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MAC
07-16-2008, 01:34 PM
I am not new to pool yet I dont always stay focused on the same ball all the time. Sometimes I focus on the cueball before the shot other times its the object ball. I was just wondering which way you should be doing this and why??

Deeman3
07-16-2008, 02:03 PM
I look rapidly between the object ball and the cue ball with my last eye focus on the cue ball. So, I think cue ball is the right answer although I bet others may disagree.

mike60
07-16-2008, 02:08 PM
The object ball. Look where you want to hit. Set up on the cue ball, get your stroke going and focus on the contact point on the object ball.

mike60

DeadCrab
07-16-2008, 02:09 PM
Object ball, except when breaking or using a lot of english.

BCA Master Instr
07-16-2008, 02:22 PM
Object ball last in my SOP.

Cue ball last in my XOP

SPF=randyg

MAC
07-16-2008, 02:28 PM
Thanks for all the responses, most of the time I find myself looking looking at the object ball last. Then I start noticing Im doing it and I get nervous and think I'm gonna miss hit the cue ball haha.

SpiderMan
07-16-2008, 02:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deeman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I look rapidly between the object ball and the cue ball with my last eye focus on the cue ball. So, I think cue ball is the right answer although I bet others may disagree. </div></div>

Must be a Memphis thing. I looked at the cueball last for years. It's still hard for me to look at the OB last, but I shoot better when I do.

SpiderMan

New2Pool
07-16-2008, 02:54 PM
I am new to pool but everything I have read says look at the object ball last except on the break. Once you get your stroke grooved you know where you are going to hit the cue ball so there is no need to look at it.

Of course, I still can't run the table yet but hey I can read a book with the best of them!

dr_dave
07-16-2008, 03:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I looked at the cueball last for years. It's still hard for me to look at the OB last, but I shoot better when I do.</div></div>Ditto.

Dave

bataisbest
07-16-2008, 06:21 PM
Object ball. I glance back and forth between the CB and OB until I'm certain about the point I want to contact on the Object ball.Before pulling the "trigger", I stay focused on the OB and shoot.

zombiemodder
07-16-2008, 07:01 PM
OB

pooltchr
07-16-2008, 07:21 PM
Most of the time, my eyes are locked on my target when I shoot. There are a few shots where what I need the cue ball to do is far more important that what the object ball will do. For shots like those, it might be better to focus on the cue ball. Decide what is most important in the shot.
Steve

av84fun
07-16-2008, 09:58 PM
Of all the pros asked this question...and most have been asked...the only one that I am aware of who says (said) he/she looks at the CB last is Ralf Souquet.

I would be shocked to have it proven to me...and it would have to be proven--not urgan legend--that more than 5% of the greatest players of all time looked at the CB last.

IMHO, it borders on the foolish to deny the superiority of a technique that is used by such a huge majority of the best players.

So to anyone who would recommend that technique, I would ask them if they are a current or former World Champion.

Of course, it is true that great instructors don't have to be champion players themselves, but they have to know how champions play...and why and must be very, very cautious about teaching methods that are rejected by the vast majority of great players.

Just my $0.02.

Regards,
Jim



Regards,
Jim

skin
07-16-2008, 10:17 PM
Object ball, but at different points in the final stroke depending on the shot. At the very last instant during a slam break, for example.

Fran Crimi
07-16-2008, 10:24 PM
For 90 percent of the shots I look at the object ball first. I do look at the cue ball first for jump shots and some close shots where I am standing more upright.

Fran

skin
07-16-2008, 10:42 PM
For 90 percent of the shots I look at the object ball first. I do look at the cue ball first for jump shots and some close shots where I am standing more upright.

Fran


Good point.

What do you look at last on a one cushion rail-to-ob bank shot? I sometimes "feel" the angle better by looking at the ob last instead of the rail if there are no potential obstructions. On most of them, though, I look at the contact point on the rail.

Not a question to get free professional advice. Just curious is all.

Fran Crimi
07-17-2008, 06:36 AM
I usually look at the contact point on the rail as well. If there are obstructing balls close by, I may pick a spot on the table before the rail to look at rather than the rail --- a putting technique commonly used in golf.

Fran

Rich R.
07-17-2008, 06:52 AM
I'm not sure what I was looking at for many years.

Then, I took a lesson from Scott Lee and he told me I should be looking at the cue ball last. After a good bit of time, I formed the habit of looking at the cue ball last. It wasn't easy. I'm an old dog and new tricks come slowly.

Then I went to Randy G's pool school and he taught that we should be looking at the object ball last. Needless to say, I was totally confused. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Randy did say that Scott had changed his stance on this issue and was teaching the object ball last approach.

It has taken me a long time, but I am forming the habit of looking at the object ball last. I think I am more successful with the object ball last approach, but I can't tell for sure.

One thing I do know for sure is that I hope no one discovers something else to look at first. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

JoeW
07-17-2008, 08:58 AM
I would be interested in comments on these ideas as I have no real foundation for it, just what seems to be logic.

The hand follows the eye, therefore it is logical to watch the OB during the final stroke. I think that most everyone agrees with that.

When the object ball is tracked after the shot the hand continues to follow the eye. In that split second after shooting it is likely that watching or anticipating the OB roll will cause the stick to be taken off line and the shot is missed because of poor follow through due to anticipating the OB roll. Therefore, one should not only watch the OB during the last stroke, one must train their eye to see the hit on the OB to insure proper follow through.

On the topic of follow through and control of the cue, I just realized, after several years of play and much thought on the topic, that the best hand grip appears to be placing the stick in the “V” or notch between the thumb and first finger. This tends to lock in the wrist and does not allow the fingers to swing the cue from side to side or to pull it off line with a wrist twist. Apparently, getting the fingers out of the swing, to the extent possible, contributes to a better swing. I am simply thinking here and would appreciate opinions pro and con.

One last new idea (to me), use an imaginary piece of thread between the center of the CB and OB and between the OB and the pocket. I had been using an imaginary line on the table and now find that the thread through the center of the balls is “better.” Someone, I forget who, said that all one needs to do is roll the CB down that line (now thread in my thinking) and the OB has to go in. I don’t know why but this has contributed to more confidence in my shots and better shot making.

SpiderMan
07-17-2008, 09:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy did say that Scott had changed his stance on this issue and was teaching the object ball last approach.
</div></div>

Good! But I'm still waiting for BOTH of those guys to admit that transferred spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan

JoeW
07-17-2008, 10:16 AM
Spiderman,
Seems to me that is a very simple test and your statement is easily supported by simply placing a ball where the OB lands after hitting a rail with and without side spin on the CB.

Anyone who does it will see that you are right. It is not an opinion, its a fact.

dr_dave
07-17-2008, 11:33 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spiderman,
Seems to me that is a very simple test and your statement is easily supported by simply placing a ball where the OB lands after hitting a rail with and without side spin on the CB.

Anyone who does it will see that you are right. It is not an opinion, its a fact. </div></div>FYI, I have lots of video, physics, and shot example evidence here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#spin

I agree: It is fact ... not opinion.

Dave

BCA Master Instr
07-17-2008, 11:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy did say that Scott had changed his stance on this issue and was teaching the object ball last approach.
</div></div>

Good! But I'm still waiting for BOTH of those guys to admit that transferred spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan </div></div>

SPIDERMAN: Transfered spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion. I have never heard Scott say different.....SPF=randyg

Vapros
07-17-2008, 02:03 PM
I've had the same problem for many years, and I suppose it is because I have no depth perception. One eye has always been very weak. I get a good look at the shot when I'm standing, but then when I get down on it, it suddenly looks a bit wrong and I find myself making a crooked stroke to try to correct it. It's nearly always a bad move, but very tough to resist. Sometimes going straight through with the stroke is easy, but sometimes it's very hard. At such times, I can switch to looking at the CB last, and it helps.

Last fall I had a lens implant in the weak eye, and got some real improvement in my vision, but not in my depth perception. The doctor said I probably won't - not after all these years. It's a big problem shooting over the mechanical bridge. Sometimes I hardly reach the CB with the stroke.

Bambu
07-17-2008, 04:50 PM
Whats worked well for me is a short pause before the final stroke. The pause helps me get a longer last look at the object ball.

Scott Lee
07-17-2008, 08:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy did say that Scott had changed his stance on this issue and was teaching the object ball last approach.
</div></div>

Good! But I'm still waiting for BOTH of those guys to admit that transferred spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan </div></div>

SPIDERMAN: Transfered spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion. I have never heard Scott say different.....SPF=randyg </div></div>

That's right! What we don't believe is that it's significant enough to really matter...which under many circumstances, it isn't!

Scott Lee

1poolfan
07-18-2008, 08:36 AM
As many have mentioned, the OB is the last thing you should look at in pool but here is a reason why.

It has to do with what I have termed the "Ouija Board" effect. For those that don't know; a Ouija board is a game where one places their had on a pointer and asks a question. The triangular pointer appears to move by itself and people swear they didn't move it.

But scientists have proven it is the people themselves moving the pointer and 'they don't even know it'. How can this work? It is because our brain is wired to do exactly that. Take care of all the little muscles that move us around. Think about walking, we do it with any thought what-so-ever and we do it perfectly.

How does this relate to pool?
We must pick an exact spot on the OB ball and see that spot until the cue ball has left the tip of the cue or else our brain will move muscles, unknown to us, to steer the cue ball to where ever we are looking. This is of course the same reason why everyone misses easy shots, even the pro's.

The interesting thing is; it also works in reverse. Even if you are not playing your best, if you see the 'exact' spot you are looking at clearly, your brain will guide the cue ball via the cue to the exact spot you are looking at.

I have an exact practice routine that allows you to perfect this technique. It will take anyone's game to a new level to where they should 'almost' never miss. You really want to see the exact spot long enough to see the cue ball hit it anyway. If you don't, you will never know why you missed the ball. But most of the time, if you don't see the cue ball hit the exact spot on the OB, then you will miss the shot anyway.

JoeW
07-18-2008, 09:47 AM
1poolfan
What is the "exact practice routine" that you use? It sounds interesting.

Jeannete Lee, in support of your position, and with which I agree, says that one should see the smallest possible dot on the OB.

I have now included using a thread between the centers of the balls (not a line on the table) and this seems to yield excellent results.

1poolfan
07-18-2008, 09:55 AM
I know there are many smart people out there with many different ideas. Mine is probably not the last, but so far I have not found anything better, which can be proven. And that is the key, this works every time whether you 'believe' in it or not. In fact, the only way it cannot work is if you take steps to not do it.

It would be a rather long post I am wondering if I should just start a new thread or use this one? What do you think?
I am ready to post a new practice routine that can change the way everyone plays the game, including the pros. I for one am disappointed that many pro's still miss easy shots. But I understand now why they do. If adopted, I feel this routine will allow use to play and see played the most amazing pool to date.

So should I just start a new thread?

Fran Crimi
07-18-2008, 10:04 AM
I just reread my post and I have no idea why I wrote the word "first" instead of 'last' but I definitely meant 'last' ---- in BOTH SENTENCES. Sheesh.

Fran

SpiderMan
07-18-2008, 10:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy did say that Scott had changed his stance on this issue and was teaching the object ball last approach.
</div></div>

Good! But I'm still waiting for BOTH of those guys to admit that transferred spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan </div></div>

SPIDERMAN: Transfered spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion. I have never heard Scott say different.....SPF=randyg </div></div>

Randy,

Scott has been very adamant in denying spin transfer from CB to OB, and I thought you were also. Here is a discussion from about 18 months ago, where Scott repeatedly asserts that CB spin doesn't transfer to the OB, and that both he (Scott) and you (RandyG) were teaching this in pool school.

In this thread Gayle in MD, who noted that she was taught "spin doesn't transfer" in pool school, was publicly questioning the sense of it. Dr Dave, Chopstick, Bob Jewett, and I tried to convince Scott that spin does transfer, but to no avail. Here are a couple of excerpts - there are many more if you re-read the thread:

<span style="color: #FF0000">
In post #234199, on 12/05/06, Scott Lee wrote to Bob Jewett:
__________________________________________________ ________
Quote Bob_Jewett:
Any instructor who says that side spin can't be transferred to the object ball or that spin-induced throw doesn't exist is ignorant of the facts. If they teach such nonsense, they are doing both the student and other instructors a disservice.
__________________________________________________ ________

Well Bob...Any time you would like to come to pool school, Randy and I will be more than willing to allow you to demonstrate what you profess to be our ignorance. We have an empirical example that you can use.

Scott Lee
Edited by Scott Lee (12/05/06 03:09 AM)</span>

Another post:
<span style="color: #FF0000">
In post #234198, on 12/05/06, Scott Lee wrote to Gayle in MD:

"Putting right english on the CB will NOT put left english on the OB. We prove this over and over in pool school, even to skeptics."</span>

I rest my case /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan

JoeW
07-18-2008, 10:46 AM
Yes, please start a new thread. I for one, would be very interested.

SpiderMan
07-18-2008, 11:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott Lee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy did say that Scott had changed his stance on this issue and was teaching the object ball last approach.
</div></div>

Good! But I'm still waiting for BOTH of those guys to admit that transferred spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan </div></div>

SPIDERMAN: Transfered spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion. I have never heard Scott say different.....SPF=randyg </div></div>

That's right! What we don't believe is that it's significant enough to really matter...which under many circumstances, it isn't!

Scott Lee </div></div>

It would be difficult to play bank pool (or one-pocket) at a competent level if spin transfer weren't "significant enough to matter".

We've hijacked this topic - better start a new thread if you really want to discuss it all over again - assuming all the original participants are still willing.

SpiderMan

Deeman3
07-18-2008, 12:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1poolfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I for one am disappointed that many pro's still miss easy shots. But I understand now why they do. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">If you can prevent all easy misses among the world's pro players from now on out, you will die a very rich man.

Yes, start the threat but you have set yourself a very big task in my eyes. </span>

Fran Crimi
07-18-2008, 12:48 PM
Start a new thread about why I accidentally wrote 'first' when I was thinking the word 'last'? Well, that should be really exciting. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Joe, I'm assuming you were referring to some other conversation further along in the thread, right?

Fran

JoeW
07-18-2008, 01:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1poolfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there are many smart people out there with many different ideas. Mine is probably not the last, but so far I have not found anything better, which can be proven. And that is the key, this works every time whether you 'believe' in it or not. In fact, the only way it cannot work is if you take steps to not do it.

It would be a rather long post I am wondering if I should just start a new thread or use this one? What do you think?
I am ready to post a new practice routine that can change the way everyone plays the game, including the pros. I for one am disappointed that many pro's still miss easy shots. But I understand now why they do. If adopted, I feel this routine will allow use to play and see played the most amazing pool to date.

So should I just start a new thread?
</div></div>

This is the comment I was referecing Fran.

Reversing first and last is common. Now if you think there is a frog on your pool table because it is green we have something to talk about.

Contrary to many peope I think that an inability to spell is a genetic defect. It must be because I can't spell without reversing letters, words and in general mangeling the language without access to a spell checker. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

BCA Master Instr
07-18-2008, 03:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Rich R.]Randy did say that Scott had changed his stance on this issue and was teaching the object ball last approach.
</div></div>

Good! But I'm still waiting for BOTH of those guys to admit that transferred spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan </div></div>

SPIDERMAN: Transfered spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion. I have never heard Scott say different.....SPF=randyg </div></div>

Randy,

Scott has been very adamant in denying spin transfer from CB to OB, and I thought you were also. Here is a discussion from about 18 months ago, where Scott repeatedly asserts that CB spin doesn't transfer to the OB, and that both he (Scott) and you (RandyG) were teaching this in pool school.

In this thread Gayle in MD, who noted that she was taught "spin doesn't transfer" in pool school, was publicly questioning the sense of it. Dr Dave, Chopstick, Bob Jewett, and I tried to convince Scott that spin does transfer, but to no avail. Here are a couple of excerpts - there are many more if you re-read the thread:

<span style="color: #FF0000">
In post #234199, on 12/05/06, Scott Lee wrote to Bob Jewett:
__________________________________________________ ________
Quote Bob_Jewett:
Any instructor who says that side spin can't be transferred to the object ball or that spin-induced throw doesn't exist is ignorant of the facts. If they teach such nonsense, they are doing both the student and other instructors a disservice.
__________________________________________________ ________

Well Bob...Any time you would like to come to pool school, Randy and I will be more than willing to allow you to demonstrate what you profess to be our ignorance. We have an empirical example that you can use.

Scott Lee
Edited by Scott Lee (12/05/06 03:09 AM)</span>

Another post:
<span style="color: #FF0000">
In post #234198, on 12/05/06, Scott Lee wrote to Gayle in MD:

"Putting right english on the CB will NOT put left english on the OB. We prove this over and over in pool school, even to skeptics."</span>

I rest my case /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Hi Spiderman: I can't speak for Scott but I can for myself.

In Pool School III we address the different types of THROW. One of the major things we discuss is the lack of DEPENDABILITY, RELIABILITY and CONSISTANCY involved in "SIT". Yes, spin may be transfered from the cueball to the objectball in many circumstances. The results may very from NONE to SOME, which is very hard to bet your last dollar on.

I have seen demos that have impressed me, although they may have to be repeated a couple of times for the results to happen.

Yes, "SIT" does exist somewhere......SPF=randyg

Fran Crimi
07-18-2008, 04:23 PM
Joe, maybe you're using Flat mode and can't see where you are putting your posts or your clicking on the thread on the home page which brings you to flat mode. Have you tried threaded mode? I like that mode better, myself. To me it's easier to see where to put my post when I want to respond to someone's post.

When your post shows up under mine, I think you're responding to something I wrote but instead, you're really responding to someone else's post which makes things confusing.

Fran

skin
07-18-2008, 10:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fran Crimi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just reread my post and I have no idea why I wrote the word "first" instead of 'last' but I definitely meant 'last' ---- in BOTH SENTENCES. Sheesh.

Fran </div></div>

Fran:

I understood what you intended to write. Thanks for answering my question in my follow-on post.

skin

Alfie
07-19-2008, 12:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Sometimes I focus on the cueball before the shot other times its the object ball. I was just wondering which way you should be doing this and why?? </div></div>

World famous snooker coach, Frank Callan, writes, "[...] which ball, cue ball or object ball, should you be looking at when you actually strike the cue ball? (A golfer, tennis player, footballer or cricketer does not have this problem as he has only one ball to worry about).

Here, I want to make an analogy with a darts player. Just imagine Phil Taylor playing darts. He has his waggles - his preliminary address - just the same as a snooker player. After this preparation he throws the dart. He is also luckier than a snooker player because he has only one thing to look at. We'll say he wants the bull for game.

All the time he is doing those waggles his eyes are on the bull. At the very second he releases the dart his eyes are still on the bull if he wants to have any chance of hitting it. So if you want to direct the cue ball to the correct spot on the object ball in the same way that John Lowe looks at the bull, you have to have your eyes on that spot on the object ball when you hit the cue ball.

To take the analogy further, Phil Taylor wants double six for the game. Double six is at three o'clock on the board. He has lined up and got his eyes on the double six. Suppose, in the split second before he throws the dart, his eyes switch to the bull. He now throws the dart. Because he has switched his eyes from double six to bull there is no way that dart is going to go in double six. No darts player would ever do this of course. I merely make this analogy because this is what happens so often at snooker.

Translated into snooker terms you may be on the black with a three-quarter-ball pot into a top pocket, but you don't just want to pot the black, you also want to split a cluster of reds. You line up correctly on the black, but just before you come through to hit the cue ball your eyes switch not to the point on the black you are trying to hit but to the pack to see if you have opened the reds. Have you any chance of potting the black? This is what happens without players realizing it. They miss the black because they are looking to see what will happen to the cue ball when their eyes should still be on the object ball.

Another very common fault is to switch your eyes to the pocket to see if the ball has gone in! This is another way to invite disaster.

When you play a pot, two things are required of your brain. One is to pot the ball you are aiming at, the other is to send the cue ball along the line you want it to go for position.

Your eyes are not going to help you hit the cue ball to open the reds. Where you put the tip to the cue ball - right or left of center, above or below - how much you move the cue in preparation for the shot, the strength of the stroke: all this will take care of the positional side of the shot. But you have to pot the black and that is why you have to have your eyes on the spot on the object ball that needs to be hit.

Every decent player knows this, but not every decent player does it. Never forget: eyes on the object ball when striking the cue ball!"

SpiderMan
07-20-2008, 12:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpiderMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Rich R.]Randy did say that Scott had changed his stance on this issue and was teaching the object ball last approach.
</div></div>

Good! But I'm still waiting for BOTH of those guys to admit that transferred spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan </div></div>

SPIDERMAN: Transfered spin DOES influence the OB angle off a cushion. I have never heard Scott say different.....SPF=randyg </div></div>

Randy,

Scott has been very adamant in denying spin transfer from CB to OB, and I thought you were also. Here is a discussion from about 18 months ago, where Scott repeatedly asserts that CB spin doesn't transfer to the OB, and that both he (Scott) and you (RandyG) were teaching this in pool school.

In this thread Gayle in MD, who noted that she was taught "spin doesn't transfer" in pool school, was publicly questioning the sense of it. Dr Dave, Chopstick, Bob Jewett, and I tried to convince Scott that spin does transfer, but to no avail. Here are a couple of excerpts - there are many more if you re-read the thread:

<span style="color: #FF0000">
In post #234199, on 12/05/06, Scott Lee wrote to Bob Jewett:
__________________________________________________ ________
Quote Bob_Jewett:
Any instructor who says that side spin can't be transferred to the object ball or that spin-induced throw doesn't exist is ignorant of the facts. If they teach such nonsense, they are doing both the student and other instructors a disservice.
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Well Bob...Any time you would like to come to pool school, Randy and I will be more than willing to allow you to demonstrate what you profess to be our ignorance. We have an empirical example that you can use.

Scott Lee
Edited by Scott Lee (12/05/06 03:09 AM)</span>

Another post:
<span style="color: #FF0000">
In post #234198, on 12/05/06, Scott Lee wrote to Gayle in MD:

"Putting right english on the CB will NOT put left english on the OB. We prove this over and over in pool school, even to skeptics."</span>

I rest my case /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Hi Spiderman: I can't speak for Scott but I can for myself.

In Pool School III we address the different types of THROW. One of the major things we discuss is the lack of DEPENDABILITY, RELIABILITY and CONSISTANCY involved in "SIT". Yes, spin may be transfered from the cueball to the objectball in many circumstances. The results may very from NONE to SOME, which is very hard to bet your last dollar on.

I have seen demos that have impressed me, although they may have to be repeated a couple of times for the results to happen.

Yes, "SIT" does exist somewhere......SPF=randyg </div></div>

Randy,

I wasn't talking about "SIT" in the above posts and references. We're talking about spin transferred from CB to OB, which I guess you could call "SIS" (spin-induced-spin) if you need an acronymn /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

SIS exists - easy to see - but was adamantly denied in the referenced thread from December 2006.

How transferred spin affects rebound off the cushion is an extension of this concept. I'll argue that it is significant, and I utilize it often on banks when I need to somewhat uncorrellate pocketing the shot from OB-rail approach angle and speed.

Many who deny this effect probably use it anyway, without realizing it. Think of using a little outside to keep the angle "natural" when shooting a one-diamond bank a little firmly. Anyone who pockets this shot is proving my point about significance.

That other bearded guy seems to agree - I just read his book.

SpiderMan

BCA Master Instr
07-20-2008, 01:36 PM
SpiderMan: I was aware that you meant SIS. I agree 100%. The greater the angle the less the effect. The sgorter angle is dramatic!....SPF=randyg

John in NH
07-20-2008, 05:40 PM
The best players will look at the object ball.

Good luck,

John

John in NH
07-20-2008, 05:59 PM
Hi Mac,

This is a no brainer, you should be looking at the object ball last to determine the direction of the shot, looking at the cueball should determine the position of the cue ball for the next shot, it's that simple.

Good luck,

John