PDA

View Full Version : Break Pratice Help....Instructors please



bluey2king
06-20-2008, 08:01 AM
Hello;
I have started working on my Break. I will develop a killer break but I need some help.
Background:
I bought a BreakRac from Charlie Bond a couple of weeks ago. I started banging away at it just to get the feel of it. I was using my break cue which is a regular cue with a phnolic tip about 18 oz guess I removed the weight bolt. I shoped for and bought a Break cue on Ebay a used Fury for $72. It is much heaver my guess 21 oz. I have had this cue for four days and I notice that I am not hitting the CB where I am aiming. I am using a Jim Rempee CB. I am hitting consistntly high right. At the beginning of my pratice I am off my a cue tip! As I work on my focus I get closer but I see a pattern of I am off to the right and lots of times high and right. If I get down in my stance and shoot like a regular shot there is a big improvement but I lose lots of power.
I am requesting some instruction tips, advice, on how to approach this training systematicly.
Last night I practiced for a couple of hours straight on this and the end I racked up some balls to shoot a game of gost 8 ball then 9ball my Break was OK but I noticed that my stroke had changed. I think from all that Hard Hitting for a couple of hours.
Thanks in advance to all you guys are Great.

Deeman3
06-20-2008, 08:47 AM
The way I break, because I have, like you, a different delivery point than I think, is to make an adjustment with the tip of my cue while addressing the ball. Now, if you are consistently hitting the same place, this works. If not, you will have to continue to back off your speed until you are more consistent.

Just for reference, my adjustment is only a half tip lower than where I "think" I am aiming as I am o.k. side to side.

If you are tired, you may want to take a break so you are not favoring your stroke in some way. The most important thing, IMHO, is that you can make up a heck of a lot of energy delivery by accuracy rather than speed. Just a bit off on the square hit of the lead ball loses a lot of power you can't just make up by hitting them harder.

Good Luck.

Bambu
06-20-2008, 08:53 AM
There are more experienced instructors here, but I will try to help. At some point in your stroke you are forking off to the right when you hit hard. So, a hard and accurate stroke must be developed. I would stay down, even on the break. Its harder to aim without being eye level with the cue ball. Some do it well, but thats from years of experience. Others may disagree, but I dont like a heavy break cue. Cue speed is more important than power. Was your break any better with the 18 oz?
I recommend breaking soft, which increases your chances of a full hit. Also pay close attention to the cueball, it tells the whole story. Once you can control the cb on a soft break, say 50% power, gradually start hitting harder. But you dont need 100% power on a break, a full hit is more important. Any fraction less than a full hit loses valuable power transfer, more important than cue ball MPH. After you can control the cb with 50% power and a full hit, try 60, then 75%. A controlled break at 75% can be very effective.
A good drill is to hit the cue ball up table and have it come straight back to the spot. (Its a simulated break, but I like this because you dont need to re-rack when practicing breaking.) Try doing that hard enough to hit 3 rails plus the roll. You might hit 4 rails on a lively table, but that much power shouldnt be necessary anyway.

av84fun
06-20-2008, 07:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bluey2king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello;
I have started working on my Break. I will develop a killer break but I need some help.
Background:
I bought a BreakRac from Charlie Bond a couple of weeks ago. I started banging away at it just to get the feel of it. I was using my break cue which is a regular cue with a phnolic tip about 18 oz guess I removed the weight bolt. I shoped for and bought a Break cue on Ebay a used Fury for $72. It is much heaver my guess 21 oz. I have had this cue for four days and I notice that I am not hitting the CB where I am aiming. I am using a Jim Rempee CB. I am hitting consistntly high right. At the beginning of my pratice I am off my a cue tip! As I work on my focus I get closer but I see a pattern of I am off to the right and lots of times high and right. If I get down in my stance and shoot like a regular shot there is a big improvement but I lose lots of power.
I am requesting some instruction tips, advice, on how to approach this training systematicly.
Last night I practiced for a couple of hours straight on this and the end I racked up some balls to shoot a game of gost 8 ball then 9ball my Break was OK but I noticed that my stroke had changed. I think from all that Hard Hitting for a couple of hours.
Thanks in advance to all you guys are Great. </div></div>

Go to Colin Colenso's site and check out his power break instructional video. It was literally done on a cell phone video so the graphics are crude but the INFORMATION is there.

Colin was one of the earlier proponents of the "up move" which some of the greatest breakers on the planet now use.

http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/InstructionalVideos/_archives/2006/10/12/2410328.html

However, IMHO, it takes championship coordination to synchronize that move with the rest of the arm and body movement that is required. Some...make that many...players just don't have the coordination to pull that move off. I certainly don't.

My compromise which results in a fairly powerful and quite accurate break goes as follows:

1. Address the CB as normal and aim for a square hit on the 1 Ball.

2. The cue tip target is about a 1/2 tip radius below center. Do NOT address the ball with the extreme draw tip position because you need to END UP striking the CB a little below center not a LOT below center or you will draw the CB back to the head rail every time. Those who address that low end up striking the CB near the center either because of the UP move or just adjusting the cb target on the final stroke.

But my suggestion is the address the CB where you intend to strike it in the first place. That leads to far more consistent cb contact.

3. Once you have dialed in your aim line, re-orient your eye focus EXCLUSIVELY on the CB. If you have a good stroke, you should be able to repeatedly stroke down your aim line even with your eyes closed so focussing on the CB for the finaly 3 strokes should present ZERO problems with respect to aiming.

4. During those last three strokes, imagine a hole through the CB and on the last stroke, commit to stroking the cue all the way through the imaginary hole. Doing so gives you an excellent "3D" image and target through which to direct the cue on the final power stroke,

The above imagary has made a significant improvement...not only in the speed of my break stroke but also its accuracy.

Finally, regarding the tip target on the cb...you might want to start with a dead center hit although for most people, that will result in forward roll at impact and the CB following down table.

How much below center will result in the CB "squatting" near the center of the table will vary based on CB speed but should never be more than 1 tip of low which will produce draw even on fairly moderate stroke speeds.

I hope you find this to be useful.

Regards,
Jim

pooltchr
06-20-2008, 07:39 PM
I refer you to the answer Blackjack gave you on the other forum to this same post. Never sacrafice accuracy for power!
Steve

Rail Rat
06-21-2008, 10:15 AM
I'm not an instructor but I have had a lot of teaching on my break.

Based on just what you said and without actually seeing your break, I wonder if a 21 OZ cue is'nt too heavy? A heavy cue does'nt mean more power. It takes more effort to push it through and that may intail putting un-wanted wrist/arm action.

I like to take a long backswing and have my arm fully extended and pointing right at the contact point on the follow thru. I know this is contrary to some videos showing a short, quick snap but usually their QB is all over the map. As mentioned try taking a little off the power for accuracy.

dgem
06-22-2008, 02:51 AM
Maybe you could try to put your eyes on the cueball last when hitting during the break.

JJFSTAR
06-22-2008, 10:57 AM
All good advice especially from av84fun; I am going to try that imaginary hole through the CB. That is actually how I aim the long strait in shot so it makes perfect sense to me.

Colin’s video is great and I learned something from it but my 2 cents is that most great players have more than one break. If you watch the world cup of pool 2007; 4th round I believe. You will see a great break analysis of the Finnish or Scottish I think team I think, they found the “sweet spot” they were using a precision break as opposed to a power break.

My break; for most games (8 ball and 9 ball) goes like this:

1. Start with precision break far from the head spot and hit the head ball with a stop shot square in the nose and hard while staying down. If this break is working on this table meaning a ball or two are dropping and the CB is pulling back 3-6in to end up dead center of the table there is no need to adjust anything all night. Boy I wish that were true of my break but sadly this happens only when I am at a familiar table and am really on.

2. If this isn’t working (I give my precision break 3 or 4 tries before I start adjusting) I gradually move more center and add more power right up to the power break where I actually do not stay fully down in my stance. If you watch the Ortman vs. Lee match Challenge of Champions second semifinal 1997 or 1998 I believe. You will see Ortman switch sides of the table that he is breaking from and tone down his power because he keeps scratching in the left side pocket. He is a pool guru and he had to tone it down and adjust that day

All in all IMHO there isn’t an “ideal break” that will work for every game on any table, you have to adapt sometimes. I think having your break cue heavier than your shooting cue is not a good idea but everyone has their own take on things. I play with a 20 and break with a 19 and it works really well for me.

Toasti/The hit man (Thorsten Hohmann) is my hero in pool; I try to break like that. I can’t do it but I try, he can hit that ball at over 30mph and have that CB squirt back 4in to end up dead center of the table or thereabouts CONSISTANTLY!!!

To bottom line it you may have the same problem I do I am not as talented as I wish I were. The ability to hit the CB with lots of power, spread and drop balls as well as land the CB center table consistently is a demoralizing undertaking that takes long hours of practice combined with raw skill.

My advice is to do the same thing that you are hearing in this thread. Hit the pack with what you can handle; not what you can generate

av84fun
06-22-2008, 12:11 PM
I agree with JJFSTAR that we all should have at least two breaks...a slower precision break to see if we can get the 1 ball or wing ball to go consistently and then a power break if the 1/wing aren't going.

In desperation, I will sometimes use a cut break to get the CB to rebound of the long rail and back into the rack area in hopes of getting the 9 ball to move.

I also agree that Thorsten has one of the best breaks in the world.

Regards,
Jim

colincolenso
06-24-2008, 09:39 AM
Thanks for the compliment and link Jim and glad to know Bluey got a couple of insights from the video. A better quality and more comprehensive video is in the works btw. This time I might edit out the cue balls that fly off the table /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

While I'm here let me mention a valuable breaking video by Joe Tucker http://www.joetucker.net called Racking Secrets. I purchased this recently and improved my number of wing balls on the 9-ball break significantly and almost immediately.

Also Joe has a neat little pitchfork like device which fits onto a cue and helps to train a player to align the cue properly to the center of the ball. Haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure it would help.

Another cause could be an unintended swoop on power shots which causes your hand to come leftward (toward the body for a right hander ) during the swing. A cure for this might be to focus on the straightness of your swing while doing a lot of practice shots.

There are a lot of variables to good breaking, but having a controlled powerful break means that you can take 10% or so off the power and still have a powerful break with a lot of more control.

Colin

av84fun
06-24-2008, 10:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: colincolenso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the compliment and link Jim and glad to know Bluey got a couple of insights from the video. A better quality and more comprehensive video is in the works btw. This time I might edit out the cue balls that fly off the table /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

While I'm here let me mention a valuable breaking video by Joe Tucker http://www.joetucker.net called Racking Secrets. I purchased this recently and improved my number of wing balls on the 9-ball break significantly and almost immediately.

Also Joe has a neat little pitchfork like device which fits onto a cue and helps to train a player to align the cue properly to the center of the ball. Haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure it would help.

Another cause could be an unintended swoop on power shots which causes your hand to come leftward (toward the body for a right hander ) during the swing. A cure for this might be to focus on the straightness of your swing while doing a lot of practice shots.

There are a lot of variables to good breaking, but having a controlled powerful break means that you can take 10% or so off the power and still have a powerful break with a lot of more control.

Colin </div></div>

YES!

I was scratching the CB into the left side pocket way too often and I couldn't figure out why I was hitting the 1 ball left of square (breaking from the right).

Using the 9 ball as a CB (and using the circle in the #9 as my tip target, I found I was consistently striking the CB right of center thereby causing squirt to the left..so I must have been doing the back hand move toward my body causing the tip to hit the CB right of center just as you suggest.

It was my using the 9 ball and aiming at the "circle" formed by the loop of the #9 that gave me the idea of thinking about driving the cue through an imaginary hole drilled through the CB.


That, of course, requires eye focus on the CB and not the 1B which is contrary to what is generally (but not exclusively) taught.

But A) driving the cue through the hole proved VERY effective in maintaining the line of aim so focus on the 1 ball became unnecessary and B) I found I had more confidence in using near-maximum force with my eye focussed on the object I intended to strike with the cue tip..i.e. the CB and not the 1 Ball.

Results for others may vary but the benefits to me were immediate and significant.

Regards,
Jim

colincolenso
06-24-2008, 10:42 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
YES!

I was scratching the CB into the left side pocket way too often and I couldn't figure out why I was hitting the 1 ball left of square (breaking from the right).

Using the 9 ball as a CB (and using the circle in the #9 as my tip target, I found I was consistently striking the CB right of center thereby causing squirt to the left..so I must have been doing the back hand move toward my body causing the tip to hit the CB right of center just as you suggest.

It was my using the 9 ball and aiming at the "circle" formed by the loop of the #9 that gave me the idea of thinking about driving the cue through an imaginary hole drilled through the CB.


That, of course, requires eye focus on the CB and not the 1B which is contrary to what is generally (but not exclusively) taught.

But A) driving the cue through the hole proved VERY effective in maintaining the line of aim so focus on the 1 ball became unnecessary and B) I found I had more confidence in using near-maximum force with my eye focussed on the object I intended to strike with the cue tip..i.e. the CB and not the 1 Ball.

Results for others may vary but the benefits to me were immediate and significant.

Regards,
Jim </div></div>
Jim,

Though it's better to learn to hit the CB dead center, it can also help if you bridge a bit shorter than you are presently doing. Then, if you do hit right of center, the resultant squirt will even out the effect so you'll still make a pretty good hit on the 1B, providing your initial bridge alignment was ok.

Alternatively, try a break cue with a longer pivot point (less squirt), then you can bridge at a more comfortable distance.

Regarding focusing on the CB, I also recommend this on the break shot, so long as you take good care to align to the 1B while setting the bridge in place.

Good shooting,
Colin

av84fun
06-24-2008, 09:35 PM
EDIT.....IMPORTANT!

I forgot to include the following which I got from Tony Robles when he gave me a mini-lesson in N.Y. at a mutual friend's house a few months ago.

For years, Tony had a super-fast and super-jerky warm up stroke routine on his break shot which is why...as HE said to me..."I have a bad break and that makes me basically a punching bag on the tour."

What he did (and he is playing SUPER now) is to STOP at the cb on the final practice stroke and then draw back SLOWLY on the final backstroke.

By SLOWLY, I mean about as slow as you can go and still keep the cue moving!!

During that stroke you keep your muscles SUPER RELAXED and maintain a FEATHER LIGHT grip...then just BURST forward through the hole!

The hole concept is mine, not Tony's but the SLOW back is his and with that intense focus ON THE CB along with the ultra-controlled, slow back stroke you feel like you can SLAM into the CB at maximum speed.

Bambu
06-25-2008, 07:57 AM
One more thing about breaking I have learned when not racking your own: Break from the side of the table where the rack seems to be "pointed." Few people center the rack perfectly, so unless you ask for a re-rack, adjust the cue ball for a dead on hit. If you stay on your preferred break side no matter what, you might be breaking crooked racks all night long. Many people cock the rack to their right or left consistently, without realizing it.

JJFSTAR
06-30-2008, 10:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One more thing about breaking I have learned when not racking your own: Break from the side of the table where the rack seems to be "pointed." Few people center the rack perfectly, so unless you ask for a re-rack, adjust the cue ball for a dead on hit. If you stay on your preferred break side no matter what, you might be breaking crooked racks all night long. Many people cock the rack to their right or left consistently, without realizing it. </div></div>

I will be looking at that thanks

caedos
07-02-2008, 09:32 PM
If your break shot demands a stroke and body movement different than that of normal play, have you ever taken yourself through your break shot movements at superSLOW speed in a step-by-step manner. This type of familiarization with the movement you are trying to perform will help you execute at high speed more quickly. Whatever break mechanics you decide upon, I think this type of rehearsal for a new movement is very helpful.

Good luck!


Carl

bluey2king
07-11-2008, 12:30 PM
I have a update to my breaking.
Thanks to all for the Great advise!
I have been doing so much better with a 70% hit. Gosh it was hard to take some off I guess it is memory in the muscels. I am not where I want to be by any means, but my hit j Rempe ball is right on the little guys head! (you need to see the ball.
I am amazed at how much a little off target with a strong hit will effect spin, left right and follow. The trick as I see it is getting the speed in your muscle memory just right, then you can forget about that part and think about your hit on the OB.

Guys I cant tell you how much the accuracy advice has helped! I am a gym rat and I am pretty strong, I was trying to do too much by smashing the rack. With a pure dead on hit at about 70% power, keeping my head down like a regular shot (tip from here)and a hard shot with follow thru!!!! I have balls flying all over the table several 9ball breaks. My CB still rolls more than I want, but it is not flying around at all
The follow through was a big improvment, I just noticed that I was punching my CB and kind of stopping. I focused and still have too focus on following thru...and BAM the CB stoped in the middle of the table and my chalk mark was back in the center.
Thanks to the ConerMan!!
I was praticing last night after a layoff from the 4th. I am not where I want to be but I will improve.
Thanks to Charlie the Break Rac is a Great invention!!
My dogs dont like it though...*S they leave when I start my Break pratice

Collin I look forward to you new Break Video let me know when its ready.
I do have Joe Tucker's training material. Joe it has helped soo much the aiming system. Every week I make shot that someone goes WOW!! and its just hitting the number...knowing the answer as you put it. I still have a lot of work to do there but I see results and that is very exciting.
Oh BTW the new Fury Break cue I bought on Ebay I removed the bolt and cut it down to match the weight of my playing cue. I think this help also! It was Very Heavy.