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Bambu
07-18-2008, 08:59 AM
The last look post reminds me of a different bad habit I have. I never read or heard of anything on where to look after your shot. Me, I tend to look at the cueball. It may seem irrelevant because the shot is over, but if you do that you wont be able to see your object ball. Rather than assuming the object ball is going in, I think its best to watch it. If you dont, you might find yourself wondering how you missed(over/undercut). And its not always obvious, either. It all happens pretty fast, and we have all seen that the harder shots can jar out in strange ways. Changes dont come easily for me, so I'm still working on getting this right. I wonder if anyone else has similar issues or opinions, so any input is appreciated.

1poolfan
07-18-2008, 09:25 AM
That doesn't make sense. The laws of physics cannot be changed. These laws state that if an object ball is struck at an exact spot you want, the OB will be forced to go on exactly the tangent line. Minus of course any spin, dirt on the balls and other minor stuff. The OB cannot on-its-own decide on a new path. The pocket and/or other balls just get in the way of the ball's path.

If you do not see where you hit the object ball, you will never know where you hit it. Even if you make it, you still will not have your brain 'learn' how to do it correctly. It will be 'hit and miss' forever. Isn't that why many people seem to be so inconsistent in their play. How would you like to learn how to play so that you always play perfectly, just like walk perfectly every day?

Eric.
07-18-2008, 09:40 AM
On the cute waitress.


Eric >lech

Bambu
07-18-2008, 09:46 AM
You kind of lost me. Maybe I didnt phrase that too well, but I'm not talking about changing the laws of physics, or curving object balls. I'm talking about where you look when the shot is over, nothing more. The answer should be either the path of the cueball, or the object ball(because it can rarely be both).

BCA Master Instr
07-18-2008, 09:54 AM
Quite simple. I have trained myself to check my cue tip after every shot. The tip should always appear in the same place when a perfect stroke was executed in my Standard Operating Process.

This allows me to understand the causes of every shot. Alignment and Delivery issues are answered immediately.....SPF=randyg

1poolfan
07-18-2008, 10:01 AM
Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant. Let me try again.

When the shot is 'over', what difference could it possibly make?

When the shot is truly over, you begin your pre-shot routine for the next shot or you sit down. Is there some other time period that I am missing?

JoeW
07-18-2008, 10:05 AM
In the past I would use what I called a 9 inch nail through the OB and I would watch the OB roll down this line after the hit. However, an analysis of my misses leads me to the conclusion that my right hand (I shoot right handed) tends to track with my eye. I use a rile shooter’s approach to aiming. I found a tendency to steer the cue stick along the path of the OB travel. At this point I decided to “watch the hit” as my defined shooting routine.

There is nothing I can do about what happens to the OB or the CB but I can learn about what I did right or wrong by watching the CB line of travel and the hit. Was it my stroke or my aim, did I get deflection, etc. Now I watch the CB roll down the intended line through the center of the balls and then where it strikes the OB. My intent is that I must see the hit well enough to have an instant replay in my head. This means that I usually do not have enough time to watch the balls roll after the hit as my mind is busy "recording." Interestingly, this approach also retains much information about stance and stroke. Now I often can do an instant replay and I have found that I sometimes can “see” that my stance or stroke was incorrect as well as the reason the CB did not travel as intended.

I guess I have played enough pool (and so have you) that later when I look at the real world results I can pretty much tell which side of the pocket I went into or hit if it was a miss. Of course the resulting CB position tells me how well I did on my positional attempt so there is no need to watch the CB except during practice when I am attempting to learn how to make the CB move after contact.

I think that much of this has to do with one's intentions during the shot making. The rest seems to take care of itself and I know that I often see the results in my peripheral vision.

Bambu
07-18-2008, 10:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite simple. I have trained myself to check my cue tip after every shot. The tip should always appear in the same place when a perfect stroke was executed in my Standard Operating Process.

This allows me to understand the causes of every shot. Alignment and Delivery issues are answered immediately.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

Thats a good point, but some shots are missed even with a perfect stroke. Sometimes you feel like you hit it great, but still missed. What I mean is, lots of shots are missed based upon judgment alone(mostly the long distance ones).

1poolfan
07-18-2008, 10:17 AM
Here's a new idea that may stir some debate.

We don't actually 'learn' anything while playing the game. Why? Because knowledge does not affect our skill. Which is why we can become very knowledgeable about many games, but we cannot perform them very well. This is a persistent, and in my opinion, useless task. You cannot alter your 'skill' with knowledge. Skill is only altered by practice not by playing. Doesn't that make sense, since many people put in hours of practice and never seem to make 'real' progress?

The reason is simple. Skill cannot be changed while it is being performed at normal speed i.e.: playing. The only way to change 'skill' is by performing it at a very slow speed. There is an exact speed at which the 'skill' takes over and resorts to its pre-conditioned path. The reason for practice is the change some aspect of what we are doing. If you do not make a change then you are only practicing the same skill you have. That is not change that is re-enforcement.

JoeW
07-18-2008, 10:28 AM
There is a “trick” I have recently found that has raised my pocketing ability substantially. It is too soon to know the exact result yet as I just stumbled on this a few days ago. But it would appear that where I was running 5- 6 balls in 8-Ball, I now run 7 and often run out.

I have not seen this idea published anywhere so as far as I know it is original with me. Perhaps I read it someplace and re-invented the wheel, I just don’t know.

Anyway, It seems that everything I have read about drawing lines, ghost balls, etc always seem to imply a line on the table that the CB and OB roll down. While this is true, it is not how one should sight.

Sighting should be through the center of the balls. At one time I would imagine lines on the table and attempt to send the CB an OB down these lines. It occurred to me that perhaps it would be better to sight through the center of the ball. Now I imagine a line or a piece of sewing thread (or fishing line if you will) through the centers of the balls. These are the lines I construct in my head and the CB line of travel that I track before during and after the shot. It may be because I am simply using a new technique (the Hawthorne effect) but I don’t think so. I have begun to place difficult cut shots into the center of the pocket as I do with straight in or simple cut shots. The new threads through the centers of the balls also helps with the instant replay idea mentioned above and for some unknown reason, I can see the lines better.

JoeW
07-18-2008, 10:41 AM
I agree and disagree with the idea that we do not learn while exercising a skill that we know. During the exercise process there is feedback (you did or did not make a mistake). If no mistake was made then I agree it is reinforcement for a learned behavior. However, the reinforcement is used by the mind to solidify the gains. In once sense the memory trace is now relatively more “fixed” than it was. This is an element of learning but may be more technical than you were implying.

On the other hand, the negative feedback from a missed shot implies that a change in behavior is needed. This is indeed learning to adjust one’s approach to accommodate to the new situation. This is learning to “refine” one’s skill and is part of the definition of learning.

In the sense that practicing the same things over and over does not contribute to the improvement of one’s game I suggest that the mind is highly malleable. The fine motor coordination required to play at the top of one’s game needs to be practiced on a regular basis to insure that learned memory traces do not weaken and get used by some other function.

I agree that to advance one’s game as in any field of endeavor, further study is always warranted.

BTW, it is reasonably well accepted in psychology that knowledge does effect one's skill. However, some people have more latent talent than others.

1poolfan
07-18-2008, 12:12 PM
There are a few minor points that are missing I believe. First, negative feedback is not productive to changing a skill, except for certain situations. This may sound backward but think about this. If you are performing a skill and doing it wrong, then you have just practiced it incorrectly. The only way for you to change your skill is to perform the action exactly the way you want it done. Then you must repeat this enough times for the 'skill' to change. This does take time and not only that but since you are probably going to play in between times, your old 'skill' will kick in. This is a backward step in the learning process but generally no one is going to not play for a long period so we have to live with that fact.

When does negative feedback work? When there is pain involved. For instance, if you hurt your foot, you will immediately change your skill at walking to remove the pressure on that foot. But this type of change is not practical for learning but, none the less, does work.

Until you change the skill, then what you know is only knowledge. You can easily see this every time you play when someone tells a player; they need to 'stay down'. This is absolutely useless because it is only knowledge and there is no way for the person to change this behavior on-the-fly. It is only through practice that you can learn to stay down, but not only practice but practice that must be done exactly the way you want. If you practice and only do it right seven out of ten times, then you are still practicing it wrong.

This really shows up when a person is under pressure and affects them at the worst possible moment.

Deeman3
07-18-2008, 12:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1poolfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

We don't actually 'learn' anything while playing the game. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Chopstick, Spiderman, everyone...

That's where we all went wrong! We thought we were learning to shoot pool all those thousands of hours when I told you, we'd learn much more by not playing, by drinking and chasing skirts.

How could I have ever listened to you guys? You ruined my life as well as my pool game. After I come back as a blond gal. I am going to stay away from the pool tables so much I may win a national title. Sign me up for this guy's school! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sorry, could not help myself.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif my bad. </span>

Fran Crimi
07-18-2008, 01:03 PM
Yes, if you take it literally, what you say is true, but the process of 'what you're looking at afterward' is something that could very easily start prior to the cue tip striking the cue ball if you fall into a bad habit. For example: If the player finds himself looking at the pocket after the shot is over, then there is a possibility that he shifted his vision to the pocket just prior to impact.

I try to encourage players to continue to look at the place where the object ball used to be before the cue ball hit it for just a second or two longer. I find that doing that helps to avoid the common act of picking one's eyes up too early, namely before impact. Once your eyes move away from the target, if you haven't shot yet, you've lost the shot, and it then becomes a matter of luck as to whether or not you'll pocket the ball.

Fran

Deeman3
07-18-2008, 01:12 PM
Fran:

Way back in the 1970's we did a little work on shooting with our eyes closed, then had someone hold up a sheet of paper right after we had made our third practice stroke. There was almost no difference in the potting percentage. This might mean it makes absolutely no difference the last place you look as long as you don't move or change your stroke.

JoeW
07-18-2008, 01:20 PM
If your intent is to improve your play then when you do something wrong, your mind seeks a different solution. The negative feedback is the stimulus to change your behavior.

Next time, if you correct your behavior, you have lerned something. Punishment (missing the shot) stops the behavior. This is the primary effect of pain or punishment.

A person who has learned to "stay down" on the shot may, because of other factors, not remember to stay down on a shot. A by-stander, such as in a league match, reminds the player that they are missing because they are not staying down on the shot. The player then learns (in the sense of social learning) to emphasize what they already know and their match play improves.

I think we have all seen this happen more than once. Our friend tells us what was wrong and we learn to change our behavior because of the reminder and the negative feedback.

Enough of the technical stuff. This is turning into to a semantic discussion and it is not worth our time. I "see" what you mean and that is good enough. In the sense that you are using the terms, you are correct.

bataisbest
07-18-2008, 02:22 PM
I tend to look at the object ball after the shot to see if it is going in and to know if I am hitting it on the right spot as well. I also will glance over at the cue ball to see if it is going to the desired spot on the table that I wanted it to go for position on the next shot. Also, part of knowing if I over or under stroked it and what if any english I should /should not have used.

Bambu
07-18-2008, 02:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the past I would use what I called a 9 inch nail through the OB and I would watch the OB roll down this line after the hit. However, an analysis of my misses leads me to the conclusion that my right hand (I shoot right handed) tends to track with my eye. I use a rile shooter’s approach to aiming. I found a tendency to steer the cue stick along the path of the OB travel. At this point I decided to “watch the hit” as my defined shooting routine.

There is nothing I can do about what happens to the OB or the CB but I can learn about what I did right or wrong by watching the CB line of travel and the hit. Was it my stroke or my aim, did I get deflection, etc. Now I watch the CB roll down the intended line through the center of the balls and then where it strikes the OB. My intent is that I must see the hit well enough to have an instant replay in my head. This means that I usually do not have enough time to watch the balls roll after the hit as my mind is busy "recording." Interestingly, this approach also retains much information about stance and stroke. Now I often can do an instant replay and I have found that I sometimes can “see” that my stance or stroke was incorrect as well as the reason the CB did not travel as intended.

I guess I have played enough pool (and so have you) that later when I look at the real world results I can pretty much tell which side of the pocket I went into or hit if it was a miss. Of course the resulting CB position tells me how well I did on my positional attempt so there is no need to watch the CB except during practice when I am attempting to learn how to make the CB move after contact.

I think that much of this has to do with one's intentions during the shot making. The rest seems to take care of itself and I know that I often see the results in my peripheral vision.
</div></div>

Thanks Joe. I watch the contact too, but after the hit my eyes follow the cue ball. There is alot to be learned from the cueball path, and thats what I usually do. But sometimes on a miss I find myself turning to my opponent to figure out what rail the object ball hit first. He's a nice guy and all, but I dont like relying on others if I dont have to.

BCA Master Instr
07-18-2008, 03:10 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite simple. I have trained myself to check my cue tip after every shot. The tip should always appear in the same place when a perfect stroke was executed in my Standard Operating Process.

This allows me to understand the causes of every shot. Alignment and Delivery issues are answered immediately.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

Thats a good point, but some shots are missed even with a perfect stroke. Sometimes you feel like you hit it great, but still missed. What I mean is, lots of shots are missed based upon judgment alone(mostly the long distance ones).
</div></div>

SORRY, BUT: The only two ways one can miss a shot is Alignment or Dilevery error.....SPF=randyg

Fran Crimi
07-18-2008, 04:09 PM
I believe it. But given the choice to shoot with your eyes on or off the shot, which would you pick?

Fran

Fran Crimi
07-18-2008, 04:18 PM
Joe, are you responding to my post or somebody elses?

Fran

JoeW
07-18-2008, 04:23 PM
Some one else. But I like talking with you!

Bambu
07-18-2008, 04:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite simple. I have trained myself to check my cue tip after every shot. The tip should always appear in the same place when a perfect stroke was executed in my Standard Operating Process.

This allows me to understand the causes of every shot. Alignment and Delivery issues are answered immediately.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

Thats a good point, but some shots are missed even with a perfect stroke. Sometimes you feel like you hit it great, but still missed. What I mean is, lots of shots are missed based upon judgment alone(mostly the long distance ones).
</div></div>

SORRY, BUT: The only two ways one can miss a shot is Alignment or Dilevery error.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

With all due respect, I have to disagree with that. Its not hard to misjudge a shot before the attempt. The judgment becomes more important when using english, but also on tough cut shots. What if you miss due to too much/little swerve or deflection because you used the wrong amount of english? (As in dam, I shoulda used more right spin, or too much enough left.) I could be wrong, it wouldnt be the first time....but thats how I see it.

BCA Master Instr
07-18-2008, 05:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite simple. I have trained myself to check my cue tip after every shot. The tip should always appear in the same place when a perfect stroke was executed in my Standard Operating Process.

This allows me to understand the causes of every shot. Alignment and Delivery issues are answered immediately.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

Thats a good point, but some shots are missed even with a perfect stroke. Sometimes you feel like you hit it great, but still missed. What I mean is, lots of shots are missed based upon judgment alone(mostly the long distance ones).
</div></div>

SORRY, BUT: The only two ways one can miss a shot is Alignment or Dilevery error.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

With all due respect, I have to disagree with that. Its not hard to misjudge a shot before the attempt. The judgment becomes more important when using english, but also on tough cut shots. What if you miss due to too much/little swerve or deflection because you used the wrong amount of english? (As in dam, I shoulda used more right spin, or too much enough left.) I could be wrong, it wouldnt be the first time....but thats how I see it. </div></div>

So you're saying that you mis-aligned the shot??..SPF=randyg

Bambu
07-18-2008, 06:23 PM
When you say mis-align, do you mean squaring up to the shot crooked, or do you mean only on the final stroke? I'm saying that its possible to hit where you wanted to, and still miss. There are alot of things to compensate for, so I dont see why misjudgment before the shot should be out of the question as a reason for a miss. If the judgment were automatic, hitting power shots with english would be easier. Even with no english, pocketing hard, long distance shots is not as simple as creating a straight cue ball path.

av84fun
07-18-2008, 11:17 PM
Randy, I almost agree with you fully but not quite. Shots can and are missed in spite of perfect alignment and delivery due to chalk marks on the balls...or powder or hand oil etc. but especially chalk.

Jack Koehler has written that chalk can cause a departure angle that is off by several degrees...plenty to cause misses. When pros get that "deer in the headlights" look on their faces when they miss fairly easy shots, it's a good bet that chalk is the culprit.

Regards,
Jim
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite simple. I have trained myself to check my cue tip after every shot. The tip should always appear in the same place when a perfect stroke was executed in my Standard Operating Process.

This allows me to understand the causes of every shot. Alignment and Delivery issues are answered immediately.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

Thats a good point, but some shots are missed even with a perfect stroke. Sometimes you feel like you hit it great, but still missed. What I mean is, lots of shots are missed based upon judgment alone(mostly the long distance ones).
</div></div>

SORRY, BUT: The only two ways one can miss a shot is Alignment or Dilevery error.....SPF=randyg </div></div>

BCA Master Instr
07-19-2008, 05:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy, I almost agree with you fully but not quite. Shots can and are missed in spite of perfect alignment and delivery due to chalk marks on the balls...or powder or hand oil etc. but especially chalk.

Jack Koehler has written that chalk can cause a departure angle that is off by several degrees...plenty to cause misses. When pros get that "deer in the headlights" look on their faces when they miss fairly easy shots, it's a good bet that chalk is the culprit.

Regards,
Jim
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite simple. I have trained myself to check my cue tip after every shot. The tip should always appear in the same place when a perfect stroke was executed in my Standard Operating Process.

This allows me to understand the causes of every shot. Alignment and Delivery issues are answered immediately.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

Thats a good point, but some shots are missed even with a perfect stroke. Sometimes you feel like you hit it great, but still missed. What I mean is, lots of shots are missed based upon judgment alone(mostly the long distance ones).
</div></div>

SORRY, BUT: The only two ways one can miss a shot is Alignment or Dilevery error.....SPF=randyg </div></div> </div></div>


Great point av84fun. Alignment, Delivery and an Act of Nature....SPF=randyg

pooltchr
07-19-2008, 06:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Great point av84fun. Alignment, Delivery and an Act of Nature....SPF=randyg </div></div>

Well, since we only have control over two of the three, those would seem to be the obvious ones to focus our attention on. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
Steve

Rich R.
07-19-2008, 06:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy, I almost agree with you fully but not quite. Shots can and are missed in spite of perfect alignment and delivery due to chalk marks on the balls...or powder or hand oil etc. but especially chalk.

Jack Koehler has written that chalk can cause a departure angle that is off by several degrees...plenty to cause misses. When pros get that "deer in the headlights" look on their faces when they miss fairly easy shots, it's a good bet that chalk is the culprit.

Regards,
Jim
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCA Master Instr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite simple. I have trained myself to check my cue tip after every shot. The tip should always appear in the same place when a perfect stroke was executed in my Standard Operating Process.

This allows me to understand the causes of every shot. Alignment and Delivery issues are answered immediately.....SPF=randyg</div></div>

Thats a good point, but some shots are missed even with a perfect stroke. Sometimes you feel like you hit it great, but still missed. What I mean is, lots of shots are missed based upon judgment alone(mostly the long distance ones).
</div></div>

SORRY, BUT: The only two ways one can miss a shot is Alignment or Dilevery error.....SPF=randyg </div></div> </div></div>


Great point av84fun. Alignment, Delivery and an Act of Nature....SPF=randyg </div></div>
Mother Nature must really hate me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Fran Crimi
07-19-2008, 09:52 AM
DITTO! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

1Time
07-19-2008, 02:40 PM
Once I've struck a shot and sensed it is on target, my eyes usually seek out and follow the path of the cue ball. This is more common with better pool players who already "know" where the object ball is going and are more so concerned with the other major aspect of the shot, where the cue ball is going.

Bambu
07-19-2008, 10:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bataisbest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tend to look at the object ball after the shot to see if it is going in and to know if I am hitting it on the right spot as well. I also will glance over at the cue ball to see if it is going to the desired spot on the table that I wanted it to go for position on the next shot. Also, part of knowing if I over or under stroked it and what if any english I should /should not have used. </div></div>

Thanks batia, that is pretty much what I am talking about.

BCA Master Instr
07-20-2008, 05:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bataisbest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tend to look at the object ball after the shot to see if it is going in and to know if I am hitting it on the right spot as well. I also will glance over at the cue ball to see if it is going to the desired spot on the table that I wanted it to go for position on the next shot. Also, part of knowing if I over or under stroked it and what if any english I should /should not have used. </div></div>

Thanks batia, that is pretty much what I am talking about. </div></div>

What a great answer....SPF=randyg

zombiemodder
07-20-2008, 06:22 AM
I agree 100%.

1Time
07-20-2008, 09:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zombiemodder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree 100%. </div></div>
x2, great answer.

Bambu
07-20-2008, 10:00 AM
Instead of poking fun at it, why not say why you think its wrong?

BCA Master Instr
07-20-2008, 01:38 PM
I think 3 of us just said it was perfect. At least I did....SPF=randyg

Bambu
07-20-2008, 03:50 PM
Sorry, I thought you were just being sarcastic. I asked if you look at the cue ball or the object ball after a shot, and you say the cue tip. Then you say a shot can only missed by a misalignment or delivery error, and not by pre judging the shot poorly(but dont really say why). But then batia says something similar to what I have, and you agree. Not arguing, just confused.

1Time
07-20-2008, 04:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Instead of poking fun at it, why not say why you think its wrong? </div></div>
Not my style. If I thought it was wrong, I would have just said so and perhaps would have explained why.

Here's what bataisbest posted...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bataisbest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tend to look at the object ball after the shot to see if it is going in and to know if I am hitting it on the right spot as well. I also will glance over at the cue ball to see if it is going to the desired spot on the table that I wanted it to go for position on the next shot. Also, part of knowing if I over or under stroked it and what if any english I should /should not have used. </div></div>
And here's what I later posted before reading bataisbest's post and complimenting it...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once I've struck a shot and sensed it is on target, my eyes usually seek out and follow the path of the cue ball. This is more common with better pool players who already "know" where the object ball is going and are more so concerned with the other major aspect of the shot, where the cue ball is going. </div></div>
If reading these two posts, it should be obvious our opinions are in agreement. So I assume you didn't read my post before accusing me of poking fun at bataisbest's opinion. That shows a little bias on your part; don't you think?

1Time
07-20-2008, 04:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not arguing, just confused. </div></div>
OK, apparently I am confused too as I thought you had addressed me. Funny how these boards work sometimes.

Bambu
07-20-2008, 04:06 PM
I was really only answering BCAMaster, I thought it was a sarcastic answer.

1Time
07-20-2008, 04:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was really only answering BCAMaster, I thought it was a sarcastic answer. </div></div>

Right, sorry, my bad.

Bambu
07-20-2008, 04:16 PM
no biggie man.

Rich R.
07-20-2008, 08:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, I thought you were just being sarcastic. I asked if you look at the cue ball or the object ball after a shot, and you say the cue tip. Then you say a shot can only missed by a misalignment or delivery error, and not by pre judging the shot poorly(but dont really say why). But then batia says something similar to what I have, and you agree. Not arguing, just confused. </div></div>
If you miss a shot by "pre judging the shot poorly", I have to assume you are saying you misjudged, or "misaligned" the shot.
If you mean something else, please explain.

Bambu
07-20-2008, 08:49 PM
I didnt realize misjudged meant misaligned, my bad. Thanks Rich. Sorry BCA master, I get it now.

pooltchr
07-21-2008, 04:29 AM
Think of it like this. If you are aiming at the correct target, and your stroke allows you to deliver the cue ball to that spot, you should make the shot. If you don't, something was wrong with one of those two options.
Steve

Rich R.
07-21-2008, 07:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didnt realize misjudged meant misaligned, my bad. Thanks Rich. Sorry BCA master, I get it now. </div></div>
If my assumption was wrong, please feel free to explain.

The way I look at it, if you "misjudge" a shot, you are aiming at the wrong spot. Assuming you deliver the cue correctly, you will still miss the shot. In the end, you "misjudged" the alignment, therefore, you were "misaligned".
Does this make sense to anyone but me? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Bambu
07-21-2008, 08:12 AM
I wasnt being fecicious, Rich. I just never heard the term misalign used in a pool sense, so I got confused, bambuzelled even.

Bambu
07-21-2008, 08:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pooltchr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think of it like this. If you are aiming at the correct target, and your stroke allows you to deliver the cue ball to that spot, you should make the shot. If you don't, something was wrong with one of those two options.
Steve</div></div>

Yes pooltchr, absolutely. But getting back to the topic, I have been trying to get a look at the object ball path after a shot, instead of first looking at the cue ball. Wait until the ob goes in or hits a rail, then look at the cue ball. But Randy made a good point, to look at your cue tip first. I dont usually do that, but it sounds like a good idea. Maybe a quick look at the tip, then the object ball path, then the cue ball if time allows?

JoeW
07-21-2008, 08:51 AM
I have been paying more attention to what I look at during and after the shot. I find that my pocketing ability improves when.

1. I draw a line through the center of the OB to the pocket and then reverse the trace of this line to find the contact point.

2. I slowly draw a line from the OB contact point to the CB center. Adjust as needed for english, etc.

3. During the stroke I try (not always successful as it is not yet engrained) to look at the alignement to the OB from the rear stroking position.

4. I look at the tip when the tip is near the CB.

5. Pause and check everything on the final back stroke.

6. I watch through center of the CB as it travels down the intended line.This allows me to see swerve, deflection, etc.

7. I "see" and mentally record the hit on the OB.

8. If there is time, I look up and watch the CB line of travel to the rail. This is only possible on longer shots.

Suggestions for a better way would be helpful.

Bambu
07-21-2008, 09:06 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been paying more attention to what I look at during and after the shot. I find that my pocketing ability improves when.

1. I draw a line through the center of the OB to the pocket and then reverse the trace of this line to find the contact point.

2. I slowly draw a line from the OB contact point to the CB center. Adjust as needed for english, etc.

3. During the stroke I try (not always successful as it is not yet engrained) to look at the alignement to the OB from the rear stroking position.

4. I look at the tip when the tip is near the CB.

5. Pause and check everything on the final back stroke.

6. I watch through center of the CB as it travels down the intended line.This allows me to see swerve, deflection, etc.

7. I "see" and mentally record the hit on the OB.

8. If there is time, I look up and watch the CB line of travel to the rail. This is only possible on longer shots.

Suggestions for a better way would be helpful.

</div></div>

Thanks,Joe. I'm was really talking about what happens when the shot is over, but I still have to question #2 from your list.

2. I slowly draw a line from the OB contact point to the CB center. Adjust as needed for english, etc.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if you only use the center of the cue ball for contact, you should only have success for straight in shots. Any cut involved, and you should be using a different portion of the cue ball to make contact. The greater the cut, the smaller the portion of the cue ball that should be making contact.

1Time
07-22-2008, 03:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich R.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The way I look at it, if you "misjudge" a shot, you are aiming at the wrong spot. Assuming you deliver the cue correctly, you will still miss the shot. In the end, you "misjudged" the alignment, therefore, you were "misaligned".
Does this make sense to anyone but me? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif </div></div>
Yes, makes perfect sense.

1Time
07-22-2008, 04:05 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Suggestions for a better way would be helpful.</div></div>
JoeW, start your own thread with the steps you use and I will be glad to post suggestions.

av84fun
07-24-2008, 02:35 AM
Joe, since you have already posted your steps, I'll be happy to comment on them here.

1. I draw a line through the center of the OB to the pocket and then reverse the trace of this line to find the contact point.

THAT'S FINE GIVEN YOUR NEXT COMMENT ON THE NEED TO "ADJUST AS NEEDED FOR ENGLISH." BUT I WOULD PREFER THE STATEMENT...ADJUST THE CP TO ACCOUNT FOR CIT OR USE ENGLISH TO OFFSET CIT WHILE USING THE GEOMETRIC CP...UNLESS THE ENGLISH USED TO OFFSET CIT WILL CAUSE APPRECIABLE SQUIRT/SWERVE IN WHICH CASE AN ADJUSTED CP MUST BE ADOPTED.


2. I slowly draw a line from the OB contact point to the CB center. Adjust as needed for english, etc.

3. During the stroke I try (not always successful as it is not yet engrained) to look at the alignement to the OB from the rear stroking position.

NOT SURE I FULLY UNDERSTAND YOU BUT IHMO THE ONLY THING THE EYES SHOULD BE DOING IS TO SHIFT DIRECT FOCUS IN A STANDARD, REPEATING PATTERN, FROM THE TIP-TO-CB TARGET TO THE POINT OF AIM ON THE OB I.E. THE POINT THAT THE TIP IS AIMING AT.

SOME PLAYERS IMAGINE A LINE ON THE CLOTH THAT THE SHAFT SHOULD TRACK OVER BUT THEY USE THEIR PERIPHERAL VISION FOR THAT NOT THEIR DIRECT FOCUS.

4. I look at the tip when the tip is near the CB.

YES!

5. Pause and check everything on the final back stroke.

I THINK "CHECK EVERYTHING" IS WAY TOO BROAD. THE GREATEST VALUE OF A DISTINCT PAUSE AT THE BACK IS TO A) GUARANTEE THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN A FULL BACKSTROKE AND NOT "SHORT STROKE" WHICH ALMOST GUARANTEES A JERKY TRANSITION AND B) TO REGAIN INTENSE, DIRECT FOCUS ON THE POINT OF AIM AND C) TO RELAX AND PREPARE FOR A SMOOTH DEFINATELY ACCELERATING FORWARD STROKE.

6. I watch through center of the CB as it travels down the intended line.This allows me to see swerve, deflection, etc.

TO ME, THAT IS A VAGUE PROCEDURE. SQWERVE IS GOING TO BE WHAT IT IS GOING TO BE AND THOSE FACTORS MUST HAVE BEEN PLANNED FOR BEFORE EVEN BENDING DOWN OVER THE SHOT. IMHO THE BEST USE OF THE EYES AFTER CB CONTACT IS TO IMAGINE THAT YOU ARE CONTINUING THE SHAFT TRAVEL SO AS TO HAVE THE TIP "REACH FORWARD" AND TOUCH THE POINT OF AIM ON THE OB.

EXCEPT FOR WORLD RECORD SHOT SPEED, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO "REACH OUT AND TOUCH" THE POINT OF AIM BEFORE THE OB MOVES AND WILL KNOW IF YOU HAVE MADE THE SHOT OR COMMITTED A STROKE ERROR BEFORE THE OB EVER MOVES.

7. I "see" and mentally record the hit on the OB.

YES.

8. If there is time, I look up and watch the CB line of travel to the rail. This is only possible on longer shots.

OK FOR PRACTICE INTENDED TO CONCENTRATE ON HONING YOUR CB DEPARTURE PATH SKILLS BUT WHEN ACTUALLY PLAYING I WOULD AVOID THAT TACTIC. INSTEAD STAY FULLY DOWN ON THE SHOT...ROCK SOLID...AND WATCH THE OB GO IN THE HOLE...AND TAKE NOTE OF WHERE IN WENT IN. IF YOU AIMED DEAD CENTER, DID IT GO DEAD CENTER OR DID YOU UNINTENTIONALL CHEAT THE POCKET LEFT OR RIGHT ETC.?

Hope the above will be helpful.

Regards,
Jim

1Time
07-28-2008, 01:40 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: av84fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hope the above will be helpful.</div></div>
I hope JoeW found your post helpful. I would consider it more helpful if you didn't type it all in CAPS. Thanks

JoeW
07-28-2008, 07:49 AM
Thanks Jim, I will have to think about your thoughtful advice.

JimS
07-28-2008, 05:54 PM
I watch both the ob and cb. I find that I switch back and forth from one to the other while they are in motion and until one or the other concludes it's movement.

Bambu
07-29-2008, 10:35 AM
Thanks, Jim. Do you always see where the object ball goes, or do you miss that sometimes because you were looking at the cue ball? That seems to be my problem lately, and I'm also still experimenting with looking at the tip. Its not easy looking at all 3, but I am starting to think the cue ball might be the least important.