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rukiddingme2
05-11-2008, 12:26 AM
This situation happened on Thursday.
An APA match was in progress when the opposing team called a coach. While coaching their player as to how to play the shot, the coach begins to eye the shot with the cue and while stroking the cue he hits the cue ball. The cue ball travels about 15 inches and the coach picks up the cue ball and puts it back to its original position. The coach is an SL5 and knows better.
We are the 1st place team and they are in 2nd with 1 week to go.
This is an obvious blatant foul. I called ball in hand and was immediately admonished for calling a "ticky-tac" foul. A big broohaha ensued and I was told that this is a "fun" league and that I should let it go. My response was that although this is a fun league we abide by the rules and if that was a problem maybe the should reconsider playing in an organized league.
BTW, this foul is not new to the league and has been called numerous times before without any argument.
What would you have done?

Rich R.
05-11-2008, 06:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rukiddingme2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would you have done? </div></div>
Like you, I would have called the foul.
Fun league or not, you have to play by the rules. That is a cue ball foul, which is not a minor infraction. I'm not really picky at calling all of the nit picking APA fouls, but that is a foul that should be called, IMHO.

J.D.
05-11-2008, 06:34 AM
This has beeen a ball-in-hand foul for the entire 14 years I've been in the APA. You do run into newer teams that are not as familiar with the rules as veteran players. In these instances, a call to your division rep is necessary. If they cannot be reached, a call to your local league operator is just fine. They can straighten out that kind of issue.

As far as the immediate situation, and how to quell a potential showdown-that is someting else. These kind of situations have to approached with care. Be firm and confident, but not cocky or insolent. Hopefully that helps.

At the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the league operators to teach their division reps to teach their team captains good etiquette, proper rule knowledge and good sportsmanship.

BigRigTom
05-11-2008, 10:06 AM
It is usually the one that commits the foul that considers it minor or "ticky-tacky".
A foul is a foul.
If there is no question a foul has been commited according to the rules then it should be called a foul. It doesn't matter if it is APA, BCA, WPA, VNEA, IPT or bar pool....a foul is still a foul.

Anyone can choose to overlook the foul or ignore it but it is still a foul and a good player will just accept the result others will attempt to minimize the importances of it.

eb_in_nc
05-12-2008, 07:29 AM
I've been in the APA now about 8 months. About 3 months ago, one of my teammates called a time out. I was watching the match from the side and thought I saw her opponent foul leaving our team player with ball in hand. Being new, I never thought to ask.

Anyhow, my captain was busy with another issue so I attended my teammates time out, again under the assumption that she had ball in hand. So I proceed to pickup the cue ball and immediately the opposing team called foul. I about died knowing that I did this to my teammate. I could not get over the fact that I made such a grave error, but fortunately she proceeded to win her match. I did not win mine that evening as I was so shaken by the experience.

But I have to agree with the crowd here. A foul should be called and no one should be dismissing it by calling it "ticky tacky" This is one of the reasons why we all play in a league, to add structure to the game playing. If we start to dismiss the rules when it suits our own individual needs, then it's time to quit the APA and start playing at the local bar.

I learned my painful lesson that evening, and I will never touch the cue ball without first asking "is it ball in hand?". At the same time, a lesson for all of us can be learned when stroking the cue during a time out and paying attention to the potential to make a foul.

Eric.
05-12-2008, 01:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rukiddingme2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would you have done? </div></div>
Like you, I would have called the foul.
Fun league or not, you have to play by the rules. That is a cue ball foul, which is not a minor infraction. I'm not really picky at calling all of the nit picking APA fouls, but that is a foul that should be called, IMHO. </div></div>

Agreed.

Unless the player had BIH, the CB is always live and a "coaching timeout" doesn't relieve the player of a "live " CB.


Eric &gt;foul

mikgordon
05-12-2008, 05:45 PM
I would have called a foul. In the league I play in we follow many of the APA rules but the league is not sanctioned by the APA. On of our league rules is that a coach can only talk about the shot. No grabbing a cue and aiming to figure the shot out for the player.

-Mike

Scott Lee
05-13-2008, 03:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rukiddingme2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This situation happened on Thursday.
An APA match was in progress when the opposing team called a coach. While coaching their player as to how to play the shot, the coach begins to eye the shot with the cue and while stroking the cue he hits the cue ball. The cue ball travels about 15 inches and the coach picks up the cue ball and puts it back to its original position. The coach is an SL5 and knows better.
We are the 1st place team and they are in 2nd with 1 week to go.
This is an obvious blatant foul. I called ball in hand and was immediately admonished for calling a "ticky-tac" foul. A big broohaha ensued and I was told that this is a "fun" league and that I should let it go. My response was that although this is a fun league we abide by the rules and if that was a problem maybe the should reconsider playing in an organized league.
BTW, this foul is not new to the league and has been called numerous times before without any argument.
What would you have done? </div></div>

rukiddingme...I would have done the exact same thing you did!

Scott Lee

rukiddingme2
05-13-2008, 08:42 AM
Thank you all for your responses. I was really admonished for making the call by my opponents and a member of another team that was playing on a different table.
If the player who was an SL2 had commited the foul I would probably have let it go but the coach who was an SL5 should have known better.
This foul has been called on me and others where the cue ball was barely touched. There was no argument...there was a lot of laughter by both the opponents and teammates alike...it is a dumb foul and you do feel dumb when committing it.
Last session I inadvertantly touched the cue ball with my pinky while giving a coach on two seperate occasions. My teammates wanted to ban me from giving coaches /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif...all in good fun of course.

ruk
PS...I only mentioned the fact that the coach had the cue in his hand to describe how the foul was committed. I did not consider the act of holding the cue to be a foul...only the act of striking the cue ball.

rukiddingme2
05-13-2008, 09:01 AM
rukiddingme...I would have done the exact same thing you did!

Scott Lee[/quote]

Hey Scott...how the heck are you? I have not seen nor heard from you in ages. Are you still in Michigan?
Are you still traveling the country giving lessons and doing exhibitions? Inquiring minds want to know...
Give me a call the next time you are in town and I'll buy you a beer...there is a great place in Andersonville that serves about 100 different kinds of Belgian beer. The Belgian style food aint bad either. The name of the place is The Hopleaf. For those tha are not familiar with Chicago it is located a little more than a block south of Foster Ave. on Clark Street.
ruk

bmccaslin
05-13-2008, 10:02 AM
Yeah I wouldn't even let that bother me; they know the rules and if they want to complain when they get called out then that is their problem. But you're right about the SL difference there - a 5 should know better.

I see the same thing all of the time with double-hit fouls. I won't call out an SL2 or a below-average SL3 (unless it's on the 8-ball of course /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ) on those because they might not know it's a foul. But there have been many times where I've called that on an SL5 or an SL6, and then have them go off on me for calling a silly foul (or worse, acting like it's not a foul).

As said before though, they should know better and be able to win games honestly.

BigRigTom
05-13-2008, 11:35 AM
As we were going into the pool hall last night I overheard one of our opponent's team tell the rest of his team..."We're playing the Maximillians so we have to be sure to play by the rules!"...
I just had to chuckle, our reputation has preceeded us. It make life a little easier when the other teams know you will expect them to follow the rules...

Deeman3
05-13-2008, 12:26 PM
Tom,

I guess the appropriate thing to ask the teams that don't like application of the rules is, "Exactly which rules should we observe tonight?"

SKennedy
05-15-2008, 02:59 PM
Call the foul! I have no doubt they would have called it on you.

KellyStick
05-16-2008, 11:12 AM
This a no brainer. Call the foul. Don't let someone elses incorrect beliefs affect you so much.

To put this in perspective you might ask which ones of the numerous other rules in APA we should also ignore? Maybe we think slop is too dishonorable so we should not allow it? By the way who decides which ones are ok and which are not? And by the way who declared this person to be the one that decides for everyone else? Ask them if you too get to later on in the match decide after the fact whether we should follow a rule your team breaks.

This person basically has no basis for their statement not to follow the rules. What I have found is that many people don't even know the rules because they have not read them ever. They often presume to preach the rules that they have never read. I keep a full sized rule book in my case. Not the little dinky one. I have no qualms about pulling it out. Not as a stick to beat people with but as the calm impersonal arbiter of controversy that we are all subject to. What is in the rule book is the rules and that's that. Whether I benefit or not is irrelevant. It's not personal. If people choose to make it personal that's their problem not mine and I don't give them any emotional energy. By accusing you of being petty THEY are making it personal. They are just trying to manipulate you by making you the bad guy when they were the ones that broke the rule. How does that make any sense.

My tone here might indicate that this stuff is one of my pet peeves. And it is.