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View Full Version : To APA Players Re: Strategy for Line-Up



Michelle
08-08-2002, 09:49 AM
I've been playing APA leagues for several years, have been the team captain many seasons, and I feel pretty comfortable with my knowledge of the league.

My original team always played by a certain strategy. We would try to be the ones who "put up" first. We feel that by putting up first, we are then in control of the 4th AND 5th matches. The reasoning behind this seems quite simple to us...by the end of the 3rd match, we pretty much know who is left to play on the other team (who is still present and what skill levels they can play without going over 23) and we know who we have left. So, when the other team puts up the 4th player, we can make the choice of who we want to match up against them, AND we know who they have left to match up against our 5th player. Everyone tries to win at least 2 of the first 3 matches, but if that does not happen, then we felt like we could counter-act well enough in the last two and still have a really good shot at taking the night 3-2.

Well, i got into an argument over this strategy with my current team's captain last night. He swears that by letting the other team put up first, that we have 3 chances to match who we want up to their choices. He says my concept of "controlling" the last two matches doesn't even exist, and that if you win 2 of the first three, then you are almost sure to take the night at least 3-2.
(Of course last night, we lost 4-1 using his method...the other team put up 1st and 3rd, and the ppl we matched up both lost...he put me up second, and I was the only one who won...but anyway...)

So, I am wondering what you APA players out there think about this. Do you use either of these strategies, or something else we haven't thought about. I know there are always certain circumstances that cause you to change your general strategy, but my strategy worked for my old team very consistently for many seasons.

Wally_in_Cincy
08-08-2002, 11:49 AM
Howdy Michelle,

I've seen it done both ways and either way works.

90% of the teams in our league will let the other team put up first.
I am one of the few captains in our league who will occasionally put up first. I would probably do it more often but my teammates think it's stupid to do that and I just don't want to listen to their griping.
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"Letting the other team put up first":
Advantages:
It allows you to choose the matchup 3 out of 5 times. It's a percentage thing. For instance if they put up a 6 I'll have the option of putting a good 3 on him. Many times the 3 will win, and even if he doesn't they've wasted a 6.


Disadvantages:
It allows them to dictate the first match. I'm sure you have a player who plays well leading off and players who play miserably leading off. We sometimes like to lead off with our 3 and then play four 5's. If she wins that's great, if not the pressure is off her because we'll pick her up.

"Putting up first"
Advantage:
In a playoff or tourney it allows you to choose your last player. If you have a hammer who's good under pressure that's who you want playing last.

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I agree with WW, I like to lead off with a good 4 or a good 3. That's hard for the other team to match up with.

BTW, love your internet store. Great service and great prices. Kudos to y'all.

Michelle
08-08-2002, 12:04 PM
BTW, love your internet store. Great service and great prices. Kudos to y'all. <hr></blockquote>

Gracias, mi amigo! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Doctor_D
08-08-2002, 12:07 PM
Good afternoon:

Hawley's; the best Internet Store, with the absolute best service, on the Planet!!!

Dr. D.

SpiderMan
08-08-2002, 12:13 PM
He is correct. For example, if we take two (imaginary) teams that have identical players, no luck and no sandbagging (so that the best player wins), the team that puts up second should win three matches.

Luck, uneven teams, sandbagging, and individual performance are all factors that will alter the outcome, but putting up second is still another factor that is in your favor if you win the toss.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan

SPetty
08-08-2002, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> BTW, love your internet store. Great service and great prices. Kudos to y'all. <hr></blockquote>I used to love their internet store, but the company I work for is blocking it now. I can get to other pool stuff selling sites fine, just not Hawleys.

Doesn't Hawleys have another URL? Something like poolstore or something like that? Anyone remember that? Thanks.

Michelle
08-08-2002, 12:28 PM
Susan,
We have hawleys.com, billiardstore.com (which are the same content) and gatesbilliards.com, which is a totally different site. Try those and let me know if you are still having problems...
btw...why is our site blocked at your company???

08-08-2002, 12:28 PM

Wally_in_Cincy
08-08-2002, 12:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> Most of the teams here (DC,MD,VA) put up strong 3s or 4s first. If you don't, the opposition will more than likely 'dump' a 2 or 3 on your strong player and crush you in the later matches. I find it strange that in another area of the country 90% may put up second.<hr></blockquote>

So what's to keep them from dumping a 2 or 3 on you in the second match?

Michelle
08-08-2002, 12:43 PM
I agree Whitewolf...of course, my old team, and even current team, are lucky to have a strong 3 a strong 4 and a pretty good 6. We would usually lead off with the 3, and save the 6 and strong 4 for the end if possible. That way, the 4 could maybe take a 7 at the end if needed, or you knew the 6 was going to win and the 4 had a pretty good chance too.

Last night, with putting up 2nd, we got bombed.
They put up a strong 3, we countered with a 4 and we lost.
I went up next (I'm a good 4) they wasted a 3 on me and I won.
They then put up a very strong 4, we put up a 6 (who had a bad match) and lost. So we were down 2-1. We had a 2 and a 6 left to play.
We put up our 2, they played a 4 against her and we lost.
They saved a very good 5 for our 6, and we lost again.

Of course, my captain doesn't take certain things into consideration sometimes, like how much a player may have had to drink by the end of the night /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif, that sometimes certain females on our team play better against guys than girls (sad, but true), and then he kept coaching our 2 to do things she is not capable of. *shrugs*

*sigh* I don't want to be the captain because I don't have the time, but my captain does silly things sometimes!

Wally_in_Cincy
08-08-2002, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Michelle:</font><hr>

*sigh* I don't want to be the captain because I don't have the time, but my captain does silly things sometimes! <hr></blockquote>

LOL. That's the conundrum isn't it? If you're captain you have to deal with the grief. If you're not you have to put up with the captain making stupid matchups LOL.

BTW if your 6's would have played like 6's they would have won /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

08-08-2002, 01:12 PM

Wally_in_Cincy
08-08-2002, 01:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> "So what's to keep them from dumping a 2 or 3 on you in the second match?" Answer, don't put up your 5,6, or 7 at this point if they come out with a 2 or 3. This is gravy time for you. Put up your better 2 or better 3, or another 4 if you have one LOL.

As a general rule: don't get put in a position where you put have to put up strong and they can dump on you. Some teams at Vegas started out strong out of the box so that they could take the first 3 matches and be out. Not so smart in my opinion. <hr></blockquote>

I agree. That is stupid. We have a playoff match tonight and my girlfriend is trying to convince me to come out of the box strong. No f***ing way.

If I can't convince her I'll just say "Would you like to be captain?" LOL. That will put that argument to bed real fast /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

Michelle
08-08-2002, 01:43 PM
And this is why I like putting up first...so I don't get to the last 2 matches, be down 2-1, and have a 3 and a 7 left.
There is no hope then.

SPetty
08-08-2002, 01:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Michelle:</font><hr>SPetty,
We have hawleys.com, billiardstore.com (which are the same content) and gatesbilliards.com, which is a totally different site. Try those and let me know if you are still having problems...
btw...why is our site blocked at your company??? <hr></blockquote>Hi Michelle,

Billiardstore.com is the one I was trying to remember. I have no idea why the site would be blocked. Can't get to gatesbilliards.com from here either. Getting a message like:
"Network Security
Access to the desired web page is not permitted.
If you feel this location should not be blocked,
please submit a request with your business justification."

Can't really think of a business reason that I should be allowed to wander around Hawley's from work!

SPetty ~~ missing my old APA team and captain...

SpiderMan
08-08-2002, 02:03 PM
No - if you have that strong 4, it's still more of an advantage to have the other team put up first. Then you get an additonal bit of information to decide whether this is the right match for your strong 4, or whether you don't want to spend him on their first player (who may be a victory for you without using your hole card).

Think about it - if they put up first, there's still nothing to prevent you from using the "strong 4" you would have put up, but in this case you also have the opportunity to change your mind if their choice causes you to do so.

So you have every opportunity you would have had, plus a little more. Putting up second is never a disadvantage, because you can always field the player you would have put up anyway.

SpiderMan

08-08-2002, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good afternoon:

Hawley's; the best Internet Store, with the absolute best service, on the Planet!!!

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>

another post with zero content from D. It is not mandatory to respond to every post with simple acknowledgements. follow your own words "lead, follow or get out of the way". happy birthday D. you are welcome in advance. no need to post a thank you. Bill's friend

Doctor_D
08-08-2002, 02:41 PM
Good afternoon:

Why not come out of the closet and introduce yourself. There is no shame in being a friend of Bill W., is there?

Dr. D.

08-08-2002, 02:45 PM

SpiderMan
08-08-2002, 02:57 PM
There's nothing worse than playing a strong 4. Have to beat him 5 to 1. Problem is, he could be a lurking hotshot if he recently joined and just hasn't moved up yet. Even a 7 starts as a 4. I never lose to a 5 or 6, but a 4 beat me a couple of months ago.

SpiderMan

Michelle
08-08-2002, 03:02 PM
*nods* I have beaten many a 7 in my time...that 5-2 match up is a B%&amp;$#!!

SpiderMan
08-08-2002, 03:12 PM
Michelle,

I don't think we have ever played. Do I look familiar? I'm also the guy who came in one Saturday this spring looking for tips that another guy had just cleaned you out of.

If we do meet, though, no need to flip - I'll let you put up first /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

SpiderMan

heater451
08-08-2002, 04:08 PM
Your question reminds me of a story/logic problem about chariot races. . . .(If anyone knows the details, please help out).

The story goes that two Roman generals (or something like that) match up their chariot teams to run three races, and best-of-three takes the match.

The generals are pretty even for each race, in that they each have a fast chariot team, a medium-fast team, and a slow team for each race.

The winning general runs his slowest team against the opponents fastest, losing the first race. He then runs his fastest team against the medium-fast team, and then his medium-fast team against his opponents slow team. This ensures a 2-1 win, and the general takes his spoils.

I always thought it was interesting, since I think the 'natural' thing to do would have been to run each team 'heads-up' (fast-fast, med-med, slow-slow).

Take from it what you can. . . .



=======================

Doctor_D
08-08-2002, 04:12 PM
Good evening:

Sun Tzu, the Art of War, addresses similar Tactical and Strategic concepts. Interesting reading, whether you are the Commanding General of Military unit or a Corporate CEO.

Dr. D.

Michelle
08-08-2002, 04:14 PM
Hercules tips??

SpiderMan
08-08-2002, 05:59 PM
No, they were original Schon replacments. I came in looking to pick them up for a job, and the customer beat me there and bought them all. After a minute of conversation, you and I realized the circular goings-on.

SpiderMan

bluewolf
08-08-2002, 06:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good evening:

Sun Tzu, the Art of War, addresses similar Tactical and Strategic concepts. Interesting reading, whether you are the Commanding General of Military unit or a Corporate CEO.

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>

I must be dense. I dont get this. Sick in dc experiencing left brain shut-down

bluewolf

bluewolf
08-08-2002, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good afternoon:

Why not come out of the closet and introduce yourself. There is no shame in being a friend of Bill W., is there?

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>

absolutely. i have been one for 11 years ie- the personal not religious reason i do not drink

bluewolf

Doctor_D
08-08-2002, 06:15 PM
Good evening:

I have GREAT respect for the Friends of Bill W., for I personally know many of them, and all that they have accomplished in their life.

This individual, "Bill's Friend" appears hell bent on taking pot shots at me from time to time. Oh well, the children must play.

Dr. D.

Doctor_D
08-08-2002, 06:17 PM
Good evening:

Amazon.com has the title, very inexpensive, you might want to read it once your brain is ready for some heavy duty Tactical and Strategic challenges. I have several editions of these books and read them at least once each year.

Dr. D.

bluewolf
08-08-2002, 06:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good evening:

Amazon.com has the title, very inexpensive, you might want to read it once your brain is ready for some heavy duty Tactical and Strategic challenges. I have several editions of these books and read them at least once each year.

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>

dr d,

what does it have to do about this topic? that is what confused me. i am just confused, that is all.

as far as strategies, is it like bruce lee/spiritual tactics or more left brainy and detailed.

here are my strategies

observe the enemy without reacting
playing dumb really helps too
let enemy hang self
declare war and go for the jugglar

bluewolf

bluewolf
08-08-2002, 06:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good evening:

I have GREAT respect for the Friends of Bill W., for I personally know many of them, and all that they have accomplished in their life.

This individual, "Bill's Friend" appears hell bent on taking pot shots at me from time to time. Oh well, the children must play.

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>

hmm. he must not done all the steps with complete abandon

bluewolf

Doctor_D
08-08-2002, 06:57 PM
Good evening:

One of the basic principles of Sun Tzu the Art of War is that all battles are won or lost before they have been faught. These writings address tactics and strategies as they apply to your opponents regardless of whether the opponent is stronger, weaker or evenly matched.

These concepts are as applicable to business and life as they are on the battle field.

Dr. D.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-08-2002, 07:47 PM
Maybe the rules have changed since I last was an APA member, but the league operator made me a 7 on MY very first nite. He was a very strong 7 and had never (even till this day) ever beaten me at any pool game. I just had his number.. and he knew it.

cuechick
08-08-2002, 07:56 PM
I agree with you Michelle. Having Captained a team to the Nationals (where all this does little good since you don't really know who your playing) and having won our division 6 or 7 times, I like putting up 1st and controlling the last two matches. I have had it work both ways, by playing the match ups right is the key.
Once I was in Vegas for the BCA and could not be there for the 1st round of the APA play offs. So my team mate called me before each round and I told her who to play. We won! I believe stradegy is everything.
I am now just a 'player' on 2 different teams, and am happy to say I don't care! What ever they do is fine! I am just there to have a good time...and kick some butt /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
08-09-2002, 06:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: heater451:</font><hr> Your question reminds me of a story/logic problem about chariot races. . . .(If anyone knows the details, please help out).

The story goes that two Roman generals (or something like that) match up their chariot teams to run three races, and best-of-three takes the match.

The generals are pretty even for each race, in that they each have a fast chariot team, a medium-fast team, and a slow team for each race.

The winning general runs his slowest team against the opponents fastest, losing the first race. He then runs his fastest team against the medium-fast team, and then his medium-fast team against his opponents slow team. This ensures a 2-1 win, and the general takes his spoils.

I always thought it was interesting, since I think the 'natural' thing to do would have been to run each team 'heads-up' (fast-fast, med-med, slow-slow).

Take from it what you can. . . .



======================= <hr></blockquote>
That's a good analogy.
That resembles the strategy of throwing a 3 against a 6. It's a classic APA move, like a pick-n-roll in basketball or a sac bunt in baseball. That's why you'll rarely see a team throw a 6 when they have to put up, cause the other team can throw a weak player.

SpiderMan
08-09-2002, 12:12 PM
That is at the discretion of the LO. Mine did the same, because he knew me. But, if a good unknown player joins the league, he will move up more slowly even if he clobbers his opponents, unless the LO intervenes.

SpiderMan