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08-09-2002, 09:46 AM

Cueless Joey
08-09-2002, 10:37 AM
I read Karen Corr gambles against MEN. The Fusco brothers I believe back her up. Allison I heard gambled at one time losing some 20k getting a spot from a road player.
Only rumors of course.

08-09-2002, 10:59 AM
Pete and Jimmy Fusco are cousins, not brothers.

Barbara

heater451
08-09-2002, 11:17 AM
The "Fusco Brothers" is a newspaper cartoon.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-09-2002, 11:55 AM
It is against the WPA rules for playing members to gamble. There has been fines and warnings give to players that have been discovered gambling.

For what that is worth..

08-09-2002, 12:22 PM

08-09-2002, 12:29 PM
I'm no pro,... but gambling is something I do often.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-09-2002, 01:42 PM
If there were a WPA hall of Fame? sure.. only baseball has a rule against gambling on baseball..

fallout of the 1919 world series .. Black Sox scandle.. and the winner of that world series was Cincinnati.. coincidence that Pete Rose, banned from baseball for gambling played for Cincinnati. Duh?

08-09-2002, 01:43 PM
WPBA players aren't allowed to match-up for money within, I believe a 10 mile radius of any tournament site, and I think, one week before and one week after an event.

Notice that I didn't use the word 'gamble' because I'm not so sure that matching up for money is gambling, without side-betting. I can understand not allowing the players to play for money at the tournament site, however, if it's not illegal, I don't see why it should be condemned off-site. I understand it's about upgrading the image of the game, but so far I don't see any vast improvement as a result. Do you? LOL

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
08-09-2002, 01:46 PM
Improvement on the image? none at all, as far as I am concerned.

Pool's image is tough to gauge anyway. Who has the correct image of Pool? and what do you think a correct image would be?

08-09-2002, 02:20 PM
gam·ble [gámb'l ] verb (past gam·bled, past participle gam·bled, present participle gam·bling, 3rd person present singular gam·bles)

1. intransitive verb play games of chance: to play games such as poker or roulette that involve risking money, or bet on horse races or other events, in the hope of winning money

2. transitive verb bet money: to bet a sum of money on the outcome of an event or competition


Yeah, I'd say "matching up for money" counts.

08-09-2002, 02:47 PM
That's one definition. Another is the law, which to my understanding, varies from state to state, county to county.

Fran

08-09-2002, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: DragonSlayer:</font><hr> gam·ble [gámb'l ] verb (past gam·bled, past participle gam·bled, present participle gam·bling, 3rd person present singular gam·bles)

1. intransitive verb play games of chance: to play games such as poker or roulette that involve risking money, or bet on horse races or other events, in the hope of winning money

2. transitive verb bet money: to bet a sum of money on the outcome of an event or competition


Yeah, I'd say "matching up for money" counts. <hr></blockquote>


nope, you're missing it.

the legal definition rests on 3 points. prize, consideration and chance. the first two settle fairly easily as what you put up, and that does not have to be money, and what you hope to get. the third point is where it get's sticky. in most reasonable interpretations it isn't chance, it's skill.

dan

heater451
08-09-2002, 03:11 PM
What if the match-up is considered a two-person tournament, with the loser paying the winner's entry fee? (Or, both pay the same entry toward the pot--winner take all.)

I think that there's enough grey-area for all. . . .



==========================

08-09-2002, 04:18 PM
Well, we could certainly use an image that sticks in the minds of people. Even though Walter Tevis made the name Minnesotta Fats famous, I think it was the person---Rudolph Walderone---who made it a household name. Lee Trevino, and Chi Chi Rodriguez with his sword striking, were characters in golf that put themselves in the minds of the audience in a positive and fun way.

I think we could use a few more characters in the game, but not malicious, ugly or nasty in their ways...just kind of fun-loving..the type that can get the audience to smile. If you can make them smile, they'll come back for more.

Fran

bluewolf
08-09-2002, 04:19 PM
any exchange of money is gambling in my book.back in the old day the loser bought the winner a glass of beer, but still gambling.

bluewolf

08-09-2002, 04:57 PM
Playing in tournaments is gambling too. You are betting (the entry fee) that you can win more money/prizes. How many people would play in a tournament with a $30 entry fee and the winner gets a $10 trophy?
I enjoy tournaments and gambling, but it is what it is. There's no need to pretend like it's anything else.

Maybe the WPBA has that 10 mile rule to keep lesser known pros from going out and hustling in the town hosting the event. That could give the WPBA a bad name and eventually they might not be welcome back.

08-09-2002, 05:03 PM
Yep, I guess I missed the point. I thought we were discussing the moral implications of gambling instead of the legal implications. Although I'm still not entirely clear as to how the legal implications of gambling affect the image of the game. Please clarify.

08-09-2002, 05:09 PM
I think you've really hit on something here Fran. It would be great to see more fun emotions while watching the pros play. There have to be many pros who have the personality for it. Maybe the game just requires such intense concentration to play at that level that they cannot afford to let their guard down even for a minute. What do you think?

Maybe that's why I enjoy watching the trick shot competitions. The players can step up to the table, pull off an amazing shot, then ham it up a little. They don't have to be concerned that if they miss the shot, their opponent will step up and run out the rest of the match.

08-09-2002, 06:18 PM
Quote: DragonSlayer: Maybe the WPBA has that 10 mile rule to keep lesser known pros from going out and hustling in the town hosting the event. That could give the WPBA a bad name and eventually they might not be welcome back.

PURITANS RUNNING THE WPBA?
That the WPBA has this rule is unfortunate and misguided. Going out into the community and playing the locals is exactly what WPBA Pros should be doing.

1. They are professionals, but they don't make enough money. They need the money, and playing pool is how they make it.

2. This is the stuff legends are made of. This is the stuff movies are made about.

3. The local players will have stories to tell for years to come. It's good for the local pool hall, the local restaurants, hotels, and all the people that work in them. If it becomes known that there is action to be found at WPBA tournements, players from out of the local area may come in, thereby giving a further boost to the local economy.

4. Pool players are not so naive that when they see a female stranger who can play pool show up a few days before a WPBA tournament in the area, that they can't figure out what’s going on.

5. No one is twisting anyone’s arm. These are activities performed between cognizant, consenting adults.

6. No one should play for more money than they can afford to lose. If they do, the WPBA should not worry about it. They should not deprive their players of the opportunity to try to make a few dollars. They should not try to be a social awareness agency.

08-11-2002, 08:51 AM
Pete Fusco backs Karen when she matches up with the men. He also doesn't put her in really tough action, from what I've seen. I did hear that she put up her own cash against a strong regular from the Joss tour, giving the last two, and TORTURED him.

PQQLK9
08-11-2002, 09:37 AM
In the Aug. edition of BD in Mike Geffner's column about Monica Webb he mentioned that she was fined $500 once for gambling at a tournament site...however it did not prevent her from being elected to the WPBA board.

08-11-2002, 10:21 AM
Many women pros are sadly in a similar position as the men pros. Pool is what they are best at, and until there are more sponsors and more prize money out there many of them must resort to gambling to help bring in some extra income. Most of them gamble against male players as opposed to matching up against other female pro players. It's undoubtedly much easier money for them to find a half decent male player with a big ego who thinks there is no woman on earth who can beat him at pool - even if it is a huge mismatch which it usually is. Who can blame them? Unlike the men pros, there seems to be a bond / comraderie among most of the regular women tour players that they don't really wish to play against each other for money to prove themselves.

There is rarely ever any gambling among the women at a poolroom at or near a women's pro tourney site - as is certainly not the case with the men pros. Another reason for that is that the top female players just don't have the time between matches and are almost a guarantee to make it to late Saturday night tourney matches - as opposed to the men's events where even the top players may be knocked out of the draw early and have more free time for an action session. The lesser known female players (once they are knocked out of the event) are the ones that are far more likely to found playing a money session in a poolroom somewhere. Just out of curiosity, I wonder if Corey's no- show at a Saturday morning match in this weekend's pro tourney had anything to do with a possible late-night or all-night session? That would be my first guess.

As for Karen, she does match up with very good regional (but not nationally known) players from time to time - sometimes getting weight, sometimes playing even and sometimes giving weight. As she is not that comfortable or familiar with the other players on the scene and in negotiating the game, the matchups are very likely arranged for her by someone else.

IMO these quality sessions (in addition to her daily practice regimen) are the main reasons why she has now surpassed Allison in the tournament rankings. There is no better preparation IMO for tournament pool (if there are no tourneys to be found) than putting yourself in the pressure cooker of a money session - even if it's your backer's money to lose. - Chris in NC

08-11-2002, 08:12 PM
Howdy folks,
Many years ago Ewa Lawrence expressed (in ?Billiards Digest or ?pool and billiard magazine)that to improve one`s game one does not have to play pool with a bet.She expressed her opinion in response to an earlier suggestion( advice) made to her saying `` u got to gamble,to improve your game.with out gambling u are not going to be a good player``.
I personally believe that Life itself a gamble. Cheers
Vagabond

Chris Cass
08-12-2002, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> It is against the WPA rules for playing members to gamble. There has been fines and warnings give to players that have been discovered gambling.
For what that is worth.. <hr></blockquote>

Hi Tom,

I don't think the pros whether male or female worry about fines from the WPBA or the other organizations, at 2 in the morning. I think they worry more about losing a good sponsor. After all the money may be good for one night but a sponsor is good for all yr. JAT

Regards,

C.C.~~the games all about rep.....

08-12-2002, 01:05 PM

Tom_In_Cincy
08-12-2002, 05:37 PM
Chris,
That is true, but what about all the players that don't have good sponsers?

08-12-2002, 07:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Pete Fusco backs Karen when she matches up with the men. He also doesn't put her in really tough action, from what I've seen. I did hear that she put up her own cash against a strong regular from the Joss tour, giving the last two, and TORTURED him. <hr></blockquote>

Gee, would his first name have been Davin? LOL Heard Kim Shaw robbed the Rockaway billiards tournament as a "C" player too! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

PastPrime
08-12-2002, 08:20 PM
When Karen Corr came through Fresno she would only play one guy who is 71 years old. She beat him two sets to one for $200 a set. He told her before they started that he had to leave at 8:00 to attend his wife but he would be back at 9:30 and play her until they closed at 2:00. After they played three sets she said that was it with him. She refused to play two other men unless she got the last two from one player or two games to seven to another. She was traveling with another lady and handled her own money.

08-12-2002, 09:49 PM
Whitewolf, from what I hear Karen still has diligent practice sessions almost daily, in addition to playing in many more tournaments as well as the occasional $ sessions against quality opponents. Whether (as is the dilemma with Allison) she'll have the passion and discipline to maintain that regimen after 5 years of being ranked #1 and already having the financial security (at least by pro pool standards) of a comfortable long term endorsement contract - we'll just have to wait and see.

As to your other observation, I agree that Karen does seem to have mastered the Sardo rack break better than Allison - hitting it very softly yet still managing to make at least one ball and an open shot nearly every time.

Allison relies heavily on her sound technique and fundamentals, which allows her the luxury to get away with far less regular practice time than Karen puts in. Her practice / preparation is largely limited to binges in the week or so leading up to a tournament and certainly not the day in/day out sessions that Karen consistently puts in 50+ weeks a year.

Sadly, the difference right now between being ranked #1 and #2 on the WPBA tour amounts to a relatively insignificant $$ difference in terms of purse, lucrative endorsements or any other possible rewards or benefits. That title of being #1 and World Champion used to mean a great deal to Allison in motivating her to continue to work hard on her game. Of course she'd still love to win every tournament she enters, however, having been there for so long and having experienced all that, I just don't think it passionately drives her anymore. Particularly considering what she's been through the past 2 years away from the game with the illness and passing of her Dad - which seems to have resulted in her re-examining and re-evaluating the priorities in her life. Right now the grind of daily practice regimens in order to increase her chances of regaining her #1 ranking (and the few thousand bucks a year that would go along with it) is apparently not that high on her list.

Allison held the title of World Champion and #1 in the world by completely dominating the tour for 5 consecutive years. What did she get to show for compiling such a devastating record - not much at least to this point. Hopefully a BCA Hall Of Fame induction will be forthcoming sometime in the future, regardless of whether or not the BCA chooses to recognize or ignore her 10 year dominance in the women's world snooker scene.

Fact is, Jeanette Lee still seems to be the most popular, most recognized and likely the most financially rewarded female pro player on the tour - even though she's never been a world champion and has won a grand total of 1 WPBA tourney since 1999.

Due largely to Allison's gifted natural talent, textbook fundamentals and incredibly strong mental game, very rarely do her occasional misfires (due IMO to her limited preparation / practice time) surface to cost her - in a tight match against a top opponent or when someone really steps up their game to put the heat on her. Sadly though, still only a very few female players (other than Karen) have the skill and experience to beat Allison in any given tourney match. - Chris in NC

08-13-2002, 08:54 AM
After re-reading last night's message which I posted on this topic, I need to clear up a few things. Firstly, I didn't mean to insinuate that Karen must practice more than Allison because she doesn't have the sound fundamentals / technique that Allison has. Karen's fundamentals are also extremely rock solid. This is precisely why if Karen continues to practice hard and do everything she can to improve her game, it will be extremely difficult for Allison to wrestle back the #1 spot, even if Allison does put in the work. Also, if Karen ever makes the switch and adjustment to wearing contacts while playing, her game will skyrocket even more!

Secondly, I just wanted to make it clear IMO that J&amp;S Sales - Janet Shimmel and John Nusser (the exclusive U.S. Cuetec distributor) as well as Cuetec have from the start been the one sponsor in our industry that has been very supportive of Allison - and has rewarded and compensated her accordingly for her outstanding tournament performance as well as her professionalism at all times.

I just wanted to make this clear, as my original post seemms to insinuate that I felt no one in our industry had appropriately rewarded Allison for her achievements in the game. - Chris in NC

08-13-2002, 09:10 PM
In my 40 years of playing and watching this game, I feel that in most 1-on-1 money matches, only one of the players is gambling. And that usually turns out to be the one that loses. Jim R.

08-14-2002, 01:00 AM
partial snip:

Also, if Karen ever makes the switch and adjustment to wearing contacts while playing, her game will skyrocket even more!
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::


Can you please explain this. I'm 50. I started wearing glasses in early 2000. The few places I went to all strongly suggested I buy the progressive glasses with multiple prescriptions for reading distance (short), about arms length distance (medium), and longer distances.
Would I also benefit if I switched to contact lenses. I never really asked about them much. When I first started wearing glasses I was told most people that needed bifocals shouldn't even consider buying contacts.