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Rail Rat
06-15-2008, 07:23 PM
Many experienced players may know this system but I thought I would post it for those newer players looking for a good way to help find an aiming point for bank shots.

Imagine another table placed next to the real table. Now for an aiming point, shoot the OB as if you want to make it in the Ghost pocket as shown.

If for instance on bank B you want to bank to the left pocket aim to the opposte ghost pocket.

Do not apply side spin (english) on the QB!!


-brad



http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/BankB.jpg http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/BankA.jpg

Koenig
06-15-2008, 10:24 PM
I know Ewa S.M.L. uses it.

Btw since you are cutting away from the shot you obviously have to aim thinner.

Bambu
06-16-2008, 06:41 AM
Systems like that are good for reference points, but they dont account for cue ball speed or spin.

Rail Rat
06-16-2008, 07:57 AM
You must try and hit the QB as near to center as possible for accuracy on any bank (Unless you are intentionally throwing the ball to change the angle.)

For pace if you shoot hard enough to hit the ghost pocket you will reach the bank pocket.

Incidently the examples shown are typical bank situations, The system will work from just about any situation except an extreme bank.

Bambu
06-16-2008, 09:21 AM
Thats probably true for most players, but unless its a dead bank, I usually use a little outside english to open up the angle a bit. Other times I use inside to shorten the angle, depending on where the cue ball needs to go.

Rail Rat
06-16-2008, 09:53 AM
What I have shown are fairly straight forward situations but for more difficult positions this is a good way to find the line.

DeadCrab
06-16-2008, 10:49 AM
Yup, it is an acceptable way of finding the "geometrical" banking point. That is, the point where the bank will work if "angle in equals angle out".

Unfortunately, cushions do not behave very well, and the angle out of the cushion does not equal the angle into the cushion. This is because the deformed cushion "pushes back" on the incoming ball, and also decreases the velocity of the rebounded ball. To compensate for this, either a)english must be used, b)the banking point needs to be changed by increasing the cut angle on the object ball, or a combination of a & b.

Jack Koehler's book has an excellent chapter on why banks need compensation. I recently posted on Jimmy Reid's method of using english to make banks go, and this seems to work well for cross banks on a 7' table, although an extra 1/4 tip is needed if there is much of a cut. Because cross-banks pick up the proper spin when they are cut by the cue ball, there is less need for compensation, and they can usually be shot into the geometric banking point.

Rail Rat
06-16-2008, 04:49 PM
The value of the ghost pocket is to have an aiming reference to start with. Once you are familiar with a table you can then adjust.

You can also use the ghost pocket and the diamonds together, for instance in bank B the sight line goes about 1 inch below the 3rd diamod. When down on the shot you can now focus on that aiming point, so its a good reference tool. I try and stay away from side as much as possible, it just makes the bank that much more difficult.

Bob_Jewett
06-16-2008, 06:40 PM
If you want the system to be accurate for close-to-the-cushion shots, you need to be careful how the mirrored table is aligned. Many authors make the mistake of putting the noses of the two cushions together. The ball is not reflected from the nose of the cushion; it is reflected from the rail groove. For more on simple mirror banking and kicking, and something better, including the two-cushion-in-the-corner case, see these articles from Billiards Digest:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1996-10.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-05.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-07.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-08.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-09.pdf

av84fun
06-16-2008, 09:04 PM
No disrespect, but among the reasons I don't much care for that system is--for example on the two shots diagrammed--the fictitious pockets are about 7 1/2 and 13 1/2 ft. shots! (-:

So, if the player can make those he/she doesn't need any help banking!!!

(-:
Jim

Bob_Jewett
06-17-2008, 09:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No disrespect, but among the reasons I don't much care for that system is--for example on the two shots diagrammed--the fictitious pockets are about 7 1/2 and 13 1/2 ft. shots! (-:

So, if the player can make those he/she doesn't need any help banking!!!

(-:
Jim </div></div>
Well, yes, but the system accurately shows how hard the shots are. Most beginning players seem to think that banks are easier than they really are.

Rail Rat
06-17-2008, 11:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want the system to be accurate for close-to-the-cushion shots, you need to be careful how the mirrored table is aligned. Many authors make the mistake of putting the noses of the two cushions together. The ball is not reflected from the nose of the cushion; it is reflected from the rail groove. For more on simple mirror banking and kicking, and something better, including the two-cushion-in-the-corner case, see these articles from Billiards Digest:
</div></div>

Thanks Bob, good info there.
My intention was to try and keep it simple with the mirror visual. You will notice I placed the pockets directly on top of each other for the diagram and not actually side by side. But even then as you say the cushion edge is a bit closer so you must allow for that. All in all a bank presents many factors to consider for any kind of accuracy.

To Av84fun I would say that of course an imaginary pocket at that distance is difficult. What you can do is sight down the red ball to the imaginary pocket and notice where the line intersects the rail near a diamond. Now use that diamond as a reference to shoot at from the OB position.

av84fun
06-17-2008, 11:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob_Jewett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No disrespect, but among the reasons I don't much care for that system is--for example on the two shots diagrammed--the fictitious pockets are about 7 1/2 and 13 1/2 ft. shots! (-:

So, if the player can make those he/she doesn't need any help banking!!!

(-:
Jim </div></div>
Well, yes, but the system accurately shows how hard the shots are. Most beginning players seem to think that banks are easier than they really are. </div></div>

OK, but the easiest way to show beginners how hard it is to learn bank shots is to have them try 10 of them.

Regards,
Jim

Rail Rat
06-18-2008, 02:01 PM
No two banks are ever the same, there are to many variables. Even pros will only attempt one as a last resort. What an aiming system can do for you is at least give you a reference point so that your odds of making it are better.

In 8Ball or 1pocket its important that if you don't make the ball at least leave it over the pocket! I would advise practising an aiming system, as being close sometimes is also good.

I find that sometimes a 2 rail bank is easier than a one rail. I would advise a good pool instruction video or book that shows how to make a rectangle on the table for 2 and 3 rail banks and kicks. -Brad

DeadCrab
06-18-2008, 02:34 PM
Except for banks players, one-pocket players, carom players, and those with good senses of geometry, you are correct about banking being something to avoid.

It is amusing to watch big-name 9-ball players unable to run three balls (or even one)in a banks game at DCC.

However, I find many cross table banks to be almost automatic, and often better shot selection than difficult cuts. Being able to make some banks really opens up the game on a 7' table.

Deeman3
06-18-2008, 03:35 PM
Deadcrab:

Someone forgot to tell the guys at DCC that I drew they cold not bank. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I always draw those Kentucky boys, you know, the ones that bank coming out of the womb!

DeadCrab
06-18-2008, 03:51 PM
Oh there are some great bankers out there. But being able to run a 6-pack in 9-ball or a century in straight pool does not guarantee success at banks.

Somewhere on youtube there is a DCC all-star ring banks game where the 3-ball runs were scarce.

For some interesting banks videos and thoughts on the subject, check this site:

http://barenada.com/poolmovies/