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View Full Version : Q, What about all that Free Speech?



Deeman3
05-16-2008, 10:27 AM
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A Dutch political cartoonist was arrested this week on suspicion of insulting people because of their race or religion through his work, authorities said Friday.

The cartoonist, who works under the pseudonym Gregorius Nekschot, was arrested Tuesday on suspicion of violating hate speech laws and held overnight before being released, a spokeswoman for his publisher Uitgeverij Xtra said.

"He was arrested with a great show of force, by around 10 policemen," the spokeswoman said.

<span style="color: #FF9900"> This is the guy who did the cartoons of Allah and was under death threat by the Islamics. As distastful as it might be, people here can openly portray Christ in horrible cartoons without fear of being arrested. Is this the pressure by the growing Muslim population in Holland? </span>

wolfdancer
05-16-2008, 01:20 PM
10 policeman to arrest one cartoonist.....here we would have simply called in a SWAT team, then when he reached for his wallet....

Bobbyrx
05-23-2008, 11:51 AM
I have been waiting on the response to this one. It looks like they have outlawed posting on internet forums also /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Deeman3
05-23-2008, 12:03 PM
Yep, looks like the mulahs have him cornered or converted. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

LWW
05-24-2008, 06:57 AM
Another step as Eurabia slumps towards dhimmitude.

LWW

Bobbyrx
06-20-2008, 11:21 AM
How many cartoonists has Bush had arrested??

Qtec
06-20-2008, 09:35 PM
At the moment its the Christian Democrats [ conservatives] that are in power. This would never happen under a Labour Govt.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the pressure by the growing Muslim population in Holland? </div></div>

I'm pretty sure it was a Moslim org that made the complaint.

The Govt has received criticism from both the left and the Right for this attack on free speech and their over-reaction.

Q

mike60
06-29-2008, 02:05 PM
Remember that this is where Theo Van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim extremist
for making a movie.

Qtec
06-29-2008, 09:41 PM
So what?
Some whacko in a dress assassinates a celebrity?
How many POTUS have been assassinated or have had attempts on their life because of what?

What we have here now is idiotic cretins in power.

In the US there are cheers for the right to have a gun and on the same day some guy shoots 5 innocent people.

If you have a liberal press, why wasnm,t this 24/7 on the news?

Owning a gun makes you less safe, thats a fact.

Check it out.

Do some research and get back to me.


Q

pooltchr
06-30-2008, 04:25 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Owning a gun makes you less safe, thats a fact.

Q </div></div>

Absolutely! (NOT) When DC imposed their gun ban, the murder rate went through the roof! Criminals will own guns, whether it's legal or not. But if they know their intended victim might be armed, it tends to give some of them second thoughts.

Where did you come up with that particular "fact"?

Steve

MAC
06-30-2008, 06:25 AM
All it takes is a little common sense, ofcourse we are safer being able to own guns. If guns were illegal only criminals would have them. They also wouldnt have to worry about being shot when they mug someone. If guns become illegal it would turn into a field day for muggers, purse snatchers, etc.

Chopstick
06-30-2008, 07:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Owning a gun makes you less safe, thats a fact.

Q </div></div>

Bathtubs and house lamps kill more people than guns do. That's the real fact. Shall we ban bathing and light?

The concealed carry laws in Flarda have saved my life twice. The last time just over a week ago.

Qtec
06-30-2008, 09:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Handgun Ban Backgrounder
America's gun problem is a handgun problem. Handguns exact an inordinate toll on American lives. The vast majority of gun death and injury–in homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings–is carried out with easily concealable pistols and revolvers. The public health model as well as the traditional approaches employed in protecting consumer health and safety lead to one inevitable conclusion: handguns should be banned.




Overall Firearm-Related Deaths

Since 1962, more than one million Americans have died in firearm homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings. Handguns were used in more than 650,000 of these fatal shootings.7

In 1997—the most recent year available—there were 89 firearm deaths per day, or a firearm death every 16 minutes.8

In homes with guns, a member of the household is almost three times as likely to be the victim of a homicide compared to gun-free homes.

Self Defense

For every time a gun in the home is used in a self-defense homicide, a gun will be used in—

* 1.3 unintentional deaths

* 4.6 criminal homicides

* 37 suicides22

In 1997 there were 15,690 homicides.

* Of these, 8,503 were committed with handguns.

* Among handgun homicides, only 193 (2.3 percent) were classified as justifiable homicides by civilians.23

For every time in 1997 that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 43 people lost their lives in handgun homicides alone.24


</div></div>

link (http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/hgbanfs.htm)

Q

Bobbyrx
06-30-2008, 09:48 AM
Q: "The public health model as well as the traditional approaches employed in protecting consumer health and safety lead to one inevitable conclusion: handguns should be banned."

How does banning hand guns get rid of hand guns??

MAC
06-30-2008, 12:49 PM
What he is failing to realize is that it will not get rid of them. It will just make it illegal for law abiding citizens like us to own them. That way only criminals can have them and we can throw rocks and sticks at them to defend ourselves.

Yeah that sounds like a good plan....
Luckily for us we live in a country this would never take place.

SpiderMan
06-30-2008, 02:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what?
Owning a gun makes you less safe, thats a fact.

Check it out.

Do some research and get back to me.

Q </div></div>

That's one of the silliest statements I've seen recently, though I don't read the NPR list very often. I can't believe you have actually missed all the research that says otherwise. Actually, you seem like a pretty intelligent person, so I'd like to believe you really do know better.

But, I'll bite anyway. Tell me why owning a gun makes me less safe. Keep in mind that I've owned dozens of guns since about age 12, and none of them has attacked, or even threatened me. Actually, since owning a gun makes me less safe, I'm probably on the brink of death since I currently own 20 or 30 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Now if you'd said bicycles or motorcycles make me less safe I would wholeheartedly agree, even though I own these also. But guns? I don't think you have a very balanced perspective, and won't be able to acquire such in your culture.

If you ever visit the US, I'll take you shooting.

SpiderMan

sack316
06-30-2008, 04:14 PM
Q, nice stats but wouldn't that post using the VPC as a souce be the equivalent of posting something from the NRA, for example?

Sack

Chopstick
06-30-2008, 06:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Tell me why owning a gun makes me less safe. Keep in mind that I've owned dozens of guns since about age 12, and none of them has attacked, or even threatened me.

If you ever visit the US, I'll take you shooting.

SpiderMan </div></div>

LOL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Seriously though. If you get a chance to go shooting with Spiderman, go! I once saw him put five rounds from a Colt 45 in a circle the size of a lemon from 25 meters.

DickLeonard
07-01-2008, 11:34 AM
Bobbyrx I know he killed 152 convicted felons in Texas including a mentally retarded prisoner. How he could have assisted in his defense is beyond me. As George said he must have been Guilty he was found Guilty.####

Bobbyrx
07-01-2008, 12:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bobbyrx I know he killed 152 convicted felons <span style="color: #FF0000">(how about he didn't stop the legal execution of 152 CONVICTED MURDERERS)</span> in Texas including a mentally retarded prisoner <span style="color: #FF0000"> The victim, Beatrice Huling, was a twenty-nine-year-old restaurant manager who the autopsy determined suffered 85 stab wounds, seven of which were fatal, and was disemboweled.......
.</span> . How he could have assisted in his defense is beyond me. As George said he must have been Guilty he was found Guilty.#### </div></div>

LWW
07-01-2008, 05:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bobbyrx I know he killed 152 convicted felons in Texas including a mentally retarded prisoner. How he could have assisted in his defense is beyond me. As George said he must have been Guilty he was found Guilty.#### </div></div>
He killed nobody.

They were all found guilty by a jury.

They were all sentenced by a judge who oversaw the trial.

They all had exhausted the appeals system.

The only thing Bush did is not intervene.

LWW

Qtec
07-02-2008, 12:17 AM
At the bottom of the page it lists the sources.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) Cook, P. and Ludwig, J. Guns in America. Police Foundation, 1996.

2) Cook, P. and Ludwig, J. Guns in America. Police Foundation, 1996.

3) Cook, P. and Ludwig, J. Guns in America. Police Foundation, 1996.

4) Cook, P. and Ludwig, J. Guns in America. Police Foundation, 1996.

5)Zawitz, M. Guns Used in Crime: Firearms, Crime and Criminal Justice–Selected Findings. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1995.P&gt; 6) Cook, P. and Ludwig, J. Guns in America. Police Foundation, 1996.

7) Data sources: Fatal Firearm Injuries in the United States 1962-1994. Violence Surveillance Summary Series, No. 3, 1997. And Deaths: Final Data for 1995, Deaths: Final Data for 1996, Deaths: Final Data for 1997. National Vital Statistics Report.

8) Hoyert, DL, Kochanek, KD, et al. Deaths: Final Data for 1997. National Vital Statistics Report, 1999.

9) Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, et al. "Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home." NEJM 329:15 (1993):1084-1091.

10) FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1978-1997.

11) FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1990-1997.

12) Hoyert, DL, Kochanek, KD, et al. Deaths: Final Data for 1997. National Vital Statistics Report, 1999.

13) FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1990-1997.

14) FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1978-1997.

15) FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1978-1997.

16) Hoyert, DL, Kochanek, KD, et al. Deaths: Final Data for 1997. National Vital Statistics Report, 1999.

17) CDC National Center for Injury Prevention and Control Fact Sheet. Suicide in the United States, http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/suifacts.htm.

18) Wintemute, GJ, Teret, SP, et al. "The Choice of Weapons in Firearm Suicides." Am J Public Health. 78:7 (1988):824-826.

19) Violence Policy Center estimate taken from CDC fact sheet and the Wintemute, Teret, et al. study noted above.

20) CDC Wonder. wonder.cdc.gov

21) Kellermann, AL, Rivara FP, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM 327:7 (1992):467-472.

22) Kellermann, AL and Reay, DT. "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm-Related Deaths in the Home." NEJM 314:24 (1986):1557-1560.

23) FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1997.

24) FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1997.

25) Annest JL, Mercy JA, et al. "National Estimates of Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries: Beyond the Tip of the Iceberg." JAMA 273:22 (1995):1749-1754.

26) Kizer, KW, Vassar, MJ, et al. "Hospitalization Charges, Costs, and Income for Firearm-Related Injuries at a University Trauma Center." JAMA 273:22 (1995):1768-1773.

27) For example, see: National Gun Policy Survey of the National Opinion Research Center: Research Findings.

28) Pew Research Center, poll May 12-16, 1999; CBS News Poll, poll April 9, 1999; Newsweek Poll, poll April 21-22, 1999.

29) Sugarmann, J. and Rand, K. Cease Fire: A Comprehensive Strategy to Reduce Firearms Violence. Violence Policy Center, 1997.



</div></div> Q

Qtec
07-02-2008, 12:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what?
Owning a gun makes you less safe, thats a fact.

Check it out.

Do some research and get back to me.

Q </div></div>

That's one of the silliest statements I've seen recently, though I don't read the NPR list very often. I can't believe you have actually missed all the research that says otherwise. <span style="color: #FF0000">What research?</span>

But, I'll bite anyway. Tell me why owning a gun makes me less safe.
SpiderMan </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">States With Higher Levels Of Gun Ownership Have Higher Homicide Rates

ScienceDaily (Jan. 14, 2007) — Firearms are used to kill two out of every three homicide victims in America.. In the first nationally representative study to examine the relationship between survey measures of household firearm ownership and state level rates of homicide, researchers at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center found that homicide rates among children, and among women and men of all ages, are higher in states where more households have guns. The study appears in the February 2007 issue of Social Science and Medicine. </div></div> link (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070111181527.htm)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature

Lisa M. Hepburn and David HemenwayCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

Harvard School of Public Health, 677 Huntington Avenue, Boston, MA 02115, USA

Received 1 September 2002;
Revised 1 April 2003;
accepted 30 June 2003.
Available online 18 September 2003.





References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

Abstract

This article reviews the most commonly cited, representative, empirical studies in the peer-reviewed literature that directly investigate the association of gun availability and homicide victimization. Individual-level studies (n=4) are reviewed that investigate the risks and benefits of owning a personal or household firearm. The research suggests that households with firearms are at higher risk for homicide, and there is no net beneficial effect of firearm ownership. No longitudinal cohort study seems to have investigated the association between a gun in the home and homicide. Two groups of ecological studies are reviewed, those comparing multiple countries and those focused solely on the United States. Results from the cross-sectional international studies (n=7) typically show that in high-income countries with more firearms, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide. Time series (n=10) and cross-sectional studies (n=9) of U.S. cities, states, and regions and for the United States as a whole, generally find a statistically significant gun prevalence–homicide association. None of the studies prove causation, but the available evidence is consistent with the hypothesis that increased gun prevalence increases the homicide rate.
</div></div> link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VH7-49JPPFR-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2ecaca289eab085e424e90eac3616e7b)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">New Harvard University Study Shows Direct Link Between Gun Availability And Gun Death Among Children

Most Comprehensive Study Ever Conducted on Impact of Gun Availability Sends Simple Message: IT'S THE GUNS, STUPID

Louisiana Among Top Five in Nation in Gun Ownership—Louisiana Children More Likely to Die by Firearms Than Children in Low Gun Ownership States

WASHINGTON, DC—A new study from the Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) shows that children, five to 14 years old, are dying at dramatically higher rates in states with more guns. The article, "Firearm Availability and Unintentional Firearm Deaths, Suicide, and Homicide among 5-14 Year Olds," appears in the current February 2002 issue of The Journal of Trauma.

The study shows that children living in the five states with the highest levels of gun ownership were 16 times more likely to die from unintentional firearm injury, seven times more likely to die from firearm suicide, and three times more likely to die from firearm homicide than children in the five states with the lowest levels of gun ownership. Additionally, children in the top five gun ownership states were twice as likely to die from homicide and suicide overall as children in the five lowest gun ownership states. </div></div> link (http://www.vpc.org/press/0202study.htm)


Q

MAC
07-02-2008, 07:48 AM
Its not the guns, its the people someone has to pull the trigger they dont pull on their own. Its the parents responsibility to educate their kids on guns if they have them in the home. My Dad and Grandfather taught me about guns and how to shoot before I was even in school.
My nephew is the same way, he knows not to handle a firearm without an adult around (he doesnt have access anyway). Dumb ass people is something we will always have to deal with. You cant get rid of everything that may hurt someone because some people are stupid.

SpiderMan
07-02-2008, 09:25 AM
OK, I guess I'll have to spell it out.

Nothing you quoted supports your claim that owning a gun makes me less safe. You have collected a bunch of references which assert that "states/countries with no guns have no gun violence" and "states/countries" with more guns have more gun violence".

None of that can apply to an individual making an ownership decision - he lives where he lives. The question is whether adding a gun to my personal home makes me less or more safe, given whatever crime statistics that exist where I live.

The only way having a personal gun in my home would make me less safe would be if (1) I am likely to kill myself, and having the gun allows me to do so when I otherwise could not find a way, or (2) having the gun in my home somehow makes it more likely that a criminal will invade my home and kill me.

In Texas, we don't consider all of our "gun death" statistics to be undesirable. For example, homeowners pretty much enjoy open season on burglars. Though burglar deaths could obviously be reduced by having less homeowners with guns, we choose to keep the status quo. Helps thin the herd.

SpiderMan

Qtec
07-02-2008, 11:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, I guess I'll have to spell it out.

Nothing you quoted supports your claim that owning a gun makes me less safe. You have collected a bunch of references which assert that "states/countries with no guns have no gun violence" and "states/countries" with more guns have more gun violence".

None of that can apply to an individual making an ownership decision - he lives where he lives.
</div></div>

Yes I agree but you make laws for the benefit of all, not one persons personal circumstances.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ST. PETERSBURG - For the second time in 11 days, a bystander was killed in the Harbordale neighborhood in Midtown.

Tracey Walker, a 40-year-old single mother of four, was in the living room of her home at 2635 Sixth St. S on Wednesday night. Her son Ahmad, 20, was hanging out in front with a couple of friends around 11:45 p.m. when someone walked up and began firing with a handgun, police said.

The gunman missed Ahmad and his buddies. But one bullet flew into the living room and hit Walker in the head.

"It's senseless," said Adam Butler, 34, Walker's cousin. "It's sad when a woman can't be at peace in her home."

The shooting comes after the March 24 death of 15-year-old Deandre "Squirrel" Brown, who was shot while talking to friends in the 2200 block of Highland Street S, just four blocks from Walker's home.

Police arrested two young men in connection with Brown's killing, saying the youths were out for revenge after a party at Wildwood Recreation Center disintegrated into fights. Brown didn't go to that party, though some of his friends did. </div></div>

Would owning a handgun have saved these people?

The idea that owning a handgun makes you safer is promoted by the NRA, ie the gun industry.
The statistics show that this is an illusion. If everyone owned and carried a handgun the number of homicides would increase- thats a fact shown by all the studies. You would be much more likely being killed by a stray bullet than shooting a burglar in self defence.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The CDF report, which used data compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics, revealed that in 1993, American youths between the ages of 10 and 19 years old died every 92 minutes from gunshot wounds. The 5,751 children under the age of 20 years old who died from gunshot wounds in 1993 represent the highest yearly total since statistics on children's gun deaths have been collected by the Center.



An analysis of the 5,751 deaths showed that 3,661 were homicides; 1,460 were suicides; 526 were accidents; and 104 were unknown causes.

In the Black community, the statistics are even more disturbing, according to the CDF's sister organization, the Black Community Crusade for Children (BCCC). The BCCC report revealed that guns were the leading cause of death among Black males between the ages of 15 and 19 years old. These statistics make young Black men five times as likely as young White men in the same age group to be the victims of gun violence and 10 times as likely to be killed with a gun. </div></div>


This is only about a ban on handguns. eg, its difficult to run from the scene of the crime with an AK-47 stuffed down you trouser leg.

I understand what you are saying and if I was living in America and felt the need to buy a gun ,I probably would.
Would it be the right thing to do tho?
The statistics show that I would be contributing to the problem.

Another approach might be to ban all handguns. It can be done.



More guns makes you safer.
link (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/01/combatstyle_rif.html)


guy pulls gun (http://www.menspulse.com/mens-magazine/657/guy-pulls-gun-at-gas-station.html)

This is what happens when any idiot can get a gun. [ violent content]

Q

SpiderMan
07-02-2008, 11:55 AM
We all realize that the presence of a gun is a prerequisite for someone to get shot.

You've avoided the question again - given whatever the crime statistics may be where I live, regardless of whether or not this is due to "too many guns on the street", why would adding a gun to my home make me less safe that I otherwise would have been?

SpiderMan

Qtec
07-02-2008, 12:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> why would adding a gun to my home make me less safe that I otherwise would have been?

SpiderMan</div></div>

....because its not just you. You are advocating that all America arm itself with handguns. Do you seriously think this will make you more safe? Your family? Your kids? Your Grandmother?
Imagine every citizen carrying a handgun! Would this reduce crime?


Remember the Wild West? At the time the Govt, even W Earp , thought it necessary to restrict handguns.



Q

sack316
07-02-2008, 12:34 PM
I don't think anybody is advocating that ALL America arm themselves. What we argue for is the right to own a gun if you so choose, for a myriad of reasons. Believe it or not, I have never owned a gun in my life. Don't really care too. But I think that we should have the right to have one if we so choose... legally.

Does anybody watch the show 30 Days? Was a good episode on last night in which a female who was an active opponent of guns stayed with a gun enthusiast and his son.

Sack

SpiderMan
07-02-2008, 01:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> why would adding a gun to my home make me less safe that I otherwise would have been?

SpiderMan</div></div>

....because its not just you. You are advocating that all America arm itself with handguns. Do you seriously think this will make you more safe? Your family? Your kids? Your Grandmother?
Imagine every citizen carrying a handgun! Would this reduce crime?

Remember the Wild West? At the time the Govt, even W Earp , thought it necessary to restrict handguns.

Q
</div></div>

I'm struggling to keep you focused on the topic, and you are dodging the question by responding as if this were a general "should there be guns" discussion.

Better go back and re-read what you originally said, and my response.

SpiderMan

mike60
07-02-2008, 11:43 PM
The public are mostly law abiding and trust worthy. How do you protect yourself and your family from the scum that live among us? Call 911? And wait while you're in
peril? No way. Arm yourself and learn to defend yourself. No vigilante bullshit, no
waving a piece to make a threat. Just have if it you need it. Screw Wyatt Earp he shot most of his victims in the back.


mike60 armed&vigilant

Qtec
07-03-2008, 04:12 AM
I'm not being evasive. In my original post it quite clearly states that,

"In homes with guns, a member of the household is almost three times as likely to be the victim of a homicide compared to gun-free homes."

By insisting their right to own a handgun, law abiding citizens are feeding the criminals with weapons, because its just a fact that every year 1,000s of these guns are stolen and end up being used in crime.

The NRA [ the gun industry ] opposes any kind of restriction on weapons.
They want criminals to have guns.
Then they can tell you that you need a buy a gun to protect yourself. More people buy guns, more guns are stolen ensuring a never ending supply of weapons to criminals.
The NRA says "buy another gun. Buy a bigger gun...etc etc".
Thats their solution, more guns.

Will this will make Americans safer!!

Q

MAC
07-03-2008, 08:23 AM
Its not really correct to keep calling the NRA the "gun industry". They more or less fight for our rights to own guns head to head against people like you that have their head up there ass, and think we shouldnt even be allowed to have freakin sling shot in our home if we choose to because someone may lose an eye.

SpiderMan
07-03-2008, 10:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Its not really correct to keep calling the NRA the "gun industry". They more or less fight for our rights to own guns head to head against people like you that have their head up there ass, and think we shouldnt even be allowed to have freakin sling shot in our home if we choose to because someone may lose an eye. </div></div>

You think you are joking, but isn't it now illegal to carry a slingshot around in Australia?

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
07-03-2008, 10:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chopstick</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Tell me why owning a gun makes me less safe. Keep in mind that I've owned dozens of guns since about age 12, and none of them has attacked, or even threatened me.

If you ever visit the US, I'll take you shooting.

SpiderMan </div></div>

LOL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Seriously though. If you get a chance to go shooting with Spiderman, go! I once saw him put five rounds from a Colt 45 in a circle the size of a lemon from 25 meters.
</div></div>

If it was a .45, it was probably my Gold Cup. That means you must not have stuck around long enough to see any real shooting, or else I was really off that day. That gun can group!

I doubt QT will be taking me up on the offer. By his own logic, the world would be a safer place if I kept the gun out of his hands. And part of me says he's right, this time /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan

MAC
07-03-2008, 02:16 PM
I dont doubt it one bit. Since you brought up Australia that would be good research for Q maybe he should look at what happened to crime rates there when they took the guns away from civilians. I would bet crime doubled if not tripled.

pooltchr
07-03-2008, 07:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont doubt it one bit. Since you brought up Australia that would be good research for Q maybe he should look at what happened to crime rates there when they took the guns away from civilians. I would bet crime doubled if not tripled. </div></div>

They did it in Washington DC and look what happened!
Steve

Qtec
07-04-2008, 08:18 AM
In my defense, I have given you sources and solid facts to back up my viewpoint. You have yet to offer anything that proves owning a gun makes you safer despit the fact that the statistics show more guns more gun violence.
Owning or carrying a gun might make you FEEL safer but but the records show otherwise.

Half of all homicides are the result of handguns. Why not get rid of them? You will still have your shotgun to protect your home.

Q

Chopstick
07-04-2008, 12:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my defense, I have given you sources and solid facts to back up my viewpoint. You have yet to offer anything that proves owning a gun makes you safer despit the fact that the statistics show more guns more gun violence.
Owning or carrying a gun might make you FEEL safer but but the records show otherwise.

Q </div></div>

You haven't offered any facts at all. A bunch of references to "research suggests", "studies indicate", or "statistics show" by obscure individuals does not constitute facts.

Let's take a look at the public record.

In fact, let's go to the same source your "experts" cited and print the part they left out.

* Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times.

* In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim."

* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.

The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states.

Guns are used for self-defense three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.

<span style="color: #3366FF">You mentioned St. Petersburg, FL. I used to live there. I still live in Central Florida so let's talk about that. I don't need a website to tell me what to think about it. I can go downtown and read all about it in the the public record for myself.</span>

Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence."

When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them.

Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:

In Florida the overall homicide rate dropped 37%. In the United States it dropped 0.4%.
In Florida the firearms homicide rate dropped 37%. In the United States it increased 15%.
In Florida, the handgun homicide rate dropped 41%. In the United States it increased 24%.

221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms.

No permit holder has ever harmed a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life.

mike60
07-04-2008, 02:20 PM
"No permit holder has ever harmed a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life"

This makes a great deal of sense in favor of honest citizens having the right to bear
arms in a legal manner. I've said it before we have nothing to fear from law abiding
citizens.

mike60

Bambu
07-06-2008, 09:22 AM
Wow, that was a great post. Looking at the results of what happens when we let people carry, tells the whole story.

Qtec
07-06-2008, 07:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"No permit holder has ever harmed a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life"

This makes a great deal of sense in favor of honest citizens having the right to bear
arms in a legal manner. I've said it before we have nothing to fear from law abiding
citizens.

mike60 </div></div>

Really? Guess you must have missed this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man accused in deputy's death is arrested, hospitalized

Associated Press

DUBLIN - A Vietnam veteran accused of killing a Laurens County deputy was shouting and acting irrationally moments before gunning down the officer, Sheriff Kenny Webb said Tuesday after viewing a videotape of the traffic stop that led to the shooting.
Andrew Howard Brannan, 49, of McDonough was arrested Tuesday morning after police found him hiding in a sleeping bag beneath a camouflage tarp, about 100 yards from the Laurens County house where police had tracked him after the Monday shooting.
Brannan, who had no previous criminal record, was charged with murder in the death of Deputy Kyle Dinkheller. He was taken to a hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound in the stomach, apparently inflicted by Dinkheller.
Dinkheller, 22, was shot with a rifle about 5:30 p.m. Monday after he stopped a man who was speeding in a white truck.
Brannan's "behavior was real bizarre," Webb said. "He charged the deputy and was yelling, 'Shoot me. Shoot me.'
"I don't understand what set him off, why he was acting the way he did. I just don't know. I wish I did." </div></div>

Here is the video of the shooting- its not for the faint hearted.

NSFW (http://www.filecabi.net/video/officervsguy.html)

Q

mike60
07-06-2008, 08:24 PM
Q, I watched the video. It is tragic and very disturbing. I my opinion the Deputy should have shot this fool as soon as the perp showed the weapon. Unfortunately the Deputy wasn't a good enough marksman. There were too many exchanges of fire.
I am very saddened by this video but it shows a lack of training by the Deputy.
I served as an MP in the US Army and any of us would have killed the perp as soon as the weapon was shown. The perp ignored a lawful order and produced a lethal weapon and brandished it. Game over dead perp.
There is no permit holder anything involved in this horrible crime. Having a rifle may be legal without a permit, but that isn't germane here. I'm sorry for the Deputy but his death has nothing to do with this thread. My post states we have nothing to fear from law abiding citizens. This perp is not any way law abiding.
mike60

Qtec
07-06-2008, 08:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You haven't offered any facts at all. </div></div>

Yes I have. See my post facts (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=277479&#Post277479)


Where are your links? I linked my statistics to real facts and peer reviewed studies.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." </div></div>

1982..........????????????

There are now 16 yr old kids running around carrying weapons. Where did they get them?

More guns are not the answer.

Q

mike60
07-06-2008, 08:37 PM
Q, The fact is there are millions of guns in the USA. That is a fact. While i think you have good intentions you have no way to enforce or reduce the number available to anyone. Honest or criminal. So back up and see the reality. The old saying is true:
"If guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns".
We are able to defend ourselves when we arm ourselves and practice gun control.
Another old saying:
"Gun control is easy, use two hands" Like it or not we need to be able to defend our families and our country. Thank you for your ideas but it is 300 years after the fact.
mike60

Qtec
07-06-2008, 08:55 PM
I think its relevant. He was a Vet and had no criminal record ,so he should have been entitled to own weapons. Most probably he was a NRA card holder.

I agree, if I was the cop and someone I stopped put his hands on a gun I would shoot him. [The tragic background to the shooting was that the officer had been reprimanded [the week before] for being too 'physical'. I think thats what got him killed- he was afraid of over-reacting and possibly losing his job.]

My only point was to show that that statement that 'law abiding citizens 'don't shoot cops is a fantasy and misleading. Maybe most of them don't shoot cops but they shoot other people! Doesn't that count?


Q

Qtec
07-06-2008, 09:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While i think you have good intentions you have no way to enforce or reduce the number available to anyone. </div></div>

Where there is a will , there is a way.

1. Stop selling handguns in the USA.
2. Amnesty. All guns to be handed in and destroyed- legal owners will be compensated.
3.etc etc etc

This is the major problem because the gun industry wants to sell guns! The NRA is not interested in your safety, they just want more guns. More guns mean the criminals steal more guns and on and on. Its a big con.
There are 220 million guns in the USA and the USA has the highest homicide rate in the civilized world and no-one can see the connection?
You need to start looking at a long term solution. Of course handguns will not disappear overnight.

I regularly walk my dog at 3 in the morning. When I'm working, my girlfriend also walks the dog late at night. Neither of us fear getting shot.

I might not be as relaxed if I knew all my neighbors were armed to the teeth. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif





Q

mike60
07-06-2008, 09:41 PM
Welcome to the real world. Our country is different.

mike60

Deeman3
07-07-2008, 06:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

Where there is a will , there is a way.

1. Stop selling handguns in the USA.
2. Amnesty. All guns to be handed in and destroyed- legal owners will be compensated.
3.etc etc etc

<span style="color: #CC0000">The vast majority of criminals in this country would just love for you to make our rules. </span>

I might not be as relaxed if I knew all my neighbors were armed to the teeth. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Of course, the criminals in my area are the ones that are nervous as here, we have permits to carry and do not, of course, face the mass of violence that persons in non carry urban areas now deal with. </span>





Q [/quote]

Qtec
07-07-2008, 09:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The vast majority of criminals in this country would just love for you to make our rules. </div></div>

At the moment, criminals seem to have no problem aquiring a gun, even kids.
I am sure they like the gun control laws just the way they are. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Also, if most of the crime is drug related, why not legalize drugs- ie, let the Govt sell them - and a huge motivation for crime [ profit] disappears. ?
That would really make you safer.

Q

Deeman3
07-07-2008, 10:24 AM
I agree on the changes in the drug laws as I have often stated. The problem is, of course, criminals have no problem aquiring guns despite some very tough gun laws in some areas. Of course, drug viloence does not make me any less afe as I don't go out and buy drugs.

Gun laws that are aimed at keeping law abiding citizens from getting guns have never hurt criminal's abilities to get them.

Now, an out-and-out ban might work, if the criminals all turned their's in. However, any law that would leave them in criminal and police hands just would not work in this country.

Now if you figure a way to get them all, let us know. I know Hitler had some success with you guys about 70 years ago. I think private guns were among the first things he confiscated.

MAC
07-07-2008, 10:28 AM
You are correct violent crime probably would go down if drugs were legal. What about non-violent crime though? This country was built with firearms, America has had an ongoing love affair with them forever. In the words of the late Charlton Heston
"You can take my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands".
I as well as many other Americans feel this way. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you were not brought up around firearms and your Father didnt take you hunting or fishing as a child.

SpiderMan
07-07-2008, 10:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my defense, I have given you sources and solid facts to back up my viewpoint. You have yet to offer anything that proves owning a gun makes you safer despit the fact that the statistics show more guns more gun violence.
Owning or carrying a gun might make you FEEL safer but but the records show otherwise.

Half of all homicides are the result of handguns. Why not get rid of them? You will still have your shotgun to protect your home.

Q </div></div>

I always wondered what it would feel like, pulling teeth from a chicken /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

You provided absolutely zero sources, and no facts, to suggest that I am less safe by virtue of having a gun in my home. How am I less safe? Will my gun attack me? Will I shoot myself in my sleep? Will my gun somehow lure other guns, perhaps with villian owners, to my home?

"In your defense", you provided material linking guns to shooting deaths. So we should obviously conclude that if all the guns disappeared, there would be no shooting deaths. But that's a naive position - the guns are not going to disappear, regardless of whether I choose to have one.

I am more likely to survive any attack if I am more powerful than my adversary, whether by physique, skills, or arms. The best case (for my safety) would be if you can make all the guns go away, but let me keep mine. I would be least safe if all the other guns in the world stayed and mine went away. It's all about disparity of force, and I want that as much on my side as possible.

BTW, not all shooting deaths are "bad", and I wouldn't want them to end. Anti-gun "studies" seldom mention that, in many cases, defensive shootings are lumped statistically with premeditated murders. You asked why not get rid of my handguns, because handguns result in half of shooting deaths? Well, here's my response - if my handgun results in a shooting death, it will probably be one of those "good" ones. Who knows, over a period of the next twenty years, the net result may even be a dozen FEWER shooting deaths because of the terminated original perpetrator.

Here's a case from my personal history. Seven years ago, I stopped to refuel my truck when returning from a pool tournament in southeast Dallas. I was unarmed at the time, because my unenlightened employer has a zero-tolerance policy for guns at work, even if left in vehicles in the parking lot. I had not gone home to pick up my gun after work because I would have been late to the pool tournament. I foolishly chose to be a good Samaritan and help a man jump-start his car, and he put a revolver in my ribs and robbed me of $60 at gunpoint. Even being armed, I would not have resisted immediately, because I would have no doubt been shot. However, as he drove away, I had a perfect opportunity to ram his car with my truck, but did not do so because I could not be sure he would be disabled or that I would not be shot. Instead, I followed him at a distance while talking to the police on my cell phone. He lost me in a crowded parking lot, but I had already relayed a partial tag number and a vehicle description. When the police arrived, we searched the area and found the vehicle abandoned. I was told that the car had been taken from another victim the night before, in an armed carjacking. So why would I care to attack/stop/harm/kill someone who robbed me of $60? Well, before he was eventually caught, this same criminal committed 13 more armed robberies. Any or all of those victims could have been killed, and all of the incidents would have been prevented if the perpetrator had been stopped or killed during my robbery. In one incident, he rode in the victim's car, holding a gun to the head of a baby, while forcing the mother to drive to an ATM and withdraw money. When he was finally caught, I did my civic duty and testified in court, but obviously I would have performed a greater service had I been properly armed that day. I would have rammed his car, perhaps been involved in a shooting (but likely not), and 13 crimes (all having potentially-fatal consequences) would have been prevented.

So here's the point you are missing (perhaps deliberately, in order to strengthen your case?) - I can't disarm the lawless rabble, but I can arm myself. Thankfully, I can do this legally, because the lawless rabble are, well, lawless anyway. The only element of this "safety" equation under my direct control is my own level of preparedness. So I choose to prepare. I don't insist anyone else follow my example, though I obviously believe they should and I do help all my friends acquire weapons and training if they wish to do so. I am safer for having prepared, and safer yet when I am accompanied by armed and trained companions.

Do my gun purchases add to the pool of earthly destructive devices? Of course they do - but they show up on the good side of the equation, tipping the overall disparity of force more in my own favor.

I realize that some people, such as you, probably believe that self-protection is best left to those who govern you. Should you ever need this protection, I hope it is standing nearby, ready to serve, and not arriving an hour later to investigate your robbery, maiming, or demise.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
07-07-2008, 10:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now if you figure a way to get them all, let us know. I know Hitler had some success with you guys about 70 years ago. I think private guns were among the first things he confiscated. </div></div>

Now that's kicking a guy in the privates. I doubt any Europeans like to remember that far back /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Did you ever see "Red Dawn"? Occupied is one thing this country will never be. We'd have to be blown off the face of the earth.

SpiderMan

Deeman3
07-07-2008, 12:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan [/quote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now that's kicking a guy in the privates. I doubt any Europeans like to remember that far back /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Did you ever see "Red Dawn"? Occupied is one thing this country will never be. We'd have to be blown off the face of the earth.

SpiderMan </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">Yes, I liked Red Dawn. Like you say, it is not easy to be taken over if your citizens have weapons.

Like I have often said, I don't know why pacifists don't have signs in their front yards, "No, guns kept here!"

Well, yes I do. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

You may remember my run in with a robber in Greenville S.C. a few years ago where at a rest stop a guy tried to sneak up on me but I saw him in the Vette mirror, just as he swung his Saturday Night Special into my window, I swung my Colt .45 Auto into his face, accidently breaking his front teeth. I took his gun (.22 cal. worthless crap) and his wallet which I later gave to a cop who worked part time with me. The funny thing was he had more money in his wallet than I did! I guess the Corvette fooled him!

South Carolina, terrinble bar-be-que and even worse robbers!

I will be home tomorrow night and will watch the DVD's. Tori did fine on the 1,500 mile bike ride but we only passed through Memphis on Saturday afternoon but damn near got run over a few times on 78 (Lamar) going through town...I did not even take time to get a sandwich!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif </span>

SpiderMan
07-07-2008, 12:37 PM
Cop? He probably kept the wallet and sold the gun /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

What is Tori riding?

I would've thought SC would have good BBQ.

I found another great BBQ sandwich joint in Memphis. Actually, it's across the river in West Memphis. Can't remember the name, but know how to find it. I'll write down the name and address details next time I go through there (probably October, our next biker reunion).

SpiderMan

mike60
07-07-2008, 12:42 PM
This is what i mean when i say we have nothing ti fear from law abiding people:

You may remember my run in with a robber in Greenville S.C. a few years ago where at a rest stop a guy tried to sneak up on me but I saw him in the Vette mirror, just as he swung his Saturday Night Special into my window, I swung my Colt .45 Auto into his face, accidently breaking his front teeth. I took his gun (.22 cal. worthless crap) and his wallet which I later gave to a cop who worked part time with me. The funny thing was he had more money in his wallet than I did! I guess the Corvette fooled him! Deeman.

Make the scumbags fear the people.
mike60

sack316
07-07-2008, 01:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Did you ever see "Red Dawn"? Occupied is one thing this country will never be. We'd have to be blown off the face of the earth.

SpiderMan </div></div>

Wolverines!

Sack

Deeman3
07-07-2008, 01:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cop? He probably kept the wallet and sold the gun /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

<span style="color: #FF0000">You may be right, he never mentioned it after that! </span>

What is Tori riding? <span style="color: #FF0000"> 650 Bergman</span>

I would've thought SC would have good BBQ.

<span style="color: #FF0000">I once dropped some on the ground and a dog would not eat it. True Story! </span>

I found another great BBQ sandwich joint in Memphis. Actually, it's across the river in West Memphis. Can't remember the name, but know how to find it. I'll write down the name and address details next time I go through there (probably October, our next biker reunion).

<span style="color: #FF0000">Maybe you could invite me as a former local??? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </span>

SpiderMan </div></div>

eg8r
07-07-2008, 01:36 PM
Getting Q to answer a specific question that is in reference to his own stupid statements is quite impossible as you can see. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

Chopstick
07-07-2008, 01:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"No permit holder has ever harmed a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life"</div></div>

Really? Guess you must have missed this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man accused in deputy's death is arrested, hospitalized

Associated Press

DUBLIN - A Vietnam veteran accused of killing a Laurens County deputy was shouting and acting irrationally moments before gunning down the officer, Sheriff Kenny Webb said Tuesday after viewing a videotape of the traffic stop that led to the shooting.
Andrew Howard Brannan, 49, of McDonough was arrested Tuesday morning after police found him hiding in a sleeping bag beneath a camouflage tarp, about 100 yards from the Laurens County house where police had tracked him after the Monday shooting.
Brannan, who had no previous criminal record, was charged with murder in the death of Deputy Kyle Dinkheller. He was taken to a hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound in the stomach, apparently inflicted by Dinkheller.
Dinkheller, 22, was shot with a rifle about 5:30 p.m. Monday after he stopped a man who was speeding in a white truck.
Brannan's "behavior was real bizarre," Webb said. "He charged the deputy and was yelling, 'Shoot me. Shoot me.'
"I don't understand what set him off, why he was acting the way he did. I just don't know. I wish I did." </div></div>

Here is the video of the shooting- its not for the faint hearted.

NSFW (http://www.filecabi.net/video/officervsguy.html)

Q </div></div>

First of all, I must apologize to Spiderman, who took umbrage at my posting that he put five shots into a circle the size of a lemon. If the circle in not so small that all five holes are touching, he calls it unsatisfactory. That's what I call Gun Control. Spiderman left out one thing about his robber's MO. The trigger was wired down. He held the hammer back with his thumb. He rode in that car with that gun pointed at a babies head!

So, you post this obscenity as a rebuttal of my post hoping that the emotional shock value will make people overlook your ridiculous assertion that the perpetrator had a carry license for an AK47. How do you think things would have turned out if Deeman or Spiderman was on the scene?

Which brings me to another point. You state that all guns used by criminals are stolen from honest citizens that purchased them legally. There are no AK47 factories here and importing them is illegal. So, where did it come from? I'll give you a clue. There are no cocaine fields here either.

You asked for a link. Here's one for you. This woman had her mother and father gunned down right in front of her because some liberal pinhead changed the carry laws.

Suzanna Huff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhyuJzjOcQE)

So, you are asking me how I feel sitting at the barbaque restaurant sitting across from Spiderman knowing that he has a Glock 40 in his lap and that any psycho that bursts through the front door with an assault rifle is going to get five in the forehead (with all the holes touching) Well, I feel just fine about that. I'd feel even better if Deeman was there with us.

I had an experience recently. I was escorting a young woman downtown to a show.(Note I did not say lady) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif This big black guy comes up along side of me from behind. I was already aware of his approach. I spotted him crossing the street some distance away when he saw us. He said "Contrary to popular belief, all black guys do not carry guns." Looking straight ahead and continuing to walk I replied "Yeah, I know. Old white guys do." Our new friend immediately disappeared.

I will spare you the extremely graphic post of the woman stabbed 71 times in broad daylight in downtown Rotterdam while two dutchboys attempted to prissy kick him off her while another videotaped it. The attacker got all of four years for that.

mike60
07-07-2008, 01:52 PM
Chopstick, Thanks.

mike60

Deeman3
07-07-2008, 02:52 PM
Chopstick,

I remember the Suzanna Huff story well. There are, like you have said, many cases where citizens defend themsleves and others but these are largely ignored by the liberal press.

I ever wonder if an anti-gun nut has ever changed his mind on conceiled carry as a prepetrator pulled the trigger on him/her? 'course, it too late then. Every time we make a highly emotional termination, there is a very small chance that that person will come back and do us harm and a bunch of idiots out there who have marital issues they often decide to take to the workplace. At least we carriers have a change at preventing the wholesale killing. Without protection we might as well throw paper clips at them.

NOTE: Is there a reason people avoid me, you and Spiderman when we sit together? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

mike60
07-07-2008, 08:49 PM
Chopstick, The Press isn't liberal. Its profit driven. Any story will be hyped without
concern for the truth. Left=right no matter. It's just the way things are. When people defend themselves it makes the cops look bad. Not there in time, whatever.
911 is a joke. What is important is to remember that if you shoot a perp, make sure to kill them. I know this is tough but dead people don't seek revenge. If someone needs to be shot then they should die. As far as people avoiding you getting together
with Deeman and Spiderman, deoderant might help. Just kidding.
mike666

Deeman3
07-08-2008, 07:19 AM
Mike,

I agree that profits are important to the owners of the press but the reporters and minions do have a political bent mostly left. That's o.k. as the market rejects most of the left press.

I agree with not wounding people. If you did that, you probably did not need to shoo them in the first place. Of course, most seriouly underestimate the finality and life impact of shooting a human being, albeit in war or in civil life.

SpiderMan
07-08-2008, 09:38 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would've thought SC would have good BBQ.

<span style="color: #FF0000">I once dropped some on the ground and a dog would not eat it. True Story! </span> </div></div> </div></div>

Wow, and I thought Texas had terrible BBQ. Here, they think sliced beef with sauce on it is BBQ. There should be a law saying you can't call it BBQ if it doesn't involve a chicken or a pig. At least we have some hellacious taco stands, if you know where to look /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found another great BBQ sandwich joint in Memphis. Actually, it's across the river in West Memphis. Can't remember the name, but know how to find it. I'll write down the name and address details next time I go through there (probably October, our next biker reunion).

<span style="color: #FF0000">Maybe you could invite me as a former local??? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </span> </div></div> </div></div>

That's a definite possibility. We normally do it only every five years or so, but one of the host's wives has a 50th birthday coming up in October. She liked last year's party so much that we're thinking about getting at least part of the old gang back together for her event. It will be a smaller deal, though, because everyone traveled for the biggie last year. I'll keep checking on what the plans really are.

BTW, the BBQ at last year's reunion was super. They fired up the smoker a day in advance, and by the following night it was as if Henry Loeb had come back from the dead to watch over the preparations. You'll see the cooker on the video I sent - that guy had an industrial-sized setup. A few of us got together on Friday to set up for the party, and grilled steaks to test out the equipment, then started the BBQ meat so that it would be ready on Saturday.

SpiderMan

Deeman3
07-08-2008, 09:52 AM
I remember Henry Loeb standing in my yard in Forrest City in about 1981. He was there for a political cook out at my house for a local politician. We were discussing his being mayor during the really rough parts of Memphis's history and he told me, "Well, I always figured if they didn't hang Crump, they wouldn't hang me!" He said is was his brother who knew about the bar-be-que, he just stuck to handling the "damn votas!" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

He was a big man and had the biggest and strongest grip I have ever felt.

They "boil" the SC bar-be-que!! Yes, boil it then coat it with an orangish sauce. It's pork, I think, but it makes Texas look like they know how to cook!

I do miss those Texas Mexican places....

SpiderMan
07-08-2008, 10:33 AM
What I remember about Loeb is the AM radio ads from the 60s - if you spill sauce on your shirt at Loeb's BBQ, we'll clean it free at Loeb's Laundry.

All I really recall about Crump is driving past the old stadium. Before my time, I guess.

I did meet John Jay Hooker and Al Gore Jr, though. Mom was always a political activist, and worked in both of those skunks' campaigns. She was also an elected delegate to the 1972 DNC. My dad was embarassed that she was a Democrat, but in the interest of family harmony he let her fill our little yard with signs every now and then. I guess she got caught up in the '60s liberalism.

Later, she became much more conservative, after she no longer worked for a labor union boss. She lost that job because she testifed to the feds about something or other that I never understood as a kid, but I think maybe it had something to do with the Firestone retirement fund.

Newly enlightened, she even helped Prince Mongo out a couple of times. I have a signed "Mongo for Mayor" campaign poster she got him to do for me, it's pretty funny. I think Chopstick has seen it. She's now an officer in a Republican women's group in Oxford, and will be working the McCain/Osama debate at Ole Miss this fall. She's 78, and I guess it gives her something to do in retirement.

SpiderMan

Chopstick
07-08-2008, 10:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I remember about Loeb is the AM radio ads from the 60s - if you spill sauce on your shirt at Loeb's BBQ, we'll clean it free at Loeb's Laundry.

SpiderMan </div></div>

i remember that. i even heard the add in my head when i read this.

my shift key quit workin again dammit.

Deeman3
07-08-2008, 12:31 PM
I remember Prince Mongo, a pizza joint owner that drew 100% metal disbility, I beleive. Ran a strong 3rd for Mayor. I was gone by that time but remember from the papers my parents sent me overseas.

I have, as well, had the liberal disability hit my family as my youngest was a liberal democrat for a bit but recently has come around to more rational thinking.

I remember when Firestone and Harvester were the only games in town back then. I thank God I never went to work at either place as I'd probabaly be a card carrying union member now. Of course, without a job. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Crump was before my time as well but not before Loeb's, of course. I think he was about like Boss Tweed in the early days. Corrupt and proud of it.

You remember Trent Wood and Looney Zoo? My first TV appearance. Of course, I wet my pants on stage! Hey, I was only about 6 and I was new to TV!

mike60
07-08-2008, 12:40 PM
Spider, "will be working the McCain/Osama debate at Ole Miss this fall." This is just
childish and dumb. Calling OBAMA OSAMA is ignorant bullshit. He may well be the next President and unlike the present resident of 1600 Pennsylvania ave. he has yet to dishonor the office or the country.
mike60

Bobbyrx
07-08-2008, 01:19 PM
My parents grew up in Collierville so I visited my grandmother who was still there in the 60's. We always watched Fantastic Features with Savad. Nothing like those B horror movies when you were a kid !! and by the way, you said you wanted to know about tourneys in B'ham :

2008 July 26, 27

ALABAMA AMATEUR OPEN
8 & 9-Ball
Poppa G's
$1,000 Added
Open to all amateur players
Entry fee before July 22 - $75 - After - $100
Payout based on 32 players
1st $830
2nd $675
3rd $525
4th $370
5-6th $215
7-8th $125
Call David Rowell for info 492-1339

Deeman3
07-08-2008, 01:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bobbyrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My parents grew up in Collierville so I visited my grandmother who was still there in the 60's. We always watched Fantastic Features with Savad. Nothing like those B horror movies when you were a kid !! and by the way, you said you wanted to know about tourneys in B'ham :

</div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">Bobby,

Thanks, I'll try to make it. Sounds like a good tournament.

Sivad, The guy was named Davis so Sivad was his name backwards. Loved the movies and almost never missed one.

Watching "The Thing" for the first time on Fantastic Features was the second time I wet my pants. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif
</span>

Bobbyrx
07-08-2008, 03:36 PM
Someone told me that everything is on Youtube. I now believe it. I must have too much time on my hands........ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gifYouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QgwgDvq3t4&feature=related)

Deeman3
07-08-2008, 03:47 PM
I would never have beleived it! That6 brought back memories like it was yesterday. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Thanks

SpiderMan
07-08-2008, 04:23 PM
Same here - my kindergarten class was on Looney Zoo one time.

Do you remember how they used to give some kid 10 minutes in Trent Wood's toy store, and he could keep everything he could get out the door with? We used to daydream about that, and how we'd maximize the opportunity if we ever won. Never personally knew anyone that won, though. Maybe it was all staged for TV.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
07-08-2008, 04:26 PM
I liked Fantastic Features also, never missed a weekend with the "Monster of Ceremonies". BTW, it was "Sivad" - his true last name, Davis, spelled backwards.

SpiderMan

Chopstick
07-08-2008, 04:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bobbyrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone told me that everything is on Youtube. I now believe it. I must have too much time on my hands........ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gifYouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QgwgDvq3t4&feature=related) </div></div>

EIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 1111111111 SIVAD!

I can't believe I just saw that! Brother I owe you big for that one.

Hey Deeman I had a recurring nightmare when I was a kid about Looney Zoo. I was one of the kids they asked to stand up and speak and I didn't have any pants on. Had it every night for years. LOL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Bobbyrx
07-09-2008, 11:58 AM
I haven't had any luck finding anything on the Happy Hal Miller Show, lol........you know you're getting old when you can remember Happy Hal's theme song from 40 years ago but can't remember your own cell phone number /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Deeman3
07-10-2008, 07:15 AM
Guys,

We are all getting soooo old! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

mike60
07-10-2008, 02:34 PM
Soupy Sales?

mike60