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eg8r
05-06-2008, 06:47 AM
Watch the web for climate change truths (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/05/04/do0405.xml)

Before everyone starts bashing the article can anyone please bash the following bullets first so I know where you are coming from.
<ul> US National Climate Data Center, run by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Steve McIntyre Cryosphere Today (http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/) Nasa's Jet Propulsion Laboratory Anthony Watts[/list]


eg8r

SKennedy
05-07-2008, 09:07 AM
Unfortunately, all science will suffer once the public learns their trust in the science of global warming has been misplaced. One day there will be a real issue that threatens us, but the memories of global cooling, Y2K, global warming, and others will make a mockery of something valid.

wolfdancer
05-07-2008, 01:48 PM
I'm glad that you both can dismiss what is really happening in the Artic so easily...and lump it in with Y2K.
You both seem to think it's something the left dreamed up to get you to feel guilty about driving your SUV's, and in Ed's case, a Hummer. But since the right wing autocracy doesn't want to lose it's $$ arrangement with the sand people, especially since the Bush ranch will be moving to Dubai...they need to make this a political issue, and keep America using lots of oil.

Deeman3
05-07-2008, 01:54 PM
I would like to see an open debate with scientists on both sides with their funding fully disclosed and political associations known.

Wolf and I could moderate it and firearms would be allowed. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I agree with Bill Oreilly, of course, a dirty planet is a bad thing and we should ake it cleaner, healthier and take more care of it. It is silly to reject either side out of hand on this issue. We will spend more on proving and disproving UFO's this year than we will in real conversation, minus the yelling, on really discussing this. Shame

SKennedy
05-07-2008, 03:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see an open debate with scientists on both sides with their funding fully disclosed and political associations known.

Wolf and I could moderate it and firearms would be allowed. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I agree with Bill Oreilly, of course, a dirty planet is a bad thing and we should ake it cleaner, healthier and take more care of it. It is silly to reject either side out of hand on this issue. We will spend more on proving and disproving UFO's this year than we will in real conversation, minus the yelling, on really discussing this. Shame </div></div>

If you're talking about legitimate scientific debate and true scientific peer review, then great. That's what should have been done long ago. Instead, we have one side vs the other side with their vested interests. Generally though what I have seen, despite Wolf's "howling", is that real science indicates no specific correlation as presented by the global warming alarmists, and they just say there is not enough evidence one way or the other.

I'm not a climate expert and I only base my own opinion on my limited knowledge and experiences, but more importantly by what I have read and studied by those I believe to be some of the top scientists in this area of expertise. And contrary to what others may say, not all are funded by Bush or big oil, and not all of them are "whores" who will sell-out. And I don't think scientists on the other side have done the same thing. Are these guys wrong? Maybe. Am I wrong? Maybe. I have always advocated that "true" science should be allowed to investigate and take it's course. But, we have allowed "junk" science to permeate our society. Everybody and anybody who has taken a science class, or claims to be an expert, is suddenly an expert. These people use to be relegated to the National Inquirer...or whatever it was or still is....now they are quoted and accepted routinely by all mainsteam media. And I'm including Gore's movie as "junk science." And yes, I've seen his little movie several times. To me, his movie is akin to a Michael Moore documentary with some very biased science thrown in. And Wolf, I know what they say about the Arctic and Antarctica...and the rest of it. And I still hold to my opinion and my convictions. One of us is right and one is wrong, but either way our opinions are based upon what we perceive as being valid. Just because we disagree doesn't mean that one of us is intelligent and the other is a moron! Or that one hates his mother and the other doesn't , etc. I respect your opinion and understand why you and others have that opinion. I just disagree with it....and I may be wrong.
And for the record, I do believe in a clean planet. I also believe in common sense and fair play. I do not believe most doomsday predictions or pay much attention to created crises, and I do not believe in most conspiracy theories.

Deeman3
05-07-2008, 03:23 PM
Steve,

Not to say you do. I think reasonable, thoughtful debate is a thing of the past. Unfortuantely, every statement, study, p;osition and belief is now a matter of who is the largest group, who is loudest and who feels they carry the moral high ground. Political correctness now rules the day.

I think we are saying the same thing. The divide on the political front is now so wide, McCain and Obama must be each demonized by the other side. No more can we think of opposite sides of an argument as a different reasoning of a difficult subject but only of one evil, one good, pick your poison.

It may be natural progression of loss of faith in leadership or distrust of the common decency of others but it is as a cancer on debate and reasoned discussion. That is sadder than any of the individual positions we can take on issues and probably an end to how we used to come together to solve problems. Now only one side can win or be "right."

MAC
05-07-2008, 03:27 PM
I could be out of line and just want to throw my two cents worth in. but the earths temperature has been cooling since I think 1998 or something and even when it wasnt, there was something like a maximum two degree average increase. We have not been destroying the ozone it opens and closes on its own to act as a thermostat, blah blah blah....

SKennedy
05-07-2008, 03:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve,

Not to say you do. I think reasonable, thoughtful debate is a thing of the past. Unfortuantely, every statement, study, p;osition and belief is now a matter of who is the largest group, who is loudest and who feels they carry the moral high ground. Political correctness now rules the day.

I think we are saying the same thing. The divide on the political front is now so wide, McCain and Obama must be each demonized by the other side. No more can we think of opposite sides of an argument as a different reasoning of a difficult subject but only of one evil, one good, pick your poison.

It may be natural progression of loss of faith in leadership or distrust of the common decency of others but it is as a cancer on debate and reasoned discussion. That is sadder than any of the individual positions we can take on issues and probably an end to how we used to come together to solve problems. Now only one side can win or be "right." </div></div>

As usual you say it so well! We can't debate any more. We just scream and call each other names. Many don't even realize they are doing it. Just look at our posts, and I'm guilty as well, at how much name calling there really is going on. "You don't agree with me because you are just plain dumb!"
I am really getting sick and tired of political correctness!

SKennedy
05-07-2008, 03:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could be out of line and just want to throw my two cents worth in. but the earths temperature has been cooling since I think 1998 or something and even when it wasnt, there was something like a maximum two degree average increase. We have not been destroying the ozone it opens and closes on its own to act as a thermostat, blah blah blah.... </div></div>

In the late 80's or about 1990, I was asked to speak to a couple of classes of 5th graders about environmental issues. I did, and it was well received. I was then asked to do the same for the entire 5th grade body of students, which are numerous! I was not new to this type of speaking, but I will admit that these kids were my hardest and toughest audience ever. You're not sure what they will understand, but you quickly learn not to underestimate their abilities to comprehend. To prepare for my talk I got students to tell mke what they were learning. Almost all of them were learning about doomsday scenarios and thought they were not going to live to adulthood because of the ozone problem and other perceived environmental issues at the time. I could not believe these kids were so scared and literally losing sleep worried about these issues. My talk? Basically, I stressed the importance of clean surface water, groundwater, drinking water, air, and all those other things, but then I started to explain to them that the jury was still out relative to the ozone layer and gloom and doom predictions, etc. I also told them that our surface water, groundwater, and air was, for the most part, actually cleaner than it was during the 1960's and '70's and explained why, etc. Yes, the majority of the elementary teachers there had to pick their jaws up off the floor! Only a few agreed with me. I wasn't there to appease the teachers or the administrators. I was there to educate the kids and to tell them the truth...based upon sound science and factual unbiased data.

MAC
05-07-2008, 04:09 PM
Isnt it funny how people can hear one thing and instead of checking it out for themselves they almost imediately go out and spread it around like some high school rumor.

Deeman3
05-07-2008, 04:48 PM
Guys,

I know for instance, that my granddad riding me around in the back of a pick-up truck in rural Arkansas was child abuse. I could have been thrown out and mashed. I was further abused by being allowed to go into the woods each day with a shotgun or rifle and shoot animals that our family would eat, from the tender age of about 11 years old. I suffered the indignity of the second hand smoke from my Granma's cigarettes and ate more pork bar-be-que than most humans could stand all at blissful ignorance at what tofoo might even be. I shot slingshots and b-b gund without safety glasses and even climbed trees 40 to 80 feet high without a safety harness. My God, I prayed my watermealons would make it and used a healthy dose of DDT to help insure the prayers.

I played in ponds with watermocassins all around and, although bitten twice, survived all that abuse and neglect to become a grown man.

I know it's greqat to be safe but I sometimes wonder if all the caution my grandkids are exposed to doesn't cost them even more.

I think most sane people want a clean and safe earth to leave to them. At the rate we are going, famine, disease and overpopulatiuon will get the human race long before global warming and homemade slingshots do.

moblsv
05-07-2008, 05:00 PM
We already have such a thing, it's called the scientific process.

The "putting science on trial" philosophy is the problem, not a solution.

wolfdancer
05-07-2008, 05:25 PM
I didn't base my take on the subject on a coin flip....but on studies that I have read about, measurements that have been taken and compared, ....and the folks that can give you the real answers are the Eskimos that now have to kayak where they once walked, see things growing where once there was ice, and so on.
Ooops, I forgot...it's junk science when your data supports the theory....and the "real top" scientists have conclusive proof to refute the idea??? You'll have to excuse our ignorance...we didn't know the "real top" scientists discredited the data....damn liberal media......
I really don't care what the "other side" believes....there are also enough articles, studies? written/done to cast doubt on the subject...and then just one nation, us, can't do much to help anyway...and many believe we have already reached a point of no return.
What bothers me though,,,is people like ED, who thinks anybody that believes climate changes are occurring must be loony.....
I guess if GWB doesn't believe in it....then it can't be true

LWW
05-08-2008, 04:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm glad that you both can dismiss what is really happening in the Artic so easily...and lump it in with Y2K.
You both seem to think it's something the left dreamed up to get you to feel guilty about driving your SUV's, and in Ed's case, a Hummer. But since the right wing autocracy doesn't want to lose it's $$ arrangement with the sand people, especially since the Bush ranch will be moving to Dubai...they need to make this a political issue, and keep America using lots of oil. </div></div>
I'm glad that you can say "science" about anything associated with IPCC ... which completely cooked the books by leaving Antarctica out of it's math, knowing the moonbats wouldn't care or even read the data.

LWW

LWW
05-08-2008, 04:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see an open debate with scientists on both sides with their funding fully disclosed and political associations known.

Wolf and I could moderate it and firearms would be allowed. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I agree with Bill Oreilly, of course, a dirty planet is a bad thing and we should ake it cleaner, healthier and take more care of it. It is silly to reject either side out of hand on this issue. We will spend more on proving and disproving UFO's this year than we will in real conversation, minus the yelling, on really discussing this. Shame </div></div>
Don't you realize that debate can only be had between those who agree and those who agree even more.

That's how the IPCC works.

Get with it man.

LWW

LWW
05-08-2008, 04:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moblsv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We already have such a thing, it's called the scientific process.

The "putting science on trial" philosophy is the problem, not a solution. </div></div>
The scientific process when applied to the IPCC hypothesis propaganda proves it be junk science.

Does that matter to you?

LWW

LWW
05-08-2008, 04:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Watch the web for climate change truths (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/05/04/do0405.xml)

Before everyone starts bashing the article can anyone please bash the following bullets first so I know where you are coming from.
<ul> US National Climate Data Center, run by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Steve McIntyre Cryosphere Today (http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/) Nasa's Jet Propulsion Laboratory Anthony Watts[/list]


eg8r </div></div>
Since your data is not in line with the IPCC reports it obviously doesn't exist. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

LWW

eg8r
05-08-2008, 08:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Bill Oreilly, of course, a dirty planet is a bad thing and we should ake it cleaner, healthier and take more care of it. It is silly to reject either side out of hand on this issue.</div></div>While probably everyone agrees with this statement by Bill O'Reilly, I don't agree with your second statement. If millions upon millions are being spent to prove humans are the cause of Global warming then something should be done to stop that if it is not true. The money can be spent on better things like actually cleaning the planet.

Just to clarify again, no one was disagreeing that the actual temp of Earth was getting warmer...the issue was that we did not believe the main cause was humans which is what these "scientists" are out trying to prove.

eg8r

eg8r
05-08-2008, 08:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What bothers me though,,,is people like ED, who thinks anybody that believes climate changes are occurring must be loony.....</div></div>Maybe what is driving you looney is the fact that you never grasped what we have been talking about. I have never said anything like what you have just said. I have said from the beginning the GW myth that humans are the main cause is BS. Your queen sheep tells you different so stick your head in the sand again and see if gayole is still on course.

eg8r

LWW
05-08-2008, 08:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wolfdancer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What bothers me though,,,is people like ED, who thinks anybody that believes climate changes are occurring must be loony.....
I guess if GWB doesn't believe in it....then it can't be true </div></div>
What bothers me though,,,is people like you, who thinks anybody that believes climate changes occurring is something new must be loony.....
I guess if Saint Albert of Green Acres doesn't believe in it....then it can't be true /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

LWW

Gayle in MD
05-08-2008, 08:50 AM
What gets me is how in the world people with absolutely no concentrated study specifically on the subject of the human role in Global Warming have the audacity to pooh pooh independent scientific international studies, which other countries, such as England, for just one example, support.

You think they haven't noticed that Bush has censored our own scientist's reports, which we pay for, and is long connected to big oil?

They come out against anything that they percieve is a liberal cause, regardless of how many scientists, who are far more educated on this specific subject, then they are, are warning us about.

It amazes me how little personal expertise on a given scientific subject some people think they should have before they start spreading around their own personal interpretations and beliefs, and bashing scientists who are dedicated to saving the planet.

Do we have a single Scientific expert around here who's daily rhelm of study is the human contribution to global warming?

Scientist don't have agendas unless they are hired by companies that are going to pay them money fon their slanted reports, and as far as I can see, the scientific community which believes that human activity is contributing to global warming, is independent in nature, so why are there so many from the right who want to jump up and deny their findings? And why is it that anything they disagree with is automatically framed as a liberal issue? I mean, really, these types are truly suffering from liberal hatred, which is so pervasive that they are unable to acknowledge reality on a whole range of subjects.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

wolfdancer
05-08-2008, 09:01 AM
looney left...is your term ....and see if you can comprehend the term "contributing factor".....also since it's your party leadership in bed with the sand people...I don't want to put my head in the sand , i might find Cheney there.
If Gayle is the queen sheep for the left here...then your lww pal must be the judas goat for the right.

eg8r
05-08-2008, 09:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looney left...is your term</div></div>Did I say it was anyone else's? Too bad I was not the one to ping it, oh well, it still fits those on this board.

As far as lww, no one on this board goes to him for info. Quite contrary for those on the left that don't speak unless gayole the queen sheep has told them what to say and believe.

eg8r

wolfdancer
05-08-2008, 11:10 AM
you really are sinking to a new low...the same trite banalities that lww thinks are so clever.

wolfdancer
05-08-2008, 11:31 AM
what bothers me though is that you have nothing to say, and you keep saying it.
"You are the weakest link" !!!!!!!