15 minutes only shoot the 8 ball, in different pockets, from different positions, as to allow me to be comfortable shooting just this ball and mentally try to reduce the significance of it by itself. I still however on occasion do what you described in your match from a few weeks ago, so it's not 100% by any means.

Ironman
05-08-2008, 01:52 PM
Spiderman-

I know what you're talking about, but from the other direction.

I joined two APA leagues in San Francisco this year after not being in a league for a few years. I was started as an SL4, although the operator did check with the APA regarding my previous results (about 9-10 matches 5 years ago in New York). Anyway, I had been playing okay and then about 2-3 weeks ago I really started to focus during matches and crushed a 6 on a Wednesday (3-0) and beat a 7 on a Thursday (2-1).

I felt bad for the SL7, since our 3 games only took 1 total inning and about 10-12 minutes to finish. I was just focused against a good opponent and there wasn't much he could do. He seemed like a pretty solid SL7 too.

Of course, the very next week I had moved up to a SL5 and played a SL3 who was only 2-4 in league play up to that point. He ran 6-7 balls on me to win the first game and he was playing a little too well for me to win 4 in a row to win the match (scratching on an 8-ball made it an easy win for him).

Ironman
05-08-2008, 01:55 PM
BTW, in regards to uneven play, I don't think someone can say that any new player is sandbagging. Their rating may just have not increased yet, or they're still new to league play and working through the team concept and any associated pressure.

There are days when I play at about a SL6 level, and some days when I can't hit much in a row and play closer to a SL3. It can even change rack to rack. Now, I'm competitive as hell and want a high rating because it lets me play more games, but even if I wasn't there'd be no way to tell if I was sandbagging until someone had seen me play in many, many matches.

Sid_Vicious
05-08-2008, 02:31 PM
"Go back and look at the video of Efrin Reyes in the World Championship match when he and Bustamonte were playing Japan last year. Reyes missed an almost straight in shot on the 9 ball in the corner after making several amazing shots in that rack to get to the 9. He just chuckled and turned and sat down looking confused as to how that could happen!"

I believe that CJ Wiley had one of those himself, in a really costly loss of prize winnings. Nobody but "The Magician" can smile the way he does and "go on." Everyone should take a lesson from that guy...sid~~~seen cues snapped, total cool lost and an even more dismal player, sometimes seemingly for life

BigRigTom
05-08-2008, 04:10 PM
Yep, I saw Earl the Pearl slam his cue against the table after missing a shot ...he was on TV....the shaft splintered and he had to bend over and pickup the pieces before he could go sit down....not a pretty site, especially in front of a TV camera and audience but that is the PEARL!

pooltchr
05-08-2008, 07:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The quintessential "8-ball choke" has always had me baffled. </div></div>

One factor very few players consider in this situation. You have a routine you go through for every shot on the table. One thing you do is make a conscious decision as to where you want the cue ball to go after the shot. When you shoot at the last ball on the table, do you break your routine and skip that step in your process? The result is shooting the money ball before your brain has had the chance to make all the decisions it is supposed to make on every shot.
Just something to think about.
Steve

eb_in_nc
05-09-2008, 07:18 AM
Steve, I have that same thought. Because there is no other ball to play on the table while shooting at the 8 ball, this does break up the flow since it is the last ball on the table and no position (other than not scratching) is considered when shooting the shot.

So what do you suggest we do mentally here to better prepare for shooting the "money ball"?
Eric B.

Ironman
05-09-2008, 09:17 AM
Unless it's a dead straight shot I usually figure out where I want to leave the cue ball after an 8-ball shot even though I'm not playing position on another ball. The area I try to put the cue ball may not be as exact, though, since I try not use any english on a shot like that.

SKennedy
05-09-2008, 04:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Playing as a SL7, I always felt that my toughest match was against a good strong SL4, because this is the highest skill level that still only has to win two games against me. A SL2, SL3, or SL4 only needs two games against a SL7.

A SL4 is often good enough to get out or play safe if you make a mistake late in the game. Losing just one game on a careless mistake puts the SL4 on the hill immediately, and the SL7 must then play without error for the entire remaining match (possibly still needing five wins).

Another complication to this is the fact that male players are "started" in the APA as SL4s. If a SL7 encounters a relatively-new SL4, he may very well be playing an equal who has not "gone up" yet, or has been sandbagging. And he must still beat the guy 5-0 or 5-1, or lose. It's somewhat risky for a captain to match his SL7 against a good SL4. Likewise, a smart captain will often throw his strong SL4 on an opponent's less-than-stellar SL7.

SpiderMan </div></div>

Hey Spidey! The same, of course is true for a SL 5 and 6! Although we have to win fewer games.....But doesn't a 4 have to win 3 games? A girl in our league who was a 3 has been terrorizing the heck out of 5's. Last week she finally was a 4! Her death reign is over!

pooltchr
05-09-2008, 06:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve, I have that same thought. Because there is no other ball to play on the table while shooting at the 8 ball, this does break up the flow since it is the last ball on the table and no position (other than not scratching) is considered when shooting the shot.

So what do you suggest we do mentally here to better prepare for shooting the "money ball"?
Eric B.

</div></div>
Stick with your routine. Look at the shot and make a conscious decision where you want the cue ball to end up after the shot, just like you do on every other shot.
Consistency comes from doing the same things, the same way, EVERY time!
Steve

dave666
05-11-2008, 01:24 PM
i believe sandbagging is cheating simply because leagues have handicaps to give the less experienced player and even a less experienced team a chance to play the better teams without getting beat so badly they dont show up next week. so for a player to "not play to his level defeats the perpose of even haveing a handicap. and there is regulations behind sandbaggers.

i believe that if your handicap goes up twice in the nationals you are disqualified to play. so i think the league is calling it cheating by doing this.

and for you sandbaggers out there "do you think so poorly of your game that you have to manipulate YOUR HANDICAP so that you are surely the winner?" YES THAT IS CHEATING

MAC
05-12-2008, 10:57 AM
I dont know about everyone else,but our league operators dont pay attention to squat.They could very easily correct some peoples SL,but instead complaints just go unheard. It seems to me if the LO were doing there job sandbagging wouldnt be so easy to get by with.

Coroner
05-25-2008, 11:57 PM
This is a great question. I am new to the APA, I've only played in the league for about 9 months and only played pool for about two years.

In the APA league I play in, no one call "safety" before or after each safety shot, so neither do I. If I'm asked by the scorekeeper if I played safe I always answer honestly, but if I'm not asked and it is not marked, I let it go. I'm still a newbie and I'm not rocking the boat. I am now a SL6 player and and win about 50% of my matches against other SL6's and have a losing record against SL7's (all the SL7's in my league are signicantly better than I am). So, I am chating, but so is my opponent (unless he's a SL7, becuase then it doesn' matter, I don't think). It does bother me and maybe when I am more established I will stand up to it. I hope to play well enough to become a SL7 soon (one year plan), so it won't matter anyway. I don't mind if my opponent doesn't record all his safeties either, I try to beat everyone regardless, just more of a challenge.

IMO, it is cheating, but since we all cheat the same way, it works (sort of) in our league. I don't know how other leagues operate? Is anyone in an APA league where everyone announces "safety" and there is signifcant enough peer pressure that it is always announced? That would be the only way it really would be honest. Personally, I would really enjoy that league.

Rich R.
05-26-2008, 06:38 AM
Inaccurate score keeping is a big problem with the APA. People complain about the system, but it is not the system that is bad, it is the people who are not working the system properly.

I try to announce all of my defensive shots, but I know everyone doesn't. However, when keeping score, it is up to you to determine if a player was trying to make a ball or not. According to the APA, if a player is not trying to make a ball, it is a defensive shot and should be marked. The shooter doesn't have to announce the shot as a safety or defensive shot.

Vapros
05-26-2008, 07:29 AM
In any sport that uses a handicapping system, there will be players who circumvent the system by not making their best effort at certain times, and they don't seem to care much whether you call it sandbagging, cheating or dumping. They feel that the end justifies the means.

I don't want to play in such a league with those players. So I don't.

eb_in_nc
05-26-2008, 12:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Inaccurate score keeping is a big problem with the APA. People complain about the system, but it is not the system that is bad, it is the people who are not working the system properly.

I try to announce all of my defensive shots, but I know everyone doesn't. However, when keeping score, it is up to you to determine if a player was trying to make a ball or not. According to the APA, if a player is not trying to make a ball, it is a defensive shot and should be marked. The shooter doesn't have to announce the shot as a safety or defensive shot.

</div></div>

I agree, I announce my defensive shots since most people keeping score are not paying attention at that level, and indicating your defensive shots help to add integrity to the game.

Jager85
06-05-2008, 09:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In another post someone made the statement that sandbagging is cheating. We all know it isnít ethical for obvious reasons. But is it cheating? Does anyone out there know of any rules local, regional or national that state that sandbagging is cheating? </div></div>

I know a local 7 who played in the Windy City Open a couple of years back. He won his first 2 matches and in the 3rd it was down to hill-hill. After missing a shot that should have been made and getting nervous, he was unscrewing his cue a little and tightiening it again, to relieve tension. He was seen by the opponent and kicked out of the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct. If this is unsportsmanlike conduct, then sandbagging definately is.

BTW in the APA rulebook sportsmanship is a rule...