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cushioncrawler
06-01-2008, 05:33 PM
I am prezently fixing my stroke with the help of a lazer. Its a $10 red dot pointer -- i araldited it onto a 120mm bit of 30mm pvc pipe -- i sawed a wide slot along the pipe, and a few shorter slots, so that i can slip it down any of my cues down to near the end of the butt, pointing backwards. U pozition it and turn it such that it sits under your grip (fingers or palm), with the lazer under or over the butt, but such that u kan press the little button (with palm or fingers) to turn it on.

I shine it onto a target (W) stuck on the wall behind the table. I get set for a shot straight up the table, aiming at a target (T) there, and freeze and look back at where the red dot iz aiming on W. Then i freeze at the end of my backswing, and check again on W.

I found that for my current natural backswing the cue/aim swings to the right of T during the backswing, and up, which i knew. This little hoik helps me to shoot straight, koz i naturally aim left of T at the start. But, lately, i hav been over-hoiking, and even my short-range shots hav gone sour.

Anyhow, the lazer iz helping me to find a new B/S etc. Plus, when i am testing this new stroke, hitting up & down the table, i am uzing a No15 pool ball, to help check if i am putting any unwanted spin on the ball -- and to help check where i am contacting the No15 (i check the chalk mark). And, i am finding that i need a slightly different style for skrew-shots, compared to roll-shots.

The beauty of the little pvc-lazer iz that i can fit it to any of my cues. Koz, your stroke alignment will of course depend on the taper of the cue, and any bend, and even the balance. And (in my case), the stiffness of the shaft, koz, i sometimes uze a style where i forcefully press the cue-shaft down (or left) into my bridge, which puts a bend in the cue (and aim).

Last week i woz playing around with a different setup. I put a mirror on the back wall, and i watched the reflekted dot dancing on the front wall (just right of and abov my aim) during the whole stroke. I had to offset the mirror so that my elbow didnt block the dot, and i leaned the mirror down a bit so that the dot woz lower down in my vizion not too far from my aim.

I can point the pvc-lazer forwards, but here my chin gets in the way unless i hold it higher, and a loop-bridge wouldnt work either (i uze a vee-bridge). U can point it at the Qball. And u can point it at a mirror laying flat on the table and reflekting the dot onto the front wall. But the prezent model iz a bit limited for some tests koz it iznt perfiktly aligned on the cue (ie on the pvc), some sort of adjustor would be good here.

If u dont like the feel of the thickness of the pvc-lazer under your grip, u can just push it back to the end of the butt, but then u will havta uze a clip of some sort to turn the button "on", or u kood wire-up a seperat small switch that sat under your palm or finger.

I dont know if this pvc-lazer would help anyone more than one of the (3??) lazers that u can prezently buy. madMac.

Jal
06-01-2008, 09:52 PM
Mac, interesting idea. You mention a vee bridge but I would be shocked if you haven't experimented with a loop at one time. I'm not recommending it, but just wondering if you've compared the amount of sideways motion with each type of bridge using your device. I'm not sure, but I feel a snug closed bridge does help stabilize my stroke a little (when needed).

Jim

cushioncrawler
06-01-2008, 10:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, interesting idea. You mention a vee bridge but I would be shocked if you haven't experimented with a loop at one time. I'm not recommending it, but just wondering if you've compared the amount of sideways motion with each type of bridge using your device. I'm not sure, but I feel a snug closed bridge does help stabilize my stroke a little (when needed). Jim</div></div>Jim -- Nah, i tryd the loop bridge again just then -- i giv it zero out of 4. (1) Feels rotten. (2) Iz too loose. (3) If u tighten it at all, the fingers etc grab the shaft so badly that u karnt stroke at all. (4) The view of aim iz rotten (small 2-1/16" ballz here). It mightent be so bad for big ballz and thick shaft and pro-taper.

But, i do uze a loop bridge when playing nursery cannons, koz i hold the cue very short and the loop stops the qtip from lifting too much. And, i uze the loop bridge for left-handed shots, but here i am uzually reeeching out over the table in a funny fashion, and i am only giving the ball a little poke, and anyhow i havnt learnt to make a vee bridge with my right-hand. madMac.

JoeW
06-02-2008, 01:48 AM
Thanks for the idea Mac. I will give it a try. I have a laser pointer used in classroom teaching and it only needs a battery (it is several years old). I think I might be able to mount it to the cue stick with a rubber band.

It is fascinating how the mind can know where the back hand is without seeing it and our ability to line up a shot when the stick itself is in one's peripheral vision. The laser idea can be used to better study one's stroke.

Curdog
06-02-2008, 08:59 AM
I thought I saw a lazer gizmo that attaches to your cue while watching one of the IPT matches. Did anyone see this and catch the name of the device?

eb_in_nc
06-02-2008, 09:08 AM
laser stroke (http://www.laserstroke.com/)

JJFSTAR
06-02-2008, 12:03 PM
There is another device I dont have it but here is the link looks interesting.

http://www.joetucker.net/

cushioncrawler
06-02-2008, 04:22 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eb_in_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> laser stroke (http://www.laserstroke.com/) </div></div>Yes, the LaserStroke looks good. I like the vertical line, koz side to side moovment iz the critical thing. I wonder how much it weighs, koz my pvc-lazer weighs 2.1oz (too much) -- i kood cut the pvc some more to get it down to say 1.6oz -- but that lazer pointer is heavy steel. LaserStroke shoodnt be more than 1.0oz i reckon. $67 sounds high.

The Tuckers Laser Trainer duznt really grab me. I remember once seeing one or two goodish dedicated laser-cues on the internet, with cross-hair lasers i think, looked good, about $100.

But i think that some healing claims are a bit fancyfull. (1) A lazer iz a good start, (2) then u qdrill with a marked ball, (3) then u qdrill with an nonmarked ball, (4) then u shoot real praktis shots (2 balls), (5) then u play real games.

Now, what we really need iz a lazer-hat, that showz how much u moov on the shot. madMac.

cushioncrawler
06-02-2008, 04:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the idea Mac. I will give it a try. I have a laser pointer used in classroom teaching and it only needs a battery (it is several years old). I think I might be able to mount it to the cue stick with a rubber band. It is fascinating how the mind can know where the back hand is without seeing it and our ability to line up a shot when the stick itself is in one's peripheral vision. The laser idea can be used to better study one's stroke.</div></div>Joe -- Rubber bands probably wont work, unless perhaps u make a groove (in a cheap cue) for the cylinderical pointer to sit in, in the butt probably, in which case u can point the lazer backwards or forwards (might need 2 groovz here, or one long one??). I think i tryd sticky tape, but this woznt great neither (i didnt hav a groove). madMac.

JoeW
06-02-2008, 05:03 PM
OK, I'll grab and old cue and a file to see what I can make.

1Time
06-02-2008, 07:46 PM
I have never used one of these lasers. But I am certain there are better ways of developing one's stroke. And, I can easily imagine the use of one inhibiting the development of one's stroke.

cushioncrawler
06-02-2008, 08:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never used one of these lasers. But I am certain there are better ways of developing one's stroke. And, I can easily imagine the use of one inhibiting the development of one's stroke.</div></div>I agree. I woz just then checking if there woz much difference in my aim when addressing the qtip very hi on the qball compared to center -- and to very low -- and there woz a little. And i woz comparing same when my elbow woz tucked in a bit compared to vertical -- and to out a bit -- and to out a lot (chickenwing). And comparing all of theze when at the end of the backswing.

Other than that (after that), for stroke praktis (experimenting), i feel i get much more out of uzing the No15 ball az a qball (with zero lazer).

I doubt that anyone would get much out of actually uzing a lazer while hitting the qball. So much happens so quickly. Perhaps u might if u uzed a video so that u kood play it (the red dot) back in slo-mo. madMac.

JoeW
06-03-2008, 05:59 AM
There are many things in life that are counter intuitive and yet are quite helpful for diagnostic purposes. X-rays, chemical diagnosis of diabetes, and similar devices improve our ability to determine the presence of problems to which our bodies are not initially sensitive. It is not obvious that a motorcycle rider should watch the end of the curve while riding to improve their control of the motorcycle. When the technique is learned the body quickly accommodates and there is better balance and a smoother ride.

Placing a laser device on the back of oneís cue stick may be another such diagnostic device. It is possible that it can show the player unintentional deviations. I think that it is likely that a player could diagnose and quickly fix potential problems of which they may not be aware through the use of the laser. For instance, I think that many people are not aware of why they need to use a pendulum swing because they cannot see it. If the swing is pulled past the natural arc of the pendulum the normal body function pulls the cue stick off line. The laser would graphically show this to be true.

With further study it might be found that a laser on the back of the stick is one of the better ways to teach a beginner to stroke because of the inherent graphics that allow the player to see what the back hand is doing. In other words, donít dismiss this idea too quickly.

An advanced player could quickly determine if their stroke is the source of a slump.

BTW, I supect that many players who have a long stroke are pulling the stick off line and then learning to put it back on line as they return to the natural arc. This unnecessary motion could be, and perhaps should be, removed for a more consistent stroke.

Rail Rat
06-03-2008, 01:32 PM
This could be the ultimate sniper laser system. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif



http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/Sniperpool.jpg

1Time
06-03-2008, 02:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could be the ultimate sniper laser system. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif</div></div>
That's about the equivalent to strapping a saddle to an Acme rocket.

cushioncrawler
06-03-2008, 06:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Placing a laser device on the back of oneís cue stick may be another such diagnostic device. It is possible that it can show the player unintentional deviations. I think that it is likely that a player could diagnose and quickly fix potential problems of which they may not be aware through the use of the laser. For instance, I think that many people are not aware of why they need to use a pendulum swing because they cannot see it. If the swing is pulled past the natural arc of the pendulum the normal body function pulls the cue stick off line. The laser would graphically show this to be true.

With further study it might be found that a laser on the back of the stick is one of the better ways to teach a beginner to stroke because of the inherent graphics that allow the player to see what the back hand is doing. In other words, donít dismiss this idea too quickly. An advanced player could quickly determine if their stroke is the source of a slump. BTW, I supect that many players who have a long stroke are pulling the stick off line and then learning to put it back on line as they return to the natural arc. This unnecessary motion could be, and perhaps should be, removed for a more consistent stroke.</div></div>Joe -- If u made a really big deep slot in the (cheap) qbutt, this would allow u to completely "bury" the lazer, just leaving the button proud a bit. The lazer wouldnt feel like a big lump under your grip. The slot would allow u or others to slide the laser up or back a bit to suit a different hold of the cue.

In my case i hav a hollow steel cue -- i kood fix the lazer in the hollow butt -- with the lazer button poking throo a hole for my finger or palm to actuate (or i kood just leave it turned on) -- possible with a row of holes for different lazer pozzyz for different holds on the cue.

Two mirrors on the back wall (one abov the other) kood accuratly bring the dot clear over u to hit a target straight down in front of u. Would save looking back, or needing an observer. madMac.

1Time
06-03-2008, 10:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are many things in life that are counter intuitive and yet are quite helpful for diagnostic purposes. X-rays, chemical diagnosis of diabetes, and similar devices improve our ability to determine the presence of problems to which our bodies are not initially sensitive. It is not obvious that a motorcycle rider should watch the end of the curve while riding to improve their control of the motorcycle. When the technique is learned the body quickly accommodates and there is better balance and a smoother ride.</div></div>

No, these laser devices get attention because their use intuitively seems beneficial. Their use does not seem counter-intuitive as you described. And so the reasoning you provided here supports their non-use.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Placing a laser device on the back of one’s cue stick may be another such diagnostic device. It is possible that it can show the player unintentional deviations. I think that it is likely that a player could diagnose and quickly fix potential problems of which they may not be aware through the use of the laser.</div></div>
There are far better "free" ways to self diagnose, be diagnosed by an instructor, and correct. Laser devices simply are not needed, and their use most likely would lead to misdiagnoses, wasted time attempting to solve perceived problems, and probably causing more problems than it solves. And so it seems quite a stretch to suggest they could be used to quickly diagnose and fix problems with one's pool stroke.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For instance, I think that many people are not aware of why they need to use a pendulum swing because they cannot see it. If the swing is pulled past the natural arc of the pendulum the normal body function pulls the cue stick off line. The laser would graphically show this to be true.</div></div>
A laser device is not needed to convince even a child of the greater value of using gravity and the pendulum motion. For example, you could pull out some keys on a key ring, swing them back and forth while holding one key, and then ask the following question. Can you move the swinging keys back and forth in a straighter line than this by moving them back and forth with your hand? And, this principle can be learned at the pool table with the use of a heavier and substantially lighter cue, where the heavier cue can be shown to take a more noticeable advantage of the use of gravity and the pendulum motion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With further study it might be found that a laser on the back of the stick is one of the better ways to teach a beginner to stroke because of the inherent graphics that allow the player to see what the back hand is doing. In other words, don’t dismiss this idea too quickly.</div></div>
Do a study. Present the findings. But here's what I say will be learned from it. Not recommended and a waste of time. There are better "free" ways for a beginner to learn.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An advanced player could quickly determine if their stroke is the source of a slump.</div></div>
Nonsense. Further study won't show this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, I supect that many players who have a long stroke are pulling the stick off line and then learning to put it back on line as they return to the natural arc. This unnecessary motion could be, and perhaps should be, removed for a more consistent stroke. </div></div>
The only thing that should define necessary and unnecessary motion in a stroke is what works best for that individual, and I can't imagine how that could best be determined with the use of a laser device. Further, the use of a laser device most likely would hinder the development of one's stroke.

JoeW
06-04-2008, 06:26 AM
1Time it would appear that you are of the opinion that an instructor is of help when learning to play pool. Here is what some instructors and others have to say about the Laser Stroke that is similar to Cushioncrawlers. I apologize if you find my arguments flawed, perhaps the others may be more persuasive.


Testimonials from Laser Stroke (http://www.laserstroke.com/index.html)

Quote by Tom Simpson BCA Master Instructor.
Terrific Training Aid !
"The Laser Stroke is just what I've been looking for.It shows the player the truth about what their stroke is doing , absolutely clearly , and in real time.
This will help us spot stroke flaws and test how well our suggested changes are working . Woo Hoo ."!


Quote by John W. Loftus, Inside Pool Magazine columnist and author of the book , How to Be the Captain of a Winning APA 8-Ball Team .

"I have tried different ways to perfect my pool stroke , but
the Laser Stroke is not only Deadly Accurate , it's also FUN to use . Use it daily and your stroke won't be the same .
The improvement will be noticeable !"


Quote by Randy Goettlicher, BCA Master Instructor. CUE - TEC Pool School .
"The Laser Stroke Works Just Grand ."
" I have used it to teach our aiming system.Really helps the
students see the aim point ."

Quote from Tom Ross, World Class Instructor and Columnist for Billiard's Digest

"My Laser Stroke arrived on Saturday and I was able to offer it to
about a half-dozen players for a test drive. Everyone was impressed
and easily able to see its benefit. On Thursday I'll be able to bring
it out for a group of my students. It appears that everyone who tries
it sees unwanted movement in his stroke and, best of all, can begin
to correct it with instant feedback. I always encourage players to
practice with their strokes away from a pool table so they can tune
in without any distractions or concerns, like pocketing balls for
example. I like your device and am happy to endorse it to students as
an effective training aid to use at home, away from a pool table."

DeadCrab
06-04-2008, 06:33 AM
You will probably have to machine a precise aperture to have any hope of having the laser actually point where you think it does.

Those cheap pointer-types tend to be cock-eyed in their cases. Not a problem when flailing it at a powerpoint slide, but it has the potential to be way off for any sort of precision work.

Think twice before pointing one of these things at a mirror. Your retinae will thank you.

JoeW
06-04-2008, 06:42 AM
My retinae thank you DeadCrab. I got the new batteries last night and plan to try it this morning.

Rail Rat
06-04-2008, 09:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I doubt that anyone would get much out of actually uzing a lazer while hitting the qball. So much happens so quickly. Perhaps u might if u uzed a video so that u kood play it (the red dot) back in slo-mo. madMac. </div></div>

I agree that a laser cannot really show you all the peculiarities of an individual stroke. It can certainly show the results ie, cue coming thru off line, but how one could interpret that as to what is causing it could be difficult. For instance: if we put a laser on Reyers' cue we would see dipping, swerving and a host of other problems, but somehow the ball goes in! So at the last second he's correcting his flaws.

You mention a video (or Digital movie camera). I humbly suggest this as an excellent way to see what ones stroke is doing. I have had pros look at my stroke and make suggestions but I had trouble really seeing it in my minds eye. Once I saw my self on camera, it was..."holy, %#@&*...I'm doing that?" I did'nt like my stance, my leg bend or anything. It was not how I had thought I saw myself.

Set the camera up on a tripod, and shoot directly from behind, from the side and in front. If possible directly overhead is a real eye opener!!!

During these series of set ups try 10 shots each of draw, follow and side spin. (I found that my stroke was good on follow but I tended to pull off line with a slight raised elbow on draw.) I went back and concentrated on not doing that and shot it again and again until I finally fixed it..

-Rail Rat

JoeW
06-04-2008, 10:19 AM
Here is my implementation of CushionCrawler's laser.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q146/JoeW04/LaserAim2.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q146/JoeW04/LaserAim1.jpg

Of course I used duct Tape. That is a chalk box with a "V" cut in it holding up the front of the cue stick. A billard balls box is used to locate the red dot (Thanks DeadCrab). I used a piece of chalk on the diamond and lined the cue stick up on the diamonds with the butt of the cue resting on the rail and aimed at the diamond. Taped the laser to the cue and adjusted for alignment. It worked reasonably well for alignment. Good old duct tape - One of man's best friends.

Is the laser site a useful tool? Well - yes and no. It did show me my stoke as seen from the back hand and it needs no adjustment. The device is clunky to work with and needs to be rotated just so. When I aim at an OB (no CB) a table length away it moves on and off the OB so it wasn't all that useful there. When I aim at the billiard box and try to keep it on one spot it shows the wiggle in my stroke that I can eaily correct. So it was helpful there.

Of most interest was the amount the stick is pulled off line as I exceed the pendulum. I learned that I am going to shorten my stroke. Snooker players do know a thing or two about extreme accuracy.

When sighting on an OB a table's length away it is intersting to see the amount that the cue stick moves up and down due to the natural arc in the pendlum swing. Appaently placement of the bridge hand and having the forearm dead vertical when it is on the CB is quite important. Of course the laser movement is exaggerated but the off target movement during the stroke is present and reinforces the notion that inital back arm placement is an important part of one's pre-shot routine.

If you have the equipment this is indeed a good learning experiment that shows some of the things that effect your stroke.

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Atta boy CushionCrawler</span>. Love it when I learn new things.

JoeW
06-04-2008, 10:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could be the ultimate sniper laser system. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif



http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/Sniperpool.jpg </div></div>

This might be a good device that would allow my wife (who only has 20 / 300 or 20 /400 periphreal vision) to play pool. Do you know where I could get one? I could get seriously interested in this. Thanks for any further information.

Deeman3
06-04-2008, 12:22 PM
Joe,

I think this was a joke that Jennifer was just fooling around with, However, if you have a 3x9 Leoupold scope laying around, as Hillary would say, "Strap one on!"

Rail Rat
06-04-2008, 12:42 PM
I'm a shameless hussy Joe!.... apologies, I made this in photoshop, I'm a computer artist and I can't help myself sometimes. Although it would be a fantastic device If it it existed.

Sorry again, Rail Rat

JoeW
06-04-2008, 12:51 PM
Oh well, I can be gullible sometimes. If it could be made it would be a good device for the nearly blind. Great photo by the way.

cushioncrawler
06-04-2008, 04:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...When I aim at the billiard box and try to keep it on one spot it shows the wiggle in my stroke that I can eaily correct. So it was helpful there... Of most interest was the amount the stick is pulled off line as I exceed the pendulum. I learned that I am going to shorten my stroke. Snooker players do know a thing or two about extreme accuracy..... Of course the laser movement is exaggerated but the off target movement during the stroke is present and reinforces the notion that inital back arm placement is an important part of one's pre-shot routine.... If you have the equipment this is indeed a good learning experiment that shows some of the things that effect your stroke...</div></div>Joe, i hav been thinking (re the lazer) all along...
(1) Iz it possible (or eezy) to learn a new way of stroking??
...I tryd this this week with limited or fleeting success.
(2) Or, iz it better to change things other than your familiar old stroke, eg stance alignment, elbow in or out etc??
...This worked well for me, in my case i tryd everything, and what worked well woz...
2(a) Right elbow tucked back a little for centerball hits.
2(b) Tucked back a lot, for skrew shots.
2(c) A slower less jerky aktion.
2(d) A bit more pumping than normal during forward-stroke, ie less pendulum.

Aktually, i kood add what u kood call a stroke change...
1(a) Dont "dip" the qbutt during the backswing, try to keep it "level", or even "lift" iz ok.

But i refined/tested all of this uzing the No15 ball, not the lazer. I only uzed the lazer to check things early on. madMac.

Rail Rat
06-04-2008, 06:18 PM
Joe, Mac, I think this laser can help you a bit but the added weight of it on your stick must be effecting your stroke to some degeree so I wonder if it's a true read.

I agree on shortening up your stroke when you first start playing, then as you start getting your rhythm lenghten it out a bit. I use a short stroke on all easy shots but you need it on long shots and power draw.

Mac's list is a good plan. I was "raising" my elbow on draw shots and that caused me to scoop or miscue on a lot, so a steady arm is a must.

JoeW
06-04-2008, 06:33 PM
I think that it is possible to learn new stroking techniques. In the last year I have changed many things in my pre-shot routine for instance.

I changed to a snooker stance with my right foot along the cue stick line and my shoulder over the line of cue stick travel.

I shoot with an open bridge about 80% of the time now. This is a reversal from my prior ways.

I sight the cue with one eye on 90% of my shots this is a complete change for me.

These changes along with an increased emphasis on the OB target have me to the point where I can run a few racks of 9-ball (three is my best). Before that my high run was 1 rack.

In the last few weeks I have started using Joe Tucker's modified backhand english and and find that I am shooting even better. The feeling is weird but the shooting results are a definite improvement. I am not comfortable with it yet and two days ago began to incororate the pivot point at about 13" into my bridging. This too feels strange and I do not yet know if this will be an addition to my stroke.

Just this moring I decided to shorten the back swing based on your laser sight results and in less than an hour I learned that it is much easier to incorporate the pause into my stroke. I played a friend who is a B+ to A player (depending on how often he plays) and he never won a game in the three games we played before dinner. I have immediately seen results with the shorter back stroke. If I were down your way I would buy you a beer as I can see another phase shift coming in my game.

I don't know about others but I am always working on my game, tinkering with it. Who says an old dog (I am 65 this year) can't learn new tricks.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that you "tuck your elbow back?" Mine just seems to have one position based on hanging vertical. I use a slip stroke when I address the ball. That is I allow the stick to slid through my back hand until it is very close to the CB and my forearm is vertical.

I have been working for some time to incorporate the pause into my final swing and could not get comfortable with it. All of a sudden, today, the shorter stroke seems to go hand in hand with the pause and a silky accelerated follow through was the outcome.

With regard to pumping I am an advocate of a timed shot. That is, when I am ready I take two swings and fire on the third swing. I do not go into this rhythm until I am comfotable with the shot. Once it begins I do not stop. It seems to me that the rhythm allows all of the body parts to coordinate and all muscles are working in unison for the last smooth swing.

I can very realisticaly say that all of these changes over the last year have improved my game considerably. I played quite often when I ws younger but basically gave it up during 1992 when my first wife died. It is only in the last year that I have started to play seriously and all of these things have helped.

Other suggestions are always appreciated and I would like to hear more about tucking the elbow as I do not know what this means.

Rail Rat
06-04-2008, 06:55 PM
Joe, I beleive tucking your elbow in means bringing it in towards your body as you come forward on your stroke, this will cause the cue tip to swerve out a bit. The lower arm should be a perfect mechanical lever from the elbow which should remain vertical.

I'm turning 65 this year also and its been a long slow learning process for me. I'm semi retired now so more time for pool. Actually I'm playing better now than when I was young with all the knowledge of the game I'm acruing from more prcatice and forums like this.

JoeW
06-04-2008, 07:00 PM
Thanks Rail Rat. I have never heard of Tucking the elbow and will have to give it a try. It is a good thing I am still flexible as I am turning into a contortionist.

Ain't retirement grand. Don't know how I ever had time to work !

Rail Rat
06-04-2008, 07:04 PM
Don't tuck the elbow in if your're coming straight thru now, you don't want the tip to swerve out if your follow thru is ok.

Yes, time seems to leap by to fast now, its cutting into my pool playing! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

cushioncrawler
06-04-2008, 08:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that it is possible to learn new stroking techniques. In the last year I have changed many things in my pre-shot routine for instance.

I changed to a snooker stance with my right foot along the cue stick line and my shoulder over the line of cue stick travel.

I shoot with an open bridge about 80% of the time now. This is a reversal from my prior ways.

I sight the cue with one eye on 90% of my shots this is a complete change for me.

These changes along with an increased emphasis on the OB target have me to the point where I can run a few racks of 9-ball (three is my best). Before that my high run was 1 rack.

In the last few weeks I have started using Joe Tucker's modified backhand english and and find that I am shooting even better. The feeling is weird but the shooting results are a definite improvement. I am not comfortable with it yet and two days ago began to incororate the pivot point at about 13" into my bridging. This too feels strange and I do not yet know if this will be an addition to my stroke.

Just this moring I decided to shorten the back swing based on your laser sight results and in less than an hour I learned that it is much easier to incorporate the pause into my stroke. I played a friend who is a B+ to A player (depending on how often he plays) and he never won a game in the three games we played before dinner. I have immediately seen results with the shorter back stroke. If I were down your way I would buy you a beer as I can see another phase shift coming in my game.

I don't know about others but I am always working on my game, tinkering with it. Who says an old dog (I am 65 this year) can't learn new tricks.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that you "tuck your elbow back?" Mine just seems to have one position based on hanging vertical. I use a slip stroke when I address the ball. That is I allow the stick to slid through my back hand until it is very close to the CB and my forearm is vertical.

I have been working for some time to incorporate the pause into my final swing and could not get comfortable with it. All of a sudden, today, the shorter stroke seems to go hand in hand with the pause and a silky accelerated follow through was the outcome.

With regard to pumping I am an advocate of a timed shot. That is, when I am ready I take two swings and fire on the third swing. I do not go into this rhythm until I am comfotable with the shot. Once it begins I do not stop. It seems to me that the rhythm allows all of the body parts to coordinate and all muscles are working in unison for the last smooth swing.

I can very realisticaly say that all of these changes over the last year have improved my game considerably. I played quite often when I ws younger but basically gave it up during 1992 when my first wife died. It is only in the last year that I have started to play seriously and all of these things have helped.

Other suggestions are always appreciated and I would like to hear more about tucking the elbow as I do not know what this means.</div></div>Joe -- I am not exaktly sure what i meen when i say that it iz diffikult to change your stroke. Thingz that i reckon aint a part of your stroke are....
(1) Stance, alignment, grip, eye use, backhand pivot, type and length of bridge, elbow tucked in or out, keeping head stiller, looking at the qball last, watching the qtip last etc. None of theze thingz need affekt your conscious hit, even tho for sure they will affekt the rezult.

Thingz that might be considered a part of your stroke are....
(2) A pause at the start or end of the backswing, a slower or faster or longer or shorter backswing or forwardswing, a looser or firmer grip, less or more feathering etc. But i dont think so, they need not affekt your conscious hit.

Thingz that are i think a part of your stroke are....
(3) % of pendulum action, % of pump action, consciously guiding the cue (butt) on a different line for b/s or f/s, consciously hoiking the cue in some fashion to help get skrew or english or ??. But here i might be contradicting what i said earlyr.

For me i can turn on/off anything in (1) and (2) without it hurting my brain or feeling funny in any way, they are all preliminary or peripheral or ??. But changing anything in my natural action in (3) uzually involves more pain and tends to evaporate when u really need it, and i would rather firstly exhaust everything in (1) and (2).

Tucking the elbow back (ie in) meenz that it iz inside the line of the shot (alah Willie Hoppe and Wallie von Lindrum). Its amazing how many top snooker players tuck their elbow in. madMac.

cushioncrawler
06-04-2008, 08:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Rail Rat. I have never heard of Tucking the elbow and will have to give it a try. It is a good thing I am still flexible as I am turning into a contortionist. Ain't retirement grand. Don't know how I ever had time to work ! </div></div>Joe -- In my case i tuck the elbow in (back) at address, either immediately and automatically, or i set it on line (vertical) and then tuck it in a bit or a lot. It duznt in any way affekt my conscious hit. However, i notice that when i uze this style (setup), it automatically makes me throw out my left arm straighter (i am fond of bending it and resting my elbow on the table), and it automaticall makes me turn my right shoulder closer to the line, plus it automatically makes me correkt my cue alignment at end of b/s. No swing changes necessary (on this account). madMac.

Rail Rat
06-04-2008, 11:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Rail Rat. I have never heard of Tucking the elbow and will have to give it a try. It is a good thing I am still flexible as I am turning into a contortionist. Ain't retirement grand. Don't know how I ever had time to work ! </div></div>Joe -- In my case i tuck the elbow in (back) at address, either immediately and automatically, or i set it on line (vertical) and then tuck it in a bit or a lot. It duznt in any way affekt my conscious hit. However, i notice that when i uze this style (setup), it automatically makes me throw out my left arm straighter (i am fond of bending it and resting my elbow on the table), and it automaticall makes me turn my right shoulder closer to the line, plus it automatically makes me correkt my cue alignment at end of b/s. No swing changes necessary (on this account).
madMac. </div></div>

Mac, isn't it best to have your upper arm perfectly horizontal and stationary all through the shot, with the lower arm swing on the vertical axis from the elbow with the wrist straight? The shoulder should be on a line directly over the arm swing. I know there are variations but my mentor pounded this into my head endlessly.

I've thought of creating a moving diagram that shows this, although there may be some other artist who's done that and posted it on the net. With a diagram the nuances you mention could be more studied.
-Rat

JoeW
06-05-2008, 06:47 AM
I think I understand the idea but have not really tried it - yet. Currently I stroke as Rail Rat describes it for the reasons he gives. It makes sense to me that the upper arm and eye must be aligned. The shorter stroke appears to be quite effective and I am able to get a considerable amount of power as needed. In particular I like the way it naturally included the pause and a smoother acceleration.

However on a draw or screw shot, a longer stroke is needed for the smooth acceleration that is required. And I do tend to elevate the butt for power draw because it works for me.

From CushionCrawler's comments I can understand why tucking the elbow closer to the body will help keep the cue stick on line for an extended stroke. The natural tendency is for the body to pull the cue stick away from the body as the pendulum is exceeded. Tucking the elbow in works against this tendency and allows for a longer stroke.

Apparently the shoulder and upper arm stay in line with the shot while the lower arm moves towards the body for a longer stroke. These are subtle changes and I will try them to see if I can get a better draw and power draw. I suspect that if it works for me there will be a tendency to incorporate this type of alignment in all shots for consistency in approach thus alowing for a longer stroke, which feels better, in all shots.

Deflection, swerve, modified back hand english, and elbow tucking all lead to many many different angles that are considered. It is no wonder people say you have to develop a feel for the game.

BTW CushionCrawler, I like your distinctions between stroke and
pre-shot routine, I will keep them in mind. Clear thinking is always helpful.

JoeW
06-05-2008, 07:00 AM
I am somewhat impressed by the idea that the pause was naturally incorporated into the shorter swing (a swing that does not exceed the natural pendulum). In thinking about this it would seem that with the shorter swing the arm stays on line and the sighting picture during the pause is in agreement with the initial alignment. When a longer swing and pause is used one is attempting to determine if the stick is on line while the body is pulling the stick off line. This feels wrong and hence one does not want to pause until the stick is back on line.

Perhaps tucking the elbow will address this issue. Experimentation will tell. Like many people I like a longer swing, it just feels right. However, if it leads to inconsistency then the longer swing has to go. Perhaps learning to tuck one's elbow allows for the best of both worlds -- a longer and still accurate swing.

eb_in_nc
06-05-2008, 07:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am somewhat impressed by the idea that the pause was naturally incorporated into the shorter swing (a swing that does not exceed the natural pendulum). In thinking about this it would seem that with the shorter swing the arm stays on line and the sighting picture during the pause is in agreement with the initial alignment. When a longer swing and pause is used one is attempting to determine if the stick is on line while the body is pulling the stick off line. This feels wrong and hence one does not want to pause until the stick is back on line.

Perhaps tucking the elbow will address this issue. Experimentation will tell. Like many people I like a longer swing, it just feels right. However, if it leads to inconsistency then the longer swing has to go. Perhaps learning to tuck one's elbow allows for the best of both worlds -- a longer and still accurate swing. </div></div>

Perhaps someone needs to come up with a "stroke training harness" that keeps the elbow tucked in while allowing the pendulum to swing full stroke. This would give someone the input to correct for deviations that happen at the beginning and end of the stroke.

JoeW
06-05-2008, 08:11 AM
A harness would work if you could make subtle adjustments. Your comment leads me to think that some sort of laser beam could show the player if they are staying on line with a tucked elbow. So we are back to CushionCrawler's idea. Maybe he was headed there all along.

Old age and treachery -- I did not know it applied to learning to improve one's game as well :-)

Qtec
06-05-2008, 08:23 AM
A harness?


OMG.

There have been many pre-shot routine threads. They all basically say the same thing, ie there is only one pre-shot routine.


EVE..........


Evaluation.
Visualisation.
Execution.

Qtec

Rail Rat
06-05-2008, 11:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A harness would work if you could make subtle adjustments. Your comment leads me to think that some sort of laser beam could show the player if they are staying on line with a tucked elbow. So we are back to CushionCrawler's idea. Maybe he was headed there all along.

Old age and treachery -- I did not know it applied to learning to improve one's game as well :-) </div></div>

Joe I found the best possible alternative to improving my game or correcting flaws is to get a good instructor. The discussions here and with my fellow players are helpful but theres nothing like having ones play analysed. You sound very knowledgable so you probbaly have had some training all readdy.

I had weeks of drill from a pro snooker player here in Vancouver about 20 years ago, but now since I have the time I think I will seek out some more advice . I've reached a point in my game where I need to have my basic stroke and stance re-examined. I think every one needs a tune up every couple of years.

If I did'nt live so far away I would try some of the pros mentioned in this forum.

JoeW
06-05-2008, 02:07 PM
Yahoo maps says it is 950 mi or 15 hours from you to Bob Jewett in San Francisco, CA. Of all of the availble instructors he is the one I would choose. Bob is a past national collegiate champion and in my opinion the Dean of pocket billiards. He teaches the teachers and apparently writes the curriculum. Bob is an engineer so he understands the physics of the game and has many years hanging out with players and tournament players. I doubt there are many people who know the game from all angles as well as Bob. In my opinion he does not get anywhere near the respect that he deserves. Like many truly outstanding people he has little need to boast or extoll his own virtues.

I suspect that once you have reached a certain level of skill the student has to seek out the best available teacher. Something like going to graduate school. Jewett's teaching would be the equivalent in my opinion.


You are closer to him than I am but I know that if I am ever out that way I would look him up and pay whatever he charges.

I do not know Bob personally, except through a few exchanges on the net, but I certainly admire his work. If he were to offer a seminar or some such onthe net, I would be one of the first to sign up.

Here is a link to his web site with many intesting things.

San Fran Billiards (http://www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm)

Rail Rat
06-05-2008, 03:53 PM
Yes he has been mentioned in this forum many times. He takes advanced players so I would be interested for sure. I'm headed down to LA soon I might drop in and take a look.

cushioncrawler
06-05-2008, 04:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Rail Rat. I have never heard of Tucking the elbow and will have to give it a try. It is a good thing I am still flexible as I am turning into a contortionist. Ain't retirement grand. Don't know how I ever had time to work ! </div></div>Joe -- In my case i tuck the elbow in (back) at address, either immediately and automatically, or i set it on line (vertical) and then tuck it in a bit or a lot. It duznt in any way affekt my conscious hit. However, i notice that when i uze this style (setup), it automatically makes me throw out my left arm straighter (i am fond of bending it and resting my elbow on the table), and it automaticall makes me turn my right shoulder closer to the line, plus it automatically makes me correkt my cue alignment at end of b/s. No swing changes necessary (on this account). madMac.</div></div>Mac, isn't it best to have your upper arm perfectly horizontal and stationary all through the shot, with the lower arm swing on the vertical axis from the elbow with the wrist straight? The shoulder should be on a line directly over the arm swing. I know there are variations but my mentor pounded this into my head endlessly. I've thought of creating a moving diagram that shows this, although there may be some other artist who's done that and posted it on the net. With a diagram the nuances you mention could be more studied. Rat</div></div>Rattus -- I dont know about the "horizontal" bit, but a pendulum iznt really a Pendulum unless the elbow duznt moov (IMO). Dropping the elbow sort of after the qball iz leeving iz ok (iz still Pendulum, IMO), but mooving the elbow before or during the hit aint Pendulum (IMO).

I notice that many top snooker players dont uze a Pendulum. Many hav something out of line. If anything iz out of line, then it iz highly unlikely that they are uzing a Pendulum. Here i am talking about players that hav their elbow tucked in or poking out, off line.

But, just koz a player haz everthing "on line" duznt meen that he/she iz uzing a Pendulum. Koz, he/she might be dropping the elbow on the backswing etc (Pumping down), or raizing the elbow on the backswing etc (Pumping up) like me. But it wont be 100% pumping, it will be a bit of both, ie a Pumpulum aktion.

The Pendulum might be the best aktion to hav (preferably with everything in-line) and to be taught, followed by the Pumpulum with everything in-line (preferably). But mostly i hav been talking about me and my peculiar set of ingrained problemz, i wouldnt want my medicine in the drinking water (it iz addictiv anyhow).

I reckon that less than 1 in 5 players can see straight. If most playerz karnt see straight then how iz it possible to teach them to hav everything in line and to swing straight etc. The only way that players with crooked eyes kood shoot accuratly like that (everything in line) iz if they aim "wrong", ie aim off line. In my opinion the mind wont let u aim wrong, not for long. But i can see that introducing backhand pivot and/or fronthand pivot iz one way of helping the mind swallow the initial "aiming wrong". Most (all) threads here talk about BHP and FHP helping u with aiming for english, but i hav allwayz been amazed that nobody here haz ever had the faintest idea about uzing it az medicine for "aiming wrong".

So, madMac's peculiar medicine (tucking elbow back) iz really only another form of BHP and FHP. I kood do exaktly the same thing by having everything in-line and then introducing some BHP and/or FHP, uzing Pendulum or Pumpulum.

At least 4 out of 5 playerz hav to rely on "3 wrongz making a right", to get the ball in the hole, to make up for their crook eyes. They will hav a crooked aim, and might hav a crooked alignment, a crooked stroke, and a bad contact on the qball. They might not miss a pot, but they karnt hit the No15 (az a qball) cleanly and accuratly up and down the table, with force, with roll or deep skrew (like i can). The successfull pot iz the key thing, but, when they fail to keep improoving, someone tryz to get them to line-up straight and cue straight etc etc, and they are then doomed.

I reckon that a player would be better served if one helped him/her to identyfy hiz/her crooked aim, and identyfy hiz/her partly successfull home-made medicines, and then help look for a better medicine. But, what they get iz plastik-surgery or a limb-transplant.

Which leedz to a question, can a young player learn to see straight?? madMac.
madMac.

cushioncrawler
06-05-2008, 04:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....BTW CushionCrawler, I like your distinctions between stroke and pre-shot routine, I will keep them in mind. Clear thinking is always helpful...</div></div>Joe -- Yes, i think that most things are pre-shot rather than in-shot. For example, one billiards-snooker player used to take a number of pairs of shoes to matches. He would mezure the ht of the table, and then go back to the car and put on shoes with a certain heel ht. To him this affekted hiz shot, but it didnt affekt his stroke. In fakt, if he hadnt changed hiz shoes, now, that would hav affekted hiz stroke, he understood that. madMac.

Rail Rat
06-05-2008, 04:47 PM
Nothing wrong with self medicine Mac, i.e, discovery by trial and error employing different technique and using any device that can measure to some degree the elements of ones stroke. I was refering to the pretty well excepted (don't tell that to Reyes) standard practice of stance.

Having struggled for years contantly trying to find somethig I'm comfortable with is like the quest for the Holy Grail. I've changed my stance and stroke many times over the years and interestingly I've found my game kept changing too. I would gain one skill but lose another?

The best example of mechanics I can think of is Alison Fishers game. But as you note everyone is different and sighting the ball has its peculiarities per individual.

I posted a while back I had used video to spot flaws and that really helped but I think at some point in time I've fell back into what I've used befor when faced with a crucial shot in a tight game, its instinc!

I guess my point is, the closer you are to the ideal the better your mechanics will be or I should stress "should be." Taking crooked aiming and bent body structure into account I would suggest adjusting aim like tucking in the elbow or (I'm serious) a properly bent cue to allow for out of whack body structure. My wife is into Yoga and she showed me how a body can be out of alinement by attempting a simple exercise. This MUST effect everyones game to some degree.

cushioncrawler
06-05-2008, 05:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing wrong with self medicine Mac, i.e, discovery by trial and error employing different technique and using any device that can measure to some degree the elements of ones stroke. I was refering to the pretty well excepted (don't tell that to Reyes) standard practice of stance.

Having struggled for years contantly trying to find somethig I'm comfortable with is like the quest for the Holy Grail. I've changed my stance and stroke many times over the years and interestingly I've found my game kept changing too. I would gain one skill but lose another?

The best example of mechanics I can think of is Alison Fishers game. But as you note everyone is different and sighting the ball has its peculiarities per individual.

I posted a while back I had used video to spot flaws and that really helped but I think at some point in time I've fell back into what I've used befor when faced with a crucial shot in a tight game, its instinc!

I guess my point is, the closer you are to the ideal the better your mechanics will be or I should stress "should be." Taking crooked aiming and bent body structure into account I would suggest adjusting aim like tucking in the elbow or (I'm serious) a properly bent cue to allow for out of whack body structure. My wife is into Yoga and she showed me how a body can be out of alinement by attempting a simple exercise. This MUST effect everyones game to some degree.</div></div>But a flaw iznt necessarily a flaw, if it iz one of the 3 or 4 flawz that iz needed. Koz, like i sayd, only say 1 in 5 players hav non-crooked eyesight, so theze are the only playerz who shood be encouraged to stroke straight (ie zero flaw). Or, the 4 other playerz can be encouraged to stroke straight (zero flaw), but only if they uze BHP and/or FHP (koz they havnt really got zero flaw, their crooked eyesight iz there to stay). But mightbe there are playerz out there somewhere (1 in 100 perhaps) who dont feel sick when aiming wrong, in which case one could dispense with the BHP and FHP bizness.

So, pro'z who (rightly) pride themselves for being able to train playerz to stroke straight shood go out and look for playerz that can see straight (but dont shoot straight), and giv them their card. But, if bizness iz slow, theze same pro'z can turn their attention to playerz with crooked sight (if they dont shoot straight), but here they shood either help look for some better medicines, or, if they do head direktly for "straight stroking", they shood realize that BHP and/or FHP are virtually mandatory (unless the pupil haz a strong stomach).

Regarding that bizness about flaws being medicines, some medicines are poizonous in the wrong doses, and, some medicines arent needed at all (in which case they are real flaws), and some medicines are needed not koz of the original problem (ie crooked eyesight) but are needed az an antidote for one of the other poizons. So, a good instruktor would sort out all of the "good" poizonz, and the correkt doses, for eech pupil. madMac.

JoeW
06-06-2008, 07:16 AM
I tried tucking my elbow in last night and I can see the reason for it. It does work but it is perhaps more medicine than I can handle right now. I have spent a considerable amount of time learning to sight the cue stick like a rifle and to keep everything on one line. I play better this way and the new shorter stroke adds to my accuracy. I think that having a tendency to tuck the elbow is useful on the long draw shot and will work on tucking when a long stroke is needed.

I am beginning to come around to the idea that a long stroke is more of a detriment to my game. While it feels good it is harmful in many types of shots.

I think that Joe Tuckerís modified front hand backhand english works for me because I see it as a deviation from the intended stroke line.

I am interested in this tuck approach and now think that I need to go and study some snooker matches to see how they use it. I did not realize that some (many?) snooker players do not use the pendulum stroke.

BTW I looked up Ballarat, Australia on Google Maps. That is one beautiful city you live in. As usual, I am always impressed by how much the British have affected much of civilization. The same can be said for Vancover, BC. I had friends who live out that way and have seen many photos of RailRatís beautiful city. It is interesting that the three of us are very far apart in terms of distance. Long live the internet! The closest city to me is Pittsburg, PA and that too is a great place to call home.

Rail Rat
06-06-2008, 09:24 AM
I've never been in your neck of the woods Joe, or Mac's either. I hope to take my RV cross country this summer up the eastern seaboard. The southern Cross is a bit far but someday I hope to make it down there. If you're ever in BC you will love it I'm sure. Its just about the only place anywhere you can ski in the morning and hit the beach on the same day.

cushioncrawler
06-06-2008, 05:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried tucking my elbow in last night and I can see the reason for it. It does work but it is perhaps more medicine than I can handle right now. I have spent a considerable amount of time learning to sight the cue stick like a rifle and to keep everything on one line. I play better this way and the new shorter stroke adds to my accuracy. I think that having a tendency to tuck the elbow is useful on the long draw shot and will work on tucking when a long stroke is needed. I am beginning to come around to the idea that a long stroke is more of a detriment to my game. While it feels good it is harmful in many types of shots. I think that Joe Tuckerís modified front hand backhand english works for me because I see it as a deviation from the intended stroke line. I am interested in this tuck approach and now think that I need to go and study some snooker matches to see how they use it. I did not realize that some (many?) snooker players do not use the pendulum stroke. BTW I looked up Ballarat, Australia on Google Maps. That is one beautiful city you live in. As usual, I am always impressed by how much the British have affected much of civilization. The same can be said for Vancover, BC. I had friends who live out that way and have seen many photos of RailRatís beautiful city. It is interesting that the three of us are very far apart in terms of distance. Long live the internet! The closest city to me is Pittsburg, PA and that too is a great place to call home.</div></div>Joe -- Yes, i karnt beleev how different my stroke (shot) iz (needztabe) for forcefull deep skrew shots (ie i havta tuck-back moreso). And, i kan hit the No15 absolutely pure up'n'down the table for any/all types of shot. I dont get it. When muscles havta do things quicker and harder they will allwayz do their own thing -- karnt touch that.

Yes, snooker players on tv, the more ovem u see the more styles etc u see. I like the pumpulum, here the cue slides back'n'forward perfiktly level, hencely, the elbow must drop during the b/s and raize during the f/s, its a very pretty style, koz inevitably this sort of player haz a slowish long glide, very impressive, made for english billiardz really, watch Higgins (snooker). And watch Sethi (billiards).

Re sighting like a rifle, i guess that rifle sights dont like crooked eyes allso, koz u uze 2 eyes i think.

Yes, i grew up in ballarat in the 50'z and 60'z, and came back in 2007. Aktually, i/we hav a new joint on 13acres in the bush, about 30 minutes drive, and i now hav my own 12' table at home for the first time, so i spend allmost all day experimenting (and writing in my diary), english billiards mostly, in fakt i hav been doing that allmost daily for 9 years (ie since i stopped working), and allmost daily since 1986 anyhow. I am going to write 4 to 10 books on billiards. Now u know all about me. madMac.

Rail Rat
06-06-2008, 05:57 PM
I tried the elbow tuck and I could'nt make a ball. However my follow thru is very straight so I have no problem there. I can see it working if you are consistantly undercutting, but I would think it might be the stance also.

I had a pro tell me this... "When in your stance pretend your body is completely dead (brain excluded) and cannot move except for your LOWER ARM. That nothing else can move not even your wrist. Let the cue lie in your hand relaxed with just a bit of grip. Now with your lower arm hanging free, feather back and forth from the elbow, pause on your final backswing then stroke the shot staying frozen until the shot drops." At first I found this difficult because consentrating on being dead took away from concentrating on the shot. But after a while it just came natural and I could focus in on aiming. Thats the way I play now and whenever I miss I know I forgot to play dead!

cushioncrawler
06-06-2008, 10:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried the elbow tuck and I could'nt make a ball. However my follow thru is very straight so I have no problem there. I can see it working if you are consistantly undercutting, but I would think it might be the stance also. I had a pro tell me this... "When in your stance pretend your body is completely dead (brain excluded) and cannot move except for your LOWER ARM. That nothing else can move not even your wrist. Let the cue lie in your hand relaxed with just a bit of grip. Now with your lower arm hanging free, feather back and forth from the elbow, pause on your final backswing then stroke the shot staying frozen until the shot drops." At first I found this difficult because consentrating on being dead took away from concentrating on the shot. But after a while it just came natural and I could focus in on aiming. Thats the way I play now and whenever I miss I know I forgot to play dead!</div></div>The main (only) reezon i uze the tuck-back iz koz this automatically givz the cue nearnuff the true line (or the line that works for me) at the end of the backswing. The lazer helps show this. But if a player iz right-eye-dominant then he/she might hav some luck with a "tuck-out" rather than a "tuck-in" (but it all dependz).

Re keeping everything still, a (standard) lazer of course karnt help show this. My madMate asked me once to check, from in front, whether he woz keeping hiz elbow perfiktly still during the shot. I sayd that it woz mooving up and down a bit. But when i checked from the side, i saw that the elbow woz aktually rock steady. Elbow meat'n'bone iznt az simple az u think. He sayd that he uzually uzez a mirror to check this elbow thing (from the side i would say).

A pauze probably duznt work for everyone -- one other thing, the pauze helps me to stop lifting my head (so much).

Do u uze a bent cue?? madMac.

JoeW
06-07-2008, 06:25 AM
Cushioncrawler said, ďRe sighting like a rifle, i guess that rifle sights dont like crooked eyes allso, koz u uze 2 eyes i think.Ē

I learned to shoot with an M1 rifle when I was 17 years old and in the US Marine Corps. At the time they taught us to leave your left eye open while you sight the rifle with your right eye (I am right handed and right eye dominant) . When I was told to shoot like this it sounded like an impossible task. With practice on the range I learned that I could hit an 8- 10Ē bullís eye from 500 yards with a degree of consistency that made me a pretty good rifleman. I learned that one can keep both eyes open and look with one eye.

I have no doubt that my left eye continues to use peripheral vision and this is useful for estimating cue ball roll after contact. However, my primary, concentrated focus of attention is with only my right eye. This does work well for me as I can see the lines and the target quite well. Unlike many players I cannot play left handed as I have very little fine motor coordination with my left hand.

I have observed that some of the top world class professionals are opposite eye dominant and have to place their opposite eye over the cue stick for the few time that they need rifle sighting. This observation leads me to think that for some reason these truly excellent players in billiards, snooker and pool use their brains differently than those who are same eye dominant. I have also noticed that many of the good players that I know personally are left handed or cross eye dominant. I forget the name of the Irish fellow who is currently a top snooker player. He swaps hands depending on the shot. This is a form of brain organization that completely escapes me (and most others).

Perhaps being opposite eye dominant or left handed is an impetus to try harder or concentrate more. I suspect it is a slightly different brain organization.

I can see where tucking oneís elbow is useful in any case as the tuck is more about straightening out the swing than it is about sighting.

Rail Rat
06-07-2008, 10:46 AM
Re the pause:

Yes, whenever I make a deliberate pause it helps me to focus in instead of rushing the stroke, thus I don't lift my head or throw my shoulder up. I find it hard to not move on a power shot which I see a lot of players do. The tendency is to want to put the body behind it, but actually a power stroke does'nt require that much power it's just a longer stroke and probably with a lot of english (side.) The pause can be a long, or so short its hardly noticable, but it should be there. This is a subject that has caused controversy on the forum in the past. Even Dr Dave was not sold on the pause.

JJFSTAR
06-07-2008, 01:28 PM
Yea Rail Rat I am against the pause also but the reason is that I watched this Mike Page video. I am sold on the slower than normal feel stroke just before the delivery stroke. I recommend trying it out. I would be willing to bet that most players would be split evenly with the pause, slower last feel stroke and identical last feel stroke to delivery stroke. If anyone knows Allison we can ask her why her pause woks so well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1x...s/new/NVB-5.htm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1xMA&eurl=http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVB-5.htm)

Rail Rat
06-07-2008, 01:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea Rail Rat I am against the pause also but the reason is that I watched this Mike Page video. I am sold on the slower than normal feel stroke just before the delivery stroke. I recommend trying it out. I would be willing to bet that most players would be split evenly with the pause, slower last feel stroke and identical last feel stroke to delivery stroke. If anyone knows Allison we can ask her why her pause woks so well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1x...s/new/NVB-5.htm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1xMA&eurl=http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVB-5.htm)

</div></div>

Fran and other women players read this post often and of course they know Allison well so they may comment.

As for me my background is snooker, and in snooker you are taught a very deffinate stance and stroke. It's what defines snooker play. The game is very difficult and requires a degree of technical skills to play it well. Even the most minute mis-alinement will destroy your game so you must master these basics. The pause is just another way to help you focus befor the final forward stroke. That's not to say pool does'nt require technical skills its just that in snooker there's less room for error.

I watched the video and it seems to me Mike does'nt like the pause because it may mask other problems. But I can only say that if you have these flaws then nothing else will work either.

The bottom line is Pool is a different game, instead of potting difficulty and safety play its more about position play and aggresiveness so a faster stroke is more comfortable to some players. But Mike has to note that its used by a lot of top players.

JoeW
06-07-2008, 02:19 PM
What I like about the pause has to do with sighting and eye movement. First there is no reason that a player has to rapidly move their eye back and forth between the CB and the OB. So I tend to look at the CB when the tip is near the CB and I slowly change my focus as the stick is drawn back and look at the OB. At the back end of the stroke I can sight the whole length of the cue stick to the OB . Something like a bow and arrow. The pause lets me see that everything is on line.

I also think that the pause helps all of the muscles coordinate for the final foward stroke.

I would be quite interested in learning what Allison has to say about the pause as she is definitely the expert. I thought that her use came from playing snooker.

Rail Rat
06-07-2008, 02:32 PM
Agreed on all those points Joe. I think the pause really comes down to length of time. I take about a one second pause. If you study the pool videos most of players stop even if for only a split second before going thru.

Fran Crimi
06-08-2008, 09:15 AM
Hey Mac,

Lots of very interesting posts here. I admit I got about half-way down and ran out of time, but I just wanted to share a tip about trouble shooting your stroke. It's a very simple technique and it can tell you if you're doing something strange during your stroke. When you get down into your stance, take a look at your back hand and note where your knuckles are positioned. They should be along the side your cue. Then after you shoot, freeze your position in your follow-through and look at them again. Have they changed position on the cue? Did they wind up underneath it? Try to keep your knuckles at basically the same place all the way through your stroke. If you find it hard to do, you could be twisting your cue.

It's probably a lot easier than using a laser pointer.

Fran

cushioncrawler
06-08-2008, 05:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Mac, Lots of very interesting posts here. I admit I got about half-way down and ran out of time, but I just wanted to share a tip about trouble shooting your stroke. It's a very simple technique and it can tell you if you're doing something strange during your stroke. When you get down into your stance, take a look at your back hand and note where your knuckles are positioned. They should be along the side your cue. Then after you shoot, freeze your position in your follow-through and look at them again. Have they changed position on the cue? Did they wind up underneath it? Try to keep your knuckles at basically the same place all the way through your stroke. If you find it hard to do, you could be twisting your cue. It's probably a lot easier than using a laser pointer. Fran</div></div>Hi Fran -- Yes, i discovered a few weeks ago that i woz twisting my grip clockwize on the stroke. I reckon that this sort of flaw can be a "real" flaw, or perhaps for some players its a "medicine".

But for me the twisting woz a giant monster (tautology alert). Koz, for months i hav been uzing monster tips (ie grotesque). Theze tips were slightly oversize for the ferrule, and i sanded a flatish side (or two) in the tips -- the flatish side woz meant to make the tip act like it woz thrice the size (say 30mm). Koz, i reckoned that big tips (ie very fat shafts) were very forgiving for some shots (for some players). So, i thort that my monster-tip would giv me the best of both worlds -- it would hav low squirt (koz the shaft iz thin) for when u wanted soft skrew etc, yet would be very forgiving (for bad contact on qball etc) when u wanted accuracy. And, it woz. But, i woznt really getting the consistency from day to day that i wanted (12' table here). And then i found the reezon.

When doing my standard qdrill of hitting the No15 up'n'down the table, i often check the qtip chalk-mark to see how far off center i had unintentionally hit. I found that the flattish qtip mark woznt horizontal, it woz allwayz turned clockwize a bit, or a lot. So, all of a sudden, my flattish forgiving tip, while dumbing-down Flaw-A, magnyfyd Flaw-B.

Flaw-B iz an eye-opener. By twisting the flattish tip, it givz me a way-off-center hit. If i were uzing a round 30mm tip i would havta perhaps aim say 5mm off-center to get the same sort of rezult (skrew shots here). So, Flaw-A iz where i unintentionally hit say 3mm off-center, so i create a flattish tip that in effekt reduces this to say 1mm. But i hav opened up Pandora'z Box, and out pops Flaw-B which makes me in effekt hit 5mm off-center.

But, here, madMac might hav found the most powerfull medicine in the history of Qsport, a new Qpenicillin.

madMac realized that when uzed flat-side-down, when hitting with topspin, Flaw-B woz a medicine for madMac, here it did correct the unintentional left-of-center contact (think about it). But, here, a 5mm dose woz too much. For topspin, due to other faktors, madMac only needed a 1mm dose.

madMac realized that by initially holding the flat-face a little too much anti-clockwize, madMac could get a nice horizontal qtip-chalkmark on the No15 ball. Now we hav zero Flaw-B, and Flaw-A iz now reduced from 3mm to 1mm like it shood.

madMac realized that by initially holding the flat-face a little moreso anti-clockwize, madMac could get a qtip chalkmark that woz rotated past horizontal the other way, ie Flaw-B now "helped" (for skrew shots). madMac could "dial-in" any amount of "left" or "right" that madMac wanted. And, not just to hit straight, no, madMac could get smallish off-straight pots by aiming fullball but uzing the dialled-in "twist" to giv the needed angle.

This Chapter in madMac's diary iz still in progress. madMac.

Fran Crimi
06-09-2008, 06:37 AM
Look Mac, I'm not saying that twisting doesn't have it's benefits on an advanced level and when done intentionally to accomplish a paticular result. However, I strongly recommend that twisting should not be a part of your normal stroking routine.

I think your experiment was interesting in that it can explain how some people can manage to pocket balls with a twisting stroke. But common sense pretty much dictates that already, right? If you twist your back hand and the tip winds up at a different place on the cue ball than where you initally aimed, then either your initial sighting process was a function of faulty vision in which you compensate by twisting, or you are subconsciously building in an aiming compensation to allow for a flawed stroking process. I think the latter more frequently occurs.

However,I hope you're not thinking of building in a compensation for yourself. I think you would be doing yourself a disservice.


Fran

Qtec
06-09-2008, 08:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am prezently fixing my stroke with the help of a lazer. Its a $10 red dot pointer -- i araldited it onto a 120mm bit of 30mm pvc pipe -- i sawed a wide slot along the pipe, and a few shorter slots, so that i can slip it down any of my cues down to near the end of the butt, pointing backwards. U pozition it and turn it such that it sits under your grip (fingers or palm), with the lazer under or over the butt, but such that u kan press the little button (with palm or fingers) to turn it on.

I shine it onto a target (W) stuck on the wall behind the table. I get set for a shot straight up the table, aiming at a target (T) there, and freeze and look back at where the red dot iz aiming on W. Then i freeze at the end of my backswing, and check again on W.

I found that for my current natural backswing the cue/aim swings to the right of T during the backswing, and up, which i knew. This little hoik helps me to shoot straight, koz i naturally aim left of T at the start. But, lately, i hav been over-hoiking, and even my short-range shots hav gone sour.

Anyhow, the lazer iz helping me to find a new B/S etc. Plus, when i am testing this new stroke, hitting up & down the table, i am uzing a No15 pool ball, to help check if i am putting any unwanted spin on the ball -- and to help check where i am contacting the No15 (i check the chalk mark). And, i am finding that i need a slightly different style for skrew-shots, compared to roll-shots.

The beauty of the little pvc-lazer iz that i can fit it to any of my cues. Koz, your stroke alignment will of course depend on the taper of the cue, and any bend, and even the balance. And (in my case), the stiffness of the shaft, koz, i sometimes uze a style where i forcefully press the cue-shaft down (or left) into my bridge, which puts a bend in the cue (and aim).

Last week i woz playing around with a different setup. I put a mirror on the back wall, and i watched the reflekted dot dancing on the front wall (just right of and abov my aim) during the whole stroke. I had to offset the mirror so that my elbow didnt block the dot, and i leaned the mirror down a bit so that the dot woz lower down in my vizion not too far from my aim.

I can point the pvc-lazer forwards, but here my chin gets in the way unless i hold it higher, and a loop-bridge wouldnt work either (i uze a vee-bridge). U can point it at the Qball. And u can point it at a mirror laying flat on the table and reflekting the dot onto the front wall. But the prezent model iz a bit limited for some tests koz it iznt perfiktly aligned on the cue (ie on the pvc), some sort of adjustor would be good here.

If u dont like the feel of the thickness of the pvc-lazer under your grip, u can just push it back to the end of the butt, but then u will havta uze a clip of some sort to turn the button "on", or u kood wire-up a seperat small switch that sat under your palm or finger.

I dont know if this pvc-lazer would help anyone more than one of the (3??) lazers that u can prezently buy. madMac. </div></div>


Forget the laser, find a good instructor and save yourself from a lifetime of frustration.
There are very few people who can train themselves to be good players and coincidently they ARE good players- basicallt because they instinctively know the right way to play. Natural players.

Most club players think they are doing something wrong when they miss a relatively simple ball. They think 'oh , what did I do wrong?.....Oh, thats it, I was standing like this when i should have been ....etc etc etc ".ie they look for a reason.
Its quite possible that they are doing all the right things but are just not proficient enough to make the shot all the time!
Imagining a fault thats not there and they trying to fix it can lead to a road filled with confusion and despair.

Do yourself a favor. Get some help from qualified instructor. Don't listen to slightly better players in poolhalls. 99% will give bad advice. They will tell you how THEY play a shot, they can't tell YOU how YOU can make the shot.

Qtec

Curdog
06-09-2008, 09:28 AM
Fran, this tip helped me a bunch. I have converted from right-handed to lefty because of some neurological problems I was experiencing. The bottom line was that I was progressing well, but when I missed, it was almost always to the right. Often I would also hit the CB further to the right than intended. Couldn't figure out what the heck was going on. Than I read your post.
What I did was changed my grip. What I'm doing is making sure the fleshy area between the thumb and forefinger are at the TOP of my grip. It seems like this one minor change has largely eliminated the mistakes I spoke of.
Hope this continues to work and just isn't the result of intense concentration with the new approach. This change does appear to bring my knucles more to the side of the cue. Previously my knuckles were very low , almost under, the side of the cue.
Thanks for the tip.

Fran Crimi
06-09-2008, 10:49 AM
Glad to hear it helped. I bet you've got a dominant right eye and now that you've switched to lefty, you find yourself crooking your arm and hand under your body to bring your cue under your dominant eye.

The remedy is to do just what you're doing. Straighten out that back hand. The rest will fall into place and your head will find it's proper position over the cue.

Remember this: Always bring your head to your cue, not your cue to your head. It's a little esoteric but if you think about it a bit it makes sense.

Fran

JoeW
06-09-2008, 10:54 AM
Fran said, "Remember this: Always bring your head to your cue, not your cue to your head. It's a little esoteric but if you think about it a bit it makes sense."

That is exactly what I do and it is good to hear from a real expert that one piece of my stumbling around is as it should be. Thanks.

Fran Crimi
06-09-2008, 01:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fran said, "Remember this: Always bring your head to your cue, not your cue to your head. It's a little esoteric but if you think about it a bit it makes sense."

That is exactly what I do and it is good to hear from a real expert that one piece of my stumbling around is as it should be. Thanks.
</div></div>

Hey Joe, Thanks. I find myself saying the same thing when I read some of the psych stuff that you post. Once in awhile I get it right and it feels good to have it verified by an expert.

Fran

cushioncrawler
06-09-2008, 03:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look Mac, I'm not saying that twisting doesn't have it's benefits on an advanced level and when done intentionally to accomplish a paticular result. However, I strongly recommend that twisting should not be a part of your normal stroking routine. I think your experiment was interesting in that it can explain how some people can manage to pocket balls with a twisting stroke. But common sense pretty much dictates that already, right? If you twist your back hand and the tip winds up at a different place on the cue ball than where you initally aimed, then either your initial sighting process was a function of faulty vision in which you compensate by twisting, or you are subconsciously building in an aiming compensation to allow for a flawed stroking process. I think the latter more frequently occurs. However,I hope you're not thinking of building in a compensation for yourself. I think you would be doing yourself a disservice. Fran</div></div>Fran -- Yes i tryd intentional twisting after i saw an Indian billiards champ (and former snooker champ) doing it on tv, but of course it woz a failure. madMac.

jt10ball
06-10-2008, 07:35 PM
Let's vote. Does this look helpful or harmful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD4o92GwWfU

I truly wish the price was lower and hopefully in the future it will be, soon as I find a company that can mass produce them with the same quality they're currently being made with. The price is about the same as 2-4 hrs with a qualified instructor (if you can find a truly qualified one) but this coach stays with you. It also comes with the instruction dvd that is pretty informative.

JJFSTAR
06-11-2008, 09:03 AM
I want one of those

Joeyjay
06-11-2008, 09:50 AM
With all I have to learn, now its a twist stroke. Everyone has been telling me not to do that?

Rail Rat
06-11-2008, 10:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyjay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all I have to learn, now its a twist stroke. Everyone has been telling me not to do that? </div></div>

Stay with the basics right now, you can play very well with just that.

1. Hold the cue with a relaxed grip. Your whole body should be frozen but relaxed, not tense. Only your lower arm from the elbow should move,

2. Feather your warm up strokes until you feel you are on target.

3. Pull back slowly on your final stroke, hold, then shoot straight thru.

4. after striking remain frozen with your cue pointing right where you aimed until the ball drops.

With just this basic stroke action you can beat many players. Everything after this is just practice to learn pace, spin, follow and draw.

I've been playing for years, whenever I'm off my game I go back and practice the basics. Rail Rat

Joeyjay
06-12-2008, 04:57 PM
No no no, I wanna twist thru that shot, put on extra English, what do i do, just whip the wrist right on impact? How come that aint in any books?

HALHOULE
06-12-2008, 05:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joeyjay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No no no, I wanna twist thru that shot, put on extra English, what do i do, just whip the wrist right on impact? How come that aint in any books? </div></div>

ARE YOU KIDDING

HALHOULE
06-12-2008, 05:41 PM
BECAUSE IT DOES NOT BELONG THERE.

Joeyjay
06-13-2008, 09:06 AM
Ok Hal, you got me, of course I was kidding. I was trying to suck one of them in. That twist thru the ball was something nobody understood. They saw Hoppe doing it and thought it was some inside secret to get extra English. Sliding off a ball never puts more on, it puts less on. It's like a boxing punch, which puts the most power on, a glancing blow, or a direct blow to the nose? Use your common sense here guys. Driving thru the ball, down the line puts more on.

Hoppe held the cue with only one finger, The teacup grip, his index finger and thumb, and he had this twist, or slide off right of the ball on his follow through. It was pronounced.

That is why Ralph added the 2nd finger, and Mosconi the 3rd, and todays pros all 4 on the cue, that stops the twist. They also now lock down the upper webbing between the thumb and index finger on the top of the cue which really takes out all the twist. The old timers had a big gap there, you could run your thumb thru. That allowed for a lot of twist, in hard strokes, using a lot of English, which all 3-cushion players like Hoppe did.

I played with Hoppes grip from the 40's up to 1993. I could do some wicked things with it. I still use it on some Artistic shots when I want to grip and rip it and accuracy is not the prime object. I use it on my jump cue.

I had to practice 4 hours a day just to keep the slide off twist out of it. Until I acquired the AD Moore thesis, and studied it, and the detailed anaysis of Hoppes swing, did I realize that he knew it was there, and he just allowed it, played it, and in time, his hand eye adjusted for it. I wish I had acquired that knowledge years ago, the pain that would have saved me.

I tried in vain to explain this to Feeney, but he would not listen. It was the only thing, that I did not agree with Don on. Everything else, Don was spot on.

Eric.
06-13-2008, 09:48 AM
http://groups.google.com/group/larryguningerisaliar


Eric

Hass
06-13-2008, 09:54 AM
Why are you making more stuff up? Cmon man, give it a rest.

av84fun
06-14-2008, 03:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea Rail Rat I am against the pause also but the reason is that I watched this Mike Page video. I am sold on the slower than normal feel stroke just before the delivery stroke. I recommend trying it out. I would be willing to bet that most players would be split evenly with the pause, slower last feel stroke and identical last feel stroke to delivery stroke. If anyone knows Allison we can ask her why her pause woks so well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1x...s/new/NVB-5.htm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1xMA&eurl=http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVB-5.htm)


</div></div>

I do. She pauses...in no particular order:

1. To insure against short stroking often accompanied by a jerky transition.

2. To relieve muscle tension just before the critical shot stroke.

3. To allow for a specific, conscious re-focus of the eye back to the cb contact point...free of the constant distraction caused by a continuously moving cue.


4. To give the mind a moment to make a final decision as to the pace of the stroke.

In general, she does it for the same reasons as an archer does it (bow and arrow, not Johnny (0:

Regards,
Jim

Rail Rat
06-14-2008, 03:41 PM
All in all the pause sets up a more controlled action.

Players who have played for years with a quick forward stroke have difficulty trying a more pronounced pause. Maybe they could shoot better if they learned it?... I don't know. Probably not.

Jim Fyurik the golfer with the wild backswing learned the traditional swing last year and there was a big write up on it in Sports illustrated. But in watching the Open today I see he's right back with the dipsy doodle!

Go figure.