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JWasson
07-15-2008, 12:27 PM
OK, I've been shooting pool for over 40 years and I'm still asking stupid questions. What's the deal with the different lengths of Ferrules and the different materials they are made of.
I never really gave it that much thought before, but I guess I'm getting older and maybe curiosity has gotten the best of me.

First of all, I'm not really positive of exactly what the ferrule is supposed do. I think I have an idea, but never asked. I figure it probably has something to do with keeping the wood from splintering at the tip end of the cue because I could imagine that happening if it weren't used and the tip was glued to strait wood. Someone can set me strait I'm sure on this.

OK, for the first real question. What is the differences in the lengths of Ferrules? Some of the newer low deflection shafts have really short ones while others seem to have ferrules that look to be more of the lengths I've become used to looking at for the past 40+ years.

Now the next real question. What difference does it make what material the ferrule is made of. I see them available made from Ivory, Ivorine III (whatever that is), plastic, woven fibers, Polycarbonate, Elforyn (whatever that is too), brass, and even laminated wood of a sort, just to name some of the different materials.

Thanks
John

Deeman3
07-15-2008, 02:23 PM
I think Ferrules are there to have the leather tip adhered to and, as you say, not have the wood damaged. I also think they are far less important than we think although they are reduced in length and some have holes in them to reduce deflection somewhat.

I like my ivory ones but its just a matter of having used them for so long on all my cues. I don't think I'd notice the difference in any real way.

JWasson
07-15-2008, 07:12 PM
I have shot with all sorts of different cues in my life. I even used one with a brass ferrule when in Australia. Brass ferrules are real popular Down Under it seems. In all honesty, I don't think I ever noticed a difference in the cue that I could definitely attribute to the ferrule. I hear players and read advertisements from manufacturers stating that a given particular ferrule is so much better, but in all honesty I was just curious on what supposedly made a particular ferrule better than any other.
Do you suppose it is possible that in the past I may have attributed the playability of a particular cue to the tip or to the shaft taper when it was possibly due to a better ferrule, or am I trying to read more into it than credit is due?

mike60
07-15-2008, 07:39 PM
Ivory or ivorine. Threaded on to the shaft without glue.

mike60

JWasson
07-15-2008, 08:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ivory or ivorine. Threaded on to the shaft without glue.

mike60 </div></div>
OK Mike60, I appreciate you're opinion on this, but can you explain why? I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. What makes Ivory or Ivorine better in your opinion? What does Ivory or Ivorine do that you feel is better than other materials? Do you feel that the length of the ferrule is important and what length do you think is better? Why?

mike60
07-15-2008, 09:37 PM
J, I like the feel of the organic ivory, fairly long, it seems to me at least to soften
the hit and let the tip stay on the ball better. But i played all night once with a borrowed cue thinking it was an ivory a ferule and loved it but found out it was textured hard white plastic. The closeness of ivory to hardwood in feel has been
written about and whether or not to glue or thread to the shaft remain personal
choices. Some of the best hitting cues like Paul Drexler pfd cues have threaded
ferrules. I unscrewed one once, i screwed it back on and it hit like a champ.
I think the tip is more important to the hit. English Snooker players like brass ferrules, very short and thin with a thin tip and they have great finesse and control.
I use a Southwest cue, extra long taper cut for me by Brooklyn's Richard Hsu at
Action on the N poolroom. Medium Moori tip, nickel shape, and it flexes just right. I can't stand Predator or other extra rigid shafts, i like the lively feel.

mike60

JWasson
07-16-2008, 03:46 AM
I'm getting the picture I think, although I'm pretty hard headed. I can see how an Ivory ferrule could soften the blow and could, in theory, make the tip work better. I can see that. I suppose the laminated wood used on the OB-1 shafts may do something similar but I wonder how those will hold up in the long run. Like I played with a cue with a brass ferrule in Australia and it felt as good as most of the other cues I have ever shot with that weren't mine.
do you suppose that the qualities of the Ivory ferrule may even be more evident with a hard tip? It would seem that it may make a more noticeable difference with the harder tips as the Ivory, in theory, would have a certain amount of softness to it.
Thanks for the help!
John

mike60
07-16-2008, 02:14 PM
John, It seems the tip-ferrule combination would effect the feel of the hit. The resonance of wood and ivory may be close but it all comes down to personal taste. When i switched from a steel jointed cue, a pfd, to a wood to wood jointed cue, Southwest, it helped my game improve. Have fun.


mike60

JWasson
07-17-2008, 11:51 AM
I suppose that the length of the ferrule could change the way the tip reacted when it strikes the cue ball as well. I'm guessing that the shorter the ferrule, the stiffer it would be as there would be less material (whatever material you chose) to absorb the impact. Am I on the right track? http://wassonhuntingservices.com/smiley/smilies/noclue.gif

mike60
07-17-2008, 02:47 PM
John, Sounds right. Threaded or slip and glued on would most likely have a difference also.

mike60 stay safe soldier

Bob_Jewett
07-17-2008, 07:28 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm getting the picture I think, although I'm pretty hard headed. I can see how an Ivory ferrule could soften the blow and could, in theory, make the tip work better. I can see that. ... </div></div>
I don't think that is correct. I think that wood is softer (more compressible) than ivory, so the shaft will compress more than an ivory ferrule during the hit. Further, I think the amount that either compresses is small compared to how much the tip compresses, so most of the tip-ball interaction will be determined by the tip. Also, it is not clear that you want to prolong the tip-ball contact to get better (more?) spin, and there is a good argument that too long a tip-ball contact will cause more miscues.

The main reason for a ferrule is to protect the end of the shaft from splitting and from sloppy chalking. A major effect of the ferrule is to increase the end-mass and squirt of the shaft. Some players like low-squirt shafts.

I don't use a ferrule -- a fiber pad is sufficient for the most part to keep the shaft from splitting.

JWasson
07-17-2008, 08:30 PM
OK, so let me see if I got it strait now..
A shorter ferrule would likely allow for more compression.
Wow, that is just the opposite of what I was thinking.
I can see that the wood would be softer. Hmmm

Bob_Jewett
07-18-2008, 02:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, so let me see if I got it strait now..
A shorter ferrule would likely allow for more compression.
.. </div></div>
I think that for either a long or a short ferrule, the amount of compression is an insignificant factor in how the stick hits the ball. Or rather, the difference in compressibility of the ferrule compared to wood is not significant.

Bambu
07-18-2008, 02:51 PM
I'm not sure, but someone told me the ivory is easy to clean. He said it stays white, but doesnt effect playability.

Bob_Jewett
07-18-2008, 05:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm not sure, but someone told me the ivory is easy to clean. He said it stays white, but doesn't effect playability. </div></div>
Yes, it doesn't affect playability if you like a relatively high-squirt shaft. If you prefer a low-squirt shaft, it is very difficult (impossible?) to have a standard ivory pool ferrule and low squirt.

JWasson
07-18-2008, 07:26 PM
OK, I'm lost Bob..
Did I miss something?
Why would it imposible for a low squirt shaft to work with an Ivory ferrule? Is Ivory that different than other materials used to produce ferrules?

JWasson
07-18-2008, 07:34 PM
What do you think the results would be if I machined a ferrule from aluminum or from a hard aluminum alloy or possibly nickel. Do you think that would make any difference? A nice light and hard high nickel content aluminum alloy would surely have no "give" to it when the tip strikes the ball. Do you think that would make a low squirt shaft work better?

cushioncrawler
07-18-2008, 10:56 PM
I agree with Bob Jewett. A fibre (bakelite etc) pad iz all u shood need. I uze triumph tips, they hav a brown bakelite(??) backing. If i want to uze a bluediamond etc that duznt hav its own backing i uze an old triumph backing.

I dont remember ever having any trouble with my zero ferrules -- but i hav had a few brass ferrules that hav kum loose -- i cut theze loose ferrules off. And once i hadta cut a couple of mm off a black bakelite(??) ferrule that had started to mushroom-over (on my dufferin maple one-piece snooker cue). And a few times i hav seen the end of a cue break off during play, ie the brass ferrule and the wood in it.

Nowadayz i dont hav much problem with tips coming loose. With brass ferrules i hadta uze a triangular file to roughen the brass (before uzing my 5 minute araldite). Nowadayz i only hav trouble with the triumph tip itself -- this uzually fallz in 2 after a couple of weeks -- but no worryz, i just araldite the leather onto the backing.

And, re chalk causing damage to the unprotected shafts -- i dont hav any problem -- i firstly cut the new block in half, and uze the half block. And i periodicaly grind the block on concrete to remove any "skirt" that develops. madMac.

mike60
07-19-2008, 12:03 PM
John, Low squirt or predator type shafts are popular because people think a very stiff shaft won't deflect off the contact point on the cue ball and therefore be a more constant less miscue hit. I personally think the predator type shaft is a placebo for a untrained stroke. It feels different but unless your stroke is in the groove is isn't
going to help. Mosconi and Miserak used plain wood shafts and they played just fine. Like i posted before I had the taper lengthened for my Southwest shafts to
increase the feel and lose the stiffness. I've been playing for 50 years and my stroke is smooth and easy to replicate. Pool is becoming like golf with new equipment
being made and hyped when the old equipment has worked excellently for a 100 years or more.
Work on developing a smooth stroke. Always stroke 3, 4, or 5 times before hitting the cue ball. Work on your stance so you aren't putting weight on your arms or
wrists. A cantilever stance and a smooth easy stroke will enable you to improve more than new equipment, short squirt or not. Good luck in the Dayroom.

mike60

Bambu
07-19-2008, 01:10 PM
Thats good to know, thanks bob.

1Time
07-19-2008, 01:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In all honesty, I don't think I ever noticed a difference in the cue that I could definitely attribute to the ferrule. </div></div>
You would need to compare a particular brand/model cue with different ferrules before giving yourself a fair chance at comparing them. Comparing different ferrules on different cues won't give you a good enough feel for any differences.

For example, a good comparison would be between a low deflection shaft (A) versus the same brand/model low deflection shaft (B) that's had its ferrule changed to something else.

1Time
07-19-2008, 01:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I can see how an Ivory ferrule could soften the blow and could, in theory, make the tip work better. I can see that. </div></div>
Softening the hit does not necessarily make the tip work better.
This may be preferred by some and work better for them, but not for others.

Bob_Jewett
07-20-2008, 09:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... Why would it imposible for a low squirt shaft to work with an Ivory ferrule? Is Ivory that different than other materials used to produce ferrules? </div></div>
Yes. It is more dense, and in particular for my use it is more dense than wood. Squirt seems to be determined primarily by the mass in the first six inches of the cue stick.

JWasson
07-21-2008, 03:53 AM
So by using the term "dense" I assume you are refering to the weight? Or, am I way off?

Bob_Jewett
07-21-2008, 02:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWasson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So by using the term "dense" I assume you are refering to the weight? Or, am I way off? </div></div>
"Density" is defined as mass per unit volume.

mike60
07-21-2008, 02:34 PM
John, I believe he meant hardness.

mike60

Bob_Jewett
07-21-2008, 03:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John, I believe he meant hardness.

mike60 </div></div>
No, I really meant density. The denser the material used for the ferrule, the more it will weigh. Predator and OB1 ferrules are relatively light even compared to typical plastic ferrules.

mike60
07-21-2008, 05:06 PM
OK, density.

mike60

JWasson
07-21-2008, 06:48 PM
OK, I'm old and it taks a bit for something to soak in. I think I got it fnally though. Ha ha
Thanks