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Soulfire77
07-07-2008, 08:27 AM
I know for an absolute fact that this company has knowingly sold several people NEW pool tables, charged them full price, and then shipped refurbished USED pool tables to those customers.

Suspect that you have been a victim of this scam?

Here's a few ways to tell:

1. If you have bought more than one of their tables at a time, check the numbers under the pockets. If you have one table that is, for example, 7DD2929P and another that is 7DD9847P (indicating a large distance between the two numbers) - you have probably been ripped-off. New tables built at the same time will have numbers that are close together, like 7DD9847P and 7DD9849P.

2. Remove the top, check the cloth. If you see a lot of extra staple holes (indicating a cloth change) - you have probably been scammed.

Eric.
07-07-2008, 09:11 AM
Do you have a first hand experience or was this a friend of yours that it happened to?


Eric

Rail Rat
07-07-2008, 07:28 PM
I am surprised that Diamond would do that, they are one of the few manufactures left who still make their table in the states and not in China, and they pride themselves in their work.

I would certainly get in touch with them on this and get some reply.

Deeman3
07-08-2008, 07:24 AM
Sort of hard to take a one poster seriously without more details. I would give them the benefit fot he doubt until more is known.

Greg/Diamond
07-08-2008, 09:14 PM
If you know this for as you say "an absolute fact" please share this information with me where something can be done. I'm the founder of Diamond and I'm retired from day to day operations and need information from customers to keep me informed...However since 95% of our sales are used tables I have doubts, but will keep an open mind and listen to what you have to say!! I can be reached as 812-989-6665 as this is my personal cell..Also we don't use staples on our tables putting the cloth on. We've found a better glue called fast bond #10 and have been using it for quite a while, so I'm especially interested in what you are saying....Greg/Diamond.....PS I hope you're post is an attempt to correct a problem you think exists and not something else.

After thinking about what you said about our numbering system. We run approximately 100 tables at a time for each model..It's way to expensive to change a setup for a certain type of table without running several. Also a complete table is not made one at a time. Many parts are run at different times and the numbers on parts are not sold in any order...As far as I know I don't know of any unhappy customer or anyone who thinks what you have said in you're post. If you are the one who is unhappy, please give me a chance to help!!!!

av84fun
07-09-2008, 12:18 AM
How about that. Greg is retired from active operations and STILL jumps in to address a problem issue.

It doesn't get any better than that folks!

Regards,
Jim

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg/Diamond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you know this for as you say "an absolute fact" please share this information with me where something can be done. I'm the founder of Diamond and I'm retired from day to day operations and need information from customers to keep me informed...However since 95% of our sales are used tables I have doubts, but will keep an open mind and listen to what you have to say!! I can be reached as 812-989-6665 as this is my personal cell..Also we don't use staples on our tables putting the cloth on. We've found a better glue called fast bond #10 and have been using it for quite a while, so I'm especially interested in what you are saying....Greg/Diamond.....PS I hope you're post is an attempt to correct a problem you think exists and not something else.

After thinking about what you said about our numbering system. We run approximately 100 tables at a time for each model..It's way to expensive to change a setup for a certain type of table without running several. Also a complete table is not made one at a time. Many parts are run at different times and the numbers on parts are not sold in any order...As far as I know I don't know of any unhappy customer or anyone who thinks what you have said in you're post. If you are the one who is unhappy, please give me a chance to help!!!! </div></div>

av84fun
07-09-2008, 12:27 AM
In addition to my other post, are you saying that the CUSHIONS are used?

Is the slate in anything other than as new condition (its a few million years old you know.)

Are there defects in the rails or the top rail surfaces?

Is the cloth used?

If not, what's the difference? There are no moving parts on pool tables so it's not like rolling the odometer back on a used car and selling it as new.

And it's not as though they got the "used" table for FREE and are therfore making an excessive profit.

I'm just curious what your agenda is when your very first post here openly accuses one of the greatest pool table manufacturers on the planet of fraud...which is what you have done.

Regards,
Jim



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soulfire77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know for an absolute fact that this company has knowingly sold several people NEW pool tables, charged them full price, and then shipped refurbished USED pool tables to those customers.

Suspect that you have been a victim of this scam?

Here's a few ways to tell:

1. If you have bought more than one of their tables at a time, check the numbers under the pockets. If you have one table that is, for example, 7DD2929P and another that is 7DD9847P (indicating a large distance between the two numbers) - you have probably been ripped-off. New tables built at the same time will have numbers that are close together, like 7DD9847P and 7DD9849P.

2. Remove the top, check the cloth. If you see a lot of extra staple holes (indicating a cloth change) - you have probably been scammed. </div></div>

Billy_Bob
07-09-2008, 08:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg/Diamond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I'm the founder of Diamond and I'm retired from day to day operations and need information from customers to keep me informed...</div></div>

Boy! Good old fashioned customer service! Nice to see this in these days of little or no customer service. And from the top guy no less! (For you younger folks out there, this is the way things used to be with *every* company...)

Rail Rat
07-09-2008, 10:06 AM
Well Soulfire77, here's the man himself. I hope you reply to him and follow up in this forum. Diamond Table's name is at stake here.

-brad

New2Pool
07-09-2008, 01:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In addition to my other post, are you saying that the CUSHIONS are used?

Is the slate in anything other than as new condition (its a few million years old you know.)

Are there defects in the rails or the top rail surfaces?

Is the cloth used?

If not, what's the difference? There are no moving parts on pool tables so it's not like rolling the odometer back on a used car and selling it as new.

And it's not as though they got the "used" table for FREE and are therfore making an excessive profit.

I'm just curious what your agenda is when your very first post here openly accuses one of the greatest pool table manufacturers on the planet of fraud...which is what you have done.

Regards,
Jim
</div></div>

I don't think Diamond is selling used tables as new. That would be very stupid if it was the case. But, if they were using parts from an old table on a new table I would consider that unethical. Lot's of things last a very long time but that does not make taking parts of a used product and putting it on a new one acceptable. If the auto dealer sold me a new car and it later turned out that some parts that don't wear much, such as bumpers and windshields, were used to replace damaged parts of the new vehicle I would not consider the "Frankenhicle" to be new.

But just to be clear, I highly doubt that a company that is known for quality would do such a thing because all it would take would be getting caught one time and the company would lose all their trust and really that is the main thing a premium company sells.

av84fun
07-09-2008, 09:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: New2Pool</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In addition to my other post, are you saying that the CUSHIONS are used?

Is the slate in anything other than as new condition (its a few million years old you know.)

Are there defects in the rails or the top rail surfaces?

Is the cloth used?

If not, what's the difference? There are no moving parts on pool tables so it's not like rolling the odometer back on a used car and selling it as new.

And it's not as though they got the "used" table for FREE and are therfore making an excessive profit.

I'm just curious what your agenda is when your very first post here openly accuses one of the greatest pool table manufacturers on the planet of fraud...which is what you have done.

Regards,
Jim
</div></div>

I don't think Diamond is selling used tables as new. That would be very stupid if it was the case. But, if they were using parts from an old table on a new table I would consider that unethical. Lot's of things last a very long time but that does not make taking parts of a used product and putting it on a new one acceptable. If the auto dealer sold me a new car and it later turned out that some parts that don't wear much, such as bumpers and windshields, were used to replace damaged parts of the new vehicle I would not consider the "Frankenhicle" to be new.

But just to be clear, I highly doubt that a company that is known for quality would do such a thing because all it would take would be getting caught one time and the company would lose all their trust and really that is the main thing a premium company sells. </div></div>

Respectfully, I disagree....depending on the part in question. As I stated above, if used CUSHIONS were used that would be unethical since cushion rubber is clearly a time-limited part.

But how about rail bolts? They could last hundreds of years.

How about sub rails that are pretty intricate and VERY important pieces. Should a perfectly sound and engineered sub rail be cut up for kindling?

I'm a pilot and there are tens of thousands of airplanes flying that are 50+ years old. MANY parts are ORIGINAL. Even ENGINE parts that are certified to be up to as new specs can be put into what are called "zero time" engines which means they are virtually new.

To be clear, any part that is TIME LIMITED ought not to be used in a "new" table. But "used" sub rail, for example, that is "as new" is one of those "what difference does it make" issues.

By the way...LOTS of steel and plastic...even fabric that is used in brand new cars has been "recycled" and is not "virgin" material.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT in an abundance of caution and to avoid even the suggestion of impropriety, I think it would be a good idea for Diamond or any other manufacturer to include a statement such as:

"ABC Inc. uses only the highest quality parts available. Some such parts may be acquired in "as new" condition."

Regards,
Jim