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Gayle in MD
05-27-2008, 09:16 AM
What a consummate liar and spin meister he is. Did anyone watch this Week, with Stephenopolis? His semantical exercises in denial and smoke are truly an expertise in double talk that distinguishes itself as superior to even the most dispicable of con artists.

It wasn't Republican corruption which turned the last election against Republicans, it was "scandals." Oh, I see, just the scandals about the corruption, not the corruption itself?

He refused to answer the question about his involvment with the Don Siegelman fiasco, yes, Karl Rove deliberately declined to deny his involvement in the controversial prosecution of Don Siegelman, the former Alabama Governor whose arrest on grounds of corruption appeared politically motivated.
Rove said that he would not respond to a subpoena by the House Judiciary Committee imploring his testimony in the Siegelman case. When Stephenopolis asked if he had ever made contact with the Justice Department, he talked all around the question, but never answered it.

"I read about -- I'm going to simply say what I've said before, which is I found out about Don Siegelman's investigation and indictment by reading it in the newspaper."

"But that's not a denial," said the host George Stephanopoulos.

"I've -- you know, I read - I heard about it, read about it, learned about it for the first time by reading about it in the newspaper," Rove replied.

But Karl, that isn't the question, the question is were you involved in the plot!

Siegelman was sentenced to more than seven years in prison in 2006 under a bribery conviction. But his case had heavy hints of political motivation. Recently, a Republican campaign volunteer issued sworn testimony that she overheard a phone conversation suggesting Rove was linked to his case.

The issue in all of this is will the Bush Supreme Court issues another non precedent finding as they did to get Bush into office? Or will they maintain what has always been so, Aides to the President cannot ignore subpoenas, nor do they have any right to claim executive priveledge in a criminal investigation.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
05-27-2008, 11:09 AM
I will tell ya, this man brings the worst out in the Dems. LOL, they go to very low levels to show us just how bad they wished he was on their side.

eg8r

Deeman3
05-27-2008, 12:10 PM
Gayle,

Are you saying that Don Siegelman is innocent of the bribery charges or that it was just unfair that he was prosecuted as he was a Democrat?

I am familiar wiht his admission of guilt but adding that he did not personally benefit from the bribes (aside fomr the political appointments).

wolfdancer
05-27-2008, 01:03 PM
Dee, here's your chance to help out:
http://donsiegelman.org/

but they got the right man in there now as Gov.
http://donsiegelman.org/pages/topics/QUESTIONS/laundered_money.html

Deeman3
05-27-2008, 01:27 PM
Wolfdancer,

Now you can do better than two DonSiegelman websites! O.K. Yes, I like Riley better than Siegelman but that has nothingt o do with the envolopes I stuffed and mailed to him last year. Besaides, I like a good seat in the casino as well.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Bobbyrx
05-27-2008, 02:57 PM
You often accuse me of not reading or studying about something before I comment. Now I will say the same to you. Reading the Huffington post cliff notes version of this does not work. This has been in the Birmingham News almost daily for years.

Do you know Jill Simpson's history? Do you know what her SWORN testimony was in front of the House Judiciary Committee staff vs what she said to 60 minutes?

Do you know anything about Richard Scrushy (besides the crook he was at Health South) How about him buying off black churches and starting evangelical TV shows in which ever town he happened to be on trial, first Birmingham then Montgomery, trying to influence the jury pool.

And I guess you believe Sue Schmitz, a Democratic STATE senator from Toney, AL , caught along with a list of Democratic senators taking money from the state 2 year college system. "Rove is after us, its a Republican plot" Yeah, I think Rove influenced the dog catcher race in Slap Out, Al also. He's everywhere.

Any reason why Don Siegelman refused to testify in HIS OWN DEFENSE in the trial but now is talking to whom ever will listen?

Motive for Siegelman, Scrushy, Schmitz, et al to blame Rove or anyone else....get out of jail. Motive for Rove to go after them.............none

Gayle in MD
05-27-2008, 03:05 PM
What I am saying is that Karl Rove, of the missing five thousand e-mails administration, refused to answer the question put to him by Stephenopolis, and instead, used his own semantics to avoid answering.

Just as he used his own Rove speak to twoist all his other statements, such as using the word scandal, instead of corruption, as the reason why voters said they would not vote Republican in 06.

If you check out his words, you'll see what I mean, and as far as the man's guilt, I should tell you that I have not yet studied about his case, however, it is clear to me, given what I do know, that the Republican intention was to use the Department of Justice as a tool for political purposes, and Rove, Gonzales, and Meyers were right in the middle of that little plan, and also in the middle of the plan to fire all those attorney generals who did not cooperate. Hence, I would have to know quite a bit more about Mr. Siegelman's case before I could have an opinion about his guilt or innocence. I have heard statements made by certain officials in his state, and I honestly cannot recall their names or positions, but they were of the opinion that he got a bum wrap, and that the actions of the prosecutor involved, were highly irregular.

Gayle in Md.

LWW
05-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Even Siegelman says there was no "plot" and the key 60 Minutes witness is a proven liar and they knew that when they ran the piece ... of course the sheeple care not.

BTW, what did the RNC in during the 06 election was Reps running on liberal principles after betraying conservative principles against Dems running on conservative principles hypocritically.

LWW

Gayle in MD
05-27-2008, 03:13 PM
What does any of that have to do with the fact that Rove never answered the question? What does any of that have to do with the fact that this administration has invoked executive priviledge in unprecedented ways, and that they destroyed five thousand e-mails, and fired a dozen attorney Generals who refused to play ball and assist them with their intended plan to use the Department Of Justice, as a political tool?

What does any of that have to do with Rove refusing to testify under oath?

What does any of that have to do with karl Rove being in contempt for stonewalling, and refusing to testify?


What does any of that have to do with my post?

Gayle in Md.

Bobbyrx
05-27-2008, 03:41 PM
Because every time any Democratic politian, no matter how unimportant they are, gets their hands caught in the cookie jar, they are going to yell "it's a Rove plot to get me" and call him up to testify.

Gayle in MD
05-27-2008, 03:53 PM
There have been hours and hours of testimony regarding the Republican Plot to use the Department of Justice as a political tool, and go so far as to fire those who were not "LOYAL BUSHIES" to use some of the direct testimony.

There have also been other top aides, Erlichman, and Heldeman, for example, who have testified under oath.

Usually, when people refuse to raise their hand to God, and take an oath, and testify, their hiding something, and they're also guilty, and afraid of getting caught perjuring themselves.

Of Course, over five thousand missing e-mails, breaking the law by using a secondary e-mail account for presidential, and executive business, and a convenient fire in the Vice Presidents Office, wouldn't raise any suspicions! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
05-28-2008, 06:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I am saying is that Karl Rove, of the missing five thousand e-mails administration, refused to answer the question put to him by Stephenopolis, and instead, used his own semantics to avoid answering.</div></div>When hillary quits doing the same thing then we might listen to you.

The left kicks themselves every time Rove beats them and there only wish is for him to turn sides and join the Dems.

eg8r

Deeman3
05-28-2008, 07:15 AM
Ed,

Karl Rove is a little like James Carvil with a little better batting average. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Gayle in MD
05-28-2008, 07:59 AM
I don't think James ever got involved in a plot to out a covert CIA agent, nor to politicize the Department of Justice, in order to use it as a tool against the opposition.

The fact is that we have gone to war on lies and propaganda, and over four thousand young Americans are now dead. Their suicide rates are rising alarmingly. Their PTSD numbers rose alarmingly in 07.

The very thought that any American would utter pleasantries about Karl Rove, the lynchpin spinmeister of the propaganda and lies that George Bush and Dick Cheney have been telling for over seven years, is incomprehensible.

I think it is fair to state that Karl Rove refused to answer the questions put to him, regarding his role in politicizing the Department of Justice, and used the same semantical game playing that was used to sell this country the proprganda that led us into an un-necessary, illegal war, on lies.

What is sad, is that there are any Americans who approve of Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Rice or George Bush, who have led this country down a devastating path, and continue their lies non stop, including lies about the present prices of oil, which ignore the major contributing factors, which have little to do with normal market influences of supply and demand, and everything to do with the corporate fascists who are hedge funding us to death, hoarding oil, hiding it away, price fixing to line their own pockets at our expense. All of this, thanks to Republicans, who in 2000, in the dark of the night, carved out the green light for it when they removed the safe guards against the same kind of Enron LOOPHOLE activity that we are paying for as a nation now, every time we must fill up our tanks. Bush has consistantly lied about it, calling it normal supply and demand, as he continues to hold the way clear for more gouging of the American Public, refusing any corporate regulations against price fixing, which would protect hard working Americans from being gouged by special interests, the Enrons, and Goldman Sachs, the hedge funders, of the world, AKA the Corporate Fascist Pigs.

The point of this post, however, is that Rove refused to answer the questions about his involvment in the plan to indict this man, and other Democrats, targeting them, by using the Department of Justics, for political purposes. That act is illegal, regardless of the guilt or innocence of anyone who was targetted. If he was innocent, he'd go in there and hold up his hand and swear to his innocence, but don't hold your breath on that one! the right can defend all these activities all they wish, however, they cannot requires that the rest of us buy into their fantasies, any more than we will buy into all the other fantasies and propaganda, which were used and embraced by this administration, and their supporters.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
05-28-2008, 08:35 AM
I don't think Karl Rove got involved in a plot to out a covert CIA agent either. Last night, he made that clear. It is fair to state that Rove did not answer too many questions on matters that still have to be litigated. I can't blame him for that. Your expectation that he comment on items that will soon be before a court is not reasonable and would not be responsible, in the Clinton Tradition, of not saying anything.

I do apoligise for the comparison of Rove to Carvil in one sense as he was not the overall strateist that Rove was. In the supposed outing of the Plame Dame, last night, Mr. Rove clearly stated he had not outted her just as the records and testimony show.

If he is subpeoned to testify and does not, without good legal reasons, then we can discuss his involvement more effectively.

Gayle in MD
05-28-2008, 08:56 AM
You might be interested in reading some of the excerpts now available from Scott McClellen's new book, for which I'm sure he will be attacked vigorously by the White House, Rove, and the vast right wing press.

His descriptions of Bush's White House administration match all the others. Another commentary to Bush's constant state of denial, Rove and Libby's trying to get their lies together for dealing with their involvments, and possibly the vice President's, in Plames outing, and all the propaganda the White House used in their premature rush to occupy Iraq, along with their ruling doctrine for running government, secretly, politically, and without any honesty.

There is no testimony which clears Rove of any involvment that I know of. The fact that the case could not be proved, may well have something to do with Rove and Libby holding a meeting to get their lies together, which McClellan writes about in his new book. I recall, that the special Prosecutor was unable to get the e-mails which may well have proven Rove's involvment, and considered re-opening the case once he learned of Rove's secret use of the RNC e-mail account.

While the outing, itself, is a hard case to prove, it was clear, the Special Prosecutor laid the involvment right at Vice President Cheney's office door. I suppose if you are a Bush supporter you can glue together some semblence of innocence, however, the statements, from both federal judges, the special prosecutor, the findings of several juries, surely do not clear any of them of involvment, IMO, but rather point suspicion directly at the White House, Rove, Cheney and Libby, and now, McClellan's book paints much the same picture of the cover up, along with the propaganda used to sell the country on this illegal, immoral, un-necessary occupation in Iraq, which has killed over four thousand young Americans, as their PTSD numbers continue to rise, along with their alarming suicide rates.



Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
05-28-2008, 09:04 AM
As you have said on occasion in regard to Hillary's many legal problems, accusations are not proven facts and suspicions are not enough to convict in most courts. Speculation over e-mails and meetings we were not privy to are just baseless charges and, even in present day America, are not enough to convict a man or women.

What all this has to do with high suicide rates among returning vets is not clear to me.

Scott may be perfectly right or may be interested in selling books. I am not sure of which but will read it at the first opportunity, then comment.

Gayle in MD
05-28-2008, 09:15 AM
I'd say that the man who had access to more information than you or I, or the publice, was very clear about what he thought when he said that a cloud remains over the Vice President's office.

The fact that only the White House had a motive, might also be considered compelling.

Added to that, missing e-amils, and fires in the Vice President's office, and now, McClellan's statements, but I'
m sure that to some, no amount of evidence, not even a conviction on four charges of obstruction of Justice, and purgery, would be enough.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
05-28-2008, 09:18 AM
You are wrong. If Rove or the VP is convicted of a crime, I will support the decision. It is still necessary to consider someone innocent until proven guilty despite the noise from the left to the contrary.

After all this aint Guantanamo.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eb_in_nc
05-28-2008, 09:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are wrong. If Rove or the VP is convicted of a crime, I will support the decision. It is still necessary to consider someone innocent until proven guilty despite the noise from the left to the contrary.

After all this aint Guantanamo.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

Deeman, I commend your defense of an individuals right of being innocent until proven guilty.

Gayle has a lot to say about Bush's cowboy politics, but I find it ironic that she seems to employ her own "Lord of the Flies" logic regarding people's innocence and associated rights protecting them.

Gayle in MD
05-28-2008, 10:07 AM
They have been convicted in the eyes of most Americans, from both the left, and the right. McClellan's book agrees with all the others, that the White House was behind the leak, that Cheney was the true source, and that their usual secret, hidden ilegal efforts were well burried, under their underlings, who always take the fall. Same thing happened at Gitmo, Katrina, Iraq, they never take any blame, in spite of the fact that they are behind all the policies.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/28/highlights_from_what_happened.html

There is a virtual library of documentation about the illegality, deciet, and denial of the Bush Administration, right down to George Bush telling people that he couldn't recall if he ever used cocaine!

I guess we'll always have some around, who, for whatever the reasons, prefer to deny volumns of documentation, from a tremendously wide range of sources, including Special Prosecutors, Judges, and Jury Menbers, in order to justify their preferred version of the events, reardless of the implications for our country. I'm of the old school, if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duck, it's a damned duck! That's why I don't deny that Clinton was a womanizer, only that he was much more scrutinized for being one than any of the many others who preceeded him, and there were many, both Republican, and Democratic.

However, when it comes to the results of Bush's lies, and propaganda, documented by a virtual library of reporters, and CIA Agents, Pentagon employees, FBI agents, former terrorist Czars, former Presidents, and even National Security Icons, from decades back, to the present, all with the same view of Bush's lies and poor decisions, which have been paid for by our troops, many through the last full measure of devotion, I have nothing but complete repulsion for any defense of this administration. It's not a partisan thing, it's an aMerican thing, and outing a covert agent, regardless of whether or not it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, is treason, pure and simple, and the facts all point to an Administration which did so, and lied their way out of full retribution just as they do about all their other illegal activities.

Now comes McClellan, with yet another story which supports all the other previous documentation which already exists.

But, some think OJ was innocent!

I think justice was not served, as the Special Prosecutor said, and that the trail ended right outside the Vice President's office, also as the Special Prosecutor said, and the judges, and the jury members who spoke out after their dscision and conviction of Scooter Libby, for obstruction of Justice, and purgery.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
05-28-2008, 11:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and continue their lies non stop, </div></div>They continue their lies, Gayle continues her own lies, who is left to believe.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That act is illegal</div></div>If anything can be proven he will be in jail. Until then this illegality that has your panties in a twist will be a non-issue just like the secretary.

eg8r

eg8r
05-28-2008, 11:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might be interested in reading some of the excerpts now available from Scott McClellen's new book, for which I'm sure he will be attacked vigorously by the White House, Rove, and the vast right wing press.</div></div>Like him or not, it is quite surprising that one man can strike so much fear in a group of adults as Rove does. Rove owns the left and does whatever he wants with them. The left like to tell the world they are the "smarter" party, the party of intelligence, yet they cannot get past one man, Karl Rove. All this whining about Rove is proof positive that the Dems are quite upset he is not on their side.

eg8r

wolfdancer
05-28-2008, 11:48 AM
Probably your dumbest post to date...as you slowly sink to lww's moronic level of twisting things around to fit some manic beliefs that you have.
Karl rove is a pos...period....and while he may be your hero...his brand of politics and government is not what the framers had in mind. But you don't mind side-stepping the Constitution and the laws, as long as it enriches "your kind"

eg8r
05-28-2008, 11:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a virtual library of documentation about the illegality, deciet, and denial of the Bush Administration, right down to George Bush telling people that he couldn't recall if he ever used cocaine!

I guess we'll always have some around, who, for whatever the reasons, prefer to deny volumns of documentation</div></div> Complete BS. If these "volumes" were credible or even existent then we would have impeached W years ago and the whole group would be sitting in jail. You like to refer to your opinions and "beliefs" as fact and evidence but in the end it is not worth a hill of beans. Innocent until proven guilty, like it or not.

eg8r

LWW
05-28-2008, 12:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think Karl Rove got involved in a plot to out a covert CIA agent either. Last night, he made that clear. It is fair to state that Rove did not answer too many questions on matters that still have to be litigated. I can't blame him for that. Your expectation that he comment on items that will soon be before a court is not reasonable and would not be responsible, in the Clinton Tradition, of not saying anything.

I do apoligise for the comparison of Rove to Carvil in one sense as he was not the overall strateist that Rove was. In the supposed outing of the Plame Dame, last night, Mr. Rove clearly stated he had not outted her just as the records and testimony show.

If he is subpeoned to testify and does not, without good legal reasons, then we can discuss his involvement more effectively. </div></div>
Plame was first outed by her husband.

Plame sent Wilson, not Cheney.

It turns out the "16 words" were in fact the truth.

Gayle knows all of this to be true ... it just doesn't matter.

She is a big fan of Stalinesque show trials where the charge itself is sufficient so long as it is levied against an enemy of the party.

You might as well argue with Lenin's corpse.

LWW

LWW
05-28-2008, 12:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a virtual library of documentation about the illegality, deciet, and denial of the Bush Administration, right down to George Bush telling people that he couldn't recall if he ever used cocaine!

I guess we'll always have some around, who, for whatever the reasons, prefer to deny volumns of documentation</div></div> Complete BS. If these "volumes" were credible or even existent then we would have impeached W years ago and the whole group would be sitting in jail. You like to refer to your opinions and "beliefs" as fact and evidence but in the end it is not worth a hill of beans. Innocent until proven guilty, like it or not.

eg8r </div></div>
She knows all of this ... and she knows that all of these libraries exist only when bought and paid for and are almost entirely smoke and mirrors when investigated.

It doesn't matter.

She will eat whatever worms the party feeds her and then regurgitate the pap to wolfie, and they will hand in had tote the party's water like good little comrades.

LWW

Gayle in MD
05-28-2008, 12:30 PM
Gee, this is fun. I get to read all your posts,... fabulous, btw, without having to even see any of the **** that Ed, Nowhere man, EB, or the filthy Allycat writes.

I'm beginning to like the new board. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Love,
Gayle

eb_in_nc
05-28-2008, 12:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gee, this is fun. I get to read all your posts,... fabulous, btw, without having to even see any of the **** that Ed, Nowhere man, EB, or the filthy Allycat writes.

I'm beginning to like the new board. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Love,
Gayle

</div></div>

Yes, living in your own little world of things can be comforting. For some reason, I am not surprised by your own limited thoughts and conclusions, and the fact that you cannot see my messages changes nothing. Have fun with your own thoughts!

LWW
05-28-2008, 05:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gee, this is fun. I get to read all your posts,... fabulous, btw, without having to even see any of the **** that Ed, Nowhere man, EB, or the filthy Allycat writes.

I'm beginning to like the new board. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Love,
Gayle

</div></div>

Yes, living in your own little world of things can be comforting. For some reason, I am not surprised by your own limited thoughts and conclusions, and the fact that you cannot see my messages changes nothing. Have fun with your own thoughts! </div></div>
Gayle and Wolfie put people on ignore and then read every post.

They refer way too much to the content for it to be otherwise.

Put another way, they can't even be true to themselves.

LWW

Sid_Vicious
05-28-2008, 09:14 PM
"The point of this post, however, is that Rove refused to answer the questions about his involvment in the plan to indict this man"

Ditto! The law is the law. sid

Gayle in MD
05-29-2008, 07:37 AM
Sid,
It's so like the right, when the issue is, did this White House seek, and make efforts, to use the Department of Justice as a political tool, to veer off on discussions about the guilt or innocence of anyone who ended up in jail. That has nothing to do with the illegality of using the Deparment of Justice as a political tool.

The firings of all those competent Attorney Generals, with sterling reputations, who got calls from Republicans, pushing them to indict democrats, which in and of itself, was not legal, tells the story.

Gonzales' testimony was a joke. Rove's aide, continued the cover up. The missing e-mails. The "loyal Bushies" references.

It doesn't really matter what Bush supporters, few left, BTW, think...eighty percent of Americans believe that Bush has led this country down the wrong path, and our economy, infrastructure, illegal alien problems, two devastating wars in the Middle East, neither of which are successful, and add to that a President who is yapping about re-building Iraq and Afghanistan, while our bridges are collapsing right here, and our horrendous debts, accumulating with interest, only idiots would go back out there and vote Republican, for a man who is trying to justify bush's policies!

But there are still some around! The roughly twenty percent, of the nutty right! The same ones who don't care about Vice Presidential treason, continuing lies, illegal warrantless wire tapping, an administration who misleadthe country, and hence, had to take back sixteen words out of the State of the Union address. Gee, there is so much more, even worse.
Clearly though, there has been nothing in this administration that smacks of conservatism, and the word is now an oxymoron, which is a joke to the rest of the country.

They are angry because they were duped, just like McClellan was duped, and had his reputation ruined by the lying SOB's in the White House, after they all lied to him about their involvements in outing Valarie Plame.

The long trail of patirotic Americans, whose lives have been ruined by Rove and the rest of the thugs in the White House, going all the way back to Texas, is now longer than ever, while George Bush, stood up in an address yesterday, and stated, it is hard to re-build Iraq and Afghanistan in the midst of two raging wars! Five long years, of incompetence, is plenty long enough for eighty percent of the American people!


Americans are going to go out there and make a clean sweep! Too bad, it will be four years too late. This bunch should have been thrown out in 04, and Rove, the supposed boy genius, sure didn't do very well for his party in 06!

Thankfully, there are some Americans who have definitely seen the light on the corrupt, lying Republican spin Meisters, like Rove, Bush, Cheney, Rice, and the rest of the neocons. Now, we just have to put up with the BS that still comes from the nutty twenty percent, who have nothing left in their arsenals but trash talk and denials.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
05-29-2008, 07:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ditto! The law is the law. sid </div></div>Just remember that a part of that law is "innocent until proven guilty."

eg8r