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08-09-2002, 08:14 AM

Q-guy
08-09-2002, 08:26 AM
And you think that was OK?

Wally_in_Cincy
08-09-2002, 08:31 AM
If it didn't affect your seeding in the playoffs, sure what the heck. Do it just to hack 'em off.

I'm curious though, how did you play it in order to make your dumping not obvious. Do you really think they didn't realize it? /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 08:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> Last night in APA league play our team, in second place, was playing the first place team. Down already 0-3, we put up a 7 (me), and they put up a 6. We had been trying to catch them, but at this point I realized it was futile. This 6 should be a 7 BTW; he just sandbags all the time.

Early on I detected he was trying to dump so that it would help to keep his handicap at a 6. So early on I decided to dump back. His dumping was obvious, mine was not (hahaha). On the final game, I scratched on the 8 ball. Quickly, I turned around to see his captain burying his head between his hands. I am still grinning this morning.

Just curious, if you had been in this situation, would you have dumped or have played your best pool anyway?
[/quote

I would have dumped, especially since it would not affect the final outcome. and what satisfaction does one get beating a player who is trying to lose? none in my book.

bluewolf

08-09-2002, 08:33 AM

08-09-2002, 08:35 AM
I think your best course of action was to play the match on the up and up, and speak to your LO about it the following day.

Incidentally, the funniest pool-related thing I've ever seen was during a weekly tournament on Long Island. Weekly tournaments are very easy to manipulate (in short, if you lose four weeks in a row, you go down to a lower spot).

Two guys were playing and both trying to go down. It was hilarious. So afraid that the other would dump back, they were conceding games on the 3-ball. They were jumping 9-balls off the table, etc. Fouling three times in a row when they could clearly see the object ball.

It was not long after watching this that I kissed the weeklies goodbye LOL.

- Steve

Tom_In_Cincy
08-09-2002, 08:37 AM
Only in league competition can you hurt someone by letting them win..

If you wanted to hurt their handicap, win all your games in as few innings as possible. This match wouldn't matter at all then.

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 08:38 AM
it was way funny. one time as a two i was put up against a sandbagging three. it was obvious she was a four. as a beginning two i did not have a chance like i would have had if she had been a regular three.

i dont like sandbagging.to me it is cheating.

bluewolf

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 08:44 AM
apa has me listed as a two because i was put up against better players. with the way i am improving, when i go back to competition i will be a top three or mediocre 4. why should i pretend i am a two when i am not.

i want to play my best pool so ill move to a three at least,not sure about 4 cuz that depends on how many games i win,but i can already beat some 4s and am better than them at safety and position, so figure i would at least be a 4 by the end of the session.

i dont think it is fun to not play my best pool.it is a joke. a waste of time, imo.

bluewolf

Rich R.
08-09-2002, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Steve_Lipsky:</font><hr> I think your best course of action was to play the match on the up and up, and speak to your LO about it the following day. <hr></blockquote>
I must agree with you Steve. I can find no good reason to sandbag.
Rich R.~~~my regular game looks like I'm sandbagging sometimes.

08-09-2002, 08:59 AM
I can see why you did what you did, and dumping is a reality in leagues, but two wrongs don't make a right. I blame the LO's for any dumping going on in their leagues. If I were a LO, I'd have a list of suspects and I'd watch them very closely during the season. I'd also warn all league members that if I caught anyone dumping, I'd raise their handicap two balls, automatically. After you do that once or twice, the rest of the players will think twice before they dump.

Fran

Wally_in_Cincy
08-09-2002, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I can see why you did what you did, and dumping is a reality in leagues, but two wrongs don't make a right. I blame the LO's for any dumping going on in their leagues. If I were a LO, I'd have a list of suspects and I'd watch them very closely during the season. I'd also warn all league members that if I caught anyone dumping, I'd raise their handicap two balls, automatically. After you do that once or twice, the rest of the players will think twice before they dump.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

You're right. The LO should deal with this stuff. The fact is though for many of them it's just too much trouble. I don't want to use the word "lazy" cause I'm sure after working all day the last thing the LO wants to do is go sit in a bar for 4 hours scouting players.

08-09-2002, 09:09 AM

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 09:20 AM
i have never sandbagged. but i have been sandbagged. that is what has kept me a two.i know i am a three but as long as i have to play sandbagging threes and fours, there is not much chance to move up. before i play, i look at the other players number and think i at least have a little chance. then they sandbag. people will look at me play and think 'she is sandbagging, she is no two' and that makes me look bad, when i am playing my best pool but am being kept down by sandbaggers.

i watched my husbands team play last week. both teams were ranked the way they were supposed to be. 3s were really 3s etc. i wish more teams were like that.

bluewolf

Chris Cass
08-09-2002, 09:35 AM
Hi Whitewolf,

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't dump for any human on the planet. In your situation, I would have taken a side bet I'd beat the guy. Atleast, woof at the guy if you knew he was dumping. Dumping tells a lot about someones moral fiber. IMO I don't think he was dumping. Maybe playing a 7 made him nervous. I think you should have beat him hard.

People who dump or torpedo someone, don't really know what the games all about to begin with. To me it's disgusting. I know what you were trying to accomplish but, it's still wrong. IMO I think you'll think twice next time, before you sell yourself short. Sandbaggers, always get theirs in the end. They have a reputation and who would ever trust them? They couldn't get a back if the situation arises. When they need one. You couldn't get me to dump or do a saver for anything. They may not get my best game but they will get an honest one.

Regards,

C.C.~~thinks Whitewolf, will regret this later.

Kato
08-09-2002, 09:38 AM
I quit playing APA 3 years ago because of sandbaggers. Plus, I could never really let my game go. I quit as an SL6 but maybe could have made a run at SL7. When I had a chance to lock up a safety and my Team Captain told me to scratch, I knew my time was up.

Now I play in a non-handicapped league where everyone would be an APA 6 &amp; 7, no sandbagging 'cause we're just playing for a trophy and pride.

Whitewolf, I understand why you did what you did. You got a goof out of it and that's cool. Shame on your opponent for dumping.

Kato~~~would rather unscrew and go home.

Kato
08-09-2002, 09:41 AM
There were 7's in our league that I couldn't win a game off in PRACTICE because my Team Captain feared me being raised.

Kato

socrates
08-09-2002, 09:42 AM
Bingo - nail on the head for C.C.

Sandbagging is a fact of life but is unacceptable. There are more 12 handicaps at the golf club I play at that can shoot 75 or 76 at will. I work my butt off to get my handicap down honestly and then come up against these guys and don't have a prayer. Consequently, I play in very few club events any more.

SpiderMan
08-09-2002, 09:50 AM
I think, if you properly mark the S-8 on the socresheet, that this will not assist in raising his rating.

SpiderMan

08-09-2002, 09:51 AM
Unfortunately the league I play in North Frazer Players League has about 40 teams in it .... we have split the league into three divisions in the hopes of stopping sandbagging but no matter what we try and do.. people always do it....Im a nine I would be terribly dissapointed with myself if I didnt make anine every year and one day hope to make a ten (usually only 1 or 2 guys in our league manage this). I liken sandbagging to stealing or fraud...you are cheating everyone else that plays in the league...... would I have done what you did... probably not, I probably would have called this guy a sandbagging piece of $hit and then proceed to go on and kick his ass. (in pool).

08-09-2002, 09:52 AM

08-09-2002, 09:55 AM

Kato
08-09-2002, 10:04 AM
Shoot Whitewolf, I don't even gamble, gave it up years ago. I've never been able to gamble at pool, my nerves go banannas. I ask for all those spots as a goof.

Kato~~~plays ok for fun, plays like a dog for $5

MikeM
08-09-2002, 10:17 AM
I agree with Downtown. I would also go on to tell everybody within earshot (and maybe even use the PA) how bad I beat this guy. I'm not usually one to try to show people up, but if I feel they laid down, I'll celebrate loudly and make sure everyone knows how bad I beat 'em. Hopefully you can shame them into playing their best.

MM

stickman
08-09-2002, 10:21 AM
I would have played my best. My best varies from day to day as does most everyone elses. My thinking on league play is that I put the most emphasis on performing my best. Winning is secondary. There are too many variables in league play that I have no control over. I have no control over my teamates play and no control over my under-rated opponents, so rather than letting winning or losing determine whether I have a good outing, I concentrate on my own performance. I only feel bad if I perform very poorly. I shot fairly well a few weeks ago, when I played a SL2 that was seriously under-rated. I lost, but felt good about my performance. To me, league play is supposed to be fun. It is more of a social activity. If I play in a tournament, or for money, I place more emphasis on winning.

Q-guy
08-09-2002, 10:27 AM
This is exactly why it is no longer possible to play round robin tournaments. You cannot depend on the honesty of the other players. Maybe it is just the way things are today. Honesty and morality no longer matter to many people.

08-09-2002, 10:33 AM

Kato
08-09-2002, 10:41 AM
Yeah, I choke for the $$$$, no question. I also choke in tournaments but if I lose in the tournament I lose my entry fee. Gambling could be whatever. It's wierd but playing $1 9 ball and losing 10 bucks stresses me out more than losing my $10 entry fee. Plus, no matter what the stakes, I've never been comfortable gambling. I once played a set for $10 and was so nervous I thought I'd die. That's ridiculous!!!!!!!! I feel like I'm improving my tournament nerve so that's how I'll go, gambling, no chance.

Kato

Vapros
08-09-2002, 10:44 AM
Usually, this is a fun site, and I would like to see it stay that way, but this extended discussion about whether to dump frosts me pretty good.

You never dump. Never, never. If you were doing this for your living it might make a little difference, but not much. Winning at pool should be less than nothing at all, compared to the value of your integrity and your reputation.

So what if the other guy dumps? Are you trying to be like him? I'd quit the league before I'd go in the tank. Sorry to be ugly about this, but I feel very strongly about it. Let's talk about this a little....

08-09-2002, 10:45 AM

08-09-2002, 10:52 AM

Q-guy
08-09-2002, 10:57 AM
It has been discussed here in the past, that it did not paint pool in a very good light. I doubt anyone here would disagree. The Godfather was a popular movie, but I would hate to think people use it as a moral compass.

08-09-2002, 10:59 AM
This thread is testament to why IMO the APA is a joke, and why our room will never support, host or field an APA team or league. - Chris in NC

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 11:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Vapros:</font><hr> Usually, this is a fun site, and I would like to see it stay that way, but this extended discussion about whether to dump frosts me pretty good.

You never dump. Never, never. If you were doing this for your living it might make a little difference, but not much. Winning at pool should be less than nothing at all, compared to the value of your integrity and your reputation.

So what if the other guy dumps? Are you trying to be like him? I'd quit the league before I'd go in the tank. Sorry to be ugly about this, but I feel very strongly about it. Let's talk about this a little.... [/quote

uhoh. i see ears burning and finger pointing

bluewolf

griffith_d
08-09-2002, 11:15 AM
I never dump,..I always play to win. But, on the other hand, playing safe is a small dump versus going for it. I used to never play safe and you live and die by going for it.

So by losing (hustling) on purpose or winning (tournament) on purpose could be one shot, one game, or one match. It does all depend on the intent and what you are trying to accomplish.

Griff

08-09-2002, 11:28 AM

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 11:29 AM
It has been enlightening to read everyone's opinion. Yes, sandbagging does go on in every sport. I think winning vs honesty is often the choice.

bluewolf

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 11:31 AM
gosh, whitewolf, in no time you will be an addict &lt;G&gt;

bluewolf

Troy
08-09-2002, 11:35 AM
Shame on you for lowering yourself to your opponent's level.

I deal with handicap tournaments every week (USPPA) and see far too much sandbagging and forms of dumping.

Troy...~~~ Doesn't understand cheating

Ryan
08-09-2002, 11:40 AM
Given the situation where your team was down 0-3, I would not have dumped the match. Even though you were not in a position to take over first place that evening, there is no reason to widen the gap between your two teams.

However, if the score was reversed, and you were up 3-0, I would definitely say to dump the match and go for the win in the 5th. Walking away with the combination of a 4-1 victory, and the personal satisfaction of foiling the sandbagger's attempt to dump would be fulfilling on many levels!

Tom_In_Cincy
08-09-2002, 11:42 AM
This is exactly one of the reasons I quit the APA and after going to the big show in St. Louis a couple of times. There were more reasons.. but morality was never questioned. Just sandbagging and politics that I didn't approve.

To each their own, I say. If you enjoy the weekly team oriented competition, go for it.. I for one will never hold it against you or anyone.. Teams help you learn about how to better your game..

I will still recommend the APA to beginners and intermidate players as a way to play often and to learn from the better players about how to play..

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 11:47 AM
Well the guy that was a sandbagging six was sandbagging.
The seven who would not go back to a 6 regardless of whether he won or lost was dumping.

Doenst make it right but i think sandbagging is worse.

bluewolf

Wally_in_Cincy
08-09-2002, 11:47 AM
Lighten up. WW already stated he was just having some fun. I believe WW said previously he was locked in as a 7 for life so it's not like this was gonna help his handicap. He was just depriving the cheater of his opportunity to cheat. It's not dumping in WW's case, it's simply payback.

BTW I have NEVER NEVER sandbagged but in this case I'm all for it.

Wally_in_Cincy
08-09-2002, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris in NC:</font><hr> This thread is testament to why IMO the APA is a joke, and why our room will never support, host or field an APA team or league. - Chris in NC <hr></blockquote>

Before you write off the APA as a joke remember they are the 400 lb. gorilla in this sport. Because of, not in spite of, the handicap system they're continually bringing new players into pool. You of all people should appreciate that.

If you run any kind of handicap league you're gonna have people that try to beat the system. That's a fact. Notice I said "Try". APA is pretty good about ferreting out the baggers. It might take awhile but they eventually get caught.

Wally~~can't believe he's defending the APA /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

SpiderMan
08-09-2002, 12:03 PM
If that is the case, I'd say your league folks are really lax, which would explain why sandbaggers are so successful. I believe scorekeeping should be done only by higher-level players who can understand the subtle deliberate miss and mark it as a defensive shot. And, obviously, the operators have to capture all the data.

SpiderMan

08-09-2002, 12:10 PM

08-09-2002, 12:19 PM
Good point!

The reason I said what I did is because there is a Calcutta that goes to the 1st place team in my area. Seeing as you were in 2nd place, I would not favor distancing my team from the extra cash. If there was no such incentive, I would definitely say sink the SOB!!!

The whole point of the regular session is to make it to Regionals, and as long as you are able to do that, it really doesn't matter how you end the regular session. Besides, how many people are going to complain about missing out on that extra $2 that you would have earned with a victory...

Ryan
08-09-2002, 12:23 PM
I didn't realize that I wasn't logged in when I posted the message.

Ryan

08-09-2002, 01:35 PM
I don't see that as a third wrong at all. I see it as disciplinary action for cheating. If you get caught cheating, then you suffer the consequences.

Fran

08-09-2002, 02:28 PM
we had several teams in our APA league with many under rated players that were notorious for sandbagging.
our LO would always say "yeah, i've heard they sandbag from other other teams" but would do nothing. the only time we saw our LO was when he came around to pickup the money. we (i) had had enough. sooo...this is what we did... we started videoing our matches at our location .. we even offered our opponents a copy for the price of the tape, as many as they wanted. believe me, when on tape everyone wants to look like an ACE and not an A$$. if they sandbag or play at their real SL just send a copy to your LO along with your check or money order. get the picture?

08-09-2002, 02:49 PM

08-09-2002, 02:53 PM
No offense meant, just a difference of opinion, but it seems to me that whatever disciplinary rule for cheating your league has in place isn't working.

Fran

08-09-2002, 02:54 PM
It's hard to say what anyone should or shouldn't do. I just started in the APA- I'm a SL 3 in 8 and 9, and there are plenty of people that seem like sandbaggers. What are you going to do? Probably the best thing to do is when they intentionally miss a shot, BURY them!

CarolNYC
08-09-2002, 03:32 PM
I would've SMOKED his sorry a$$!
Carol

08-09-2002, 03:52 PM
The APA is a great organization for beginners and casual players. But, for those people who want to get really competetive, the league has many flaws. I have played APA for quite a while. I started out wanting to play some decent competition, but now that I have been through the many very disappointing experiences of dealing with APA, I now play one night a week just for fun. I still play to win every match, but I go to be with friends playing our favorite sport once a week. And, I get to stay eligible for singles and scotch doubles tournaments. Those of us who would like to not deal with all of these sandbagging problems really need to be in non-handicapped leagues.

First of all, in my town (hence the anonymous post), the old LO's were extremely unconcerned with the league and were basically just collecting $$. The new LO's took over a very undeveloped, very under-ranked league. By under-ranked, I mean that probably 75% (at least) of the players are sandbagging.

Unfortunately, the LO's are not trying to get the situation under control. There is one team, for instance, that has gone to Vegas 4 of the last 5 years. They are known throughout the league for sandbagging. Once, they told a player he was being kicked off of the team for not losing a match, which knocked him up a S/L the next week. Once, their captain had recently moved to a S/L 6, and played against my team's S/L 7. They were hill-hill, the 6 was shotting the 8-ball, and he scratched on purpose, later saying that he "didn't want to move up to a 7."
Once, they had qualified for city tourney in the fall session, then during the spring session during divisional playoffs, had 3 of their teammates dump their matches big, to keep their S/L's down.

I had a conversation with my LO's about the S/L of one of this teams players. He was playing as a 4, though he should have been a 6. We played our 5 against him. The 4 won 4-0, no sweat. Later on in the season, the guy was still a 4, and we played him against the same 5...same result. I told the league ops about this. Their reply, "Well, after that first match, he did go up to a 5, but the next week, he played a S/L 3, and lost really bad, so he went back down to a 4 again." It astounded me that it never occured to these people that maybe, just maybe, this was on purpose! *shakes head*

So, I do think the LO's are partly to blame for the sandbagging problem. The other thing is that I do not think the scorekeeping, and keeping track of non-performance shots, is done well at all. When I keep score, and I think someone is dumping, then I mark an NP. Many times, it is just obvious. Sometimes, they do it a few times, and its hard to tell, but you know they are at least dumping a ittle, so I may give them the benefit of the doubt here and there. Now, I know that my current team has very new players, most of them have only played 1 or 2 seasons. Noone has ever really explained NP's to them. They get taught how to score innings, and that's about it. So, again, this is another major problem...if the NP's were all scored, players could not sandbag.

It is an amateur league, and it is advertised as a fun, relaxed, anybody-can-play bar league. And that is pretty much what it is. Everyone wants to win, but the casual attitude of some league ops, some team captains, and some players is what lets the dishonest ones get away with all of the sandbagging.

When I want to be serious, I play alone.
When I want to have fun, I let all of the stress and competetion in me give way and play APA...

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 04:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> The APA is a great organization for beginners and casual players. But, for those people who want to get really competetive, the league has many flaws. I have played APA for quite a while. I started out wanting to play some decent competition, but now that I have been through the many very disappointing experiences of dealing with APA, I now play one night a week just for fun. I still play to win every match, but I go to be with friends playing our favorite sport once a week. And, I get to stay eligible for singles and scotch doubles tournaments. Those of us who would like to not deal with all of these sandbagging problems really need to be in non-handicapped leagues.

I like the idea of playing in a non handicapping league too. i would get beat a lot at first but only way to test your ability is to play higher and lower players that are trying to 'play their best pool'

bluewolf

TomBrooklyn
08-09-2002, 05:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> The other thing is that I do not think the scorekeeping, and keeping track of non-performance shots, is done well at all. When I keep score, and I think someone is dumping, then I mark an NP. <hr></blockquote>1. What is an NP?
2. http://www.poolplayers.com/pdf/ANTI-SANDBAGGING-MEASURES.pdf
3. http://www.poolplayers.com/pdf/DefensiveShotsin8-Ball.pdf

Tom_In_Cincy
08-09-2002, 05:22 PM
NP= Non-perfomance shot.
or what some player call a "safety".

08-09-2002, 05:50 PM
I agree with you, Chris. Have you looked at the thread on the subject TO APA PLAYERS RE: STRATEGY FOR LINE-UP? More of the same depressing stuff--weasel-pool. It all reflects a whatever-it-takes-to-win mentality that's inconsistent with good sportsmanship.

Alan Salmon

Chris Cass
08-09-2002, 07:10 PM
The Godfather is corporate America. They don't kill, they have take overs.

Regards,

C.C.~~answers to Don "Voodoo" Corleoni

Voodoo Daddy
08-09-2002, 09:58 PM
I know APA,BCA,USPPA,VALLEY,TAP are a good thing to promote the game we all love. I played APA and USPPA on and off for years...I did sandbag my ass off in USPPA but found I was only hurting myself. I played APA as a 7 and found it to be boring at best. It had its moments but I just cant get into the whole "team" experience, maybe its because I dont feel the others are as intense about winning it as I was. Anyway...sandbag away folks, your only hurting yourselves.

Wally_in_Cincy
08-10-2002, 10:07 AM
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; I agree with you, Chris. Have you looked at the thread on the subject TO APA PLAYERS RE: STRATEGY FOR LINE-UP? More of the same depressing stuff--weasel-pool. It all reflects a whatever-it-takes-to-win mentality that's inconsistent with good sportsmanship.

Alan Salmon &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Please show me where you see something weaselly in that thread. Be specific.

I believe it was about strategy plain and simple. Not cheating.

I think it's elitist attitudes like yours that keep weaker players from entering into competition. Remember everybody starts out as a beginner. The longest journey begins with the first step.

Wally_in_Cincy
08-10-2002, 10:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr>

When I want to be serious, I play alone.
When I want to have fun, I let all of the stress and competetion in me give way and play APA...

<hr></blockquote>

I also do both. I'm not a huge fan of the APA but our LO does at least try to keep the sandbagging to a minimum. I only know of 3 or 4 players who are under-rated but it's only by one skill level. They're just so darn good at it nobody can prove it /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif.

Very well written post. You described the situation very well.

08-10-2002, 11:36 AM
Another problem in APA is that players "see sandbagging" even when it isn't there. For example, a couple of bogus arguments used to support the charge of sandbagging include:
1. "No way he is a 4, he's beat our 7 everytime they've played!" Well, duh, it is handicapped, so beating a 7 is set-up to be as likely as beating a 2. But notice you never hear, he's sandbagging because he has beaten our 2 everytime.

2. "No way he's a 4. Did you see him break and run on the final game?!" This is bogus too, because league players, like all of us, have days when they can shoot lights out and other days when they can't make a ball. I can't tell you how many times I heard this accusation (back in my APA days) against someone on my team when he was having a good night. That may have been the player's only good match in weeks, but still people were quick to make the accusation to anyone who would listen.

There are many other such examples. Then players use this perception to justify their own sandbagging.

Of course real sandbagging goes on all the time. My point is that even when it isn't going on, people see it (often to save face when they lose) and it ends up breeding some nasty feelings between teams. Personally, when I played in APA, I would never assume someone was sandbagging unless I saw strong evidence over a long period of time. Mainly, I just decided not to worry about it. No trip to Vegas was worth the petty worrying that went on in APA.

08-10-2002, 03:23 PM
Wally:

The objective of handicapping is to produce dead-heat matches.

As I read it, the thread is an attempt to identify holes in the handicapping system, holes that savvy captains can exploit to win matches. If this is a fair description of the thread's content, then I think "weaselly" is appropriate; weasels like to squeeze through small gaps.

I don't understand your argument that my attitude about this is elitist and discouraging to beginners, but I will say this: I think that we do beginners a disservice if we teach them that we care more about winning than about character.

Regards,

A.S.

PQQLK9
08-11-2002, 09:13 AM
Martha Stewart Dumped /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Vagabond
09-05-2002, 09:15 AM
It is unfotunate and is here to stay