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llotter
07-04-2008, 03:02 PM
For all those not too corrupted by evils of life today...

http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=10904

mike60
07-04-2008, 03:27 PM
WARNING: This is a religious themed article.

mike60

llotter
07-04-2008, 06:06 PM
I had held out some hope that it was ignorance rather than stupidity that motivated your posts here but I see that hope was misplaced.

pooltchr
07-04-2008, 06:26 PM
Interesting article. The author has been big enough to admit to prior errors in judgement, and actually change her views on the subject. Politicians might call it a "flip-flop", but I like to think of it as enlightenment and maturing.

As we grow older, we hopefully grow wiser as well.

Thanks for the story.
Steve

sack316
07-04-2008, 10:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WARNING: This is a religious themed article.

mike60 </div></div>

So what? The article isn't a "believe this way or burn in hell for eternity" article. It's about her, and her life process and journey to what she believes is a greater understanding. Anyone may agree or disagree with it. But I don't see it's central theme as being about religion, I see the theme as her personal journey... and in her case religion happened to be a big part of that. I, for the most part, don't particularly like a lot about Catholicism personally... but I felt there was nothing about this article one would need to be "warned" about.

Sack

mike60
07-04-2008, 10:51 PM
llotter, You have the oats to call me ignorant & stupid when you revere James Kopp the convicted murderer who sniped from ambush? Go fuck yourself.
Religion is nothing more than superstition. Back shooting snipers are scum and
deserve prison or worse. So save the smug bullshit for the other fools.

mike60 educated&well armed against superstition

LWW
07-05-2008, 10:16 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WARNING: This is a religious themed article.

mike60 </div></div>
WARNING: This is a truth mike60 doesn't want to deal with.

LWW

LWW
07-05-2008, 10:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">llotter, You have the oats to call me ignorant & stupid when you revere James Kopp the convicted murderer who sniped from ambush? Go fuck yourself.
Religion is nothing more than superstition. Back shooting snipers are scum and
deserve prison or worse. So save the smug bullshit for the other fools.

mike60 educated&well armed against superstition </div></div>
Who said anything about James Kopp ... the new far left buzzaccusation now I guess ... but I imagine he dehumanized his victims in much the manner the article describes.

It's OK.

I can tell it struck something in your soul to read it.

That is good sir.

LWW

mike60
07-05-2008, 01:01 PM
Good morning from California, LWW, "Larry in VA...James Kopp, A real Hero and martyr" is on the top post of this thread. James Kopp is doing life for the murder
of a doctor that he didn't know except for the fact the doctor preformed abortions.
To state that this back shooting ambushing scum is "A real Hero and martyr" is proof that "Larry" is at least a fool and maybe a dangerous fool. James Kopp has been charged with murder in Canada as well. My personal views about abortion are that i wish it was never necessary. Alas in the real world it sometimes must be. As far as religion. My personal beliefs are private. I am an atheist for lack of a better term. I wish is that others would have enough faith in themselves to never ever mention religion to anyone else for any reason. If you are a true believer it should remain between you and your god and that should be enough to
sustain your faith. Religion is too often the wedge that divides people until they
fight each other and commit war. Believe anything but keep it to yourself.
I read the article and i repeat that her feelings and the changes she went through are inspiring and good for her but she ain't me. I revere education and i feel it will suffice in this life. This isn't about left-right, religion-atheism it is about respect for life and the murder of someone working within the law as it stands.
People such as "Larry" need to back off and see other people as people and not targets.

mike60 attempting civility

eg8r
07-05-2008, 02:14 PM
I am with you llotter. This goofball is definitely making gayle proud.

eg8r

eg8r
07-05-2008, 02:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mike60 educated&well armed against superstition
</div></div>I love to see you post your arrogant ignorance.

eg8r

eg8r
07-05-2008, 02:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wish is that others would have enough faith in themselves to never ever mention religion to anyone else for any reason. If you are a true believer it should remain between you and your god and that should be enough to
sustain your faith. </div></div>You have proven my prior post to be spot on perfect. It is funny to see your arrogant ignorance on display every time I see a post of yours.

eg8r

eg8r
07-05-2008, 02:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting article. The author has been big enough to admit to prior errors in judgement, and actually change her views on the subject. Politicians might call it a "flip-flop", but I like to think of it as enlightenment and maturing.</div></div>I agree it was an interesting article and I do applaud the author for acting and thinking rationally.

Now for your mention of politics and flip flopping...I would not call anything Kerry said during his campaign having anything to do with enlightenment and maturing. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

mike60
07-05-2008, 02:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am with you llotter. This goofball is definitely making gayle proud.

eg8r </div></div>
Please tell us how you stand with Larry. Could it be the desire to revere murdering
snipers? Or is it denying the views of others out of hand. This is about the lack of humanity of those that would murder to enforce beliefs. The story about religious
feelings has nothing to do with this, this has become vendetta against my beliefs
that you two are fools. Am i arrogant? Absolutely. It comes from knowing who i am and i don't need your superstition. I don't know Gayle but i know she is worth any two of you. Reasonable and informed.
I said i would be civil and i will be but i still think you two are blowhard twits.

mike60

LWW
07-06-2008, 04:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good morning from California, LWW, "Larry in VA...James Kopp, A real Hero and martyr" is on the top post of this thread. James Kopp is doing life for the murder
of a doctor that he didn't know except for the fact the doctor preformed abortions.

mike60 attempting civility </div></div>
Everybody knows who he is, you were the only one to interject him into the conversation.

FWIW, Josef Mengele also worked within the law.

LWW

LWW
07-06-2008, 04:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am with you llotter. This goofball is definitely making gayle proud.

eg8r </div></div>
Please tell us how you stand with Larry. Could it be the desire to revere murdering
snipers? Or is it denying the views of others out of hand. This is about the lack of humanity of those that would murder to enforce beliefs.

mike60 </div></div>
Yet that is exactly what you yourself do.

LWW

mike60
07-06-2008, 12:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wish is that others would have enough faith in themselves to never ever mention religion to anyone else for any reason. If you are a true believer it should remain between you and your god and that should be enough to
sustain your faith. </div></div>You have proven my prior post to be spot on perfect. It is funny to see your arrogant ignorance on display every time I see a post of yours.

eg8r </div></div>
How is it wrong to wish that you keep your superstition to yourself? Your complete lack of the principals put forth by Jesus in the Bible are shown by your need to attack
when questioned. If you are so insecure in your faith try praying.
mike60

mike60
07-06-2008, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted By: mike60
Good morning from California, LWW, "Larry in VA...James Kopp, A real Hero and martyr" is on the top post of this thread. James Kopp is doing life for the murder
of a doctor that he didn't know except for the fact the doctor preformed abortions.

mike60 attempting civility

Everybody knows who he is, you were the only one to interject him into the conversation.

FWIW, Josef Mengele also worked within the law.

LWW

Larry puts this little pean to the murdering scum on every post.

Your illogical reference to Josef Mengele is called circular logic. The Nazis were
tried for war crimes because they were in violation of World Laws.
I expect better from you. i don't expect much from the others.
mike60

sack316
07-06-2008, 09:09 PM
Is a religious person speaking of their beliefs really any different than an atheist proclaiming their non-belief regarding the same matter? (I'm really asking, not being a smartass)

Sack

mike60
07-06-2008, 09:28 PM
Sack, No one is better than anyone else. This is one of the most important tenets of our Nation. When someone such as Larry or Ed or LWW responds with personal attacks not even a priest would consider honorable i must say enough. What is so bad about wishing individuals would keep their belief inside their own mind?
When the religious must spread their poison it shows that they don't trust god to be really what they imagine. They strike out and belittle others not of their faith.
If there was a god there wouldn't be war or disease or any other of the many problems we face as humans. If any of these people had ever read the works of Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine they would know that these learned men warned us about religion, and George Washington was against establishing political parties. I expect very little from the unwashed-uneducated fools that we must suffer as a nation but i still hope for our success as a Nation.
mike60

LWW
07-07-2008, 01:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sack, No one is better than anyone else. This is one of the most important tenets of our Nation. When someone such as Larry or Ed or LWW responds with personal attacks not even a priest would consider honorable i must say enough. What is so bad about wishing individuals would keep their belief inside their own mind?
When the religious must spread their poison it shows that they don't trust god to be really what they imagine. They strike out and belittle others not of their faith.
If there was a god there wouldn't be war or disease or any other of the many problems we face as humans. If any of these people had ever read the works of Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine they would know that these learned men warned us about religion, and George Washington was against establishing political parties. I expect very little from the unwashed-uneducated fools that we must suffer as a nation but i still hope for our success as a Nation.
mike60

</div></div>
What's funny is you say this while you continue to attack people.

LWW

mike60
07-07-2008, 01:58 PM
LWW, I'm trying to be less hot headed. Is it unreasonable to hope someone's beliefs
won't require them trying to change everyone else. If a god created the human race
in it's own image the result is flawed. Conversely the god must be flawed. Like that?
I learned it from you, circular logic at its best.

mike666

eg8r
07-07-2008, 02:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How is it wrong to wish that you keep your superstition to yourself? </div></div>Your wish is based on ignorance, why should I sit back and let you continue without voicing what you really are?

eg8r

eg8r
07-07-2008, 02:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When someone such as Larry or Ed or LWW responds with personal attacks not even a priest would consider honorable i must say enough. </div></div>What a goofball, you forgot to mention your name in the list? Is this because you don't exactly believe what you type and feel you are somehow better than anyone else? You have been in attack mode ever since you hit your chin when you stubmled on this site.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What is so bad about wishing individuals would keep their belief inside their own mind?</div></div>Who said it was bad? You might want to go back and read the posts because you obviously do not fully comprehend what was being said. I wish you kept your own ignorant beliefs about religion inside your own head.

eg8r

mike60
07-07-2008, 08:36 PM
Oh fuck you. Is that clear enough? Religion is demented control freak shit. Is that plain enough? Attack this asshole. Tell your god i said fuck off. no more mr. nice guy.

mike666

sack316
07-07-2008, 09:59 PM
wow Mike, that was kinda surprising. I mean, I know your response was right at eg8r, but c'mon. I'm one of those "well I'm not really religious but I'm spiritual" jackasses. I believe in God and Jesus and higher powers and an afterlife and other things I won't delve into for the purposes of this thread... but the point is that even me as a not really any denominational person was like "whoa" when i read that one.

You're more than welcome to look at religion any way you want to my friend, that's your right. But don't down those that do believe in something just because they do. And to be honest your saying that religion is "demented control freak shit" is no different than a religious person pushing their beliefs out there (which you seem to admonish). Sure you are free and more than welcome to bash any religion or religious views you wish to... but don't then turn and complain about those same people expressing their personal beliefs on the matter out in the open. Hello pot, this is kettle.

Sack--- is gonna assume you were just a little fired up when writing that one

mike60
07-08-2008, 12:05 AM
Sack, Sorry about that. More than a little off the hook. It's not what people believe it's the my way or the highway. You are right, i'm not being fair to others beliefs. I am not qualified to judge or condemn. Ed pushes the button and i dance.
I do not wish to influence, change or judge anyones faith or belief. I just get tired of the self glory of some believers. I should just go away and play pool.

mike66&2/3s

sack316
07-08-2008, 02:28 AM
no no friend, the thing is I actually know what you meant... it was just more in the way you said it. I happen to realize that what you don't like is selfish, flamboyant religious types who feel the need to flaunt their beliefs in a holier than thou manner... especially the ones who HAVE to do that to feel good about themselves. I know you didn't mean ALL believers, etc. It's just the way you worded it and put it all together, most people probably wouldn't see it that way. I happen to have the benefit of knowing a few people that are quite similar to you, so when you phrase something as you did I can generally piece together what you probably were trying to say out of what was actually said. Then again, I could be totally off base here lol

But my point here is, no need to apologize to me. I think I actually get it. I'm more concerned about the other people who will read something like that, and what happens then. Whether I agree with you or not on different topics, you're an active contributor here and certainly manage to get some discussion going. Unfortunately that would quickly end when people read that and procede to hit the ignore button on ya. Would hate to see ya wind up going the way of FL... the guy sure did irritate but i kinda miss him at the same time. Wouldn't wanna see the same thing happen with you. that's all

Sack

mike60
07-08-2008, 12:42 PM
Sack, Thanks for the understanding.
mike666

eg8r
07-08-2008, 03:47 PM
When exactly did you think your childish behaviour was ever nice. Like I said before you have been in attack mode ever since you have been here yet you hypocritically forgot to mention your own name.

I like those signatures you sometimes add, they are pretty funny like the one that said something like old and educated. Now that was a real laugh. Thanks for bringing humor to the board, I just wish your venom was not a prerequisite. One day you will grow up and play nice with others.

eg8r

eg8r
07-08-2008, 03:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow Mike, that was kinda surprising. I mean, I know your response was right at eg8r, but c'mon. I'm one of those "well I'm not really religious but I'm spiritual" jackasses. I believe in God and Jesus and higher powers and an afterlife and other things I won't delve into for the purposes of this thread... but the point is that even me as a not really any denominational person was like "whoa" when i read that one.</div></div>The real mike is coming out. He has anger management issues and does not play well with others. He would take his ball and go home right now if his mother would just open the door and let him back in. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
07-08-2008, 03:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I happen to realize that what you don't like is selfish, flamboyant religious types who feel the need to flaunt their beliefs in a holier than thou manner...</div></div>That is all fine and good, but that has not happened here. The goofball fired off at literally nothing.

eg8r

mike60
07-08-2008, 06:52 PM
I will never accept the the dimwitted adoration for james kopp. The mere suggestion of religion is reason enough to test the response of others. I feel strongly about this as it is the main reason for conflict between people. I'm not a nice person. I don't care. I've fought for my whole life against religion and i wont stop. Do what you think is best for you. I will. I am glad you are amused sometimes. I'm grown up and this is what i am. I don't seek anyones approval. You should see me when i'm angry.
you haven't yet. My main objection to the religious is their sheeplike demeanor.
The topic of this thread is a prime example. No hard feelings a pool game won't erase. Cheers.

mike666

llotter
07-09-2008, 06:36 AM
Nothing seems to raise the hackles and the hate of the enlightened, open minded atheist crowd as does any hint of someone's religious beliefs. Civility and logic and reasoned discussion takes a back seat when anyone has the temerity to question their 'self-evident truths'.

LWW
07-09-2008, 07:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LWW, I'm trying to be less hot headed. Is it unreasonable to hope someone's beliefs
won't require them trying to change everyone else. If a god created the human race
in it's own image the result is flawed. Conversely the god must be flawed. Like that?
I learned it from you, circular logic at its best.

mike666 </div></div>
Are you saying you don't try to use your beliefs to change others ... even though you just did it?

Also, how do you know what the intent of the design was? Man cannot be moral without free will.

LWW

LWW
07-09-2008, 07:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LWW, I'm trying to be less hot headed.</div></div>
Really?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh fuck you. Is that clear enough? Religion is demented control freak shit. Is that plain enough? Attack this asshole. Tell your god i said fuck off.</div></div>
How's that working out for you? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

LWW

LWW
07-09-2008, 07:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sack316</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But don't down those that do believe in something just because they do. And to be honest your saying that religion is "demented control freak shit" is no different than a religious person pushing their beliefs out there (which you seem to admonish).</div></div>
Mike is seeking something and a part of him is fighting that urge.

LWW

LWW
07-09-2008, 07:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will never accept the the dimwitted adoration for james kopp. </div></div>
What about the "dimwitted adoration for" Al Gore who has brought about the death of millions through his ethanol scheme?

LWW

LWW
07-09-2008, 07:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing seems to raise the hackles and the hate of the enlightened, open minded atheist crowd as does any hint of someone's religious beliefs. Civility and logic and reasoned discussion takes a back seat when anyone has the temerity to question their 'self-evident truths'. </div></div>
Passive aggressive tendencies are quite common in the far left.

LWW

mike60
07-09-2008, 11:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing seems to raise the hackles and the hate of the enlightened, open minded atheist crowd as does any hint of someone's religious beliefs. Civility and logic and reasoned discussion takes a back seat when anyone has the temerity to question their 'self-evident truths'. </div></div>
Passive aggressive tendencies are quite common in the far left.
LWW </div></div>

LWW&lt; Pardon my ignorance i had no idea you were a shrink. More like you're shrink wrapped. The Atheists you and the murderer worshipper fear so much have seen the benefits of religion and the effects on the world. Billions dead. Billions ready to kill for no other reason than there might be something other than they thought up in the sky. An invisible force that sees everything and knows everything and sits in judgement of everything and created everything including the humans in their own image. That's just so unbelievable i might tell santa and the tooth dairy
If we were created in some gods image then it ain't much of a god.

mike666

Gayle in MD
07-10-2008, 07:44 AM
Dear Mike,
It's been a pleasure to read your posts. I agree, that if one is comfortable and secure in their personal religious beliefs, they wouldn't have the need to go out of their way to crucify others for not agreeing with their take on religion, Jesus, the bible, nor would they have to seek to restrict, or dictate, the personal decisions of others. Isn't that exactly what Jesus taught that we shouldn't abide?

Our country has been going through many growing pains. Our founders certainly anticipated the unamerican attacks against our democratic principles which so called conservatives, and Neocons have been using to tear away at the great American principles which gave birth to our our country. The greatest of those principles, IMO, is the separation of church and state, and interestingly enough, that principle has been under attack from Neocons and conservatives alike, and used as a political wedge by the right, and a justification for many evil actions, including murder!

Reading the twisted ugly thinking of religious fanatics, who can justify anything, and everything, with their mindless plucking and twisting of information from the bible, even their desire to dictate to all others according to their own twisted ideas of right and wrong, can be very frustrating, and aggrivating, to say the least. I can surely understand that you can reach a point of ending it with a big F-U! Sometimes it is the only fitting response!

If organized religion is so great, why is it always at the heart of so much killing and strife throughout history?

Just as we say about guns, it isn't the gun that kills, it's the person who has the gun. The same thing can be said of organized religion. It is often used for very anti-American, and anti-christian actions and inhumane activities. Fundamentalism is very dangerous. Regardless of whether it is al Qaeda, or the Neocon right wing religious nuts in this country, it (Fundamentalism) is still every bit as dangerous when t becomes a movement of sorts. One has only to read some of the sick ideologies which are posted by a few of the religious nuts here on this site to understand the damage they have done to America, and the ill will they can, and do, prosecute against our American principles, and these are but a few of the reasons why another Republican in the White House, who would surely endeavor to please their "Base" with Supreme Court Justices with religious ideologies, would destroy everything that has been accomplished over the last forty years aka human rights to self-determination, privacy, and free choice within the law.

Suspension of critical analysis is never required within the confines of what is real. Like you, I could never live a life based on fantasies, or the gossip and stories of people who lived thousands of years ago. Organized Religion requires that critical thinking be abandoned. That fact alone, gives one pause, and is proof of the dangers presented in such fanatics gaining political power. A quick scan of this thread can send chills up the spine of any critical thinker, which you obviously are, and hence, I, for one, found your response perfectly appropriate! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Love,
Gayle

Gayle in MD
07-10-2008, 07:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Civility and logic and reasoned discussion takes a back seat when anyone has the temerity to question their 'self-evident truths'.
</div></div>

BWA HA HA HA! Pahleeeeze! You have proven youself the most uncivilized person to ever post on this board!

You admire murderrers! And in the same breath, preach about civility, logic and reasoned discussion? !!!

You think you have the right to dictate what a woman can and cannot do with her own body according to YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS, and praise a coward who hides in bushes and murders innocent people, while you accuse people who disagree with you as being uncivil, and unreasoned? !!!

Get some help. Believe me, you need it! Your reality is not a self evident truth! You are a narcississtic potential danger to society!

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
07-10-2008, 07:56 AM
Tap Tap Tap!

G.

mike60
07-10-2008, 04:20 PM
Gayle, We all have our own lives to live. Too bad so many have to live vicariously through the ancient words of others. I would hope to live to see the day that the religious people actually live up to the hype. Keep letting 'em know what's real.

mike60

Gayle in MD
07-11-2008, 10:08 AM
Mike,
Anything based on the suspension of ones critical thinking capacity cannot serve basic human interests, IMO.

The decision "To think" is the hallmark of a mature, well balanced individual, of healthy self-esteem, the very ingredient required for a happy and fulfilled existence in life.

The basis of all organized religion begins with the act of making the choice to accept certain notions, as truth, without critical thinking. That process cannot possibly create peaceful, well adjusted, loving, happy people with a consistant emotional response of compassion for the suffering and needs of their fellow human beings.

IMO, organized religion is responsible for more killing, strife and suffering than any other single phenomenon. The Buddhists are the only religious sect that I admire, but then, we surely don't have to worry that they would seek to rule all others in the world according to their beliefs. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Gayle in Md.

sack316
07-11-2008, 12:03 PM
Mike and Gayle,

Not bad posts there and I do see your points to an extent as far as what y'all have said the last few posts.

But to me, the other side of the coin is we are human. Take all religion out of the world, and I believe we'd still have had just as many wars... only the reasons for some of them would be different. Rather than fighting over religion, for example we'd be fighting over science, or goods, or whatever else we find in the world that one culture wanted but didn't have. Surely if you really believe we are in Iraq for the reasons you seem to believe, then you must accept one such example right there.

Now I don't agree with any one particular religion... otherwise I'm sure I'd classify myself as some sort of denomination. But I don't know of any one religion that does support the killing of others. Obviously, there must be some human element, or some "critical thinking" as it were, that would lead to the violence in the instances you speak of. In fact, if religious people do blindly accept certain notions as truth... well then would there be any wars based on religion?

I do, however, see what you guys do mean about violence and harm that has been caused... that's a fact no person in their right mind could ever deny. But look at us here in America as an example. We have violence, crime, among many other bad things. Evils of the world will exist period. But besides crime and punishment, what other deterrent is there here? For many it is the thought of a "God" watching over them, and a fear of heaven or hell, and the good teachings of whatever their Bible of choice may be, that guides them to living a moral and positive way of life. Of course it's not for everybody, but for some that is what it is. And I shudder to think of what life may be like and what kind of pandemonium we may have did it not exist.

So sure, religion has caused a lot of pain and bad in the world. But don't forget the good that it has caused. That for the people that have died over it, other people have been saved when they otherwise may not have been. As I said, it may not be for everyone... but I respect and think no less of anyone who does use religion as a positive guidance in their lives. Now the hyppocrits, that's another story entirely.

Sack

Gayle in MD
07-11-2008, 01:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but I respect and think no less of anyone who does use religion as a positive guidance in their lives. Now the hyppocrits, that's another story entirely.

Sack </div></div>

The problem is that the hypocrits are able to do the damage they do because they have non-thinking followers, who do not question authority. Authoritarian followers are always required when nations fall into the hands of despots, just as they are when gangs become raging mad dogs.

IMO, the present Republican Party, and particularly this White House, has consistantly demonized any and all who have not blindly followed their authoritarian, unamerican activities. The Religious right wing of the Republican Party, particularly the Jerry Falwell, and the likes, were among the first to demonize even the victims of 9/11, AND Katrina.

The outrageous bastardizing of the political process, caused by the intentional Republican political tactic of blending religion into our elections, and political process, intentionally dividing this country, is completely out of order in a country which was founded on the ideology of separation of church and state. Unless we as a people understand this, and speak against it, and prevent it from continuing, you can kiss democracy goodbye.

The problem with organized religion comes when it seeks to dictate to others according to values unique to its own philosophies, in ways which do not allow that other opinions may be embraced. Science, for example, is the enemy of organized religion. What the hell are they afraid of? Atraid that some scientist will somehow prove that they are wrong about everything? We do have examples in history of early scientists being jailed for proving religious scientific dogma to be untrue. Just as we have proof that Bush censored scientific reports which we pay for, which confirmed that we were going head long into global warming, close to a tipping point, which was being affected by the burning of fossil fuels. Do you think his connections to oil throughout his life had nothing to do with that? Cheney's secret meetings, a hidden energy policy, had nothing to do with his connections to the oil industry? Scientists being paid by this administration, AND the oil industry, to support theories friendly to oil, about Global Warming? What kind of good men would even seek to do such things?

As for your statement in which you seem to suggest that more good is accomplished by organized religion, than bad, I do not agree. Having been a student of psychology, and philosophy throughout my life, I experience the damage in other ways than just according to how many wars have been fought over religious ideology, land holdings, religious fanaticism, and religious fundamentalism. The requirements of submission to an organized religion go against the principles of healthy psychological growth. I don't look to a God to solve my problems, any more than I look to my government to solve them, I look inside myself, the major creator of my own experience here on this earth. Mental illnesses are the greatest cause of strife to humankind, and it is not served by philosophies which suggest that we are not in control of our own lives, thoughts, actions, and decisions, or that some are saved by some imagined good force, while others are punished for bad behavior, and authoritarianism, both the leaders, and the followers, is the antithesis of emotionally healthy individuals, and those who seek to dictate, as well as those who fail to stand agaisnt suthoritarianism, are both psychologically unstable.

Do I try to go around making fun of other people's religious beliefs? Do I attempt to prevent them from praying, or going to church? Hell no. I also do not feel any obligation to agree with them, and usually, they are the ones trying to push their philosophies on others, not the other way around.

This is a very deep subject, which cannot be resolved here, however, I support and respect the right of each of us to decide these decisions for ourselves, but I do not respect the use of fear, or power, in any arena, in any effort to acheive the submission by others to ones point of view, or hidden agenda.

Using the power of the office of the Presidency, for example, to alter scientific studies of global warming, is an evil act, in my world. Just as condemning the use of stem cells which could save the suffering of so many ill people, is also an evil act in my world. Denying birth control in Africa, another evil act, also committed by Bush.

As you can see, to me, the matter of right and wrong is a function of values, and my value is to prevent death, oppression and suffering, that is my supreme concern as a human being. I see George Bush as a man who has caused the death and suffering of untold hundreds of thousands of people, for hidden purposes, and done so in the most deceitful manner. I do not experience him, nor the Republican right wing religious fanatics, as Christian people, I experience them as evil, deceitful, manipulating despots of greed and torture, and particularly John McCain, who failed to stand against torture, after having been tortured himself. No good man could fail to stand against the use of torture, IMO. It is simply inhumane, regardless of what reason my be used to justify it, it flies in the face of everything this country has stood for throughout my lifetime, and surely, no good can ever come of something so very evil in its nature.

Gayle in Md.

sack316
07-11-2008, 01:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As for your statement in which you seem to suggest that more good is accomplished by organized religion, than bad
</div></div>

Just to be clear, I was not stating that either way (more good or more evil, etc.) My point was simply that some good is done through it... as well I granted your point that there are many evils as a result of it also.

Sack

Gayle in MD
07-11-2008, 01:49 PM
I think I got that, friend. It's like the guns. It dependes on what one does with them, right?

Love,
Gayle

mike60
07-11-2008, 02:02 PM
Wow, actual dialogue between adults acting like adults. Just wow.

mike60

sack316
07-12-2008, 12:58 AM
lol Mike, we better cut that out or the casual reader may think we all like each other and get along or something /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

And Gayle, I actually didn't think of it that way... but almost in a sense yes. Then again I suppose that could go for anything. A little wine with dinner can be good for your health... or someone like me can take alcohol and turn it into a little vacation in rehabs and jail.

Guess all those types of things depend on how responsible the hands are that are holding that particular power. And in that instance, I'm with you on the outlandish number of irresponsible hands holding the power of religion

Sack

mike60
07-12-2008, 01:29 AM
Sack, Different strokes for different folks.


mike60

LWW
07-12-2008, 06:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sack, Different strokes for different folks.


mike60 </div></div>
You don't have to explain you and brian.

This is a mature and open minded audience.

LWW

mike60
07-12-2008, 11:05 AM
LWW, Your childish nonsense isn't clever it isn't smart it is expected from someone
without any agenda except anger disguised as juvenile and latent hatred for anyone
showing any difference from the distorted image in your mirror.
Get a life.

mike666 james kopp murdering scum doing forever as some guy's bitch

LWW
07-12-2008, 11:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LWW, Your childish nonsense isn't clever it isn't smart it is expected from someone
without any agenda except anger disguised as juvenile and latent hatred for anyone
showing any difference from the distorted image in your mirror.
Get a life.

mike666 james kopp murdering scum doing forever as some guy's bitch </div></div>
Whoa big guy ... I'm OK with it.

What you and brian do is none of my concern.

LWW

mike60
07-12-2008, 11:27 AM
LWW, Fair enough. It's a good thing your dog can't type.

mike666 ames kopp murdering scum doing forever as some guy's bitch

LWW
07-12-2008, 11:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LWW, Fair enough. It's a good thing your dog can't type.

mike666 ames kopp murdering scum doing forever as some guy's bitch </div></div>
I don't know if my dogs can type or not as they are more behaved when in the house than you are.

LWW

mike60
07-12-2008, 12:12 PM
LWW, Good for your dogs. Setting a good example for you.

mmike666 james kopp murdering scum doing forever as some guy's bitch