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llotter
07-06-2008, 10:51 AM
This list is not comprehensive but a good start in the right direction. The underlying idea in this list is to promote personal responsibility. I would welcome additions to the list that others here think could help secure our future as a free people.a

• We need to end state lotteries
• We need to end pornography
• We need to end entitlements and welfare
• We need to put parents back in charge of education including putting prayer in their own local school if they want.
• We need to end unions
• We need to institute a flat tax of about 5-6 percent, no deductions, and cut spending to levels that the taxes will support (approx 80-90% military)
• We need to make illegal immigration a felony


Most of this agenda list could be accomplished without much in the way of new legislation other that just undoing the historical mistakes. As free and civil society should not be the breeding grounds for its own destruction and those ideas that offer only negatives should definitely not be welcomed even though it may not always be appropriate to legislate against. I think it is the responsibility of leadership to continuously speak out against destructive things and implore others to do the same to prevent them from getting a foothold and spreading.

mike60
07-06-2008, 01:04 PM
Most of this agenda list could be accomplished without much in the way of new legislation other that just undoing the historical mistakes. As free and civil society should not be the breeding grounds for its own destruction and those ideas that offer only negatives should definitely not be welcomed even though it may not always be appropriate to legislate against. I think it is the responsibility of leadership to continuously speak out against destructive things and implore others to do the same to prevent them from getting a foothold and spreading.
Larry in VA...James Kopp, A real Hero and martyr.

More intelligent people than we are created this country just to escape the sort of society you propose. If you allow religion in schools does it include all religions or just your religion? The Unions have given the working people a chance to live decent lives without working seven day weeks for damned little pay. Your perfect little world sounds like Nazi Germany.
mike60

pooltchr
07-06-2008, 05:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This list is not comprehensive but a good start in the right direction. The underlying idea in this list is to promote personal responsibility. I would welcome additions to the list that others here think could help secure our future as a free people.a

• We need to end state lotteries
<span style="color: #FF0000">In a free society, people should be allowed to gamble if they so desire. </span>
• We need to end pornography
<span style="color: #FF0000"> See above</span>
• We need to end entitlements and welfare
<span style="color: #FF0000"> While ending them would be great, I would be happy if we could just get it under control and eliminate the fraud that is involved in our present system.</span>
• We need to put parents back in charge of education including putting prayer in their own local school if they want.
<span style="color: #FF0000"> I agree. The federal government needs to get out of the education business. If the community wants prayer in school, that's fine, so long as nobody is forced to participate. I know voluntary participation was widespread in my high school...especially at exam time!</span>
• We need to end unions
<span style="color: #FF0000"> I think unions played a significant part in building our country. I also believe when they started putting their own prosperity ahead of the business that employ their members, they quickly outlived their usefulness</span>
• We need to institute a flat tax of about 5-6 percent, no deductions, and cut spending to levels that the taxes will support (approx 80-90% military)
<span style="color: #FF0000">Agreed! </span>
• We need to make illegal immigration a felony
<span style="color: #FF0000">It's already illegal, hence the term "illegal immigration". We need enforcement of the laws we already have in place. </span>


Most of this agenda list could be accomplished without much in the way of new legislation other that just undoing the historical mistakes. As free and civil society should not be the breeding grounds for its own destruction and those ideas that offer only negatives should definitely not be welcomed even though it may not always be appropriate to legislate against. I think it is the responsibility of leadership to continuously speak out against destructive things and implore others to do the same to prevent them from getting a foothold and spreading.


</div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000"> That last comment is actually very profound. If our elected officials would put the interests of the country ahead of the interest of their own party, it would be a huge step in the right direction. As long as their number one priority is to get re-elected, they will vote for the things they think people want. The reason we have a Republic and not a Democracy is to prevent a case of mob rule. The "people" don't always know what is best for the country, and often are no better than the representatives, when it comes to looking out for number one at the expense of the rest of the country.
Steve</span>

sack316
07-06-2008, 09:12 PM
I had a response... but Steve said it already /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Get out of my brain Steve!

Sack

mike60
07-06-2008, 09:14 PM
Where to start. Prayer in school? Never. Children are not equipped nor should they be asked to choose a religion. You want to brainwash your kids? Do it at home. Children respond to social pressure by banding together and any outsider is punished for being different. It takes mature people to understand this problem.
The abolishment of Labor Unions? Really. You want to return to workers relying on the better nature of employers? Steve says:"I think unions played a significant part in building our country. I also believe when they started putting their own prosperity ahead of the business that employ their members, they quickly outlived their usefulness." How is this true? The minimum wage isn't enough to raise a family even in Wyoming let alone any East Coast state, and California is the most expensive to live in. Good luck on that one.
Larry is a typical failure drone. No way to be important so he would force his crap
through the usual religious nonsense and debasing the US Constitution to fit his
demented views. Never.
There are fortunately a majority of US citizens that are educated and devoted to the
premise that although our system is flawed it is still the best.
Keep your superstition to yourself. In a showdown you lose badly.
mike60

Qtec
07-06-2008, 09:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">• We need to put parents back in charge of education including putting prayer in their own local school if they want.
I agree. The federal government needs to get out of the education business. </div></div>
You have got it totally back-to-front.
Kids go to school to learn about the world. They don't need religious superstition interfering in their learning with subjectss like science or evolution.
If you want your kids to learn about God then you should send them to Church/ whatever. Thats the place for that but don't bring your personal beliefs- which you can't back up with any proof whatsoever- to school and impose your own personal dogma on the rest.
The Dept of Ed is run by the Federal Govt , not the Church.

Q..........

pooltchr
07-07-2008, 04:22 AM
[quote=Qtec] <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">• The Dept of Ed is run by the Federal Govt
Q.......... </div></div>
And they do a pretty poor job of it!
Steve

Deeman3
07-07-2008, 06:40 AM
You can't legislate morality and you certainly can't legislate good schools. Outlawing Unions is communist in itself and I agree on the separation of church and state. Of course, I don't see the blind elimination of God from church just the teaching of it over science and culture.

Of course, Q, this is not happening in our public schools any more.

Of course, if you outlaw porn, Chopstick and I would have to do way too much personal research. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

While I would not outlaw liberals, I would get them recovery help. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Qtec
07-07-2008, 09:35 AM
What some seem to forget is that Unions developed over 100,s of years of abuse by employers. When the boss was Lord and Master, people got paid a pitance and their lives were of no worth. In the UK they used to make kids of 9 work in mines.
Sure, it did get out of hand when the power of the worker was abused by crooked Union leaders but thats no reason to abolish them or see them as anti American.

Q

Deeman3
07-07-2008, 10:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What some seem to forget is that Unions developed over 100,s of years of abuse by employers. When the boss was Lord and Master, people got paid a pitance and their lives were of no worth. In the UK they used to make kids of 9 work in mines.
Sure, it did get out of hand when the power of the worker was abused by crooked Union leaders but thats no reason to abolish them or see them as anti American.

Q </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000"> I agree. Unions are not all bad but have become as corrupt as their former masters. It has made our teachers as much thugs as the Longshoremen, just a little less hard working. </span>

mike60
07-07-2008, 12:48 PM
This is why i love the USA. Room for everyone and their ideas. And the methods are
available to effect change without violence. At least these days.

mike60

Chopstick
07-07-2008, 04:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't legislate morality and you certainly can't legislate good schools. Outlawing Unions is communist in itself and I agree on the separation of church and state. Of course, I don't see the blind elimination of God from church just the teaching of it over science and culture.

Of course, Q, this is not happening in our public schools any more.

Of course, if you outlaw porn, Chopstick and I would have to do way too much personal research. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

While I would not outlaw liberals, I would get them recovery help. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

I really don't have a problem getting rid of all the porn. Think of how much disk space that would free up across the world and we can always make some more. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

mike60
07-07-2008, 08:32 PM
Fair enough.

mike666

Deeman3
07-08-2008, 07:22 AM
I am not so much against porn if folks don't let it take them over and replace their normal relationships. It seems many fall in love with the porn itself and them ignore their mates and dates, so to speak. By the way, I don't consider nudity as porn.

mike60
07-08-2008, 12:53 PM
There are people that would tell us what to watch, read, say, do, because they themselves have been told what to do for hundreds of years. They call themselves conservatives but they are really obstructionists. Consider that when Cheney started the present war profiteering adventure in Iraq how many staunch he men turned against the French as a country for not wanting to join in this cluster fuck.
Without French troops and Generals we would still be a British colony.
Any agenda for freedom is already in the US Constitution. Posted on this BB and still the defining source for our Nation.

mike60

Deeman3
07-08-2008, 02:10 PM
Mike,

Although I don't know what all that other stuff has to do with porn, I understand and support the right of people to see what they want. I think, just like some other habits, it can be very destructive. With some addicts, just like anything else, it replaces the normal relationship and takes over some lives. That does not mean I think we should outlaw it.

It still has damaged many people who can't control their addiction to it, rather than use it as a stimulus, it can become an overpowering way of life for some. Some can drink alcohol with no problem, some become alcoholics. I would not ban alcohol because some have problems. However, making it availible on the internet is different from public display. Child Porn may be something that true freedom will allow but, on the whole, society is better if we don't allow it to inflame the twisted desires of people perverted enough to act on their wants.

Total freedom, while it sounds good is as bad as total repressions in some cases.

I have disliked the French for many years before the Iraq war. I liked what I saw happening in France for the last 20 years and am fearful the new French President will help pull them back into sane governence. I have no wish to change their course nor their participation in the Middle East. I only spent a few years there so many other may have different views on them than I. I am happy they and the Dutch once stood by us over 200 years ago. We may do the same after their converstion to an Islamic Republic in a few short years.

I'll nver tell you or anyone what they can watch, read or consume. You must have misread me at some point in the past but, if I had child porn, I not send it to you or anyone else, no matter NAMBLA or the U.S. Constitution. Some things are just sick to many of us. Blame our religeon or our history but not Cheney for that.

mike60
07-08-2008, 03:20 PM
Deeman, People are stupid and cruel and then they get bad. Kid porn is so far off the hook i don't care if anyone likes it or not, they are slime. It reminds me that we used to have big businesses that locked children in dusty and dangerous factories for twelve hour shifts. The Unions saved generations of children and their parents from these greedy scum. So when anyone attacks the Unions i come out firing. Think any nonsense you like about the French or whatever but it won't change the facts.
I spent most of two years in France in the 1970's. Really nice people good food and plenty of respect and thanks for the USA's part in WW1&2. Our country is a young child compared to the rest of the world but a lot of us come off as though our way is the only way. You don't have to like them just let them find their own way.
I don't believe France will ever become an Islamic country, no way.
I am easily amused but you right wingers are too funny. It's cool.

mike666

pooltchr
07-08-2008, 06:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't believe France will ever become an Islamic country, no way.

mike666

</div></div>

That is a very bold statement. I hope you are right, but I suspect you may be eating those words in a few years.
Steve

sack316
07-08-2008, 10:56 PM
and as cruel and unusual and repulsive as some things such as child labor (and slave labor for that matter) sound to us now... it was a way of life back then. And I dare even say a necessity for our country to grow as it did in early times. We tend to think as children slaving away in some factory or something, but don't forget how agricultural we were... and how much of that type of labor was used on farms right here where I live. Wrong? I absolutely believe so... but if you really look at it, it was almost a sort of necessary evil. Pa sure couldn't have tilled all that land himself.

Oh, and lets keep the porn. If by some chance it ever happened to be outlawed... I'd be the biggest bootlegger this country has seen since prohibition /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sack

llotter
07-09-2008, 05:28 AM
It is not gambling in general that I am against but having the state sponsoring and advocating gambling. It presents the view that the way to succeed is not through hard work and education but to 'invest' in a lottery ticket. Not something that government should be doing.

Pornography is destructive of the family, an essential building block of a free and civil society. I don't advocate legislating against it but that leaders should speak out against it and now honor those like Hugh Hefner, for example. It will never go away entirely but it could be marginalized instead of popularized.

Unions are communist/Marxist/socialist by nature, workers of the world, unite. They discourage individual initiative and creat a false enemies between 'labor and management'. They force people to pay dues and prevent people from negotiating thier own pay...not attributes of a free and responsible people.

My fundamental theory is that freedom will win the the battle of ideas around the world. Freedom is what made us a great nation in the first place and we need to be eternally vigilant to maintain that freedom if we are going to succeed. We are now in a very competitive environment and if we are going to win, we need to be fighting without the unnecessary burdens of excessive and inefficient government weighting us down. I tend to think that if people were more free and more responsibile for the welfare of themeselves and their family, we would be much more productive and conscious of those things that interfere with that responsibility.

What are the ideas that you might suggest to help creat that 'Shining City on the Hill'?

llotter
07-09-2008, 05:55 AM
Leaders are not just elected officials but business leaders, community leaders, church leaders etc. Leadership in all areas has the burden and responsibility of leading in the 'right' direction. As you say, the leaders of today too often fall prey to power and greed and other of those deadly sins because more often than not, doing the 'right' thing is harder and less rewarding.

llotter
07-09-2008, 06:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">• We need to put parents back in charge of education including putting prayer in their own local school if they want.
I agree. The federal government needs to get out of the education business. </div></div>
You have got it totally back-to-front.
Kids go to school to learn about the world. They don't need religious superstition interfering in their learning with subjectss like science or evolution.
If you want your kids to learn about God then you should send them to Church/ whatever. Thats the place for that but don't bring your personal beliefs- which you can't back up with any proof whatsoever- to school and impose your own personal dogma on the rest.
The Dept of Ed is run by the Federal Govt , not the Church.

Q.......... </div></div>

Don't you trust the parents to do what is best for their own kids? If they cannot be trusted, who can be?

sack316
07-09-2008, 11:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
We need to make illegal immigration a felony

</div></div>

I think this may have been mentioned before, but what about rather than making it a felony and adding more strain to an already overburdened prison system, or simply dropping them off at the border so they can try again... we require them to join the military. Serve the country you are illegally attempting to take residence in for a four or six year tour... and you then earn your right to be here. And then by the time you are out you have your training to become a productive working class citizen, you have learned at least some choice words of English, and you have paid taxes for however long you were in. Not to mention the added man/woman power to our stretched thin military anyway.

Just a random thought

Sack

pooltchr
07-09-2008, 07:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is not gambling in general that I am against but having the state sponsoring and advocating gambling. It presents the view that the way to succeed is not through hard work and education but to 'invest' in a lottery ticket. Not something that government should be doing.

Pornography is destructive of the family, an essential building block of a free and civil society. I don't advocate legislating against it but that leaders should speak out against it and now honor those like Hugh Hefner, for example. It will never go away entirely but it could be marginalized instead of popularized.

Unions are communist/Marxist/socialist by nature, workers of the world, unite. They discourage individual initiative and creat a false enemies between 'labor and management'. They force people to pay dues and prevent people from negotiating thier own pay...not attributes of a free and responsible people.

My fundamental theory is that freedom will win the the battle of ideas around the world. Freedom is what made us a great nation in the first place and we need to be eternally vigilant to maintain that freedom if we are going to succeed. We are now in a very competitive environment and if we are going to win, we need to be fighting without the unnecessary burdens of excessive and inefficient government weighting us down. I tend to think that if people were more free and more responsibile for the welfare of themeselves and their family, we would be much more productive and conscious of those things that interfere with that responsibility.

What are the ideas that you might suggest to help creat that 'Shining City on the Hill'? </div></div>

Excellent points! Our freedom is eroded a little bit more every time the government adds another program, or grows a little bigger. If the government is going to give you something, you will pay for it by giving up some of your freedom.
My solution is quite simply to reduce the size of government. The way this should be done is to allow government only the power and authority outlined in the Constitution. Every law Washington passes takes more freedom, and is usually designed to take in more money.
A perfect example is the proposal to bring back the 55MPH speed limit. It's not to bring down the price of gas. It's not to reduce our use of oil. It's to control people on the highways. Who will benefit? The towns, cities, and states who collect the fines from more speeding tickets.
If government gets big enough, we will have no freedoms left to give up.
Steve

mike60
07-09-2008, 10:16 PM
Larry, You ignorant twit. This is so stupid as to amaze the gods. to wit:
"Unions are communist/Marxist/socialist by nature, workers of the world, unite. They discourage individual initiative and creat a false enemies between 'labor and management'. They force people to pay dues and prevent people from negotiating thier own pay...not attributes of a free and responsible people."

Ok, just for laughs. There are no false enemies between management and labor. Management has been shitting on workers forever. The Unions saved our nation not big business. "discourage individual initiative" where'd you copy that from? Rush Dopefiend? "negotiating their own pay" , on what planet? Apparently most Union Members
eel the dues are a small price to pay for job security as far as it exists. Scum like Cheney would have everyone at minimum wage, running up credit card debt that just gets
deeper and deeper as the banks raise the interest payments.

The chance that any bettor thinks of a lottery ticket as an investment is vague and stupid. Its a chance to get lucky. Someone will win, no bet no win. Lotteries raise a lot of money for education and social services, etc.

Porno is like guns, its here get used to it or ignore it. No other choice. People like to look at nude people, sometimes they have sex. None of your business.

"My fundamental theory is that freedom will win the the battle of ideas around the world." I hope you're correct. Too many of your ideas are mired in the shit of minding others business while you claim to want more freedom. I said it before, you sound like you'd fit right into Nazi Germany.

mike666 .50cal truth

mike60
07-09-2008, 10:34 PM
Larry, Just being a parent is no qualification to teach. Home schooling must be taught by certified teachers in California. Now you say something about Ca=France.
There are laws against religion in school. Brainwash on your own time. This is how obstructionist twits operate. Lie, repeat. Lie, repeat. Maybe some of it will rub off.
How many mothers drove their cars into lakes with four of their children inside drowning all four? Or the father that stomped his two year old to death on a highway because of demons. Parents are not automatically good teachers or even able to always contain their rage or religious stupidity. Stomping a two year old to death to drive out demons because of religion. Don't mention the less than 0ne percent of Islamic believers that want you dead unless you convert. But they have a rich tradition to draw on in Europe there were the Holy wars and the ever popular
Crusades. An interesting factoid. The Childrens Crusade 1212ad. Let Wiki tell:

In the first movement Nicholas, a shepherd from Germany, led a group across the Alps and into Italy in the early spring of 1212. About 7,000 arrived in Genoa in late August. However, their plans didn't bear fruit when the waters failed to part as promised and the band broke up. Some left for home, others may have gone to Rome, while still others may have travelled down the Rhτne to Marseilles where they were probably sold into slavery. Few returned home and none reached the Holy Land
Nicholas was home schooled. See where he got with it. Kick backs on the slaves.
Religion is so classy.

mike666 james kopp, a murdering douchebag doing forever as someguy's bitch.

Gayle in MD
07-10-2008, 08:52 AM
Bravo!

I find it great that a Republican can and does speak for me! You're saving me typing time these days. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I always knew there were still some good Goldwater Republicans around, other than just Deeman and Sack! I'm glad one of them showed up here!

My Grandfather was Chairman of the Maryland State Republican Committee, for years, and a good man. There used to be a lot of good Republican men in the Republican party, like Chuck Hagel, and Gordon Smith. Sadly, the party was highjacked by the Neocons, corporate fascists, and the right wing religious nuts, and hence, many, like you, are disgusted with the party today.

I don't consider myself Republican, or Democratic. I just vote against those who are doing damage, breaking our laws, telling the worst, most damaging lies, (They all lie) and dividing our country, and for the ones who I believe can do the most good for the most people.

Love,
Gayle

mike60
07-10-2008, 02:59 PM
Amen. I find it very fulfilling that Larry and Ed and their ilk are so disturbed by a
moderate Republican. Larry worships an imprisoned thug that murdered a Doctor.
Ed is just demented. LWW is hard to figure but i kind of like his style. If not his message. I never vote the party line. Each candidate is individually selected by me and then supported and i sand 'em money. Republicans such as Chuck Hagel. Of
course Hillary Clinton, just to imagine what she does to Cheneys mindset. Others
numerous and diverse. I love this country and i've defended it with my life and treasure. I consider it an honor. Just lucky enough to have been born here.
Keep 'em on their toes.

mike60

Gayle in MD
07-11-2008, 10:33 AM
You can't keep them on their toes while their heads are up their *****.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

mike60
07-11-2008, 03:42 PM
Gayle, Unless you're the lead dog the view never changes. Have fun.

mike60