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JJFSTAR
06-13-2008, 12:35 PM
So I want to take a poll. How many of us do a pause, how many do a slow pullback and how many of us try to duplicate our delivery stroke with the last warm-up stroke?

I used to try to duplicate now I slow pullback.

MAC
06-13-2008, 01:07 PM
three or four warm ups, then slow pull back.

Eric.
06-13-2008, 02:37 PM
slow pullback and deliberate pause.


Eric

BCA Master Instr
06-13-2008, 04:03 PM
All pool players have to "pause". Some do it very intentionally while others do it naturaly. The only reason we take our cue backwards is to get room to move forwards.

It's not likely anyone can duplicate their backstroke into their forward stroke. No reason to. Case in point: On your Break, make your final backstroke at the same speed of your break stroke!!!!

I try to do both. Slow backswing with a comfortable transition.....SPF=randyg

av84fun
06-13-2008, 08:50 PM
Randy, I don't think it is useful to regenerate the debate about "all pool players pausing" which always descends into a debate on physics which few people understand...often including those who think they do.

You will recall such debates wherein people suggest that almost all strokes have SOME sort of loop...i.e. they don't go back and forth on a rail...and therefore, like a fan belt, there is no pause when the direction of travel changes.

Unless stated otherwise, I think it is best to presume that those who ask the pause question, mean a deliberate stoppage of motion for at least long enough to say the word "pause" after motion has been stopped, which as you know, is taught in the SPF method..at least Scott Lee teaches that.

That rules out LOTS and LOTS of champions including Reyes, Django, Johnny and many others...but of course, leaves in Allison and Buddy to name just two.

Given that definition, I use a slow backstroke, deliberate pause and make no particular effort to duplicate my warm up stroke speed with my final stroke...just as you suggest.

I would be willing to bet that the pros warm up strokes are taken at a VERY different speed than the final stroke in the great majority of cases...and when the two strokes are about the same speed, that is just a function of the shot stroke happening to be the same speed as the "default" warm-up strokes.

I think that anything other than a smooth "archer pulling back on the bow string" final bacskstroke...pause or no pause...is a fundamental error for most players.

Finally, I think another category should be added which is a deliberate pause just before the final backstroke..like Allison and Cory just to name a few.

Regards,
Jim

Rail Rat
06-13-2008, 09:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJFSTAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I want to take a poll. How many of us do a pause, how many do a slow pullback and how many of us try to duplicate our delivery stroke with the last warm-up stroke?

I used to try to duplicate now I slow pullback.
</div></div>

Watch the Nathan Rose/Richard Bromptom (Final #1) shown on this site.

Don't watch the ball being pocketed, where it goes etc. Just watch their CUEs only!

They do'nt do anything fancy. They have what I consider very nice easy stroke styles for amatuers to study. David has a more pronounced pause than Richard.
I've seen them play better but its the stroke we need to be watching.

When I'm off my game I like to study players like them.

http://propoolvideo.com/

BCA Master Instr
06-14-2008, 05:44 AM
Jim. Great post, thanks.....SPF=randyg

Rich R.
06-14-2008, 07:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">slow pullback and deliberate pause.


Eric </div></div>
Ditto.

At least I try to. I'm not always successful. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Rail Rat
06-14-2008, 10:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">slow pullback and deliberate pause.


Eric </div></div>
Ditto.

At least I try to. I'm not always successful. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

Whenever I forget that sequence I miss everytime!

I should correct my post on the Pool video site. I got the names wrong, its Richard that has the slower pause. I really like Richards style, for me he's the best to study.

JJFSTAR
06-14-2008, 11:56 AM
Randy I am only asking about those who deliberately pause for a specific reason or number of reasons; not the physical necessity of the transition between backward motion and forward motion. Also the meaning of duplication as I am referring to it is not the same speed you would use on your backswing but rather trying to duplicate the last forward swing that you do with the intention of using that speed on your delivery stroke; some do this unconsciously some do this with every warm up stroke and some donít think about it. And finally I think that for most really good players that I have seen the break shot is specific to itself, and therefore not a very good example of comparisons between pre-shot routines. You can compare pre-break shot routines to each other, but not break to lets say soft follow or power right draw. The Corey Duelís of the world are few and far between and I have seen even him power breaking sometimes.

I have seen all kinds of different routines or signatures in my time. The funniest is this one guy I saw and believe it or not this guy is a pretty good pool player, he does 90,000 warm up strokes in 1.4 seconds and does this routine even when he is only about to tap a ball into a pocket just thought I would share that with everyone.

RailRat, can you post the exact match you are talking about? Your link just gets to the site and I will watch more when I have more time but for now I want to see the match you are talking about, thanks.

Rail Rat
06-14-2008, 12:17 PM
Sure, it's the Nathan Rose, Richard Broumpton Final Match #1. (All their matches are good though.)

I like this match because it is a good example of different styles, David has a more classic style. Long stroke, closed bridge. Richard is more of my own style... (wish I was good as he is,) shorter stroke, longer pause, open bridge. I'm more comfortable with the easy hit than the constant hard pocketed ball.

I think that whatever works for the individual player is best, but the stroke basics never change, unless you're Reyes, he's puzzling, but he's the man.

cushioncrawler
06-14-2008, 05:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Finally, I think another category should be added which is a deliberate pause just before the final backstroke..like Allison and Cory just to name a few. Regards, Jim</div></div>That iz what one of my team mates tort me -- it iz good to hav a pause at both the start and end of the backswing.

And the waggles?? -- here he sayd that theze shood get smaller and smaller -- the last one being a teenzy-weenzy little one.

For me the waggle & backswing (& forward-swing) are allwayz a worry -- here i am talking about judging the pace of the shot. I am allwayz experimenting. For example for a hi-pace shot do i judge the pace best by (1) taking the waggle &/or backswing back further?? -- and/or (2) making the waggle &/or backswing quicker?? -- and/or (3) making the forwardswing longer.

And, for very low-pace shots, do i judge the pace better by (4) uzing a completely different swing-style -- and/or by (5) allwayz uzing drag??? Allwayz experimenting.

I uzually try to pauze at the end of my backswings, i dont know that it helps much. I think that i would lift my head and moov on the shot even moreso if i didnt pauze, thats probably the only real gain. madMac.

pooltchr
06-14-2008, 06:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Finally, I think another category should be added which is a deliberate pause just before the final backstroke..like Allison and Cory just to name a few.

Regards,
Jim

</div></div>

Jim, when we teach stroke mechanics, we talk about 3 stops in the stroke. The first comes after all warm-up strokes are finished and before starting the final back-stroke. We call this stop "Set". At the end of the back stroke is the second stop...the one we call "Pause", and the final stop is when the grip hand has completed it forward motion and come to it's natural stopping point (home). This is the stop we call Finish/Freeze.
Steve

av84fun
06-14-2008, 06:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Finally, I think another category should be added which is a deliberate pause just before the final backstroke..like Allison and Cory just to name a few.

Regards,
Jim

</div></div>

Jim, when we teach stroke mechanics, we talk about 3 stops in the stroke. The first comes after all warm-up strokes are finished and before starting the final back-stroke. We call this stop "Set". At the end of the back stroke is the second stop...the one we call "Pause", and the final stop is when the grip hand has completed it forward motion and come to it's natural stopping point (home). This is the stop we call Finish/Freeze.
Steve </div></div>

Yes, Scott taught that in my session with him. I mentioned it because it was not an option in the OP's post.

Regards,
Jim

Rail Rat
06-14-2008, 08:24 PM
You can always tell when the shooter is getting ready to pull the trigger after the set, then the slow pull back, then the pause.

For the life of me I can't understand why Mike does'nt recommend this sequence.

Jager85
06-16-2008, 10:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All pool players have to "pause". Some do it very intentionally while others do it naturaly. The only reason we take our cue backwards is to get room to move forwards.

It's not likely anyone can duplicate their backstroke into their forward stroke. No reason to. Case in point: On your Break, make your final backstroke at the same speed of your break stroke!!!!

I try to do both. Slow backswing with a comfortable transition.....SPF=randyg </div></div>

First of all, I warm up until I am comforatable and see my stroke is straight, slow pull back, slight pause.

Secondly, not all have to pause, I never did until a few months back when working on my stroke. I always had a quick stroke. It helped me keep my arm loose, but threw off my stroke a bit here and there. I had to adjust to find a good stroke with the slow pull back and slight pause. This always made my stroke straighter, by my arm tightened up and my follow through fell short more often than not. After working on it it was the main factor that got me from a SL6 to a SL7 in APA 8-ball. By staying more consistent I am able to run more.

randyg
06-16-2008, 02:32 PM
Until you started to pause on purpose, how did you stop your cue on the backstroke????SPF=randyg

Eric.
06-16-2008, 03:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: randyg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until you started to pause on purpose, how did you stop your cue on the backstroke????SPF=randyg </div></div>

Not to get into semantics, Randy, but not all strokes require the cue to stop, before going forward.


Eric

HALHOULE
06-17-2008, 03:24 PM
THE SAME AIM ALL DAY LONG

dr_dave
06-17-2008, 05:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: randyg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until you started to pause on purpose, how did you stop your cue on the backstroke????SPF=randyg </div></div>

Not to get into semantics, Randy, but not all strokes require the cue to stop, before going forward.</div></div>Eric,

The main reason why this type of thread keeps reappearing is people can't seem to settle on proper definitions of the terms "stop" and "pause." I have a good summary of what I think are valid definitions here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#SPFF

under:
What is the definition of "pause"?

Every back to forward transition must involve at least an "instantaneous stop," where the speed is 0 for an instant as it changes from negative (back) to positive (forward) (e.g., this is what happens with a free-swinging pendulum). If the player holds the cue stationary for a noticeable amount of time (i.e., the cue "stops" for more than an instant), then there is clearly a "pause."

I'm not trying to start up this debate again, because it has gone nowhere in the past. I just want to suggest that people should be more clear when they use the terms since people interpret the words differently. For example, a person can have:
1) a rushed (jerky) transition (e.g., "jerky" or "rushed")
2) a smooth transition with no deliberate or extended pause (e.g., "pause-less, but smooth").
3) a deliberate/extended pause clearly separating the back and forward strokes (e.g., "distinct pause").

Regards,
Dave

Rail Rat
06-18-2008, 11:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The main reason why this type of thread keeps reappearing is people can't seem to settle on proper definitions of the terms "stop" and "pause." I have a good summary of what I think are valid definitions here:
</div></div>

Dave you have obviously presented this subject to its maximum understanding, so we certainly donít want to belabor those points any farther, but I want to add one important thing here because learning the stroke is so critical it will determine whether a student will become a good player or never advance.

I would like to put this in 2 categories for the purposes of this discussion only: Smooth transition or Pause.

The Smooth Transition requires that once you begin your backswing you are committed to the line, the pace, the contact point and the QB hit all through the stroke.

The Pause lets you review those elements at the stop of the backswing and recommit to the shot before the follow through.

My position is the pause should be taught as stroke basics to beginning or more advanced students and then let them decide as they progress if a smooth transition is best for them. If it is then by all means continue with it, but I know that when I first learned to pause in my stroke my game instantly improved.

I canít help but get a little concerned when I hear some other instructors speak out against the pause (Iím not implying you.) They can mislead a lot of newer players and possibly set them off in the wrong direction.

-Brad

Bob_Jewett
06-18-2008, 12:22 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...
The Pause lets you review those elements at the stop of the backswing and recommit to the shot before the follow through.
... </div></div>
Does this mean that you make a conscious decision at the end of the back stroke as to whether you should continue with the forward stroke? Do you occasionally abandon the shot at the end of the back stroke and start over?

Rail Rat
06-18-2008, 12:44 PM
"Recommit" may not be a good term for me to have used, "re-affirming" the stroke or "locking it in" before the follow through is more what I should say.

av84fun
06-18-2008, 07:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...
The Pause lets you review those elements at the stop of the backswing and recommit to the shot before the follow through.
... </div></div>
Does this mean that you make a conscious decision at the end of the back stroke as to whether you should continue with the forward stroke? Do you occasionally abandon the shot at the end of the back stroke and start over? </div></div>

No but it:

A. Permits more time to make the final decision as to the pace of the shot and

B. To refocus the eye on whatever OB target the player uses without the distraction of a virtually continuously moving cue.

Re: A. some players benefit from that extra time and others don't. But the decision IS made just before initiation of the forward stroke. The player has a general idea about pace before he/she even bends down to the shot but the actual "pulling of the trigger" happens an instant before the forward stroke begins.

Re: B. Some players are more or less distracted by the motion of the cue in our peripheral vision. As pilots, we WANT to be easily "distracted" so that our eyes will be readily drawn to moving objects...such as other airplanes that are about to occupy the same airspace with us and thereby ruin our whole day.

Those more easily distracted by motion will be helped by adopting a definite pause (by the time the cue stick registers in our peripheral vision during the forward stroke, the cb is long gone).

I too experienced immediate benefits when I adopted the pause for exactly the above reasons. For others, it may not help and might hurt.

For those interested in trying it out, shoot 100 shots with ZERO warm up strokes....just draw the cue FULL back...shift eye contact back to the OB and stroke through with a smoothly accelerating stroke.

I got to the point that I seriously considered eliminating the warm-up strokes altogether.


Actually, few athletes who direct "clubs" at objects use any such thing as "warm-up" strokes...not baseball batters...not tennis players...not hockey players...not golfers (once they have addressed the ball).

Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim

Bambu
06-19-2008, 10:01 AM
I think you hit it on the head, jim. The pause gives you a longer look at the object ball, and prevents a jerky stroke.

Rail Rat
06-19-2008, 02:38 PM
Jim, don't give up feathering the cue, it's what keeps you in stroke. I know when I start getting into my rhythm I'm tempted to just smack it in but always stay with your routine.

Also you can't compare pool to any other sport, its the only game where all you move is your arm (other than darts and shuffle board.) Thats why I think pool players are usually good at those games. It requires keeping your body still and sighting with your arm. You feather back and forth in both those games the same as pool.

Incidently there are two stroke styles in those games also, But lets don't open that can of worms. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Bambu
06-19-2008, 06:07 PM
I did see one guy play pretty well that way, no warm up- strokes at all. But for me, I also feel its harder to truly zone in on a target without feathering.

av84fun
06-19-2008, 07:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rail Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim, don't give up feathering the cue, it's what keeps you in stroke. I know when I start getting into my rhythm I'm tempted to just smack it in but always stay with your routine.

Also you can't compare pool to any other sport, its the only game where all you move is your arm (other than darts and shuffle board.) Thats why I think pool players are usually good at those games. It requires keeping your body still and sighting with your arm. You feather back and forth in both those games the same as pool.

Incidently there are two stroke styles in those games also, But lets don't open that can of worms. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
</div></div>

I suggested no feathering primarily as a transition to the distinct pause stoke for those interested in adopting it but as you can see, the two top darts players in the video below take a single, tiny "waggle" and don't repetitively feather their strokes at all.

Neither does the legendary shuffleboard player, Billy who does some great trick shots in the clip below, including making the puck to a 180 degree turn! That shot alone is worth the time looking at the clip! (-:

In addition, more and more players are adopting VERY distinct pauses at the CB before their final backstroke (SVB, Cory, Stepanov just to name a few) so that the stroke motion that counts is...dead stop...single backstroke to a distinct pause or smooth transition...to the forward stroke.

So, while repeated feathering is obviously 100% traditional and time-honored, I am not at all sure that it accomplishes much. But again, I am not advocating non-feathering except as a device to help transition to the distinct pause.
Regards,
Jim


http://youtube.com/watch?v=B_vexc--Vl0&amp;feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kpfuiaTR19I&amp;feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lXmbhYO2oaU&amp;feature=related