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1Time
04-29-2008, 04:22 PM
Is it the Indian or the arrow? In other words, does the pool player or the pool cue/tip explain the difference in performance?

Do you agree with my answers to this question for each of these examples?

Example 1:
Two players who prefer sharing the same cue between them (just an example) shoot pool over an extended period of time with the same one cue, and one player shoots significantly better than the other.
Answer: Indian

Example 2:
Two players who have had their choice of any cue/tip to use chose different model cues/tips, and shoot with their own cue of choice over an extended period of time. One player shoots significantly better than the other.
Answer: Indian

Example 3:
Twenty players who prefer sharing the same one cue (just an example) shoot pool over an extended period of time with 20 different model cues/tips chosen at random for each and every shot. One player consistently shoots significantly better than the others.
Answer: Indian

Example 4:
One player who prefers shooting with his own cue "A", extensively compares it with pool cue/tip "B" and finds he shoots better pool with cue/tip "B".
Answer: arrow

Example 5:
Two players prefer shooting with their own cue which are different models of cues/tips, and player "A" routinely shoots better than player "B". Player "B" starts shooting with a different cue/tip and shortly thereafter routinely shoots better pool than player "A".
Answer: arrow

dave666
04-30-2008, 10:38 AM
well, i think everyone has their own opinion on whether a cue hits the way they want it to. i personally like very little deflection in a cue, but that can be cured by changing to a stiffer shaft. sometimes i can improve my shot making ability by changing from a flimsy shaft to a more stiffer one. and vise- versa. do this... tke a 12.5mm shaft and cut a ball as far down a rail to the pocket as you can... do that 20 times to get used to it. then take a 13.25 shaft with the same butt and do the same thing. you will see a definate difference. this means the arrow controls the indian sometimes ...and the indian controls the arrow sometimes. how often do you have to adjust the way you shoot a shot because of the way the stick hits? most likely alot more than you think... so i believe that the player that can adjust to the different cues is the one who will come out best in the scenerio you have (if the players play evenly with their own cues)

cushioncrawler
04-30-2008, 05:01 PM
I think that Example 1 and 2 dont agree with Example 4. If 4 (arrow) iz korrekt, then this introduces the possibility that 1 (indian) might not be correct, and 2 (indian) might not be korrekt. madMac.

av84fun
04-30-2008, 11:34 PM
Without answering each of the questions, the "correct answer" is "none of the above."

Player achievement is NEVER a function of JUST the player or JUST the cue.

In addition, the relative contribution of those two aspects is largely a function of the skill level of the player.

Reyes can beat most "A" players (sub-shortstop) with a house cue but a strong B player might fall completely apart trying to use one.

Regards,
Jim

Billy_Bob
05-01-2008, 07:41 AM
Also there is the "placebo effect". Hand someone a cue and say that this cue is "XYZ pro's" cue. That the pro has won many tournaments with this cue. That this cue is the best in the world. (Etc.)

Then tell the person: "You will win many games with this cue. You will play your best ever."

Then watch this person go and play better than ever. (The cue can be any cue.)

wolfdancer
05-01-2008, 10:11 AM
It all goes back to Zen Archery:

"The archer ceases to be conscious of himself as the one who is engaged in hitting the bull's-eye which confronts him. This state of unconscious is realized only when, completely empty and rid of the self, he becomes one with the perfecting of his technical skill, though there is in it something of a quite different order which cannot be attained by any progressive study of the art..."

Eric.
05-01-2008, 12:58 PM
I'm thinking it's the bow.


Eric

SKennedy
05-01-2008, 01:56 PM
Maybe the difference is what they had for breakfast? Or supper the night before? The last time they saw their mother? Too many variables......

However:
Player A (yours truly) useing the best customized equipment money can buy-
vs.
Player B who is a world class player using a broom handle.
Result - Player B wins all games.
In this case.......Indian!

1Time
05-03-2008, 01:01 PM
Take a look at the advertising at this site for Kamui tips: http://www.kamuitips.com/. It's an extremely poor yet effective argument for the "arrow". Just double click on a picture and the video should start in your media player.

Note that several videos are provided, yet each features the same pool player, probably the same cue/tip hardness, and similar massive draw shots using inside draw or center draw.

Why no comparison of the performance of this tip with a more average player?

Why no comparison of the performance of this tip with other types of shots like follow and English?

And why no comparison of the performance of this tip with any other brand of tip?

Do these videos "prove" it's the arrow? No.

Do these videos "prove" it's the Indian? No.

Do these videos "prove" this pool player can perform these shots with one pool cue/tip hardness? Yes.

This type of advertising is extremely common. Sellers use it to maximize the perception of superiority of their product because IF adequately compared, such perception would not exist or be far less. In which case, better informed buyers would be much less likely to buy their product.

I have not used a Kamui tip, and I have not posted this as a slam or promotion of Kamui tips. I posted this as a good example for the purpose of this thread.

wolfdancer
05-03-2008, 02:16 PM
As in Golf....you can't "buy" yourself a game, but the right equipment for your skills can help.
Back in the 70's Meucci cues gave the ordinary player a little more "action" with his stroke. My understanding was that the pros didn't like them for that very reason.....they wanted more control.

Rich R.
05-03-2008, 02:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take a look at the advertising at this site for Kamui tips: http://www.kamuitips.com/. It's an extremely poor yet effective argument for the "arrow". Just double click on a picture and the video should start in your media player.

Note that several videos are provided, yet each features the same pool player, probably the same cue/tip hardness, and similar massive draw shots using inside draw or center draw.

Why no comparison of the performance of this tip with a more average player?

Why no comparison of the performance of this tip with other types of shots like follow and English?

And why no comparison of the performance of this tip with any other brand of tip?

Do these videos "prove" it's the arrow? No.

Do these videos "prove" it's the Indian? No.

Do these videos "prove" this pool player can perform these shots with one pool cue/tip hardness? Yes.

This type of advertising is extremely common. Sellers use it to maximize the perception of superiority of their product because IF adequately compared, such perception would not exist or be far less. In which case, better informed buyers would be much less likely to buy their product.

I have not used a Kamui tip, and I have not posted this as a slam or promotion of Kamui tips. I posted this as a good example for the purpose of this thread. </div></div>

Although I have no doubt that these are very good quality tips, I don't believe the videos prove a thing.

It is very obvious that the player making the shots has a great stroke and I would be willing to bet that he can make the same shots with a number of different tips.

1Time
05-10-2008, 10:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Although I have no doubt that these are very good quality tips, I don't believe the videos prove a thing. </div></div>
Yes, the videos do prove a thing. They prove this player can perform these shots. Most likely he's using the same stick and tip/hardness. And most likely it's a Kamui tip.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is very obvious that the player making the shots has a great stroke and I would be willing to bet that he can make the same shots with a number of different tips.
</div></div>
Maybe this player could shoot those shots with a number of different tips. But which tip does this player prefer and why? Does this Kamui tip work better for this player for these and other shots than other tips he has used? Many players posting in this forum and pros have been reported to prefer one tip over another when comparing them. And in that respect the player in this video is surely no different. And that's the arrow aspect of the equation. The Indian aspect of this is not many could shoot those shots no matter what tip or stick they used.

1Time
05-10-2008, 11:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As in Golf....you can't "buy" yourself a game, but the right equipment for your skills can help.</div></div>
While it is true many are not likely to be able to buy a pro level game, many can buy a better game. A golfer or pool player can do so with the expenditure of money for lessons, practice, and better equipment.

Rich R.
05-10-2008, 02:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe this player could shoot those shots with a number of different tips. But which tip does this player prefer and why? Does this Kamui tip work better for this player for these and other shots than other tips he has used? Many players posting in this forum and pros have been reported to prefer one tip over another when comparing them. And in that respect the player in this video is surely no different. And that's the arrow aspect of the equation. The Indian aspect of this is not many could shoot those shots no matter what tip or stick they used. </div></div>
From the video, there is no way for us to know which brand of tip this player prefers. It is not even possible for us to verify that he is using a Kamui tip, let alone verify that the Kamui is his tip of preference. All the video proves is that this player is capable of making these shots, nothing more.
If we accept the fact that this player is using a Kamui tip, there is certainly no evidence that this is his tip of choice. Accepting the fact that he is using a Kamui tip and that these videos are on a Kamui web site, for the advertisement of their tips, I think we can also assume that there is a good chance that he received the Kamui tip for free, in order to make the video. So we are back to square one. This is obviously a good player. The videos say little about the tips.
I have to agree with you, in that every player on this forum, whether pro, amateur or even beginner, prefers a certain tip. Everyone must choose a tip for themself. No one can tell which tip will feel and play the best for someone else.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to knock the Kamui tips in any way. I have been thinking about trying them myself. All I mean to say is that the videos in question tell us nothing about the tips. I doubt if any video could tell us what we need to know about any tip. We each need to try a tips and determine if what is good for ourself.