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Vapros
06-18-2008, 07:05 PM
In visualizing two and three rail banks, (softly, for one-pocket), is it correct to expect the line to the first rail will be parallel, or nearly so, to the line off the second rail? And if there is a third rail (and a fourth line) that it will parallel the line from first to second rail? That's the way it looks in instructional diagrams, but nobody seems to express it that way. If my picture of it is correct, would that not be the best guide to teach? Easier than counting diamonds and making calculations. Maybe it would be a good way to lag, but not to pocket balls??

Bob_Jewett
06-19-2008, 10:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vapros</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In visualizing two and three rail banks, (softly, for one-pocket), is it correct to expect the line to the first rail will be parallel, or nearly so, to the line off the second rail? And if there is a third rail (and a fourth line) that it will parallel the line from first to second rail? That's the way it looks in instructional diagrams, but nobody seems to express it that way. If my picture of it is correct, would that not be the best guide to teach? Easier than counting diamonds and making calculations. Maybe it would be a good way to lag, but not to pocket balls?? </div></div>
The first and third lines are rarely parallel, whether banking or kicking. The standard two-rail bank in one pocket from the rack area back to your pocket (side rail first) depends a lot on the cloth and the spin you transfer to the object ball. By "a lot" I mean a diamond or so when you get to your pocket.

A common two rail kick system out of a corner uses a point half way between the cue ball and the target which is joined with the pocket. You then shoot parallel to that constructed line. This is discussed in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-07.pdf along with an easy way to set up a quick, accurate test of the system. This system assumes the first and third lines are parallel. Try the system to see if it works or can be made to work.

Vapros
06-19-2008, 09:30 PM
Thanks for your response. I recently reviewed a series of your articles that you offered on this site. I don't play anything but one-pocket any more, so the two rail kick is not a common situation for me. On the two-rail lags, I do fairly well going short rail first, as I play them all as 45 degree shots, and usually make a good lag or pocket the ball. Long rail first is tougher, as you noted, so I play them all with holding english and hope to get lucky.

Three railers are a mystery to me. I know they should be easier and more accurate, but I just don't see them. All my enemies hit them better than I do. Can you suggest a helpful approach, maybe with a ghost table or something similar? Thanks.

Bob_Jewett
06-19-2008, 09:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vapros</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... Three railers are a mystery to me. I know they should be easier and more accurate, but I just don't see them. All my enemies hit them better than I do. Can you suggest a helpful approach, maybe with a ghost table or something similar? Thanks. </div></div>
Learn the corner-5 system. Also, try the proposition: who takes more shots to 3-rail kick in a spot shot leaving the object ball as is each shot? Try to use running follow as a standard on 3-rail kicks.

Deeman3
06-20-2008, 07:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vapros</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for your response. I recently reviewed a series of your articles that you offered on this site. I don't play anything but one-pocket any more, so the two rail kick is not a common situation for me. On the two-rail lags, I do fairly well going short rail first, as I play them all as 45 degree shots, and usually make a good lag or pocket the ball. Long rail first is tougher, as you noted, so I play them all with holding english and hope to get lucky.

Three railers are a mystery to me. I know they should be easier and more accurate, but I just don't see them. All my enemies hit them better than I do. Can you suggest a helpful approach, maybe with a ghost table or something similar? Thanks. </div></div>


<span style="color: #FF0000">Vapros,

If your playing only one pocket, I'd think two and three railers would be your bread and butter. I think, more than anything, one pocket taught me those shots. Maybe you just need to play more one pocket with players who move better and shoot at the hole form everywhere.

I agree the systems are a good starting point but banking is so intuitive, you just have to hit a bunch to get comfortable with them. </span>

Rail Rat
06-21-2008, 11:13 AM
Here's a simple way to find the line for a straight forward 2 and 3 rail kick.

Imagine a rectangle on the table that intersects the Qb and the Ob at some point along the line. Notice that should the red be farther along the line to the bottom rail it becomes a 3 rail kick, so if your angle is true it will hit the red anywhere on that line. Coming in behind the red with two rails is actually easier than a one rail attempt because you can see the line better. Apply a slight touch of running inside english.

Rotate the rectangle for different ball positions.

It is true that other factors come into play, a steep angle reacts differently and there may be a pocket in your line, But the situation shown is typical for many kicks.
-brad


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/rectangle.jpg

Vapros
06-21-2008, 04:30 PM
Thanks for your help. In one-pocket, these kicking situations do not come up often, but I will keep it in mind. A plan for three rail banks is what I really need.

Bob Jewett has recommended the corner 5 system, but now I need to find it. I gave away my Robert Byrne books several years ago, and I can't remember who has them today.

Bob_Jewett
06-21-2008, 06:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vapros</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... I gave away my Robert Byrne books several years ago, and I can't remember who has them today. </div></div>
According to Amazon, you can get his "New Standard" book delivered to your house in less than 3 days for a total of $8.

Vapros
06-23-2008, 03:51 PM
On Sunday, Rail Rat added another response to this thread, with two diagrams included. When I brought it up again some three hours later, his post had disappeared. Did RR remove it? What happened?

Rail Rat
06-23-2008, 07:38 PM
"Sorry" Vapros, I took it off myself, I found a flaw in one so I'm doing some more work on it. This is the 3 rail that shows how to use the diamonds on a ghost table.

Your oponent thinks that red is safe but with the right hit its in your pocket.
(A) sight the ghost diamond as shown and make a reference where it passes the rail. (B) shoot from wherever your ball is, (in this case it's to the right). Be sure and hit slight top and absolute dead center.

This is just 1 example, if you practice different diamond points on the table you can use ghost diamonds to your advantage. Notice 3rd diamond up on the side rail is 2nd diamond on ghost rail. After a while you won't need the diamonds as you learn how the banks react. Brad
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/table3.jpg

dr_dave
06-25-2008, 07:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vapros</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob Jewett has recommended the corner 5 system, but now I need to find it.</div></div>FYI, TP 7.2 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/TP_7-2.pdf) shows how the Corner-5 three-rail kick diamond system works.

Regards,
Dave

Rail Rat
06-25-2008, 09:23 AM
I have attempted to put together with much experiment a ghost diamond system for multiple banks, but I've found these systems and others usually only get the ball near the pocket with the occasional pocketing at best, and I can do that without any system.

I think its best to learn 2 or more rail banks through constant practice from different parts of the table and knowing how the table rebounds from various angles and positions through experience. There are many factors that come into play and practical application certainly helps but instinct acquired through practiced memory seems to be the best answer. By all means learn the diamond reference system but as your article suggests there is no free lunch.